There's NEVER Been A Real 9/11 Investigation

[JohnyCanuck]

Note to mods: I'm posting this in GD instead of the 911 forum because the article, rather than delving into "conspiracy theories" surrounding 911, demonstrates and documents that the official 911 Commission's investigation has been publicly acknowledged as containing very serious flaws and is therefore discredited. Given the significance of the 911 tragedy and subsequent events, it is unconscionable not to have a full and thorough investigation of that event.

There's NEVER Been A Real 9/11 Investigation
by user Hero

A quick look at the government's investigations into 9/11 reveals that -- not only has there never been a real investigation -- but the behavior of government representatives in willfully obstructing all attempts at investigation comprises evidence of guilt. Specifically, in all criminal trials, evasiveness, obstruction, and destruction of evidence all constitute strong circumstantial evidence that the accused is guilty or, at the very least, not to be believed. 9/11 is no different.

SNIP

For example, the former director of the FBI says there was a cover up by the 9/11 Commission. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/11/17/122900.shtml

And the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials lied to the Commission, and considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn't bother to tell the American people. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR200608... (free subscription required).

SNIP

9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says "I don't believe for a minute we got everything right", that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first draft" of history. http://www.911podcasts.com/files/video/CBCSunday_20060910.wmv

SNIP

But let's back up and look at the 9/11 Commission in more detail. Preliminarily, President Bush and Vice-President Cheney took the rare step of personally requesting that congress limit all 9/11 investigation solely to intelligence failures, so there has never been a congressional probe into any of the real issues involved. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/inv.terror.probe/

The administration also opposed the creation of a 9/11 commission. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml. Once it was forced, by pressure from widows of 9-11 victims, to allow a commission to be formed, the administration appointed as executive director an administration insider, whose area of expertise is the creation and maintenance of "public myths" thought to be true, even if not actually true (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_D._Zelikow), who was involved in pre-9/11 intelligence briefings, and who was one of the key architects of the "pre-emptive war" doctrine. This executive director, who controlled what the Commission did and did not analyze, then limited the scope of the Commission's inquiry so that the overwhelming majority of questions about 9/11 remained unasked (see http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Philip_D._Zelikow and http://911blogger.com/node/3418).

The administration then starved the commission of funds, providing a fraction of the funds used to investigate Monica Lewinsky, failed to provide crucial documents, refused to share much information with the Commission, refused to require high-level officials to testify under oath, and allowed Bush and Cheney to be questioned jointly. http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,437267,00.html, http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/27/bush.911/, http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/26/national/26KEAN.html?ex=1123128000&en=..., and http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4862296/

http://politics.wikia.com/index.php?title=There%27s_NEVER_Been_a_Real_9/11_Investigation

[Bonobo]

1. This has become the subject no one wants to touch with a 10 foot pole.

If you say you don't think we got the whole story, you fear being branded a nutjob, a conspiracy theorist who believes in UFOs and tha Elvis is still alive.

If you say the story we got was correct, than the other side brands you as either a dupe who believes everything they read or as a "part of the problem".

I would suggest that people, if they want to begin to get at the truth, need to listen to eachother without labelling and try to arrive at a consensus as to what they KNOW THEY KNOW and what they KNOW THEY DO NOT KNOW.

After that, conjecture will come into the picture. But first a true list of facts must be seperated from theory and name-calling must end. Only then will there be any hope for reaching a dialectical resolution.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. For a subject noboody wants to touch...

...the 9/11 forum sure is a hoppin' place.

[TheWatcher]

118. Now, Now. Nothing for you to get your fragile mind worried about.

Go back to sleep. Your Rose Colored Matrix is still intact.

:eyes:

[Myrmidon]

100. I'm just glad there's even an "other side" that's equal in stature

The truth movement is doing well. A couple years ago, I wasn't interested in the subject, and now I'm about to host a radio show on Oberlin, Ohio's WOBC about 9/11 and other government crimes. The truth will prevail, and it will lead quite literally to a second American revolution.

[Virginia Dare]

2. The 9/11 Commission report isn't worth the paper it was printed

on as far as I'm concerned, not as long as the Saudi Government was able to get a large portion of it redacted. WTF, the Saudi Government has more rights to the report than the American people do, and we fucking PAID for the thing. It has no credibility whatsoever imo.

[bananarepublican]

113. It's even more amateurish than the Warren Commission investigating JFK's regicide! n/t

[SpiralHawk]

3. k and r - because the republicons have lied to America so thoroughly

about 9/11, and their failures and complicity, that educating even one person is progress.

MIHOP

[JohnyCanuck]

7. Now just for the record,

and in light of that provocative NY Post headline, Bush denies that he had advanced knowledge of 911 and is on record as asserting that any such accusation is an "absurd insinuation". You can watch an excerpt from a press conference where he defends his record on this matter right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLFWhyttlmU

[SpiralHawk]

22. For the record, here is the PDB that clearly warned Bush.

So, once again, Bush is lying. He knew. All corrupt insider republicon cronies knew, too.

[keepCAblue]

24. Bush also said he had no knowledge of the Plame leak....

The man is a sociopathic liar. As is everyone else in his administration.

[KurtNYC]

98. He also swore before God to defend and protect the Constitution

and we know how that turned out.

[wildbilln864]

99. but then afterwards he revealed...

that it's "just a goddamned piece of paper!"
:wtf:

[CJCRANE]

56. It was such a softball question

but it knocks * senseless, he just kinda flounders and stammers.

[zanne]

4. The truth seems to be buried too deeply.

I don't think we'll be able to dig it up for quite a while.

[keepCAblue]

26. The truth is in plain sight, like a giant steaming, stinking landfill

...that everyone drives by every day, eyes conveniently averted and windows rolled up to mask the smell.

