Democracy and Tyranny: Our new hobbesian world view

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well, they say that democracy is a contat sport

So lers see what Montesquiu had to say about this

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As soon as man enters into a state of society he loses the sense of his weakness; equality ceases, and then commences the state of war.

Each particular society begins to feel its strength, whence arises a state of war between different nations. The individuals likewise of each society become sensible of their force; hence the principal advantages of this society they endeavour to convert to their own emolument, which constitutes a state of war between individuals.

These two different kinds of states give rise to human laws. Considered as inhabitants of so great a planet, which necessarily contains a variety of nations, they have laws relating to their mutual intercourse, which is what we call the law of nations. As members of a society that must be properly supported, they have laws relating to the governors and the governed, and this we distinguish by the name of politic law. They have also another sort of law, as they stand in relation to each other; by which is understood the civil law.

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He fully understood that society is a collection of people whio are at conflict with one another and this is a conflict for resources and materials Of course men and women organize into states and in time those states will fight for reserouces hence your need for... and in this Hobbesian world of conflict for conflict sake is where most men are,

In many ways this is the Conservative view point, Whther it was expressed by Hobes or Burke or Rush,,, it is the ME and I avove the we

And he rights about this

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Better is it to say, that the government most conformable to nature is that which best agrees with the humour and disposition of the people in whose favour it is established.

The strength of individuals cannot be united without a conjunction of all their wills. "The conjunction of those wills," as Gravina again very justly observes, "is what we call the civil state."

Law in general is human reason, inasmuch as it governs all the inhabitants of the earth: the political and civil laws of each nation ought to be only the particular cases in which human reason is applied.

They should be adapted in such a manner to the people for whom they are framed that it should be a great chance if those of one nation suit another.

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Here we are seeing the beginng of those positive laws and how they are about a we, and not an I or Me. The nation is made by individuals who lend it strenth, and make it an us

Then he writes about Governemnt:

Book II.
Of Laws Directly Derived from the Nature of Government

1. Of the Nature of the three different Governments. There are three species of government: republican, monarchical, and despotic. In order to discover their nature, it is sufficient to recollect the common notion, which supposes three definitions, or rather three facts: that a republican government is that in which the body, or only a part of the people, is possessed of the supreme power; monarchy, that in which a single person governs by fixed and established laws; a despotic government, that in which a single person directs everything by his own will and caprice.

This is what I call the nature of each government; we must now inquire into those laws which directly conform to this nature, and consequently are the fundamental institutions.

2. Of the Republican Government, and the Laws in relation to Democracy.1 When the body of the people is possessed of the supreme power, it is called a democracy. When the supreme power is lodged in the hands of a part of the people, it is then an aristocracy.

In a democracy the people are in some respects the sovereign, and in others the subject.

There can be no exercise of sovereignty but by their suffrages, which are their own will; now the sovereign's will is the sovereign himself. The laws therefore which establish the right of suffrage are fundamental to this government. And indeed it is as important to regulate in a republic, in what manner, by whom, to whom, and concerning what, suffrages are to be given, as it is in a monarchy to know who is the prince, and after what manner he ought to govern.

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Notice he realizes that there rae three types of government and that these three governments are at times oposing to each other... By the way, Leo Strauss is a fan of what Montesquiu would call despotic givernment, where the ruler has nothing to owe to the suject.

In fact, while Montesquiu was a fan of Democratic government in an ideal way, he never expereinced it, Leo Strauus, a father of the Neo Con movement distrusts democracy, with a small d. He does not believe the people have a say. In fact the people should be guided and prodded,

According to Drury, Strauss's attitude towards liberal democracy was at the root of this thought. "Strauss abhorred liberal democracy because he associated it with the Weimar Republic whose constitution was drafted at the end of World War I."

http://www.swans.com/library/art11/mdolin10.html

So when you start discussing the nature of the American state and how it has changed, we have gone from the principles of the Enlightenment to a more Hobesian view of the world, where the people are to be guided, scorned and prevented from exercising real power.

