Where Would Ms. Clinton Be Without Bill??

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

I was commenting to someone last night. Do you think that Hillary would be in the position she's in, if it were not for Bill? Would she be in this position if she had left and divorced Bill several years ago?

Further...without Bill, would she even be Senator Clinton?

To me, she represents this "entitlement." Like she's somehow now "Entitled" to lead our country. Because she was married to Bill, and stood by her man, she suddenly Deserves this.

I don't want to hear about this and that. What she's done, and how much she cares for Democrats. That's BS. She'd be NOTHING without being married to a former President, who had high approval ratings for the most part.

Aside from perhaps Kucinich and Edwards, I'd say most of the candidates want the title for THEMSELVES. Not for the good of the country. I think one of the reasons Gore is so favored, is that he doesn't appear to WANT the position. He's humble and somewhat self depricating.

With all campaigning and money raising going on, you almost forget that candidates like Clinton & Obama actually have jobs they should be doing. Maybe that would be better for the country, than exercising their ego's 24/7 on the campaign trail in Iowa & New Hampshire.

[hlthe2b]

1. sexist dribble.... and i'm not even a HRC supporter

:eyes:

[Annces]

8. Exactly

How do you it was not her who brought Bill to the White House for crying out loud.

[Le Taz Hot]

29. As one who has been involved in

the feminist movement from the early 70's, the OP is absolutely correct. She's accomplished NOTHING on her own. There was absolutely nothing stopping her from pursuing her own path but she latched onto Bill's and, because she stood by her man, was awarded a NY Senate seat and will be awarded the nomination. No, I'd say Hillary Clinton sets back women's rights by about 50 years.

[hlthe2b]

33. that's a form of militant feminism, I can do without

I happen to be a single female professional who had done everything on my own, but I do not judge HRC's accomplishment more harshly, just because she chose to marry. I'm glad she found a compatible life partner.

Geez, who's setting feminism back 50 years? I'd say it is THAT attitude.

[Le Taz Hot]

44. That's not what I said, but of course,

you know that. I said she's accomplished NOTHING on her own. Remember, when Bill met her she was a college Republican. Had she gone into politics she probably would have done so as a Republican, which is fine. I'd have a lot more respect for her. Instead, she changed her political affiliation (again, fine) and latched on to Bill's career and everything she has is a result of that.

[cuke]

147. That's not true

"when Bill met her she was a college Republican. Had she gone into politics she probably would have done so as a Republican, which is fine"

Wrong. HRC became a democrat while at Wellesley, an all-woman's college. She met Bill at Yale Law School AFTER she had become a liberal democrat


"she's accomplished NOTHING on her own"

She was a lawyer on the committee that was investigating Nixon.
She worked for several charities, focusing particularly on children's issues
She was on the board of The Legal Services Corp (ie Legal Aid)
She was a partner in Arkansas most prominent law firm
Worked for the ACLU monitoring a trial of Black Panthers

[hlthe2b]

155. Cuke, you are obviously quite accurate...

It amazes me that we have some who willfully misrepresent her record and deny her her accomplishments. I have no committed dog in this fight. She is not my first or second choice at this point. But, I won't allow such inaccurate or blatant sexist assessments, as has permeated this thread go unanswered. The motivation behind some of our (supposed "feminist") female DUers joining in, is incomprehensible. :shrug:

[mondo joe]

36. She was "awarded" a Senate seat? What do you get out of insulting the Demoratic

electorate of NY State?

[Le Taz Hot]

50. Yes, my dear, awarded.

And I have nothing but respect for the NY electorate. The fact is she had and still has The Machine behind her AND the Republicans ran weak candidates both times (coincidence?).

Look, I have respect for the California electorate as well but I still think the majority decision sucked. And the reason the Gropenator is where he is is because of the same Machine, except on the other side.

[mondo joe]

54. No, you have no respect for Democrats. You've insulted an entire state of NY Dems.

And your analogy is fallacious - I'm not talking about the entire state - I'm talking about JUST the Democrats. You know - the people who put for the Democratic nominee?

[Le Taz Hot]

73. I've stated my position quite clearly.

Just because you want to interject your own interpretation of what *I* mean doesn't make it so. And the people who put forth the Democratic nominee have nothing to do with the electorate -- save for manipulation. Surely you know this.

[mondo joe]

80. Yes, you've made your disdain for the Democratic base quite clear.

Thank you.

[Le Taz Hot]

86. Again, incorrect.

I have disdain for sheep posing as people. And you wouldn't know a Democratic base if it was posting directly to you.

[mondo joe]

93. Now that Democratic party of NY state are "sheep posing as people"?

Nice. :eyes:

[Le Taz Hot]

101. No, the Democratic Party of NY state

is an organization. I would think it would be overwhelmingly problematic to pose it as a sheep.

[mondo joe]

105. The Dem party of NY state is comprised of people - Democrats. You know, the people

you hold in disdain.

[Le Taz Hot]

110. That's not what you said.

And I thought we cleared up this disdain thing already. Anyway, you go ahead and do whatever it is that you normally do. I have a Medical Terminology test to study for.

[mondo joe]

111. Terminology? That ought to be good.

[Ewellian]

157. "The Machine"

The power of "The Machine" is impressive. They managed to give Rudy Giuliani prostate cancer so the Republicans would run a "weak" candidate against her. (coincidence?) :sarcasm:

[Le Taz Hot]

159. Oh, don't be silly.

The Machine is the very powerful, connected and monied corporate and political (in this case, Democratic) infrastructure that has influence over state parties, Congressional districts, the MSM and other organizations vital to elections.

But you're new here, so I'll cut you some slack and assume you weren't aware of the terms. Btw, welcome to DU. :hi:

[hedgehog]

151. As a New Yorker , I have to say that the party in this state is pathetic

The Democrats assume they have the city vote, and the Republicans assume they have the suburban and rural vote, and no one does anything to upset the apple cart. Some of the gerrymandering that goes on upstate is ludicrous. Upstaters assume that anyone running for statewide office will be from New York City.