Denial. It's not just a river in Egypt.

[CJCRANE]

58. Just ask three questions:

1) Where did the hijackers come from?
2) Where did the money come from?
3) Where are American troops fighting now?

There is a very simple disconnect between the first two answers and the third one.

[SpiralHawk]

75. "Where did the hijackers come from? D'oh." - Commander AWOl

"Would that be Saudi Arabia? D'oh. But they are my intimate buddies."

_ Commander AWOL

[TheWatcher]

119. The Truth is The Elephant in the room that most of this country

Desperately wants to ignore.

[petgoat]

120. Can't exactly blame them for ignoring it.

It's a can of worms. The country has been hijacked by a criminal cabal;
the republic is in danger; it is everyone's duty to quit their jobs and
devote full time effort to exposing 9/11 truth and driving out the
Bush regime.

People have lives, debts, and obligations. Truth is a hassle.

[wildbilln864]

121. yes truth is a hassle.

well put as usual petgoat!

and kick by the way!

[barbtries]

6. i so agree

this needs to be on THE FRONT PAGE OF EVERY NEWSPAPER IN THE COUNTRY.

for months now i have crawled across the world (virtually speaking) in order to learn about the coldblooded murder of 3000 people in one day - how many people over time? we'll NEVER know. this happened in our country, the one country with the "best" defenses. the one country with the "best" intelligence.

the one country whose citizenry apparently is devoted to keeping their collective heads up their collective asses when it comes to learning who killed all those people, and why.

and YEARS go by, and every fricking day more people die.

this new democratically controlled congress really disappoints me. there is puh-lenty evidence of malfeasance (enough, in my opinion, for murder charges to be brought and sustained, against the bushes, silverstein, the entire administration). It's all out there. and yet they have not moved to impeach Bush, reopen the 911 investigation with a TRULY impartial panel, and (and this part really gets me, and no one seems to say a word about it) passes LAWS based on the conclusions reached by the whores who conducted the sham.

INVESTIGATE 911. Peace.

[johnnie]

8. What's there to investigate?

A group of 20 or so terrorists from Iraq (and whatever country we want to attack) came to the U.S.; planned and carried out a terrorist strike by hijacking 4 planes and smashed 3 of them into buildings. 3 buildings were completely destroyed and the "brains" of our defense was heavily damaged.

Not one of our government organizations in charge of protecting this country had any idea whatsoever that these terrorists were in the country and planning to do what they did. The military, the CIA, the FBI and the bush administration never thought for one second that terrorists were going to do anything like they did.

These 20 or so men were smarter and more clever than our country can handle and our defenses can't even protect their own headquarters let alone anywhere else in this country.

Within a few hours they had all the names of the men that were involved and that's the end of the story.

There is nothing to investigate, there are no more questions to ask and just leave it at that! If not, then you are a nutjob and unpatriotic.... dig?



:sarcasm:

[barbtries]

11. see how long it takes for information

to be dispersed? more than 3 buildings were totally destroyed. i don't want to give the number as i could be wrong, but i believe the number is at least five. and i didn't know (or recall, if that is the case) about WTC7 until loose change. ignorance the 911 commission deliberately tried to nurture; since they could not explain the collapse of WTC7 by any method but controlled demolition (not to mention silverstein's public announcement to that effect), they just left it out of the report.

how weak. how wrong, wrong, wrong...

[mnhtnbb]

9. Excellent review of the evidence that the 'official' 9/11 story is full of holes

is in David Ray Griffin's "The New Pearl Harbor". I've read several books
concerning 9/11 and think it's the best.

[Flarney]

66. Absolutely - "The New Pearl Harbor" is the best

I've read five or six 9/11 books (included the Popular Mechanic's "Debunking 9/11 Myths") and "The New Pearl Harbor" is the best. Some have more info, but this one really gets at the crux of proving the need for a new investigation without unnecessary speculation. Also, it's relatively short and almost reads like a detective novel or something...VERY interesting and unassailable IMHO.

I will even buy this book (Amazon) for the first five people crazy enough to give a complete stranger an address to mail it to. :-) (seriously, though, I will)

http://www.amazon.com/New-Pearl-Harbor-Disturbing-Administration/dp/1566565529/sr=8-2/qid=1171480641/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6404669-8908916?ie=UTF8&s=books

[petgoat]

114. Also see Dr. Griffin's "The 571-Page Lie" which lists 115 points of

omission or distortion in the 9/11 Commission Report.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050523112738404

[A wise Man]

10. I can't figure out what is wrong

with the people and their representatives. When those two buildings went down almost identical in the same way, a common sense persons first thought would be, "SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE". If this was a fantasy COLUMBO would have figured it out as a CONSPIRACY.

[hack89]

12. Why wouldn't common sense dictate that

two identical buildings that suffered nearly identical damage would fall the same way? I would think that one collapsing in a radically different way than the other would be more suspicious.

[Bluebear]

13. What happened to WTC7, a quite dissimilar building?

[hack89]

15. The are eyewitness accounts of severe structural damage

and multiple fires. The fire department was monitoring a bulge in the structure and expected it to collapse.

[petgoat]

115. The fire department was reportedly monitoring a bulge in the

SW corner of WTC7.

But according to this photo, there was no SW corner of WTC7 in the floors
where the claimed bulge was observed.

[A wise Man]

20. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong

Two planes entering at two equally hightened buildings at two different points, at different time segments will not, I repeat, will not make those two buildings fall straight down giving gravity at equal points without them falling towards any surrounding buildings, especially when each steel grate is soldered in floor by floor, square by square.

