It's the end of the world.

[cali]

Or not.

I'm sure I don't need to point out that predictions of the imminent end of the world have long been broadcast by both the religious and the secular. The secular predictions usually hew to the end of a civilization, but it's still an end-time mind set.

Granted, the secular predictions of impending doom have a better track record than the religious predictions- which have proven correct exactly never.

But,

they're usually wrong.

Yes, we're a country in decline, but it's unlikely to be a sudden transformation.

Liberals are not going to end up in concentration camps.

George bush will not try and stay in power.

We will not become a full fledged police state like Burma.

The press will not be shut down like it was in Nazi Germany.

There will be election fraud, but they won't be able to steal it.

Things will limp along. They may *gasp* actually improve under a democratic president and increased majorities in the House and Senate.

Doom and gloom is most often dramatics, not reality.

Yes, yes, I know. I'm in denial or I'm a tool of the DLC/AIPAC whatevers.

[WinkyDink]

1. Would you, in 1999, have scoffed at: "Next election, the Supreme Court will hand the election to

the man who lost the Popular Vote"??

[LakeSamish706]

2. What I want to know regarding your post is, how do you know any of this?

The country, the world have never been in the state it is now and by that I mean that the leader of the free world is absolutely crazy... no question about it and he is twitching to Nuke Iran... This is a far different world than we have ever lived in before, and at this point nothing would surprise me...

[Clintonista2]

8. How do you know you won't sprout wings tommorow?

You don't, that doesn't mean it's not unlikely.

[LakeSamish706]

11. I would say it's more likely that Bush is going to blow the F***ing ...

world up than my sprouting wings.... If you pay attention to people like Naomi Wolf and others of her stature you will realize that this country, this world are in deep shit.

[Richard Steele]

42. Because all known history, experience, and laws of science preclude it.

You can HARDLY say the same about the likelihood
of our declining freedoms continuing to decline.

That's not "unlikely", it's happening right now.
And will likely CONTINUE to happen until some new
factor causes that to change.

[cali]

13. I don't know. But I do know some history and I'm

not bad at figuring the odds. We'll see about at least some of my predictions within a fairly short period of time. And we can compare them with the more common, dire predictions being made- like the current thread predicting bush won't leave office. If you had to put money on it, where would you slap down your hundred bucks?

[LakeSamish706]

18. With todays events by Putin my hope is that numb nuts is not crazy...

enough to hit Iran... (who knows?).. If he can cause something to happen that would enable him to declare Martial law, all bets are off.... My $100.00 would then go to him staying in office.

[Virginia Dare]

26. I really doubt he WANTS to stay in office..

he acts like he doesn't give two shits anymore, if he ever really did. Cheney is a different matter altogether.

[LakeSamish706]

29. The only thing about that is what may happen to him in leaving office...

ie: Being charged with war crimes, mass murder etc...

[Virginia Dare]

31. That's what the compound in Paraguay is for, my dear...n/t

[LakeSamish706]

32. I just grabbed this post from above and low and behold look what it says...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2071906

[Virginia Dare]

34. I saw that earlier...

I'd be worried except he doesn't seem to have any connect between what he says and what he does. Hopefully it was just another one of his off-the-cuff bullshit lines.

[LakeSamish706]

36. lol... I like that wording "doesn't seem to have any connect between what he says and what he does"

except that scares the shit outta me even more actually... ugh.

[Whisp]

38. you know shit.

I know shit. most of us don't know the shit really coming down.

by that I mean when it stinks, it's shit.
but shit is very natural. historical, biological, recyleable. we like to smell it over and over again. odd.

[cali]

44. you know shit well.

that's clear. Too bad your post is such a muddle.

[Deja Q]

3. So you're saying

US corporations are moving everything, including themselves at some point, overseas, gutting America, because - after peak oil - to keep sending tankers of oil to the North American continent/US would be way too risky? Centralizing everything on Asia would be the logical thing to do...

If you're into tinfoil fodder, of course.

[cali]

23. I'm saying events don't

usually unfold in a sudden transformational way.

[tavalon]

43. And actually, that's for the best

Bloody revolution rarely transpires exactly the way one would want it to. The innocent and the guilty perish together in a bloodbath of fury.

We are an empire in decline. We will end as all empires do, but I hope it is with a whimper and not a mushroom cloud (or a thousand of them).

[sufrommich]

4. I'm convinced

someone is using this forum as a springboard for a science fiction tome.:+
K & R

[LakeSamish706]

5. I certainly commend you for your positive attitude, but not buying that we have...

nothing to worry about. And yes, I do believe that you are in denial.