Before Howard Dean took over, there were elections where the Republican congressman in my district ran unopposed. Down in Syracuse, the best the party could come up with one year was a nice woman who had had about 4 or 5 careers by the age of 35.

[ShortnFiery]

42. Too funny. We're radical feminists?!?

We who tolerated repeated *sexist* attacks breaking into careers within "a man's world." But not HRC who rode her husband's coat tails and used his power to propel herself to political royalty.

One of the highest complements that I had received from the wives of Marines within the Overseas Detachment that my husband commanded - was that I was not like MANY other officers' wives. Why? I never choose to wear his rank. I had my own career and interests going. Sure, I suited up in a formal and attended all the Command social Performances such as the yearly Marine Corps ball, but I did NOT try to run rough shod over the wives of the men at this overseas command.

Unlike most women, who thoughtfully have identities separate from their "established husband" HRC shamelessly used Bill's Presidency to angle in on power-play and influence many high level decisions. There are even suggestions that she initially wanted to be his Chief of Staff. :scared:

No, I hold little respect for women of political royalty ... women who use their husband's standing to consolidate power for themselves and then self-righteously weld it.

I'm no radical feminist, just a mere "feminist" who knows a pretender when she sees one. :shrug:

[hlthe2b]

53. Per post 31, you aren't a feminist BECAUSE you married

I call bullshit on all of this. Feminism is about choices, though some of our own have decided THEY should be the ones to choose what is right and wrong for ALL of us. :shrug:

And, I have made it through two doctoral programs without "benefit of a spouse", middle class family who struggled and whose parents died when I was young. So, I suppose I meet the criteria for ... whatever. But, I'm not so damned judgemental and to deny HRC's accomplishments even if she had options and help, most of us never will. To do so, when we NEVER do so for men, is SEXIST and bigoted.

[ShortnFiery]

65. That wasn't the point. It's USING the position of the spouse in the marriage for career benefit. n/t

[hlthe2b]

90. SO, she was supposed to divorce Bill before she ran?

Otherwise, her own role and qualifications would always be questioned :eyes:

[Le Taz Hot]

106. No, she was supposed to accomplish her success

on her own. Her role and qualifications are inexplicably tied to Bill's coattails.

[hlthe2b]

115. She had a life and career before she married..

That is the part some seem determined to ignore....

I don't support HRC, but this attack on a competent female candidate is so demeaning and sexist it belies belief that some of the most vocal attacks are coming from so-called "feminists." My last post (from one who ironically fits your strict mode of a true feminist, though not necessarily MINE)

[Le Taz Hot]

96. Me. A radical feminist.

Imagine that. Never been called that before. :eyes:

[Evergreen Emerald]

196. you are through the looking glass

where up is down and right is wrong and when women make it to power, it is on the coattails of their husbands.

Not one post asking where Bill would be without Hillary or where Obama would be without Michelle.

And you attempt to turn sexism upside down and backwards.

[Lochloosa]

146. Accomplished NOTHING on her own....Really!

1. Member of the National Honor Society

2. Served on the Board of Editors of Yale Law Review and Social Action

3. Advised the Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge and joined the impeachment inquiry staff advising the Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives.

And that was before she married Bill.......

4. Joined the faculty of the University of Arkansas Law School in 1975 and the Rose Law Firm in 1976.


5. In 1978, President Jimmy Carter appointed her to the board of the Legal Services Corporation

And that was before Bill was GOVENOR.

6. She chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee, co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, and served on the boards of the Arkansas Children's Hospital, Legal Services, and the Children's Defense Fund.


That was before Bill became President....

IMO She would have given him a run for his money in '92.




Hillary Diane Rodham, Dorothy and Hugh Rodham's first child, was born on October 26, 1947. Two brothers, Hugh and Tony, soon followed. Hillary's childhood in Park Ridge, Illinois, was happy and disciplined. She loved sports and her church, and was a member of the National Honor Society, and a student leader. Her parents encouraged her to study hard and to pursue any career that interested her.


As an undergraduate at Wellesley College, Hillary mixed academic excellence with school government. Speaking at graduation, she said, "The challenge now is to practice politics as the art of making what appears to be impossible, possible."

In 1969, Hillary entered Yale Law School, where she served on the Board of Editors of Yale Law Review and Social Action, interned with children's advocate Marian Wright Edelman, and met Bill Clinton. The President often recalls how they met in the library when she strode up to him and said, "If you're going to keep staring at me, I might as well introduce myself." The two were soon inseparable--partners in moot court, political campaigns, and matters of the heart.

After graduation, Hillary advised the Children's Defense Fund in Cambridge and joined the impeachment inquiry staff advising the Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives. After completing those responsibilities, she "followed her heart to Arkansas," where Bill had begun his political career.

They married in 1975. She joined the faculty of the University of Arkansas Law School in 1975 and the Rose Law Firm in 1976. In 1978, President Jimmy Carter appointed her to the board of the Legal Services Corporation, and Bill Clinton became governor of Arkansas. Their daughter, Chelsea, was born in 1980.

Hillary served as Arkansas's First Lady for 12 years, balancing family, law, and public service. She chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee, co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, and served on the boards of the Arkansas Children's Hospital, Legal Services, and the Children's Defense Fund.

As the nation's First Lady, Hillary continued to balance public service with private life. Her active role began in 1993 when the President asked her to chair the Task Force on National Health Care Reform. She continued to be a leading advocate for expanding health insurance coverage, ensuring children are properly immunized, and raising public awareness of health issues. She wrote a weekly newspaper column entitled "Talking It Over," which focused on her experiences as First Lady and her observations of women, children, and families she has met around the world. Her 1996 book It Takes a Village and Other Lessons Children Teach Us was a best seller, and she received a Grammy Award for her recording of it.

As First Lady, her public involvement with many activities sometimes led to controversy. Undeterred by critics, Hillary won many admirers for her staunch support for women around the world and her commitment to children's issues.

She was elected United States Senator from New York on November 7, 2000. She is the first First Lady elected to the United States Senate and the first woman elected statewide in New York.

[cynatnite]

195. How does Hillary set women's rights back by about 50 years?

That's a new one I haven't read before.