[wildbilln864]

21. Not to even mention...

WTC building #7, which was not hit by plane and had only a few fires! Fire cannot cause a steel framed skyscraper to completely collapse! Never has! Period!


p.s.
To whoever gave me the hearts! Thank you, thank you! I appreciate them more than you know!
:hi:

[A wise Man]

23. Thank you very much

please tell that to #12

[hack89]

28. Come over to the 911 forum

take the time to go through the past threads- Wildbillss points have been debunked many times over.

For example:

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden:

but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/hayd ...

Deputy Chief Nick Visconti:

I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visc ...


Battalion Chief John Norman:

From there, we looked out at 7 World Trade Center again. .... but at the edge of the south face you could see that it was very heavily damaged.

We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/norm ...

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/boyl


http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-81.pdf

page 165

One Battalion Chief coming from the building indicated that they had searched floors 1 through 9 and found that the building was clear.390 In the process of the search, the Battalion Chief met the building’s Fire Safety Director and Deputy Fire Safety Director on the ninth floor. The Fire Safety Director reported that the building’s floors had been cleared from the top down. By this time, the Chief Officer responsible for WTC 7 reassessed the building again and determined that fires were burning on the following floors:
6, 7, 8, 17, 21, and 30.391 No accurate time is available for these actions during the WTC 7 operations; however, the sequence of event indicates that it occurred during a time period from 12:30 p.m. to
approximately 2:00 p.m.

The Chief Officer then met with his command officer to discuss the building’s condition and FDNY’s capabilities for controlling the building fires. A Deputy Chief who had just returned from inside the
building reported that he had conducted an inspection up to the 7th or 8th floor.392 He indicated that the stairway was filling with smoke and that there was a lot of fire inside the building. The chiefs discussed the situation and the following conditions were identified:

• The building had sustained damage from debris falling into the building, and they were not sure about the structural stability of the building.

• The building had large fires burning on at least six floors. Any one of these six fires would have been considered a large incident during normal FDNY operations.

• There was no water immediately available for fighting the fires.

• They didn’t have equipment, hose, standpipe kits, tools, and enough handie talkies for conducting operations inside the building.

At approximately, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building. 395, 396 The order terminated the ongoing rescue
operations at WTC 6 and on the rubble pile of WTC 1. Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At approximately 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.

[govegan]

45. Do you have any idea, even a clue, about the work

of firefighters? Do you have any idea, even a clue, about how many brave and dedicated firefighters have perished within burning buildings due to structural failure and/or being trapped by burning debris?

The fact that firefighters did not want to be in wtc 7 has no correlation at all with the way in which the building collapsed. That is basic logic and has nothing to do with cause and effect.

All visual evidence of the collapse and the post-collapse scene that I have scene bear no resemblance to the situation described in your posted excerpts.

I find no fault with abandonment of firefighting efforts in wtc 7, but what does that have to do with the building's collapse? There appears to be no logical connection.

Even the testimony sited can not deny that much of the building bore no visible signs of damage. So why the type of collapse that eventually took place? Why was it so symmetrical?

To use the safety concerns of the firefighters to try to sell blatant neo-fascist propaganda is abhorrent. The same neo-fascists who would spend an order of magnitude more money, time and resources to investigate body stains on a blue dress than what they would be willing to invest in investigating the deaths of dedicated firefighters and police is abhorrent. The same neo-fascists who would knowingly lie about the safety of the post-collapse environment at the wtc, who have exposed public servants and private citizens alike to very serious illness and death, would have no qualms about misrepresenting the collapse of buildings critical to their plans for war mongering and plunder. A complete and thorough investigation would not be in the interests of the goals and pursuits of the neo-fascist agenda. Those who aid and abet these criminal and treasonous elements participate in propaganda which is detrimental to us all.

[hack89]

77. Since the collapse was not symmetrical

but rather was a three phase, asymmetrical collapse, perhaps you should expand your research beyond video clips on CT sites.

Page 24 has the collapse sequence. Page 27 discusses potential collapse mechanisms.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/June2004WTC7StructuralFire&CollapseAnalysisPrint.pdf

Here is another paper that expands on the potential collapse and discusses damage and fires

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%20-%20WTC%207%20Collapse%20Final.pdf

Now perhaps we can venture out of the shallow end of the pool and discuss the matter on a more technical level.

[wildbilln864]

79. Yes of course the collapse was not symmetrical...

as your eyes are lying to you! Believe what the Bush/PNAC government agencies tell you! Disregard your eyes! :sarcasm:

[Ezlivin]

34. Come over to the 911 forum

Where you will witness people who believe the Official Conspiracy Theory (OCT) complain about being "tired" and "sick of" rebutting all the "stupid" arguments and questions that other concerned citizens may have.

One of the favorite words is "debunked", which in keeping with the Orwellian usage of words today means exactly the opposite.

And what is most interesting is that while people do show up in the forum to ask questions and engage in discussion, there is a subset who spend all their time defending the OCT. They use a combination of ridicule ("You're retarded if you believe that!" or "Anyone who watches the DVD _____ is just plain stupid."), character assassination ("What makes you qualified to question the government? Do you have a PhD in Structural Engineering?") and unflagging support for this administrations' story concerning 9/11. And these OCTers complain that their "work" is tiring and frustrating. Yet day after day and night after night they quickly descend upon any person who shows less than total support for the OCT. They do this over and over and all apparently out of a deep and undying love for the OCT as told by Bush, et al.

They demand that independent researchers come up with their own data without having the budget, the manpower and the supercomputers of the federal government. They demand that every person who questions the fall of the WTC be PhDs in structural engineering and have all of their data published in peer-reviewed papers. If a demolitions expert claims that the buildings were a victim of controlled demolition, then later retracts that statement, they demand that we only pay attention to the last statement made under implicit duress. They demand that independent researchers do this without access to the evidence so quickly spirited away by the government.

