The Two Faces of DU

[Ghost in the Machine]

There's a thread here now that says "Bush and the Roadblock Republicans hate kids; uphold SCHIP veto".

Okay, as I've stated before, several times, I'm glad it got vetoed as it was a poorly written Bill that placed the burden of American childrens' health care squarely on the shoulders of smokers. That's NOT a smart move because the funding isn't built on a solid tax base. It's just a quick fix for what they want to accomplish. Smokers are decreasing in numbers every day, either by people quitting... or dying. Plus with all the anti-smoking legislation, there will be less people who START smoking in the future. The Bill would much more effective, and raise a ton more money, if it included a tax on alcohol purchases also. Another good funding source would be to add a $100 tax on every new vehicle purchase. What person buying a new vehicle is going to quibble over $100?? As a gun owner, I would also support a $25 per rifle and $50 per handgun tax on new purchases.

In this context of blaming "Bush and the Roadblock Republicans" and saying that they "hate kids", why don't we see threads that say "Democrats HATE the troops" every time they vote to fund the war again? I'm serious, because that is what I say about the republicans when they want WAR WAR WAR!! Republicans hate our troops and want them dead. What does that say about the rubberstamp Democrats who keep voting to fund the war?

Yes, it's great to be outraged, and it's great to put the repugs down, but we have to own up to what our own party is doing when they enable these "roadblock republicans". We can't keep blaming the republicans for EVERYTHING... though it is fun to do.

Ok, this was my thought provoking post of the week....

PEACE!

Ghost

[cali]

1. Yes, that's a brilliant suggestion.

It's not as if anyone around here ever criticizes dems for anything.

[Hydra]

2. It's all calculation

"Hang a big enough issue on the Repubs in 2008, and they'll sink like a stone."

I'd rather see these INSANE defense appropriations used on internal improvements and single payer healthcare...but apparently real support of the troops is lacking.

[42gnat1]

13. I like that saying

But we should be able to accomplish that with hanging 8 years of cluster f*cks around their necks.

[Ghost in the Machine]

27. Imagine what we could do with the money spent on this war so far...

I'm just wondering what's gonna be a "big enough issue" to sink the repugnantcans with...

[lonestarnot]

31. Their repugnant cans, stink'n assholes.

[Ghost in the Machine]

37. Lonestarnot!!

:hug:

:hi:

[lonestarnot]

43. Ghostie!

:hug: :hi:

[bobbolink]

29. "Hang a big enough issue on the Repubs in 2008....."

I so do appreciate being a sacrificial lamb...

I think I got outrage fatigue...

sigh...


:pals:

[Hydra]

38. Same

I so love the fact that I and my disabled relative are getting thrown under the bus "for the greater good" and "political gain"

Way past outrage fatigue...getting into realms of "Are you really my neighbor? I never knew you supported genocide..."

[bobbolink]

53. It's bad enough when your "enemies" do you that way... when it's your so-called "friends",

it hurts so deeply.

I know.... I started feeling very hopeless when I saw how very little Dems are aware and care.

:cry:

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Hydra and relative}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[Hydra]

55. No big deal

It's very soothing to know that you are the only one looking out for you- it allows you to ignore idiots that suggest otherwise and assure you that "the world is fair."

The world will only be fair when we make it that way. Hopefully we can find enough people that realize that they benefit by such a system.

[Jackpine Radical]

50. Indeed. All healthcare ought to come out of general revenues,

primarily income taxes. SCHIP is essentially a stopgap measure to take care of kids until we can get everyone covered. We could afford an awful lot of things if we quit supporting an insane war and a military budget larger than that of the rest of the industrialized world combined.

[Blaze Diem]

3. Good points and maybe THAT is the way the NEW SCHIP Bill

should be re-written and sent to Bush..HOw bout a monetary penalty for every time China sends our American kids toxic toys?
I say add your tax gifts and we may have a new & better bill for Bush to ponder over.

[Ghost in the Machine]

30. Thank you for *getting it*....

The old bill is dead in the water... what can we do to write a new one that is better??