[Dawgs]

37. BS!! If the shoe was on the other foot we'd be saying the same thing.

I'm sick and tired of Hillary "supporters" using sex to ignore any legitimate argument.

[hlthe2b]

39. As a matter of fact you are wrong. I don't pre-judge

someone's qualifications based on their gender. Obviously, some here, do. She is not my candidate but, she is qualified. She obviously benefits from her marriage to WJC, but to say that is the basis for her qualification, is simply misogyny at its worst. No different from the Freeper's viewpoints, sadly.

[spotbird]

58. Either you're on the bus or you're off the bus

If Senator Clinton's status as President Clinton's wife is off limits, then so should be enhancement her resume by virtue of her status as First Lady.

Without her experience as Presidential wife her resume is rather weak for the office she seeks. A Capitol Hill Staffer, private practice lawyer, the board of a parasitic destructive corporation, then a term in the Senate. It surly doesn't put her head and shoulders above the crowd, but if that's the way you want her perceived, go with it. If it's not, then the question is fair.

[Yupster]

85. Not sexist dribble -- I'll take a shot at it

Of course no one knows how many different directions a life can take, but here's my view.

I have no doubt that Hillary Rodham would be extremely successful in 2007 had she not married Bill Clinton. I also have little doubt that she wouldn't be the favorite to win the presidency had she not met Bill Clinton either.

So what could she be? Congressperson or senator from Illinois? Maybe.

Partner in a major law firm? Probably. I have no doubt she'd be doing very well.

But wasn't she already a top young lawyer and in politics before she got married? Yes, she was in Washington, but her surprise (for a star Ivy Leaguer) flunking of the DC bar exam would have knocked her back a few steps as far as job opportunities went I believe. Instead of retaking the exam, she joined Bill in Arkansas.

But wasn't she one of the top young female lawyers in the country back then? Absolutely so lets look at where the other top young Ivy League female lawyers are today. That would be an interesting list to compile. I bet almost all of them are very, very successful. Two are senators currently (E Dole, K Hutchison), and Dole even briefly an for president.

Let's also look at other famous female firsts in elected government.

The first woman to sit as senator was Hattie Caraway of Arkansas in 1922. She was appointed when her husband died.

The first two women governors came 16 days from each other in 1925. Governor Nellie Ross of Wyoming took over when her husband died.

Texas first governor Miriam (Ma) Ferguson was elected in 1925. Her husband Jim (Pa) Ferguson had been governor but was impeached and removed from office in 1917, but was still quite popular with the voters. He decided to run again in 1924, but was not legally allowed too. Mrs. Ferguson then ran and won.

Maybe all three of these women were the most qualified people to take those jobs on their own and the fact that they were married to people who previously had the job was just coincidence. Maybe - but I doubt it. Maybe Hillary would be the favorite for President even if she had never met Bill. Maybe, but I doubt it.

I'll vote for Hillary happily, but I admit that I wish the first women president was someone who came up through politics without being married to someone who had the job first. That's kind of the old fashioned way to gain a big position. It's how Joan Collins got to be CEO of Coke (Pepsi?) by being married to the boss when he died.

But what are you going to do. No sense picking nits. I believe Hillary will be president and I'll be one of the 100 million voters helping her along.

[saracat]

150. It wasn't Joan Collins BTW.It was Joan ("don't f88ck with me fellas" ) Crawford and it was Pepsi.

[youthere]

119. Amen to that...

I have a lot of issues with Sen. Clinton myself, but this crap is getting ridiculous.

[ShortnFiery]

143. Beg your pardon? I believe the correct word is "drivel" for "dribble" is reserved for sippy cups?

But no, this is NOT a dig as I'm far from perfection myself.

Just a friendly point of order. ;) :hi:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. yes without bill she would NEVER have gotten that ivy league education

sexist crap

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. I believe she has her upper class parents to thank for that

unless she went to college on a scholarship.

[Frances]

41. Upper class parents?????

Where did you get that idea?

Have you read about her mother's life? I'll bet you had it much easier than Hillary's mother did. In fact, I'll bet 90% of DUers had it easier than Hillary's mother.

[ShortnFiery]

46. Yes, parents and relatives who freely promoted "the lie" that Hillary was named after the

famous Mountain Climber, "Sir Edmund Hillary." :thumbsdown:

But during her first lady tenure, HRC was cornered and forced to come clean that was a blatant lie used to promote her royal image.

There's your family values? :crazy:

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Her father was a business owner and she grew up in

an upscale suburban area. So yes, sounds like her parents were perfectly capable of paying her college tuition.

Have you ever seen the area where she grew up? I am willing to bet 90% of DUers don't live in neighborhoods that nice. Or with the per capita income as high.

[ElizabethDC]

107. She has said that her parents paid her college tuition, but she had to pay for all extras

herself, including books, etc. I believe she's said that she's had jobs since the age of 13. Also, her parents wouldn't pay for law school, so she had to take out loans and take care of that herself.

[mondo joe]

113. Don't you see? Anyone whose parents helped pay for college has no quaification to

run for office - they're not self made!

[Frances]

135. I was referring to Hillary's mother

who, as a child, was sent to live with her grandparents who didn't want her.

[proud2BlibKansan]

152. And I was referring to her parents

The point was made that Bill was not responsible for her ivy league education. I pointed out that her parents were responsible. I fail to see how her mother's childhood has anything to do with her parents paying for her to go to an ivy league school.

[mondo joe]

3. Why not ask: Where would Bill be without Hillary?

Hm?

[YOY]

14. Not a Hillary supporter and I agree 100%

He'd be a Senator in Arkansas still at best.

[ecstatic]

68. Exactly!!! I'm sure she advised and supported him every step of the way! nt

[Frances]

136. I agree

Hillary is super bright and super hard working. She gave up superb job offers to go and live in Arkansas with Bill.

I don't think that marriage should disqualify anyone from becoming president.

[Scout]

141. thank you, that is the better question, in my opinion n/t

[Ricki]

4. Yes, but

We all become inspired by those around us, so I don't think you can fault her for that. However, election reform would force them to prove themselves instead of relying on corporate donors. I think that's the real problem.