In short, they demand that private citizens do what the federal government failed to do: Make a clear, verifiable case for why the towers and WTC 7 fell.

[wildbilln864]

38. very well put Ezlivin!

Thanks and :hi:

[Buzz Clik]

43. Oh, I do love this one:

"What makes you qualified to question the government? Do you have a PhD in Structural Engineering?"

Every time I've posted in that forum -- every time without exception -- one of the regulars (or up to ten during a massive dogpile) will challenge any assertion that the collapse of the towers was predictable and a direct consequence of the way the buildings were constructed; no wild conspiracies required. When I'm stupid enough to attempt to engage in the debate, it ALWAYS devolves into my credibility being questioned.

So, if you don't like the "Do you have a PhD in Structural Engineering?" comments, I suggest you clean up your own house.

[earth mom]

89. Couldn't have said it better myself!

:thumbsup:

p.s. Notice how the OCTists repeatedly post on this thread too! :eyes:

[Twist_U_Up]

122. Damn EZ that was SWEET and spot on, Post of the day.

Post O da Day

[hack89]

29. The physics are simple

1. Fires weaken the steel.

2. The steel can no longer support the weight above them and give way.

3. The massive weight above the impact zone accelerates straight done due to gravity.

My question to you is this: what possible lateral forces would there be that would prevent the towers from collapsing straight down? It is simple vector addition - what is the horizontal vector?


Here is a good analysis of the forces involved:

http://www.erichufschmid.net/WTC_AnalysisRussell.html

[Buzz Clik]

57. You are 100% correct, but you're wasting your time.

These people are convinced that something sinister (other than 19 angry zealots bent on killing tens of thousands of innocent people) lurks behind this tragedy. All the science and engineering won't convince them.

These folks are a direct parallel to the anti-evolution crowd in Freeperville: belief is everything, science is only important when it supports their position.

[CJCRANE]

61. Ok, if that's all it was

("19 angry zealots") then who paid them? Where did the money come?

I'm no lawyer but I do know that anyone who hires a hitman is considered complicit in murder in the eyes of the law. Why is Bushco not interested in the money-trail?

[Buzz Clik]

63. zzzzZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZ.....

[CJCRANE]

65. It;s just a simple question

that would be asked in any routine investigation.

[Usrename]

70. Who cares if the money can be traced back to Rummy?

The Commission Report found that Osama acted alone!

[wildbilln864]

73. yet the FBI...

doesn't have him charged with 911!
:wtf:

[Buzz Clik]

81. Check films of the grassy knoll. The secret is there, so never stop looking.

Never never never.

[ftr23532]

106. beyond that, they need to investigate the money-trail for the larger Jihadist movement

granted, that will lead to the Muslim Brotherhood, the Saudis, the rest of the Gulf monarchies, the Pakistanis, and plenty of other "moderate" governments in the region, all of which are kinda sorta our allies. But it would sure be an interesting investion...especially the part where the new 9/11 Commission stumbles upon the GOP's whole http://fortherecordessays.blogspot.com/2006/11/part-4-american-brotherhood-we-just_11.html">Muslim Brotherhood/Grover Norquist/GOTV connection. The new commission might even stumble across the interesting terror-financing activities by this same network http://fortherecordessays.blogspot.com/2006/11/part-12-slick-powerful-brotherhood_11.htmlbefore] and http://fortherecordessays.blogspot.com/2006/11/part-13-its-jungle-in-here-and-it_11.html">after 9/11. Either way, the money-trail is a very interesting, and extremely imporant, avenue of investigation. [br />

[wildbilln864]

72. apparently, you have no basis for your opinion...

other than what you've been fed by thre Bush/PNAC CT peddlers.
Science doesn't support the BPCT!

[Buzz Clik]

82. LOL! the irony is thick.

Read the rest of the thread. You just committed the ultimate sin.

:rofl:

[wildbilln864]

76. uh uh!

1. Fires weaken the steel. ( a lie! The fires were not hot enough to weaken the steel, nor did they burn long enough!)

2. The steel can no longer support the weight above them and give way. (based on point 1 which is false! Thus rendered false!)

3. The massive weight above the impact zone accelerates straight done due to gravity. (you completely disregard the laws of inertia and conservation of momentum!)

:hi:

[hack89]

78. So the fires did not reach 1000 F?

interesting - care to support this with a link or two? What temperature do you think a typical office building burns at?

I don't understand your reference to inertia and momentum - care to amplify?

[Buzz Clik]

83. tsk tsk tsk. Such logic.

Do you always intentionally present flawed logic in the name of your opponents so that you can dismiss it without thinking?

In these particular towers, it was NOT the structural steel that fatigued due to the heat. Not the I-beams, of hyperventilating tinfoil wearers.

Think smaller. What was unique about the construction of the WTC relative to every NYC skyscraper that preceeded them? (Keep in mind that the WTC were built by a contractor new to the NYC game -- you didn't know that? Gee why is that? Didn't your chickenwire mockups make that clear?)

You guys are so obsessed with this shit, you're beyond educable.

[treestar]

91. I would imagine the fire safety rules of skyscrapers must

therefore be rather strict, since the builders would have known that fires could bring the entire building down - especially fires on the lower floors, which have to hold up the entire structure above.

Has anyone worked in a skyscraper? No birthday parties, no smoking whatsoever? It would have to be.

Also it's surprising more effort was not made to arrange for rescues from the top of the building - it would be a known fact that fires below could trap people above.

I'd think twice before taking a job or set of offices in any skyscraper and forget the higher floors.