[ClassWarrior]

4. So we have to be inflammatory and irresponsible...

...in order to hold our own people accountable?

:eyes:

Of course we need to own up to our own side and demand that they stand up to the thugs, but doesn't mean we have to become Rove's inadvertant operatives. Good intentions only go so far. Good criticism is what's needed to go the rest of the way. Not slime.

NGU.

[JuniperLea]

5. I'm all for a better bill...

But when so many children are still without health-care, I would have been ok with it for now.

The children do not have the luxury of time while they wait for someone to come up with and pass the perfect bill. They need help now! Today! A band-aid bill would have at least given them some immediate relief!

How many kids will die while Congress scratches their collective asses?

Sometimes a band-aid is better than nothing.

[CTyankee]

52. Thank you! My daughter is distraught, hoping my little grandson's

health insurance won't be taken away. He's just 3 1/2 and needs therapy for a developmental problem. He has occupational therapy administered thru SCHIP. Her husband is a musician, she is unemployed currently but looking for a good job that will pay benefits. They tried to get insurance but were turned down because my grandson needed glasses.

I'm hoping the state of California will have a suppemental of their own to pay for their insurance.

I'm not a smoker but I do buy wine. I would be happy to pay a tax on wine or some other non essential items if necessary.

I don't think the fact that the bill would be paid for by smokers was the real reason behind the vote, tho. I think it was just plain Repubilcanism, mean and nasty as always.

"The perfect is the enemy of the good."

[SoCalDem]

57. Alcohol should be included if tobacco is.. but the lobby won't allow it.

The sad fact is that this is the kind of bickering and non-action that you get when you start funding things by "demonizing-for-profit".

Children's health care is important, and should be a cost borne by the Whole..not a few parts.

The nation has a responsibility to its citizens, and should never relegate those obligations to this group and that. When that happens, it's too easy to rally the troops and shoot down whatever legislation does not appeal to the greediest on the hill.

The do this over and over, because to address the really important and "hard" issues, is just not something they have the stomach for. That's why we have such convoluted laws and why we keep putting bandaids on severed limbs..

the "hard" stuff costs money, and they want ALL our money to be available to THEM, so they can squander it the way THEY want..not the way we NEED.

[JuniperLea]

59. "The perfect is the enemy of the good."

Indeed! I love that quote! How wonderful that Voltaire in the 1770's is so valid today!

Holding positive thoughts for your grandson! No child should have to suffer because of lack of health insurance. I've raised three to adulthood... no grandkids yet, but I'll be very happy when that happens! And I certainly hope we get our act together before!

[Breeze54]

6. I thought the same thoughts also....

Thanks for saying it outloud.

[Ghost in the Machine]

42. I felt it needed to be said... and I don't honestly care WHO doesn't like it

:hi:

[The_Casual_Observer]

7. Oh, lets wait for the "perfect bill" then. Maybe they ought to let you write it.

[JuniperLea]

11. Who cares how many kids die in the meantime...

Sheesh! The perfect bill is what this country needs, dadgumit!!!

[Ghost in the Machine]

15. Ok, say the veto overide passed. Don't you think Bush would just

render it moot with a signing statement??

Yes, let's just keep wasting time writing bad bils that Bush will veto instead of trying to work out an acceptable alternative.

[JuniperLea]

20. No one is suggesting wasting time on bad bills

That is ridiculous, and no where near what I said. Seems that only a truly bad bill will make it past Bush. "Bad" being a subjective word... seems this has only been bad for children.

[Ghost in the Machine]

22. What can we do to make it a better bill that WILL pass??

That's what we need to concentrate on now, because the old bill is dead in the water.

I don't want to see people suffering and children without healthcare either, but we need an intelligent, sustainable bill that can garner the support needed to pass on a veto proof majority AND make Bush look like the asshole that he is if he vetoes or uses a signing statement to ignore it.

Where do we go from here? Do you see anything wrong with the bill or funding of the bill as I suggested in the OP?