[Deep13]

5. Without Hillary, someone else would be #42. nt

[Romulox]

6. It's SEXIST to point out nepotism (when it benefits a woman)

:sarcasm:

[mondo joe]

9. Nepotism? Try to learn what words mean before you use them, please.

:eyes:

[Romulox]

12. You obviously weren't an English major!

Main Entry: nep·o·tism

Pronunciation: \ˈne-pə-ˌti-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: French népotisme, from Italian nepotismo, from nepote nephew, from Latin nepot-, nepos grandson, nephew — more at nephew
Date: 1670

: favoritism (as in appointment to a job) based on kinship

http://m-w.com/dictionary/nepotism

[sufrommich]

16. Has Bil appointed her President?

When did that happen?

[Romulox]

23. Bill appointed her to cabinet level duties during his presidency, yes...

Don't remember the 1993 Health Care Plan? :eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. which has to do with her election in ny how?

or her possibly winnning the presidential election.

as long as fair elections occur nepotism is not the problem.

[Romulox]

30. She was given the support of the party based on her family ties, that's how. nt

[spotbird]

64. We would want to remember that because?

It would be better for the campaign to focus on her successes, such as they are.

[Romulox]

81. Because it's an example of nepotism. I'm sorry that it's a painful memory...nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

102. No but the media has

[mondo joe]

17. And you're saying the electorate of NY elected her because of kinship?

?

[Romulox]

24. Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. In addition, she got the funding

and support of her party based on her last name.

[mondo joe]

27. Wow, such little respect for the Democratic party. Is that you Bill O'Reilly?

The Democratic voters don't even vote based on policy?

[Romulox]

32. LOL. Having lost the "dictionary wars", Mondo Joe turns to "with us or against us!"

Shine on, you crazy diamond!

:rofl:

[sufrommich]

45. I'm pretty sure you're the only poster here who believes

you won " the dictionary wars".

[mondo joe]

49. That's usually what the "dictionary wars" are about.

:-)

[ShortnFiery]

74. No, it's quite apparent HRC was promoted partially through "nepotism"

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. this would be true if bill clinton appointed her president, or someone appointed her president

because she was bills wife.

IF she is ELECTED president its not nepotism.

[Romulox]

26. No. Nepotism applies to jobs and privileges that fall short of the Presidency

Running Hillary because of her famous family is, in itself, a form of nepotism. She may be ELECTED to the presidency, but she was SELECTED as candidate based on her famous last name...

[Frances]

47. Are you thinking rationally?

Hillary was not selected for anything.

The voters of New York elected her senator twice.

IF she wins the nomination, she will have been elected by Democratic primary voters.

It's thread like this one that make me want to vote for her instead of either Obama or Edwards, which I was thinking of doing.

[Romulox]

56. You're right. * and HRC are the two most qualified individuals to be President

Their last names have nothing to do with it. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!!!



:silly:

[hlthe2b]

83. That you compare HRC with Bush* in terms of qualfications...

sort of says it all. .. :eyes:

[Romulox]

87. Both benefit from famous families. Sorry that this (accurate) comparison makes you uncomfortable...

[hlthe2b]

100. And by that "logic" then no one from a family history of privilege

could possibly be more qualified than another. It is family privilege ONLY that matters.... :eyes:

I suspect you are very young, but as has been repeatedly pointed out, you need to think through your arguments quite a bit more... I have to move on to work, but perhaps others will help a bit.

[Romulox]

109. What a bizarre logic. We must ignore nepotism lest a qualified candidate slip through our fingers.

I think that the danger of incompetent hereditary dynasties "passing the Presidency around like a party joint," is much more acute than the relatively minor possibility that someone named either "Bush" or "Clinton" is really the most qualified to be President among 300,000,000 US citizens.

And I won't say what you sound like! :rofl:

[hlthe2b]

121. Can you possibly keep to the argument at hand

You directly stated that HRC and Bush* are no different in terms of qualfications. I don't support her because of her positions, but she is incredibly intelligent and well educated (and well qualified) in her own right. What, prey tell, did Bush* ever do to make him qualified?



Well, enjoy your beer with the brain-dead Frat boy.. I'd warn against taking that level of logic into the intellectual arena with HRC. The result, would not be pretty.

[Romulox]

124. No, I said both * and HRC benefit from nepotism

That's a significantly different proposition from, "HRC and Bush* are no different in terms of qualfications." Usually self-described "intellectuals" are sensitive to such distinctions.

Your argument is nothing more than name-calling. Are you sure that such a sloppy argument is appropriate for the "intellectual arena" (sic)? :rofl:

And I thought you were leaving?:hi:

[sufrommich]

61. She's already won the primary,too?

I feel like Rip Van Winkle.

[ecstatic]

108. Sophistry!

LOL. You're combining arguments. Yes, if Bill C. appointed her to a cabinet position then that would raise suspicions of nepotism--particularly if she was not qualified. However, she was very qualified.

Now, as far as the voters of NY electing her, that has nothing to do with nepotism. She was not "appointed" by a relative. You quoted the definition but you're trying to twist it to suit your needs.

[Romulox]

116. *favoritism* (as in appointment to a job) based on kinship

Nepotism doesn't require a formal job appointment.

[ShortnFiery]

59. I agree with the nepotism label - HRC got involved in the daily operations which is profoundly

unlike any other First Lady to date.

Plus, I'd also add Cronyism - by using Bill's DLC machinery to propel her to the Senate. :shrug:

[mondo joe]

62. The fact that you agree with it just confirms how wrong it must be.

Thanks.

[ShortnFiery]

79. Awe, I value your opinion too MJ.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ccpup]

7. bullshit

yeah, without Bill she never would have been voted one of the Top Lawyers in our Country as well as the major breadwinner for the family while Bill was still finding his political footing. And without Bill she never would have succeeded due to her own innate intelligence, work ethic and willingness to take risks.

sounds to me like someone has a bit too much time on their hands and an appetite for unnecessary drama. oh well. at least the OP's getting some obviously much needed attention, right?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. exactly, without her man she is nothing.