:scared:

[johnnie]

49. The two building weren't "identical"

There was a small difference in height, and one was older than the other. Not only that, the damage to each building was completely different. Well, they both got hit by planes, that was about it. There are many other differences than just this, so it isn't really anything to do with common sense.

[Ghost Dog]

87. Different construction methods, ok, but THIS is more like the max you'd expect:

(Madrid Windsor Building fire):

http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/windsor_madrid.html
http://www.iklimnet.com/hotelfires/windsor_madrid_pictures.html





leading to:

[Twist_U_Up]

14. 9/11 Commission Report = Sham

The 9/11 Commission Report wouldnt even make good fish wrap.

[DaveJ]

16. My thoughts... It was bound to happen anyway

Regardless of who planned it, it was bound to happen anyway. Who in their right mind leaves a plane's cockpit accessible to the public? It's like leaving a loaded gun on the sidewalk. Some crazies were bound to do something like this, and the wackos could have just as easily been from Missouri or something -- would we then have gone to war against MO?? It's unbelievable that multi-millionaire aircraft engineers and project managers could be so stupid.

[Myrmidon]

101. But that's why we have NORAD's air defense system

So that once a crazy storms the cockpit, they can't just sail it into the World Trade Center. Hmm... I wonder what happened to air defense standard procedure on 9/11 anyway?

[pberq]

17. Thank you for posting this - this should be kept front and center

It's up to us the citizens to move this forward. The Dems in Congress obviously aren't going to do it.

Check out 9/11 Press for Truth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IHgFwYeB-Y

[chimpymustgo]

18. K and R.

:loveya:

[wildbilln864]

19. Thank you for posting this!

:hi:

[John Q. Citizen]

25. Yes, we need a grand jury with subpoena power and a large budget. We need a real

investigation instead of the whitewash cover up we got.

[keepCAblue]

27. We need an independent INTERNATIONAL investigative body

The U.S. government has proven itself far too corrupt to investigate itself. Even the dems in high office are either too afraid or too complicit to push 9/11 to its ugly conclusion.

[John Q. Citizen]

36. The US would never agree to the kind of monitoring and questioning it routinely

expects other countries to submit to. It would be percieved and open to attack on all sorts of political grounds, national security grounds, etc.

I could see an international inquirery, but I can't see one with the force of law actually occuring.

I think a US grand jury and a special prosecutor could do the trick. 4 years, 250 million dollars, and an open and honest agenda could do the trick. America could find out about such diverse questions as

Where did the money to finace the operation came from?

Why did the accused hijackers and their associates seemed to enjoy official protected status while here in the states prior to 9/11?

What does drug trafficing, terrorism, US intel, organized crime and 9/11 have in common?

What were our nations officials doing when on 9/11?

[Buzz Clik]

30. gawd. This shit will be brought up endlessly for the next 30 years.

Can you say JFK? Grassy knoll?

[wildbilln864]

31. It probably will indeed!

Unless there's a real investigation that answers the many unanswered questions! :hi:

[Buzz Clik]

33. snark. Real investigation ... as defined by whom?

JFK's assassination was never "really" investigated, right?

Obsession.

[Ezlivin]

37. How about as defined by the widows/widowers of 9/11?

If you really want an answer to your question, watch "911: Press for Truth".

And if you are pressed for time, peruse this list of questions: http://911independentcommission.org/questions.html

Perhaps if you had lost a loved one on 9/11 you wouldn't be so quick to label those who want genuine answers to genuine questions as "obsessed."

[Buzz Clik]

42. I've noticed one thing about these discussions --

Those who post these things over and over and over again have no intention of ever stopping and no intention of ever listening to other points of view.

Do carry on.

We look forward to hearing from you on a weekly basis for the next few decades.

[John Q. Citizen]

44. It's going to get worse before it gets better. I suggest you hide the thread.

[Buzz Clik]

50. I suggest you keep this tinfoil shit in La-La Land where it belongs.

[Major Hogwash]

71. Oh, that's not very nice. Do you live in New York?

Or where is it you got your attitude?

[Ezlivin]

47. Why do you waste your time? What compels YOU?

"Those who post these things over and over and over again" are trying to figure out the truth. They want answers to unanswered questions. To them the case is not closed on 9/11.

Why do you spend any of your time trying to "combat" these people? What do you hope to achieve? What is your motivation for sniping at those who want answers?

[Buzz Clik]

52. Oh, you do love to protest, don't you?

"Why do you bother?"

Jesu Cristo. You put this steaming horseshit in GD with the full intent of getting people engaged in a flame war.

Your feigned indignation is laughable.

[Ezlivin]

60. Yet you respond...

N/T

[Ezlivin]

48. I've noticed another thing about these discussions...

People such as yourself will pop in and say something like "snark. Real investigation...as defined by whom"?

Then someone will answer. Sometimes a multitude of people will provide answers.

What does the person who posed the question do? They move on as if they are simply above it all.

Did you go to the link? Did you do any reading? Do you now know the answer to your question?

[Buzz Clik]

51. Why don't you keep this discussion in Tinfoil Land where all your cronies hang out?

Every time you post this bullshit in GD, I'll be here to remind you people that you're fekkin nuts.

[Ezlivin]

59. Ah, the 9/11 cop!

Forgive me for questioning what your pal Bush did.

[CJCRANE]

64. Who paid the hijackers?

Just answer that one question and see where it leads us.