[JuniperLea]

35. The GOP will NEVER go for new taxes

And the alcohol lobby is even stronger than the tobacco lobby.

The only way to get a bill past Bush is for his cronies to write it (or for Dems to write it whilst thinking like Bushies); everything else is futile. And THAT, dear DUer, is the epitome of a bad bill. That has been proved over and over again.

[Ghost in the Machine]

40. "everything else is futile"

and THAT, my friend, is exactly the reason we need to impeach bush & cheney both... right now! Everything will remain futile until this MAJOR ROADBLOCK is cleared out of the way....

Did you see the thread last night about "IMPEACH/SUSPEND"?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Thu Oct-18-07 12:49 AM
Original message
IMPEACH/SUSPEND . . ..
I think this remains a very interesting post by someone else here . . .



QUOTE . . .

From Judiciary In '74-"If The President Be Connected In Any Suspicious Manner With Any Person..."
Posted by kpete
The following is from a report written and released by the Judiciary Committee in 1974 in the aftermath of the Watergate crisis.


In the (Constitutional) convention George Mason argued that the President might use his pardoning power to "pardon crimes which were advised by himself" or, before indictment or conviction, "to stop inquiry and prevent detection." James Madison responded:

If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty...

.....................

Madison went on to say contrary to his position in the Philadelphia convention, that the President could be suspended when suspected, and his powers would devolve on the Vice President, who could likewise be suspended until impeached and convicted, if he were also suspected.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2074655
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[JuniperLea]

56. Exactomundo!

Impeachment is the only way to get this government back on track. To allow this administration to go further is to condone such activities! Our name has been horribly sullied by this madman and his band of cronies. Showing the world that we the people disapprove of their actions will go a long way toward repairing our standing in the world community. To ignore the need for impeachment is compliance. To make excuses that there isn't enough time, etc., is senseless. There is always enough time to do the right thing! Impeachment is the right thing to do!!!

[bobbolink]

41. So, what we do is put energy, time and $$$ into education PEOPLE about the+-

true issues!

We've not done a good job with that.

[Kajsa]

18. How about everyone contributing

to children's healthcare?

[Ghost in the Machine]

26. Like the Medicaid/Medicare taxes we pay already, but you have to jump through

hoops to actually qualify and get?

[Kajsa]

36. No jumping through hoops.

I'm not contesting your position at all.
My reply is to another post-#7.

Why the contention?

:shrug:

I happen to agree with you and Breeze.
Hell, at least she got a wave.

[Ghost in the Machine]

45. No contention...

Just a statement. Many people have to jump through hoops and wade through a ton of red tape just to get medicaid/medicare started. I'm all for the idea of everyone having to pay for this, but I'm afraid it wouldn't pass either....

Sorry if that came out wrong..

[Kajsa]

47. No problem.

I understand what you're saying.

What you proposed would work.

;-)

[FiveGoodMen]

51. Everyone? Raise taxes? No! Think of the chil... oops, doesn't really work here does it?

[Kajsa]

54. LOL-No, this is the exception.

:D :hi:

[Ghost in the Machine]

23. Let's see YOUR suggestions then, oh great swami. What do YOU have

to offer? Probably not much constructive since you're a self professed Casual Observer instead of an Active Participant....

Show me what you have to offer...

Thanks

[Tempest]

8. Taxes on smokers to pay for SCHIP is a sound proposal

Children of smokers have higher rates of illnesses and other health related problems than children of non-smokers.

Lower income Americans smoke at greater rates than other Americans.

As the cost of smoking increases, the number of smokers decreases.

Lower number of smokers means lower number of children who will require SCHIP services and the cost of the program goes down accordingly.

IMHO, this is good public policy.

[TahitiNut]

10. Excise taxes are regressive. Regressive taxation is never a 'good' thing.

Even before the last round of tobacco tax hikes, the economics of tobacco use NO LONGER justified any claim of a 'net cost' to society by smoking.

[Tempest]

14. We'll have to disagree

I'm a big believer in those who cause a problem pay for the solution to the problem.