:sarcasm:

[Marrah_G]

Doesn't it just make you wanna smack the crap out of something?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. i generally want to smack the crap out of stupid people. i think bigots are stupid.

[Warpy]

13. She might still be Senator Clinton

because from what I've heard, she was on the legal fast track when she married Bill.

Plus, her family was well enough off that she was born on second base, something that afforded her a great many opportunities that you and I never had.

If anything, her marriage and motherhood were hindrances to her career, not helps.

She's lacking in neither brains nor ambition.

[juajen]

148. Have you read her book?

If I remember correctly, she received scholarships to both Wellesley and Yale. Her parents were not well off, but were not considered poor. I believe he had a store or something. She has worked hard all her life and deserves every accolade thrown at her. You naysayers are pitiful and sexist.

[Lex]

15. Hello? Who said he'd even be Prez without her?

I don't think he would.

[ShortnFiery]

51. True if only for the fact that Wifey was ACTIVELY cleaning up his sexual misconduct with his aides.

How's that for integrity? :(

[Lex]

69. " . . . Wifey . . . ?"

:wtf:

[ShortnFiery]

95. Psst! I did that tongue-in-cheek because I knew it would get somebody's goat.

Guilty as charged. :blush:

[Lex]

123. So clever.

Not that I believe it for a minute.

[ShortnFiery]

126. Awe, sure that silly term "wifey" is permanently part of my regular-use vocabulary.

:eyes:

[Marrah_G]

18. She'd be nothing?

Do you know anything about her? Seriously, do you?

[mondo joe]

22. After all, she's just a woman. It's not as if she has an education or career or aspirations

of her own.

What a sexist pukefest.

[Marrah_G]

38. It is definitely that

I hope everyone alerted on this sexist piece of trash that would make Rush smile from ear to ear while saying "Well done!".

I just want to slap people who assume a woman is nothing without her man. Like somehow a womans value is measured by who's bed she sleeps in and who's dinner she cooks.

[Sparkly]

20. An Old Joke

Bill and Hillary are driving through the town where Hillary grew up, when they stop for gas. As he is pumping gas the attendant looks in the window and recognizes Hillary. "Do you remember me?" he asks Hillary. "We dated in high school."

They chat for a little while and then Bill pays for the gas and drives away. Bill, feeling proud of himself, looks at Hillary and says, "What would have happened if you married the gas station attendant instead of me?"

Hillary replies, "You'd be pumping gas and he'd be president."

[sufrommich]

21. She's referred to as Sen. Clinton now.

[ShortnFiery]

34. Well put narrative! IMO, HRC is an Anti-Feminist from the entitled ranks of political royalty.

:thumbsup: :hi:

[Romulox]

40. Yep. And you're a SEXIST for pointing that out.

:sarcasm:

[Egalitariat]

35. Without Bill, she'd be married to an ex-President, a NY Senator, and

would be the front runner for either the Democratic or Republican nomination for president.

Without Hillary, Bill would be running for and losing, again, the Lt. Governor's race in Arkansas.

[Matariki]

43. bullshit. utter bullshit. and sexist as it's being pointed out.

Both Clintons were politically active since their college days in the 60's.

Educate yourself or at least don't spew nonsense you know nothing about.

[Romulox]

48. A little reading material. HRC seems to think being first lady is a qualification

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/about/firstlady/

[mondo joe]

You linked to her biography. What's she supposed to do - leave a blank decade

for your comfort?

[spotbird]

71. So her status as Bill's wife is

valuable, and it qualifies her, but it is sexist to mention it, even if she mentions it.

I'm following. I'm following.

[mondo joe]

77. No, you're not following, but I'll help you.

Her biography is what it is.

Her experience as First Lady is modestly relevant to her qualifications, but alone isn't much.

It's not sexist to mention it.

It is sexist to say she'd be nowhere if not for her marriage.

[spotbird]

84. The Goldwater Girl

goes to an Ivy League Law School, does well in private practice, teaches, sits on the board of a despicable corporation and is then qualified to be president. It follows.

[mondo joe]

103. "Qualified to be president"?

Her qualifications to be President are as as good as many. Of course what qualifies a person, beyond the legal minimum, is up to the voters.

[Romulox]

91. No one said she'd be "nowhere" without Bill; she just wouldn't be the heir apparent

without him.

[Romulox]

89. I think you've got it!

Bottom line is: one way or another it's sexist!1!1!! not to give Hillary "her turn" at the Presidency. :puke:

[ShortnFiery]

99. Hey, let's open the floodgates? Us gals can post "married to the boss" on all future resumes.

Yippee! :eyes:

[hlthe2b]

160. I'll be gentle as I can: If you start a sentence with "us" gals can...

and finish the sentence with just about any phrase or comment, I suspect many will believe you really ARE "married to the boss."

That degree of sarcasm better at least be expressed with good grammar...... If I offend you, I am sorry, ShortnFiery, but that IS the truth.

edited for typo

[book_worm]

52. how about the reverse? Where would Bill have been without HRC?

[mondo joe]

57. I can only say I am who I am and where I am in part because of my relationship

with my SO, as is he.

Without each other that might look very different.

There is no legitimate basis on which to assume we'd be better of or worse.

:shrug:

[never_get_over_it]

60. Ok I sort of understand your point

but should be stated where would she be if Bill hadn't been a popular President - because I understand that her name recognition and "popularity" are hard to separate from Bill

BUT

where would either Bill or Hill be without each other - they have both contributed to each other's success

I don't support Hillary in ANY way and truthfully if Bill could run again I wouldn't support him BUT the way you have put this smacks of extreme sexism....

[OKNancy]

63. Ridiclous. Anyone who looks at her biography

has to know that she would have made a huge impact at some point in her life.

High School - National Honor Society member and a National Merit Scholarship finalist
Wellesley - Worked for Eugene McCarthy's presidential campaign in 1968, as Student body
PRESIDENT gave the very famous commencement address that was featured in Life magazine.
After graduation - worked for Marian Wright Edelman at a group that would become the Children's Defense Fund, enrolled in Yale law school. Spent summer registering Hispanic voters in Texas, worked for the impeachment committee ( Nixon), taught law at the Univ of Arkansas..
then helped Bill become the successful politician he is.