[ima_sinnic]

67. what's your leader trying to hide? why did he resist any kind of real

investigation?
ah, the life of a "debunker"--it's just so ... so tedious having to keep slapping down those pesky people who just don't buy into the obvious cockamamie bullshit that masquerades as an "investigation." again I ask, why do you CARE so very VERY much?? what do you CARE if some people want to believe what you call a "wacko" theory? why can none of the OCTers answer that simple question? your excess of energy to your "cause" speaks volumes about how insecure you are about that "truth" you try so loyally to pass off from GWBush--the truth is, you must protect your "truth" from any scrutiny at all, because the minute one barely scratches the surface, the ridiculous, blatant LIES, distortions, and BULLSHIT come shining through. I try to imagine how desperate and pathetically loserish a person must have to be to spend their entire time online playing whack-a-mole against posters who question the lies they hold so dear.

[CJCRANE]

68. And 9/11 isn't going to go away.

More and more people will ask questions as they learn about inconsistencies.

Even the Official report has 28 redacted pages...which begs the question: what's being kept from us and why?

[pauldp]

32. The administration originally wanted Kissinger to be exec director!

But pressure from the Jersey Girls (they asked him if he had Bin Laden family connections) forced him to step down.
Then when they found out his replacement Zelikow was essentially a NeoCon with close ties to Condi, they wanted
Zelikow to step down but he refused.

The 911 Commission was a sham!

http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

[wildbilln864]

35. yes here's a quote from Kissinger...

that I had bookmarked. I just goes to show what these people really think about us!

"American soldiers are dumb animals to be used in the furtherance of 'our' foreign policy. Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or 'promulgated,' that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this 'scenario', individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government. NAFTA is a major stepping stone to the New World Order."
-Austrian Jewish Dr. Heinz "Henry" Kissinger Communist recruiter of NAZI warcriminals to USA in Pentagon/CIA/NASA Operation PAPERCLIP, indicted warcriminal, picked by Resident George Bush Jr to control the Presidential Commission self-investigation of the terror massacres on 9-11-2001 http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2005/06/246400.shtml

[Myrmidon]

102. Is that quote real?

I agree those are his sentiments, but it reads more like satire to me.

[wildbilln864]

105. Yes, as far as I have been able to research, it's real.

:hi:
Welcome to DU by the way! It's a great website!

[Myrmidon]

110. Thanks, but I've been here a couple years

I used to have the account SupplyConcerns, but it got canceled after too much lurking and never posting, or something. I definitely didn't get banned. Or I just forgot the password.

[LibDemAlways]

39. The fact that the Bush Crime Family stonewalled an

investigation and then, faced with the inevitable, limited it's scope and underfunded it, speaks volumes. I was hoping a Dem Congress would make this a priority, but I'm not holding my breath.

[In Truth We Trust]

40. Impeach to preserve and protect the Constitution!

[Mrspeeker]

41. They needed a Icon like Pearl Harbor

even if they had to create it themselves!

[Balbus]

46. Who left the door open?

Damn loonies are running amok in GD. No wonder KOS stopped linking to DU with embarrassing shit like this on the front page.

[Norrin Radd]

53. Kos denied election fraud, as well. n/t

[pauldp]

69. Exactly. We all know how crazy election reformers are.

:sarcasm:

[Balbus]

74. Well, considering the only people convicted for election fraud in 2004

have been Democrats, that's probably a good idea also.

[Buzz Clik]

55. No kidding.

It's hard enough defending DU without these nut jobs running around banging spoons on their pots and pans.

[JohnyCanuck]

93. But don't you realize everytime you post on a thread

it gets kicked back to the top of the page and even more "loonies" climb on board or chip in with some more comments. My goodnes, there are so many loony DUers who've recommended this thread it's now at the No 2 spot on the greatest page. Good grief, what will the Kossacks think? :blush:

[Norrin Radd]

54. Kick + Recommend.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

62. 9/11 truth groups gave reems of information to Eliott Spitzer while he was

still NY's AG, and nothing, to my knowledge was ever done with that.

[Pooka Fey]

80. K&R

[Initech]

84. It's the Warren Commission all over again.

Bush really knows how to cover his tracks. His dad has experience in that sort of thing.

[JohnyCanuck]

85. Sounds like even Noam Chomsky might be climbing on board

the "lets have a real 9/11 investigation" train.

Noam Chomsky joins 9/11 “Jersey” widows in calling for release of 9/11 documents

February 14, 2007 -- Noam Chomsky has signed a petition written by the 9/11 “Jersey” widows calling for the release of classified documents relating to the 9/11 attacks. The Muckraker Report has contacted him by e-mail and verified that the individual listed on the petition is indeed Noam Chomsky. Chomsky’s name is #6432:

This appears to be a pretty significant change from Chomsky’s past views on 9/11, where it’s been his opinion that no further investigation into the attacks is necessary, and it’s our view at the Muckraker Report that Chomsky really deserves credit for taking this step. Chomsky has suffered more abuse at the hands of the 9/11 truth movement than probably any other figure on the left – he’s been called everything from a CIA mole, to a lapdog of the Neo-Cons, to an Israeli agent – and the sense I got corresponding with him was that he probably would have signed something like this a long time ago, if it hadn’t been for all the people lobbing insults at him. You know, the “left gatekeeper” accusations, etc.

http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id359.html

9/11 Widows Keep on Asking the Tough Questions

Muckraker Report Editor's Note to Reader: The Muckraker Report stands by the Jersey Widows in their fight to learn the truth about 9/11. We encourage you to sign their petition, which you can either do HERE, or at the link at the end of this article. As Lorie Van Auken puts it below, "if we were to get 15,000 names on this petition, we'd take it to Washington." Due to polls suggesting that nearly half of the country has doubts about the official story of 9/11, however, we at the Muckraker Report expect far more than 15,000 signatures.

by Joseph Murtagh

February 12, 2007 -- When it comes to 9/11, America right now is divided between two camps, those who trust the official account of the attacks, and those who, well, have questions. It's occasionally the case that the first camp will publicly denounce the second camp as a bunch of nutcases, and when this happens, it's usually the rowdier section of Camp Two, the Loose Change, bullhorn-wielding, "death to the New World Order" crowd, that takes the most heat.