[cali]

35. But of course there's not one word about there being nothing

to worry about. There's plenty to worry about. I merely listed the things that are unlikely to happen imminently. Try reading the OP again, instead of reading things into it that aren't there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Hope for the best, prepare for the worse.

Not hope for the best, la la la la la.

[DemGa]

7. Our course is pretty well set by the corporate powers

They decide our candidates and make many of our laws. There's still room for some idealism, as long as it doesn't get too far out of line. Conservatism is a mental illness...these things won't change as we "limp along."

[Pathwalker]

9. And we all know Cheney authored the power grab out of PURE

principle! :sarcasm:

Especially with the CURRENT likelihood that it will result in handing his base their WORST POSSIBLE NIGHTMARE - Hillary Clinton as the most powerful President EVER. :rofl:

[kestrel91316]

10. No offense intended, but you are INCREDIBLY naive.

These people are truly evil. I put nothing past them. They care only about their own personal wealth and power, which depends upon perpetual war and destruction of the middle class.

Nobody thought Roe v Wade would ever really be at risk either. Let alone Griswold.

[cali]

12. No offense taken

But millenarianism is my field of study. Perhaps I'm not as naive as you think.

And if you didn't know that Roe v Wade has been at risk for over 25 years, I have to wonder where you've been. And Griswold won't even be revisited- particularly if a Dem is elected.

The world will likely limp along for the forseeable future.

[kestrel91316]

46. Roe has been at risk since the original ruling, of course, but now

we are faced with very real, imminent danger to it. The Dominionists have set their sights on overturning Griswold, too.

I happen to think we have two or three stealth Dominionists on the Supreme Court.

[bleever]

50. The world has been ending

since the beginning of history. That's been my attitude towards the need for mass panic and personal despair.

But at the same time, this is a period in American history that really does, in my opinion, demand a higher level of vigilance from citizens who care about maintaining the rights we expect.

Depending on who I'm talking to, I'm either the alarmist or the one trying to restore confidence in the resilience of Americans.

[cali]

51. Absolutely.

I couldn't agree with your post more.

[pampango]

54. That is a great post. I love your last sentence. n/t

[Control-Z]

14. Climate crisis? - eom

[cali]

17. That is the big one.

But from what I've read, that's not going to be suddenly transformational either.

[Virginia Dare]

21. No, but it will be a domino effect..

and we are far from being prepared to deal with it.

I think we'll muddle along for the next 20-50 years or so, and then things will start getting ugly.

[cali]

28. I think that's about right.

I'm sure you're aware that what I'm really addressing in my OP is the spate of "the sky is falling" posts that are so prevailant lately.

[Virginia Dare]

30. Yes, I'm not that hysterical...YET...n/t

[IDemo]

55. Peak Oil / Energy depletion may well be the "As Big One"

for the human population, even if a decline of carbon-based fuels results in an eventual leveling off of atmospheric CO2.

The impact of reduced oil exports and skyrocketing costs (for food and manufactured goods, as well as gasoline) might even put climate change on the back 'burner' within the next several years. Unfortunately, it's a subject that generally gets glassy-eyed stares when brought up in conversation. That, or protestations that the next "Manhattan Project" for alternatives will neatly rescue us before it's too late.

DU'er GliderGuider has much more on the topic -> here

[BornagainDUer]

15. Its the environmental issues which will do a large number of the

world's population in. It is almost certain, based upon the science that if the Gulf Stream, which is already slowing, is desalinated by melting glacial ice to fast and far that it will stop, sending the Northern Hemisphere into an Ice Age.

[Virginia Dare]

20. That's reason enough for all the doom and gloom..

but I don't think liberals will be locked up in concentration camps anytime soon. Immigrants from Latin America, that's a different story.

[cali]

25. If we elect a dem president and increase the majority in

Congress, that won't happen either.

[Virginia Dare]

27. I'm hoping that's the case..

there's lots of saber rattling against latino immigrants down here in Virginia. It's very disheartening.

[Martin Eden]

16. They won't steal it?

They stole two already.

[cali]

19. They may try. Just as they may have tried in 2006

but the numbers are big time against them this year, and they're the ones with a lame duck president, and a massively unpopular one at that.

[Canuckistanian]

22. I don't know.....

Given enough time and NOTHING been done about it, I can see at least ONE of your scenarios coming true.

I just hope you're right about ALL of them.