It's not like she was handed her skills on a silver platter.

[Romulox]

72. Lots of women teach law and work in politics

Only one of them gets the power of the Democratic machine behind her.

Oh, and she just happens to be named Clinton. Mere coincidence, I tell ya! :sarcasm:

[spotbird]

76. You left out that stint

as a Goldwater Girl. Since you go all the back to her high school experience, I'm sure you think her early political experience is relevant.

[ShortnFiery]

112. "she would have made a huge impact" but not in politics - she hasn't the personality.

She was blessed to not have truly challenging races in NY State. She does not exude any sense of genuineness nor warmth.

However, in these post 9-11 daze perhaps America needs to FOLLOW Britain's lead and anoint an iron lady like her heroine, one each, war horse Tory, Margaret Thatcher. :(

[LeftCoast]

66. Where would Bill have been without Hilary?

Your question assumes Mrs Clinton contributes nothing to the equation. That seems somewhat sexist to me.

[Romulox]

67. George * Bush got where he is because he was the MOST QUALIFIED

Out of 300,000,000 Americans, George * Bush is the most qualified to be President. The fact that his dad was President has NOTHING to do with it. Any suggestion to the contrary is sexist (or something).


:sarcasm:

[onenote]

70. ooh..ooh....can I play?

Where would Evan Bayh be without Birch Bayh?
Where would Mary Landrieu be without Moon Landrieu?
Where would Jay Rockefeller be without John D. Rockefeller III (and a host of other Rockefellers)?
Where would Teddy Kennedy be without JFK and RFK?
WHere would Jesse Jackson Jr. be without Jesse Sr?
Where would Russ Carnahan be without Jean and Mel Carnahan?

[Sparkly]

75. Where would George W. Bush be without Karl Rove?

For that matter, where would George W. Bush be without Osama bin Laden?

[Romulox]

94. W. Bush would be President without a famous dad! Realy he would!

What are you--a sexist? :silly:

:sarcasm:

[spotbird]

78. Or W without HW?

It's not pretty, what this entitlement by family name reaps.

[ShortnFiery]

114. Yes, I find political royal dynasties very distasteful too.

:shrug:

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

82. Guess I Did Not See That Coming

In no way did I mean the post from a male/female point of view.

I was, as some pointed out, merely implying that her recent achievements have been a direct result of her marriage to Bill.

I'm not implying she's not competent on her. Not capable of being highly successful as a female. Not deserving of achievement. There are plenty of women who are FAR MORE DESERVING of achievement than some men, and I respect that. The best person is what concerns me, not the sex or color of their skin.

But face it. Her recent achievements were a DIRECT RESULT of being and staying married to Bill. I said it in 1999, and I stand by it. She's like a journeyman player on a Hot Sports Team. Riding their coattails on the way to a championship. Sure, she's good in her own right, to an extent. But President Of The United States??

And as for the comments about New Yorkers voting for her. You know, I wouldn't mind her so much as Senator of New York. And let's face it, she would not have that position were it not for running immediately following her husband's Presidency. But it's all part of a big game. It's not about being Senator of New York. It's about CONTROL. About being somehow "destined" to be President.

And if you think that someone like Hillary Clinton, regardless of her sex, would be in a position to become President, without having been married to "Bill Clinton" specifically, then you're on more drugs than rush.

[mondo joe]

88. You're still wrong. Part of the reason he was President was because of HER.

WTF did you think she was doing all those years? Baking cookies and having tea parties while her man was out at work?

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

122. Well....Let's Compare Them Then?

Yeah, I guess I am saying that she had little to do with him becoming President. Whether she was home baking cookies or not.

Does having a supportive and income earning wife, automatically make someone more successful?

Bill Clinton had unbelievable charisma. He had good looks. He was able to talk on and on, and people remained hooked on his every word.

Do you honestly believe that Hillary compares with Bill in terms of deserving to become President Of The United States? Seriously?

Even if she did contribute to her husband's success, that gives her the right to the SAME EXACT SUCCESS? I suppose that Bill Gates' wife could run Microsoft. Mrs. Buffett could manage their portfolio.

Unbelievable. But then, I guess I should get used to it, because she might be our next "leader."

[mondo joe]

128. I don't know where you keep getting "the right" from. The people have the right to

vote as they choose. Hillary - like anyone else - can make her case. Then the people can decide.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

133. The American People Have No Choice Unfortunately

She's being groomed and SOLD to us. Well, not all of us, but the majority of the American people are too stupid to understand, which is part of the problem.

First off, Obama won't be competition. I'm sorry, but he's not experienced enough, and I knew from the beginning that Hillary would not feel threatened by him in the least. I had always hoped Edwards would be competitive, but Ms. Clinton has neutralized him also.

And no repub stands much of a chance. Except perhaps against Hillary Clinton. But ultimately, people will vote for the Democratic party in droves, and Ms. Clinton will be our next "Leader."

I guess that's what we deserve though.

[mondo joe]

134. If you think most Americans are so much more stupid than you, Democracy must be a

real hardship on you.

[sufrommich]

98. Would you have voted against Robert Kennedy ,were his

achievements a direct result of being a Kennedy? See what a stupid argument that is ?

[book_worm]

120. Again you miss the point. She was a highly accomplished person in her own right

before Bill. Bill has said many times that she was the one who should have run for office. In office she was always a trusted confidant and assistant to him. In 2000 it was her turn.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

125. So Fricking What?

THAT DOES NOT GIVE HER THE RIGHT TO BECOME PRESIDENT OF THE FUCKING UNITED STATES!!

If being a GREAT WIFE was the only thing that mattered, then how come Mrs. Bill Gates is not Vice President at Microsoft?

How many women go into the SAME POSITION as their spouse, and become AS SUCCESSFUL as their spouse in the SAME EXACT POSITION? Tell me when that happens.

Her support and recommendations for Bill has NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!