What tends to get ignored, however, is the quieter section of Camp Two, and especially a group of widowed mothers from New Jersey and New York who over the last six years have worked harder than just about anyone to protect the country from terrorism. Few people realize that had it not been for the tireless efforts of the "Jersey girls" – Mindy Kleinberg, Kristen Breitweiser, Lorie Van Auken, Patty Casazza, and Monica Gabrielle – not only would the 9/11 Commission never have happened, but there most likely never would have been any investigation into what was the worst loss of life on American soil since the Civil War. No inquiry into our failed military defenses, or the collapse of the towers, or just why it was that President Bush sat in that Florida classroom for a full seven minutes after the second plane struck. No scientific reports, no effort to discover what went wrong, no hearings of any kind. No attempt to figure out the details of the whole who, what, where, when and why of the attacks. And again, what few people realize is that today, six years later, the Jersey girls are still fighting the exact same fight they were fighting on September 12, 2001, and for the same reason: to keep you, and me, and everyone we know, safe from terrorism.

http://www.muckrakerreport.com/id358.html

[wildbilln864]

86. Well...

it's about fucking time IMHO!
:hi:

[Myrmidon]

103. Word. I'll stop calling him a "left-wing gatekeeper" when he stops being one.

Please, grow some balls before it's too late, Mr. Chomsky! I understand that the evidence for 9/11 being a conspiracy wasn't great immedietly after the event, but today it's about as irrefutable as the JFK facts.

[LibertyorDeath]

88. "There's NEVER Been A Real 9/11 Investigation"

and there never will be imo.

[BuyingThyme]

90. kcik

[atomic-fly]

92. it seems

those apposed to an investigation are 100% sure that the 9/11 commission was
100% accurate. Don't ask any questions.

I would like a reinvestigation and I'm not sure about anything.
I am open to both sides, but my common sense leans to wards cover up in this
matter.
If the ball was in the other court, I would want to hear the arguments.

The 9/11 forum is so overrun it is hard to follow.

[wildbilln864]

94. Kick!

:hi:

[PhilipShore]

95. The 9/11 Commission never followed the money....

I did not see any actual investigation --- of the money --- that was involved in 9/11, or an investigation of those banking institutions that were involved in money laundering money for them.

I know this for a fact-- not just from reading the news reports -- but I actually filed a civil lawsuit against one of the banks, that was one of the main money laundering banks -- the terrorists used -- and when I would ask for the authorities to investigate, including the 9/11 commission they never did.

How do I know? Well, I would always get back boiler plate letters, saying they looked into it and nothing was to it -- but...the only way they could know that nothing was to it, was to question those involved in the swindling scam... and they never did.

The bank was one of the main campaign contributers to Jeb Bush.

[Myrmidon]

104. Not to mention the insider trading

Here's something I posted yesterday on Facebook:

"9/11 Anomaly: Insider Trading"

I’m going to be posting a series of brief articles about 9/11, each focusing on a specific lesser-known facet of the attacks that contradicts the official government story. This is for the benefit of my friends. Many of you, I believe, may not share my confidence that the U.S. government was complicit in 9/11 simply because there’s important information that you haven’t heard about yet. First, I will cover insider trading that occurred before 9/11, which was the first anomaly to shake my faith in the government myth.

You may remember that in the week or so after the attacks, 9/11 insider trading was a pretty hot scandal. The story was brought to light a week after 9/11 in a report by Don Radlauer of Israel’s Institute for Counter Terrorism, entitled “Black Tuesday: The World’s Largest Insider Trading Scam”. On September 19th, 60 Minutes commented, “the afternoon before the attack, alarm bells well sounding over unusual trading in the US stock options market”. The next day, Bloomberg Business News declared that
“this could very well be insider trading at the worst, most horrific, most evil use you’ve ever seen in your life… this would be one of the most extraordinary coincidences in the history of mankind if it were a coincidence”.

The facts presented by Radlauer in the his original article (in the words of author Webster Griffin Tarpley):

“…There was a 9,000% increase in United Airlines (UAL) put options between September 6 and September 10. Put options trading in AUL stock went up to 285 times the normal daily average on the Thursday before 9/11. American Airlines witnessed a 6,000% increase in put options in comparison to the usual average. In addition, there was a sharp rise in short interest in the shares of brokerage houses that had offices in the World Trader Center. Put options on Morgan Stanley went up to 27 times the usual level, and shorts of Merrill Lynch jumped to 12 times normal. This was accompanied by unusual buying of 5-year US treasury notes, US government securities which are considered among the safest investments for asset protection in case of some large world catastrophe.”

A put option is a bet that a stock will dive in a specific time frame. This is, of course, what happened to the stocks of American Airlines and United Airlines in the wake of the attacks. They were the only two airlines with hijacked planes and they were the only two airlines to have unusual put option purchases in the week anticipating 9/11. Of course, we can’t say that market activity is unusual unless we know the benchmark for normal purchasing. Fortunately, Allen Poteshman, a professor of finance at the University of Illinois, studied this for an article called “Unusual Market Activity and the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001”. After providing this benchmark information, he continued that the “abnormal long put volume” that occurred would have provided “the most straightforward way for terrorists or their associates to have profited from foreknowledge of the attacks”. The analysis, he concluded, “does provide evidence that is consistent with the terrorists or their associates having traded ahead of the September 11 attacks.”