[Virginia Dare]

24. After Gore 2000, 8 years of Cheney/Bush, 9/11, the war in Iraq..

I just can't discount anything right now Cali, but realistically I think you're probably right, that nothing as drastic in nature as those things that you list are in our immediate future. I hope you're correct and we can go into an upswing in the next four years. We'll see.

[tandem5]

33. as we know it and, well...

I feel fine.

[lvx35]

37. Thanks you for that! One incredibly important bit: "no sudden transformation"

That's exactly the thing, all this shit goes down very, very slow. Its like Al Gore said, about the frog in the slowly heated pot of water not jumping out. I don't think the catastrophic attack and police state are coming (I hope)overnight because its so much easier to do things slow, even if we are moving toward a police state, and the slow stuff slips under the radar, because life goes on in the meantime and people forget.

[TahitiNut]

39. The world will do just fine, thank you.

It's the apparently failed experiment called "humanity" that has the problem.

[KAZ]

40. Once again, a good Cali post. But....

The "press" doesn't need to be shut down since the Corpartists have them in their back pocket. Second, election thievery has always existed, and elections will be stolen if they're close, on both sides.

[cali]

41. Thanks. I agree about the press, but there are

notable exceptions like Harpers and the Nation, and nowadays with the internet, those voices have a greater megaphone, and then there's the internet itself.

[BlueEyedSon]

45. Naw... that happened in 2000

[lonestarnot]

47. Hey UToole...

"There will be election fraud, but they won't be able to steal it." hmmmmf.

[Perry Logan]

48. It's mostly a white-guy thing. White guys always think the world is ending.

[cali]

49. huh? n/t

[tomreedtoon]

53. Yes! We white males are doomed.

Women hate us, either because we're not bastards enough to please them, or we are too bastardly to them. Nonwhites call us "whitebread" and hate our guts. It doesn't matter how nice we are or how we try to be pleasing, and it doesn't matter if we believe in social justice or peace, everybody hates us.

So I decided, a long time ago, that being hated is a constant in life, and I shouldn't try to please anybody but myself. Since I'm not going to be loved by anybody else, I might as well love myself. It's made my life a whole lot more pleasant than worrying about being critiqued by other jerks.

If there were more people like me in the Democratic Party, SCHIP would have been passed, New Orleans would not have suffered and our troops would be in the way home. But sadly, the Democratic Party is run by white wimps, worried about how women and Republicans regard them.

[EnviroBat]

58. You know what Crak-ah, I think you're right! n/t

[progressoid]

52. Ha - you forgot to call yourself a 'Good German'.

K&R :thumbsup:

[EnviroBat]

56. You seem to fancy yourself

quite the "Nostril Dumbass" of future predictions. I hope you are right, but for me I'll keep my eyes open while our constitution is being systematically dismantled by corporate fascism running rampant.

"Waiter, I'll take some of what cali is having, but with extra roofies please..."

[Marrah_G]

57. The sky is indeed falling! n/t

:sarcasm:

[warren pease]

59. Red capes and bulls...

As in waving one before the other. And I'm bullish on the decline and fall of the empire, so naturally I'm a bit more pessimistic than is the writer of the OP. Taking a few of these claims in order, here are my responses:

>Yes, we're a country in decline, but it's unlikely to be a sudden transformation.

If BushCo nukes Iran, you're likely going to see massive protest marches, possibly exceeding those prior to the Iraq invasion. If so, there are so many pieces of legislation in place to deal with domestic insurrection (and that's what they call it when the people try to practice a little democracy) that invoking any two or three simultaneously could transform this country into a national security state literally overnight. See NSPD 51/HSPD-20, Military Commissions Act, executive order on asset seizures of opponents of BushCo war policy and all the way back to both patriot acts. These laws are on the books now, along with executive branch governance by fiat. They just haven't been ratcheted up to full strength yet.


>Liberals are not going to end up in concentration camps.

Imo, "liberals" aren't politically effective enough to become first- or second-tier targets of repression. Take, say, Pelosi and Kucinich. Which would you consider a threat to the status quo? Yet Pelosi is a self-proclaimed liberal, while Kucinich is considerably to her left on any issue I can think of and is, therefore, an actual leftist.

I'm far more concerned about progressives, lefties, radicals and such who understand and practice political activism. If the above scenario takes place, that's who's going to end up in the camps. There's a lot of talk about these camps, btw, and whether they actually exist. I'm not convinced that they're already in place, although many claim to have seen them and have pix to prove it. But whether they're here now or not, I'm sure the regime is more than capable of tossing a few billion at one of their favorite no-bid contractors and watching camps spring up like mushrooms.