Thanks for turning a discussion about one thing, into something completely different. I don't give a shit about her sex or her support for Bill. I care about this entitlement of becoming President, because she was helpful in him becoming President.

And comparing this to Bobby Kennedy, is almost comical. Right on point, as usual.

[mondo joe]

127. Nothing gives anyone the right to become president, other than winning more electoral

votes than the opponent.

If her only qualification were that she was married to her husband, you might have a point. But that's not the case.

[sufrommich]

129. "entitlement of becoming President"

You seem to have a rather tenuous grasp of this whole "election process" thingy

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

131. Tenuous?

No, I've been paying attention these past 10 years. I see how things work.

If Al Gore does not enter the race, I'd be willing to bet a 90%+ chance that we're looking at a Clinton victory next November.

Sure, there is a possibility she won't make it, but her position, should Al Gore not run, is completely different than say Howard Dean 3 years ago.

And yes, I know how the process works, which is why I KNOW she's going to be our next president. Unless Mr. Gore saves us.

[ShortnFiery]

140. No, I fear that the M$M will turn medieval on her ass - the moment after HRC accepts the nomination.

Never forget: The republican right wing holds onto and nurtures their grudge-matches like fine wine. Because I personally don't care her arrogance and sense of entitlement, I'm tempted to enjoy the future evisceration of all things Clinton ... but dammit, I can't. Many people who I like and respect are supporting her ... and at least, in name, she's a democrat. So I'm trying to convince people to vote otherwise. It's going to get ugly but I'd bet good money that HRC will remain a Senator from NY State, nothing more. :shrug:

[Matariki]

144. Melinda Gates WAS in a management position at Microsoft before marrying Bill Gates

Just as Hillary Clinton was accomplished in her own right before/during/after her husband became POTUS.

Do a little research. You might not like her, but she is far from riding on her husband's accomplishments.

[hlthe2b]

132. The moment you felt the need to refer to her as "Ms. Clinton"

you had to know what you were unleashing. Like it or not, she has earned the respect that comes from serving as an elected SENATOR of NY and to refer to her as MS. Clinton, rather than SENATOR Clinton is disrespectful. So, no, I'm not buying that you in no way meant the post from a male/female point of view. That is exactly the way you initiated this post.

I don't support HRC because her views are too centrist for me... If I had my druthers, the WH would be won by someone who brings new views and excitement. So from that standpoint, we have something in common. But, to say HRC has no qualifications other than the strings of her husband, is just plain wrong and SEXIST.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

137. And You Refer To Her As HRC

How many women do you know that switch from using their married name, to using their maiden name, to using a combination of both, then go back to using their married name, whenever it's convenient for them.

I don't have a single friend whose wife includes their married name as if it was their middle name. Thanks for calling her that, because I had almost forgot.

I suppose that is a feminist right. But she keeps going back and forth as it works best for her, and that is phony.

[hlthe2b]

138. Using initials is gender neutral..

Choosing to purposely ignore the earned title of Senator so as to diminish her, is NOT.

[juajen]

149. That's interesting.

What if Pickles ran for Senator from Texas. Do you think she could be elected, or would everybody in Texas be laughing their heads off? Brains or lack thereof are usually discernible, her idiot-brain husband being the exception. Pickles might have been a good librarian, wife or mother, but none of the three have evident; and, she certainly has been a mediocre First Lady. We are very lucky to have had Hillary in any capacity. She's brilliant, charming, compassionate and dedicated to our democratic cause.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. The same place Junior would be without Poppy.

[Romulox]

97. Yeppers. Of course you're a SEXIST for pointing that out. :sarcasm: nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

104. In the same way I'm anti-semitic for not liking Lieberman.

[lutefisk]

156. At least she was accepted into law school, unlike Junior

:hi:

[cooolandrew]

117. Bill does seem to be her winning formula,everyone in voice chat talks of Bill back in the WH.

[Elspeth]

118. You might ask the same question about Al Gore, or any other VP

who gets picked for the job.

Just think if Clinton had chosen Dennis Kucinich.... :)

[noamnety]

130. Glad to see others called you on the sexism here.

Most people in positions of power are there because of their connections. Nothing unique in that.

Please figure out a more useful way to contribute to the political dialog here than obsessing over Clinton's uterus and who does or doesn't have access to it.

And this here: "She'd be NOTHING without being married to ..." WRONG Answer. But thanks for letting us know that you think some women are "nothing."

[hughee99]

139. IMHO...

she'd be a very successful, "big time" lawyer, but probably not a "big time" politican.

[Iris]

142. Maybe the real question should be, "Where would 'Mr. Clinton' be without Hillary?"

n/t

[LanternWaste]

145. I suppose a question just as valid would be...

I suppose a question just as valid would be, "how far would President Clinton have gotten without his wife?"

[Generator]

153. Exactly, she married well

her biggest accomplishment. Gotta do it without marrying it. Unless at least you are a widow. JEEZ. I'd have a whole lotta more respect for her if she did want she wanted to do-which is be a politician thirty years ago. But no! It was HARD then. It was easier to marry it. (even though I know she was mad in love with him too-of that I have no doubt)

I mentioned this a couple days ago. (you stole this from me-didn't you-you bastard! LOL)

[mondo joe]

163. She was a success on her own before Bill got into politics. Could you at least get your

bashing right?

[Generator]

179. She was a successful elected politician before marriage?????

Really? I guess I missed that. Obviously she's extremely smart, she was a successful lawyer. But she got the politic an chops from her husband otherwise she would have been doing it beforehand.

I don't think we argued she was sitting home baking cookies before she was married. I don't think she's done that since. But she hooked her wagon to Bill Clinton and that has been her ticket.

She did not AS MANY women have-forged the way in politics all on their own-she married it. That's just a fact. Which is one reason as much as I want a woman president the FACT that she married one first, taints it.

Maggie Thatcher-nasty that she was-did she follow Mr. Thatcher?

I will even give you that maybe Bill Clinton would have been not much without her. Who knows? But she wasn't doing it on her own. She WAITED for him to have his moment in the sun. I don't think it's necessarily the height of feminism to do that.