Estimate of the profits from this 9/11 insider trading have ranged from 10 million to 15 billion dollars (Kyle Hence, “Billions in Pre-9/11 Insider Trading Profits Leaves a Hot Trail,” Centre for Research on Globalization, April 21, 2002). The government knows or could easily know who profited from these attacks, and they are choosing to protect them. Furthermore, it is broadly assumed that U.S. intelligence agencies monitor such trades in real-time, precisely so they can foresee terrorist attacks (The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, sources cited p.305), which implies that parts of the government could have predicted that American and United airplanes would have been used to attack the World Trade Center in the near future.

In order to find out who engaged in this insider trading, let’s just ask the banks through which the put options were purchased, right? Many United Airlines options were bought through Deutsche Bank, which was headed until 1998 by A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. Krongard went to work for the CIA after leaving Deutsche Bank, and in March 2001, President Bush made him executive director. Perhaps members of the CIA (and this is hardly the only close tie between the CIA and Wall Steet) are responsible for the insider trading, which may explain why the explosive story has faded quietly from view, without having been disproved.

The government’s official stance on the 9/11 insider trading was presented in the 9/11 Commission Report:

“Some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each trade proved to have an innocuous explanation. For example... a single US-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to Al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6…”

The issue isn’t whether the guilty parties had “conceivable ties to Al Qaeda”, it is whether they had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks. And of course, the 9/11 Commission Report was written to support a narrative in which ties between members of the U.S. government and the September 11 massacre can never be “conceivable”.

If you have anything to say about this, please leave a comment. I want there to be more dialogue.

[PhilipShore]

107. The Bank involved in the swindle with others ---purchased Deutsche Bank Unit in Va...

Is not the CIA located in Virginia? The same Bank has connections with Deutsche Bank in Virginia. See below

I just need any sort of information -- to get my case back in court. If anyone ever hears of the name Ed Morales, please let me know. He is a Cuban with Miami connections. He owned a large Mortgage company in Puerto Rico around 1960. He more then likely is a CIA spook.

In order to find out who engaged in this insider trading, let’s just ask the banks through which the put options were purchased, right? Many United Airlines options were bought through Deutsche Bank, which was headed until 1998 by A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. Krongard went to work for the CIA after leaving Deutsche Bank, and in March 2001, President Bush made him executive director.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-25403156_ITM


In Brief: SunTrust Buys Deutsche Unit's Va. Office.(Deutsche Bank Securities Inc.)(Brief Article)

Source: American Banker

Publication Date: 30-MAY-02

Author: Boraks, David

[wildbilln864]

108. a snip....

Let Bin Laden stay free, says CIA man
Tony Allen-Mills

THE world may be better off if Osama Bin Laden remains at large, according to the Central Intelligence Agency's recently departed executive director.

If the world's most wanted terrorist is captured or killed, a power struggle among his Al-Qaeda subordinates may trigger a wave of terror attacks, said AB "Buzzy" Krongard, who stepped down six weeks ago as the CIA's third most senior executive.

"You can make the argument that we're better off with him (at large)," Krongard said. "Because if something happens to Bin Laden, you might find a lot of people vying for his position and demonstrating how macho they are by unleashing a stream of terror."

link

[PhilipShore]

109. I questioned one of the Repukes myself....

a lawyer, a repuke lawyer -- that also works for the bank, whom was also involved in the swindle. He lied to me -- and said he destroyed all the records, concerning the estate of family members of mine, right around the time Bush made Krongard head spook.

I took him to the Florida Bar. I am not a lawyer -- but he was seriously upset. He said something that was really odd to me after the Florida Bar told him to send me the files, he said were destroyed. He said something like, "You better be careful, something big is going to happen up there, and your going to soon hear it."

And not to much later, I heard the actual plane of 9/11 fly over my apartment, and I heard the first plane crash.

[Myrmidon]

111. That's fascinating... any more information you can give?

Are you saying that you think there's a connection in the timing of him saying he destroyed your family's records around the time Bush promoted Krongard? What would be the nature of that connection? When you say he was upset, do you mean that he seemed worried about September 11 coming up, or that he was just highly perturbed that you took him to the Florida bar? Thanks.

[PhilipShore]

112. He was highly upset about me taking him to the Florida Bar

He was required to turn over all the destroyed records. For all I know this could be the reason for Watergate. The estate involved relatives of mine, that started -- and owned the first supermarket chain in New England.

A huge cover-up went on concerning the looting of the estate, very similar to Enron.

When you say he was upset, do you mean that he seemed worried about September 11 coming up, or that he was just highly perturbed that you took him to the Florida bar?

No, I at the time I did not think of a 9/11 type of event. It was just the threat, I don't think I was ever threatened -- like that. He seemed to be having a nervous breakdown -- or something. It was the way he used the words hear and up there. He is a lawyer, they generally deal in paperwork, having nothing to do with sounds that I would hear. Why would I care about the sound of paperwork he might send me?

I can give you the Index numbers for the Federal Civil lawsuits I filed in New York, and the Federal Court civil lawsuit numbers when the court in New York sent it to Miami.

I am not a lawyer -- but one of the briefs I filed is 50 pages, and that just briefly covers it.

[lonestarnot]

96. So disgusting!

[Beam Me Up]

97. Gee, I wonder why?

Something to hide, perhaps?

[Swamp Rat]

116. What happened to the anthrax investigations?

:wtf:

[CJCRANE]

117. Yes...just compare it to

the Whitewater investigation which dragged on for years and left no stone unturned.

[Twist_U_Up]

123. You never stop amazing me

BWAHAHAHA hilarious :yourock:

[wildbilln864]

124. must...

kick!
:hi:

[Bluebear]

125. kick