Oh and for The laws, here you go, a link

http://www.constitution.org/cm/sol_02.htm

[kineneb]

1. intesting quotes

I vaguely remember Hobbes from a college philosophy class. The Straussians should have read up on their Machiavelli before embarking on their path; "The Prince" has some rather sage advice for them

going to Renaissance history section of bookcases... opening the book, I find this quote...

from section IX. The Constitutional Principality-

"A man who is made a prince by the favor of the people must work to retain their friendship; this is easy for him because the people ask only not to be oppressed. But a man who has become prince against the will of the people and by the favor of the nobles should, before anything else, try to win the people over; this too is easy if he takes them under his protection."

more from the same section...
"Principalities usually come to grief when the transition is being made from limited power to absolutism. Princes taking this step rule either directly or through magistrates. ... "In disturbed times, also, men whom the prince can trust will be hard to find. So such a prince cannot rely on what he has experienced in times of tranquility, when the citizens have need of his government."

from section XII. Military organization and mercenary troops

"Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous. If a prince bases the defense of his state on mercenaries, he will never achieve stability or security. For mercenaries are disunited, thirsty for power, undisciplined and disloyal; they are brave among their friends and cowards before the enemy; they have no fear of God, they do not keep faith with their fellow men; they avoid defeat just so long as they avoid battle; in peacetime you are despoiled by them, and in wartime by the enemy."

Hmmm, Blackwater?

dang, I knew there had to be a use for all those medieval and Renaissance history classes...

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I always find Machiavelli a good source

they fashion themselves machiavelian... Mayberry machiavellies.

The last quote from the Prince is always astounding for me

In the setting of the era it makes all the sense in the world, since the Condotieri were essentially armies serving the princes of the time... at times ruthless, at times not.

Prince and his troops are the the modern condotieri

And yes, all those texts should come back. We can connect what is going on right now, with what has happened before

These guys are hobbesians... truly....

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I always find Machiavelli a good source

they fashion themselves machiavelian... Mayberry machiavellies.

The last quote from the Prince is always astounding for me

In the setting of the era it makes all the sense in the world, since the Condotieri were essentially armies serving the princes of the time... at times ruthless, at times not.

Prince and his troops are the the modern condotieri

And yes, all those texts should come back. We can connect what is going on right now, with what has happened before

These guys are hobbesians... truly....

[Nevernose]

6. Is that seriosuly what your personal bookcases look like?

Because mine, looking over my right shoulder, read from left to right:

A book with a girl with big breasts on it with a laser gun in her hand
A book with a girl withOUT big breasts on it with a laser gun in her hand.
An autographed copy of Jimmy Carter's "My Life"
An autographed copy of Jimmy Carter's "Christmas in Plains: Memories"
An autographed copy of Bill Clinton's "My Life"
An autographed copy of Chuck Palahniuk's "Fight Club"
An autographed copy of "Ice by Ice: the Vanilla Ice Story"
Another book with a girl with big breasts, this one holding a sword.
Another book with a girl with big breasts, this one holding a sword, though there are people w/ laser guns standing behind her.
Several collected works of Mark Twain
Two versions of "The Canterbury Tales"
The Bible

Please tell me you work at a library, or am I just horribly unorganized?

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Actually my bookcases, most of them are in storage

look something like that, when they are in order

My most precious book is a copy of Gibbon's the rise and fall that was my mothers, an 1880s edition, that was my grandparents, in onion paper... and no, that one is not opened too often

But you can go on line and find all of this... googgle is your firend

Though there is a copy of the Laws somewhere in this house

:-)

I haven't cracked it in years

:-)

I also have every batttletech novel published until 1997

And some forgotten Realms, and a full shelve on the art of writing fiction


Oh and we have a bunch of sci fi novels too

[kineneb]

8. yes

I have one whole section of bookcase of medieval and Renaissance history and literature books; that 8' wide bookcase also has art history books, contemporary politics, books on world religions, and gardening...
-one small, 2 shelf bookcase of nothing but music history books,
-another short bookcase of German-language literature and textbooks
-and in my studio an almost 6'tall bookcase of printed music, in books or as sheet music.

This does not count the 6 boxes of paperback science fiction in my shed, or the 2 bookcases of RPG books in Hubby's room (Traveller, D&D, etc).

...we have almost run out of wall space...

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Wow I did not mention the RPG stuff

:-)

[Drum]

4. Excellent---recommended.

:thumbsup:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Thanks, I think we need to start doing this more

readying these texts and gaining the information.

Hobbes perhaps tomorrow?

Oif the Leviathan!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, at least it is easier to read than Strauss

Oh and of course we also will need to look closely at Ann Ryand

[Drum]

9. Ayn Rand? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yep the founder of Objectivism

hell I may actually get Atlas Shruged and read it

She is one of the basis for the crap we are seeing

And just as Leo Strauss she hated democracy

[Drum]

12. I read a little Rand in my college days,

The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged, We The Living. It's a whole other me looking at this nowadays, and I would be interested in seeing that discussion as well.
Thx!

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. I didn't I feel poor

and I have been told she was quite the wordsmith, so if anything, read it for method, as in writing method

But I feel I need to read her, to "understand" better where the pubies are coming from

I've done some Leo recently, and god, that man could write CONVULUTED...