I refuse to be made into a tribe. I am a member of the reality-based community.

[TheWraith]

I happened to be reading Matt Taibbi's funny and dead-on mocking of 9/11 conspiracy theorists tonight (found here: http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/42181), and I came upon a bit which struck a chord with me.

Bush has presided over a country that has become hopelessly divided into insoluble, paranoid tribes, one of which happens to be Bush's own government. All of these tribes have things in common; they're insular movements that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace, violently disbelieve in the humanity of those outside their ranks, and lavishly praise their own movement mediocrities as great thinkers and achievers.

The reason this hit home so deeply is because it's been happening more and more lately right here on DU: increasingly hostile little cliques, each with an us-against-them attitude and a dubious committment to the reality-based community. If you're not offended by the silly Snickers commercial, you're a homophobic bigot. If you don't express absolute paranoia every time the word Iran is mentioned, you're a sheep. The anti-Hillaryites, the suicide doves, the Democrat-bashers, the anti-Pelosiites, the "Karl Rove rules the world" brigade... It seems like increasingly, people are so obsessed in their own narrow view of the issues and the world that pragmatism and reality have fallen by the wayside.

I just saw another thread where someone was organizing people to vote for the poster's niece in a contest to win a free wedding, because the fiancee's tour in Iraq had been extended and they'd lost their deposits. Into the middle of that thread comes some idiot lost in their own little world, feeling self-rightous as any fundie, and angrily refusing to participate because there were no gay couples among the ten finalists... even though the contest was from a place in south Florida, where gay people can't get married. This is the sort of thing that absolutely infuriates me--people so deep in their tribalism that they can't even see the real world anymore.

I refuse to have it. Period, no exceptions. Bullshit is still bullshit, regardless of whether it's spewed by someone on "our side." Karl Rove does not orchestrate everything that happens in the world and in the media--that's no different than a freeper saying that all the bad Iraq coverage is staged. Regardless of the things she's done wrong, Hillary Clinton isn't the antichrist. The world isn't ending because a commercial made fun of two guys' homosexual panic. We're not about to start bombing Iran next week. Nancy Pelosi isn't a traitor for not taking orders directly from MoveOn and ANSWER.

The guiding principle behind the idea of the reality-based community is that the facts are the facts, even when they don't support your personal biases. You're not supposed to finagle and twist to try and make things work out the way you want. Now, if some people want to abandon reality, and create their own little bubbles for their own little tribes, go ahead. But we've seen how well that's worked out for the neo-cons. For that reason, as well as because it's the right thing to do, I'm going to remain right where I am, countering, debunking, and throwing truth around whenever I can. It may not be popular, but to my mind, realism is its own reward.

[file83]

1. In-other-words..."Why can't we all just get along?"

Quit your bitchin' - if we all agreed and didn't rattle off our opinions around the house of mirrors like a vernacular pin ball machine, life would be boring as fuck.

And you can argue with that if you please. That's what we're here for. :thumbsup:

[autorank]

4. .

:rofl: Priceless

[Meldread]

2. I agree with your rant.

I certainly have my own personal bias, but I'm also willing to concede to the facts. This type of thinking has always been a problem of the left, though, and is nothing new. The further you move to the fringes, be it left or right, the more and more you lose your grip on reality. The facts begin to matter less if they don't support your personal beliefs.

I consider myself to be squarely on the left, but compared to some people that hang out on Democratic Underground, I have no idea where I would fit. The Clintons in my opinion, are right leaning moderates, which should give some idea as to where I sit on the political spectrum.

I think one of the problems of DU is its insular nature. We are all Democrats or at the very least on the left. At times the place can become an echo chamber, which in turn causes some people to believe their own bull - in effect magnifying the problem.

[ArbustoBuster]

3. That gets a kick and a recommend. n/t

[sam sarrha]

5. good points, we all have to start we are, unfortunately we also often have to start where others are

[HCE SuiGeneris]