[mondo joe]

186. She didn't marry into politics - she worked in a partnership that led to success

in politics. While she did that she carried on her own career that makes her as qualified to run for office as anyone else.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Imagevision]

154. Well the first thing I noticed was her dropping the *Rodham* in her name...now

it's just Hillary CLINTON, too many freegin Bush's & Clintons...!

[Disturbed]

158. Hillary Rodham would probably have been a successful

Attorney had she not married Bill Clinton. I believe that she is very intelligent & accomplished person. Would she have been a NY Senator? Possibly. Would she be the front runner in a Pres. primary? I highly doubt it.

[BuyingThyme]

161. I'm starting to get the impression that some folks just aren't totally behind Hillary.

[MLFerrell]

162. In Arkansas where she belongs.

[mondo joe]

164. Why would she be in Arkansas? She's not FROM there.

:eyes:

[MLFerrell]

165. I didn't say she was from there, I said she belongs there.

[mondo joe]

166. Why would she be there without Bill?

And why does she belong there?

[Katherine Brengle]

169. Do you expect a logical answer?

The original question is so outside of reality and misogynistic, everything that follows is either contempt or equally sad and ridiculous.

[mondo joe]

170. No, but I have a hard time giving up on logic even where it probably can't be found.

[Katherine Brengle]

171. Indeed, fair enough.

I tend to do the same.

[Katherine Brengle]

167. Where would HE be without HER?

They've been a team all along. He doesn't get to be the only important player.

This is major misogynistic bullshit right here.

[UGADUer]

172. A functionary within the Republican Party. eom.

[mondo joe]

173. Why would that be? Or do you just like to post bullshit with no link to reality

?

[UGADUer]

174. She worked for Barry Goldwater's campaign and was president of the Young Repubs

back when their platform was largely extreme-right "Libertarian" Party stuff. Ayn Rand was a "formulating influence on her" (according to the Independent UK); I imagine she understands the worthlessness of third party politics in the US and would work for the GOP. If I remember correctly Bill was a lifelong Democrat.

[cynatnite]

176. And she was a goldwater girl, too...

I used to be a repuke many years ago, too.

What's your point?

[UGADUer]

177. I think Bill pulled her into the Democrats; she's always been very conservative

Even her big healthcare push in the early nineties was more a subsidy plan to corporations than anything else. She has a very strong influence from the beginning of her years as a privileged Republican. I think the Dems. moving right made her more comfortable with that party and of course her husband.

[cynatnite]

180. Oh, so you're making assumptions about what you think was in her head...

Gotcha.

[UGADUer]

181. I can't know what she thinks inside any more than you

I just know that for a long period of time she was a declared Republican and that her formative years were very conservative and that she has supported many right-wing adventures as a Senator, like censoring violent video games, banning flag burning, supporting the War, etc.

[cynatnite]

189. Actually, it was the Vietnam war and the death of MLK that did it...

She left the repukes and began working for McCarthy's campaign if I remember right. That's when she became a Dem. She didn't even start dating Bill until the 70s.

[UGADUer]

191. I read about her opinion on Vietnam in her book

and it seemed to me she the Nixonian criticism of it more than an antiwar perspective. If the US could've "won" the war by successfully installing puppets in the South and protecting them, she would've been fine.

[mondo joe]

182. Well you're wrong . She became a Democrat before she MET Bill Clinton. But why bother

with facts when you can just make shit up?

Those facts would include being a Jimmy Carter appointee. Or serving as a member of the impeachment inquiry staff advising the House Committee on the Judiciary during the Watergate scandal.

But just keep making shit up.

[UGADUer]

183. I didn't make anything up; I'm just stating what I believe

I don't have an agenda, don't be so knee-jerk about it please. I want to be friendly about discussions there's no need for attacks.

[mondo joe]

184. Yes, you are totally making shit up - like when you say Bill "pulled" her into the

Democrats, when she was in fact a Democrat before they knew each other.

[cynatnite]

175. You don't think she's accomplished all she has on her own merit?

Personally, I think anyone who runs for president has to have a sizable ego. They'd have to in order to stand up under such scrutiny from the media and public.

As far as Gore goes...I think he got burned once and has no desire to stick his feet in the fire again. He's doing what he wants to do on his own terms which I like very much. If he runs for president I think he'd have to make a lot of compromises that he's not willing to make anymore.

This sort of rhetoric is what Hillary gets for being a strong, independent and intelligent woman.

[UGADUer]

178. She's done almost nothing as Senator before running for President

and then we have people like Feingold, who has done so much, refusing to run for President. It seems like a reverse-meritocracy.

[cynatnite]

190. How do you define nothing?

Sitting in an office playing solitaire on the computer? Everything I've read says completely opposite. Some I agreed with and some I didn't. Plus last I heard she had 70% approval rating in NY. Seems like she's doing something right in order to get re-elected there.

[UGADUer]

192. Approval ratings dont mean much in American politics

At most, they mean "We like (insert politician here) more than his or her opponent in the other party"

What if you did polls about her actual positions? I think they'd be rather unpopular.

[cynatnite]

193. Votes do and she was re-elected for more than just her husband's name n/t

[UGADUer]

194. She outspent Jonathan Tasini 100:1 and was a former first lady

You and I and anyone who has ever studied American politics knows elections mostly don't allow the public any choice about policy. They are money games.

[Lucinda]

185. I'm really stunned at how uninformed some people in this thread are

To whom it may concern:
Go read her resume/bio prior to dating Bill and then come tell me why you think she would have accomplished nothing without him...

Jeez.

[Yupster]

198. Is anyone suggesting she would accomplish nothing?

without Bill?

Reading through, it seems there's general agreement she'd be very successful.

[Lucinda]

199. Yes. Several, including the OP.

[Evergreen Emerald]

187. Where would Mr. Obama be without Michelle?

[mondo joe]

188. And where would Ted Kennedy be without JFK?

And where would JKF be without Joe Kennedy?

Everyone is the result of their relationships.

[superkia]

197. Anyone with their eyes opens knows where she would be or...

wouldn't be.