That's why companies should have to pay for cleaning up contaminated water and soil, and smokers should pay higher amounts to resolve health care issues their habit causes.

[never_get_over_it]

34. Smokers caused the problem?

"I'm a big believer in those who cause a problem pay for the solution to the problem"

what exactly is the problem in this case - the problem is that low income or lower income children do not have health insurance - not that they are sick because they are around smokers. According to your logic only children who are sick from being around smokers would get the services

the reason using a cigarette tax is NOT a good idea is because as the price goes up it is more likely that more people will quit, less people will start smoking and the base of those paying the tax will decrease significantly and so will the revenues meaning the funding source for the program is not secure...I don't have a problem with raising the cigarette tax to partially contribute to paying for SCHIP but all of the revenues coming from this source doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[Ghost in the Machine]

46. Well said,..... thanks!

:hi:

[Tempest]

58. Smokers are a big part of the problem

Fewer smoking parents means less children who need to use SCHIP funds since children of smokers have higher rates of illness.

SCHIP isn't just a premium paid to insurance companies, it also pays for hospitalization and other costs.

[Kajsa]

19. Hear, hear!

:applause:

[bobbolink]

32. ALL sales taxes are regressive, but Dems have become quite fond of 'em...

"You'll wonder where the liberal went, ....."

[TimBean]

60. if you have money to waste on tobacco

if you have money to waste on tobacco then I don't see anything wrong with taking a bit more to help kids get medical treatment. Sorry, but the need to feed an addiction does not supercede the need for medical care.

[Ghost in the Machine]

61. How much coffee, tea or soda do you drink in a day?

Caffeine is an addictive drug also, you know. How do you feed your addiction?

Boy... the arguments grow lamer by the hour...

[TimBean]

62. none

when I drink coffee I brew my own. I spend about a two dollars a month on coffee. And if someone is spending two bucks a day on coffee what's wrong with adding five cents to help kids out.

[Ghost in the Machine]

65. I see, so you're willing to pay a whole 5 cents per day on a coffee tax

but condone another group, which labeled as "addicts", paying 61 cents tax per PACK to support the same program. So if a person smokes 2 packs per day, he's contributing $1.22/day, which is $8.54/week or $34.16/month. Wow! Your idea of "fairness" is astounding. Utterly astounding....

Do you drink alcohol? How do you feel about a .25 cents per can or bottle tax on beer & wine coolers? How about a $1.00 per bottle tax on a half pint of liquor or wine? $2 per pint? $5 per quart? $10 per fifth? $20 per gallon?? I know 3 people personally who have died from alcohol related illnesses in the last couple years. None from smoking, though 99% of the people I know smoke. I know 2 more that died from prescription drug overdoses in the last year. Shouldn't we tax them too, since they cause death & carnage?

This whole concept of blaming smokers for everything and placing the burden of America's health care on them is just.... well... STUPID.

Like I said, the SCHIP bill was poorly written and used a very unstable base for its support mechanism. Unless and until you can refute that, you really have nothing of value to add to this conversation except your feigned outrage at smokers.

[TimBean]

70. if a person smokes two packs a day

then they have money to burn.

I think the burden of this program should be put on those who can afford it.

[Waya]

9. Sorry...

......I'm a smoker - and I would not mind paying a higher tax on cigarrettes if it meant kids who need it have health insurance - it may not be perfect - but it be better than what we got now. Maybe it's not perfect - but it's a start.

[JuniperLea]

12. Hell, I quit smoking... I'd consider buying cigarettes to hand out to the homeless

Just to help support a momentary band-aid that would keep so many kids from dying every day due to the lack of health-care.

They can't wait for the perfect bill.

[annabanana]

16. I actually think "Roadblock Republicans" is a very useful moniker.

I would like to hear everyone use it on TV all the time from now 'til Nov '08...

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. I have no problem with that term, really. I like "Borrow & Bankrupt Republicans" too.

my point was more about the "they hate kids" part of it. That's just as bad as them saying that "we hate America" or that we're "anti-American" or "unpatriotic" because we're against the war.