6. Matt is a right-wing talking point with his head in the sand...

This from a respondent more accurately reflects reality

Posted by: Eternal Vigilance on Sep 28, 2006 10:38 AM
This is the post here I find myself agreeing with to the utmost. Everywhere I turn, I realize that even though I never went crazy, I left the normal world behind when I made too many trips to the library over the pre-internet age and found too much confirmation since. It seems Americans think they understand how we are ruled, when in fact, none of us average citizens do. But you know, it has something to do with a system founded by Cecil Rhodes and his peers over a hundred years ago, it has something to do with the privately-owned Federal Reserve, it has something to do with foundations and think tanks, and it has something to do with lawless, unaccountable intelligence agencies and probably cults and secret societies to boot. But the American people not only do not study formidable works of history such as Prof. J. Carroll Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope," many among our sports-and-religion obsessed population read little to nothing of any serious literature, nothing at all about RealPolitik. So those who were "paranoid" (alert, observant) enough to realize that gravity does not pulverize concrete to dust in mid-air and that multiple airliners cannot just wander freely about the skies for two hours are at the distinct disadvantage of being in a minority. The people who think we're in an era where intrepid reporters and publishers could expose such overarching matters a la Watergate haven't paid much attention to the implications of all the corporate-media mergers, acquisitions, and power-wealth consolidations we've endured in the past few decades. The American "Left," so peepless (clueless) for so long while all this took place, is so marginalized now, even if it's a population majority, that it serves as little more than a punching bag for Fascists and a haven for self-congratulating pundits like this one. "Project Truth?" "Into the Buzzsaw?" Danny Casaler-who? Paul Wilch-wha'? Octopus - are you crazy? - this is the fragmented and woefully ignorant view of the "Left" as I've found it and patiently tried to catch my local colleagues up to speed as to what's happened in the past hundred years or so. They just don't know how old, organized and entrenched the movement I have dubbed "The Fourth Reich" really is. They will never even IDENTIFY the people and forces that are the enemy of our shared ideals, and they will certainly never, ever begin to effectively engage with them. That is what has enabled the same relatively small clache of high-class shitheels over a couple of generations to foster the rise of Hitler, murder the Kennedys and MLK, kill Paul Wellstone, John Tower, William Casey, and Ray Laemelle, pull off the Savings and Loan lootings, Iran-Contra scandals, Clinton impeachment, 9/11, Iraq War, and repeal of the Constitution. Proving 9/11's real causes is the best chance ever to bring down the whole house of cards, but after all this, the Reich is justifiably contemptuous of the intelligence and the courage of the American people. If only those who deserved such a form of government were its victims, I suppose I could wash my hands and say the idiots brought it on themselves. But they lord it over us all, to the enduring, potential peril, at this point, of all life on earth.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

7. And this is the importance of challenging the "official" line

Ideas explored better than ideas ignored

Posted by: Mike M on Sep 29, 2006 8:59 AM
While there are certainly plenty of "wackos" among the conspiracy theorists, there are also plenty of people asking rational questions that the government ought to answer. Whether the answers point to conspiracy, or just general incompetence, the American public deserves answers to the questions that few outside of the so-called "9/11 Truth Movement" are even willing to ask. Tom DeLay bludgeoned Congress into agreeing to a "limited" investigation into the White House's actions on 9/11. Is Rolling Stone/Matt Taibbi really backing up that "less info is better" position? It's disheartening to see a journalist chastise people for asking questions, since that is the foundation of journalism itself. In addition, if one is going to skewer a group of people, journalistic fairness dictates that you put that group on its best footing first; the Washington Post did this in its "9/11 conspiracy" coverage, but Matt Taibbi has instead opted to pick on the weakest links (which I assume he has chosen to do because he figured it would be funnier). Personally, I think our funny "journalists" (John Stewart, Stephen Colbert) are plenty, but where are the investigative journalists? Do we really need a guy interviewing Kerry in an ape suit (as Taibbi did), or do we need someone who will ask the questions that others won't? I have no respect for a journalist who makes fun of citizens for asking questions, even if some of the questions are outlandish.

[many a good man]

8. You're absolutely right. Reason trumps ideology.

To be a true liberal means pursuing truth and reason. It means you work on facts and continually adjust your theories based on facts and feedback. Ideologues are Reason's enemies, whether they be right or left.

Some things, however, like interpretation and analysis are up for debate. Like candy bars. I hate to admit I often enjoy the back and forth.

[bryant69]

9. We are all in a tribe - it's our nature

You can no more decide not to be in a tribe than you can decide you don't want to be a carbon based life form.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ThomCat]

10. And if you're wrong about the supposed "fact"

you refuse to stand with the "tribe" of people who are first to get it right?

The majority is notoriously wrong about issues of discrimination and prejudice, even here. Your diatribe is rather self-defeating.

[Bluebear]

11. So now we have to follow YOUR interpretation of not just the Snickers ad but 9/11?

Do keep us informed of what YOU view as "bullshit" so we know what is the correct reality.

[blonndee]

12. The truth, huh? Well, thank you for that!

Oh, the irony:

"...It seems like increasingly, people are so obsessed in their own narrow view of the issues and the world that pragmatism and reality have fallen by the wayside."

AND

"I refuse to have it. Period, no exceptions. Bullshit is still bullshit, regardless of whether it's spewed by someone on 'our side.'"

:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

13. Just remember...

"One man's truth is another man's lies."

Very apt for the OP.

[Az]

14. Progress does not come to all at the same pace

Over time this results in various segments of society becoming increasingly reluctant to accept the new ideas that progress brings forth. Eventually these groups set their heels in the ground and start actively attempting to overturn progress. If at first they don't succeed using social methods they will turn to more drastic measures including discarding the social contract. At this stage it moves into cultural warfare.

From their desperation to keep their way of life in the face of progress comes a backlash that in turn can create a wave of anger from those who are benefitting or are on the edge of benefitting from the recent forms of progress. To be so close and to have it snatched away by those who advocate destroying their dreams can cause quite a bit of anger and resentment.

Thus as the social contract is torn asunder the various positions begin to take up defensive positions. No longer willing to consider the other's view it becomes a battle to see who can drive the other under first.

[dorkulon]

15. Hell yes and K&R for Matt Taibbi. (nt)