>George bush will not try and stay in power.

No, probably not. However, the neo-con loons have been after the presidency since Goldwater got crushed in 1964 and the nazi wing of the GOP forced the entire party far to the right. Look what they've accomplished: A network of "respected" think tanks inventing excuses for neo-con insanity; a docile and controlled media composed of shills, apologists and screaming ranting madmen whipping up blood frenzy for BushCo's target du jour; the massive and growing abyss separating the elite from the rest; devolution of relatively decent core American values into a soulless, consumption-based zero-sum society floating on a permanent mix of fear and anger; the imposition of fundie nut-case religiosity; the institutionalization of predatory lending practices to keep the peasants permanently in debt... and so much more sheer awfulness.

So they're doing quite well, despite the temporary damage BushCo has done to the movement. I submit that, after all the work, time, effort and money the PNAC maniacs have invested in turning the US into a banana republic of narcotized, uninformed, fearful, debt-trapped indentured servants, they're not just going to pack up and go, give a last fond wave to their lost power and slither off into the night.

So Bush won't try to stay in power but the neo-cons, led by Cheney, are another matter. It's hatred, money and the taste of blood that keeps them going. So I just don't see them leaving peacefully in Jan 2009. And martial law would work quite well as an excuse to suspend the 2008 elections. In fact, if they're allowed to take place, I think that along would be fairly solid evidence that the fix is so deeply in place that there's no way we're going to have a democratic president and an increase in democratic seats in congress


>We will not become a full fledged police state like Burma.

How about partially fledged... No we haven't. But as I noted in the first point, just because we've not crossed that line doesn't mean that the systems aren't in place and ready to go. All it takes is a catastrophic event of some kind to trigger the provisions of NSPD 51/HSPD-20, which defines a “catastrophic emergency” as “any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government function.” So that narrows things down.

Bush himself has sole discretion over what constitutes a catastrophic emergency and is solely responsible for maintaining "continuity of government," which is just code for call in the troops. At that point, it's martial law and game over for the great American experiment unless the citizenry decides enough is enough and takes up arms against tyranny. Or maybe we could just sub the revolution out to Blackwater.


>The press will not be shut down like it was in Nazi Germany.

No need, since five conglomerates control 80+ percent of all media content in this country. Which means, if you actually want to know what's happening in your own country, you have to look for sources published anywhere but the US. Hell, Pravda is becoming more reliable than the NY Times when it's reporting on politics and BushCo malevolence. And certainly the Guardian and Independent from the UK are still in the journalism business, while our mass media -- with damn few but notable exceptions -- is strictly in the infotainment business. Likewise Le Monde, various *.zeitungs, and various sources from New Zealand, Australia and around the Pacific rim.

The internet is the great equalizer, which is why I can't imagine it'll last much longer except as another medium for corporate sales and marketing. Too damn much contrarian thought going on in the blogosphere, most of which seems utterly opposed to the official government and corporate messages. Can't have critical thinking getting in the way of propaganda.


>There will be election fraud, but they won't be able to steal it.

Why not? It's certainly been done before, most recently in Costa Rica re the CAFTA vote. Just as in the 2004 presidential voting disaster, the Costa Rican exit polls all pointed to defeat for the highly controversial free trade initiative. And damn if the thing didn't pull out a narrow victory after all. Sounds like Diebold may have paid a sales call to the Arias government just in time to avoid a democratic "disaster."


>Things will limp along. They may *gasp* actually improve under a democratic president and increased majorities in the House and Senate.

Possibly, although trading one corporatist for another isn't my idea of progress. Assuming Hillary wins, all I can see is another four to eight years of "triangulation," which is just another word for adopting GOP positions on everything from the corporate wish list -- no taxes and no regulation -- to expanding the national security state and maintaining the US presence in Iraq. Hell, the "top-tier" gasbags couldn't even commit to ending the US presence in Iraq by 2013.

On the other hand, the unelectable and much reviled Dennis Kucinich -- man of principle, a model of consistency and one of the great political street fighters of all time -- says, "Yeah, I've got a time line. It's called NOW." But he's of course deemed unelectable because he's so very far out of the mainstream. Since the mainstream is now so far to the right that it's possible to claim to be a moderate and espouse torture, off-shore trials with no charges or defense counsel and "special renditions," I fail to see what's so wonderful about being in the mainstream. But that's another topic for another time.


wp

[Javaman]

60. And I'm feeling fine. nt