:hi: annabanana

[whoneedstickets]

17. Worry FIRST about the sevice, then fret over the funding...

You are SO wrong on this. Clearly you object to paying the tax and want to concoct some weak logic for why it won't work. But when it comes to declining funding from smoking taxes who cares, once the Congress has approved the general policy of providing medical care to needy, but not 'poor' citizens we have a foundation stone to build on to advance a health care systems (children and old people first, some day all adults)

Your consternation over taxes puts your own narrow interests above the policy goals. You should be ashamed.

[Ghost in the Machine]

21. I think you should learn how to read, or at least comprehend what you're reading

You are SO wrong on this. Clearly you object to paying the tax and want to concoct some weak logic for why it won't work.

Please point out where I object to paying this tax. Thanks...

But when it comes to declining funding from smoking taxes who cares

Indeed... who cares! That's the problem with this country today

once the Congress has approved the general policy of providing medical care to needy, but not 'poor' citizens we have a foundation stone to build on to advance a health care systems (children and old people first, some day all adults)

Well, Congress HASN'T passed it, have they? SCHIP is done, over with, finished.. it's time to work on a new Bill that WILL pass.

Your consternation over taxes puts your own narrow interests above the policy goals.

"As a gun owner, I would also support a $25 per rifle and $50 per handgun tax on new purchases." Please point out MY "narrow interests". Thanks

You should be ashamed.

I AM ashamed.... of you and your ignorance that you have no shame in displaying for everyone to see.

[whoneedstickets]

66. Get off your high horse....

Clearly you are a smoker. It easy to find even recent posts by you railing against anti-smoking laws like they are hate crimes:


HERE'S YOU!


"18. You expected us to cower down to the jackboot thuggery and authoritarianism

of this? You support our rights slowly being taken away? What did you expect?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2020234#2020489

In another post you call an anti-smoker a fascist!

THEN you come out with some lame argument about "declining revenue" which is complete steaming pile of self-interest obscuring crap. You're a smoker, you don't want to pay. Well WHAAAAA... cry me a river.

The only thing worse than your histrionic indignation is the transparent and feigned 'objectivity' of your 'this is poor legislation' canard.

You know I might respect you if you 'manned up' and came out and said, "I don't want to pay for kids healthcare". I'd think you were a selfish SOB , but at least one with the guts to speak his mind. Now I think your a gutless SOB who doesn't want to pay for kids healthcare but doesn't have the balls to say it and instead pretends to be some kind of legislative design critic. "I'm opposed to this poor legislation", bullshit, your a militant smoking rights proponent who cares more about his pocketbook than progressive legislation.

[Ghost in the Machine]

67. I can guarantee you that I pay more in taxes every month than you make

So don't you EVER question me about what taxes I'm willing to pay or not.

That being said, your whole argument is based on your own ignorance and you should do something to educate yourself about a subject that you seemingly know nothing about.

You've done nothing but blather and spew, but you have yet to provide anything to substantiate any of your claims.

Yes, I'm a smoker.. big motherfucking deal! Where did I hide that? I also own guns, support the death penalty and drive an SUV. There's you some more material to build up another strawman or ten with. The issue isn't whether I smoke or not, the issue is that the bill is built on very poor foundation that will doom it to failure within a couple of years.

Stick to the issue, and provide something to refute my assertations. Can you? Please do something here besides screeching at your shadow and flinging your shit at the wall. It'll serve you well.

[whoneedstickets]

68. Oh, big rich guy? LOL

Guess I hit a nerve, though I highly doubt your claim is true.

Your 'poor legislation' argument was complete nonsense for several reasons:

1. Many countries have raised taxes on cigarettes precisely for the effect that may have on consumption as a health policy. Ergo: It is GOOD Health care legislation.

2. Cigarette taxes in the US are very low comparatively and if the experience in other countries shows us anything it is that they could be raised repeatedly to offset losses from consumption decline to sustain revenue levels (is this unfair to smokers, probably but smoking is a choice albeit not a very intelligent one).

3. Your alternative tax proposal are laughable since neither would pass since both would confront more powerful lobbies (auto, liquor) than the tobacco lobby but SURELY Mr.self-ordained-legislative-expert you can understand this dynamic.

AS for my understanding of the legislative process...

The point of this legislation was to enact a progressive children's health care provision. Once law, it would be very difficult to remove it (it is much harder to remove an entitlement than it is to enact one) and new revenue sources could be found. THIS my tobacco addled friend is called STRATEGIC legislation. No, its not perfect but its better than nothing which is what we have now and what you apparently prefer.

Anyway I've already devoted enough time debunking your disingenuous argument.

Guns, SUV, DP, against child health care. Perhaps a new forum is in order.

[Ghost in the Machine]

69. It's even lamer that you question my honesty, so I'll tell you what. Bring yourself

to my restaurant and I MIGHT give you a job as a dishwasher... IF I think you could handle the job on your own without constant supervision.

It sounds like you wouldn't last though.

And yes, I think a change of forums might be good for you. By all means, please do try to find one as you have still contributed nothing of substance to this one.

[lonestarnot]

28. Ughhhh wha?

[Breeze54]

48. What-The-F**K?

:wtf:

:silly:

[ruiner4u]

25. best post ive read in a while...

I had the same reservations about schip, and I like your ideas for funding it.. But you know THAT wouldn't pass.. That was be an 'unnecessary tax burden'...

I also agree with everything else you say... k/r

[Ghost in the Machine]

33. Thank you

We need to find something that WILL pass, though...

Any other suggestions?

[renie408]

39. About that 'blaming Republicans' thing...

As I understand it, the reason that Dems went to taxing cigarettes is that the Republicans wouldn't consider any other kind of tax to pay for the program. Taxing gun purchases would be suicide for Democrats. The NRA already isn't in love with Dems and would milk a suggestion like that for all it would be worth. And the Detroit lobby would cry about taxing cars, a market that is already under stress from the slowing economy.

So, in this case, it really is kind of the Republicans fault all the way around. That the bill ended up having to be written the way it was, that it got vetoed and that it won't get enough votes to get around the veto.

[question everything]

44. Glad to provide the 5th recommendation

for a common sense post.

Yes, we often are the mirror image of freepland.

And, I, too, while not a smoker don't like the idea of always raiding the smokers. What will happen if, some day, the taxes will work, smokers will stop smoking - will federal and state budgets collapse?

[Gregorian]

49. Thanks.

I had all but forgotten the tobacco related funding to the bill.

It helps to have this forum. We all work together to keep each other on top of things. I certainly forget faster than just about anyone on this board. I appreciate the reminder. It's hard to look past face value much of the time.

Part of the problem is that we're thwarted every step of the way. It's like we've become frantic to pass anything.

[Bluerthanblue]

63. I may lose the only insurance my son can get- and I

don't like funding it with a tax on an addictive habit which compromises peoples lives-

But---

I don't think that either * or the VAST majority of republic's really do care about the welfare of children who they perceive as being 'less-than' them. There are many Dem's who aren't wealthy- or living high off the hog, who don't begrudge children like my son, access to health care.

The reasons that are given for why * didn't like the bill, had nothing to do with how it was funded- hell, he'd probably like to tax cigarettes to give some corporation buddies some new kind of tax cut or golden parachute.

bush LIED- and continues to lie about what the SCHIP bill really was- which leads me to believe that he didn't read it- or is fine about blatantly lying to the country- that he already had his mind made up about it- and that being sure kids have access to medical care is NOT a priority for him-

I admit, I cannot be neutral about this- having a 'dog' in the fight- and loving my son as I do- loving the kids my son plays with, and the children I have watched grow and blossom who have risen from Medicaid/TANF dependency along side me, and mine- and stand on very wobbly financial legs even with the wonderful opportunity that Healthy Kids (our state CHIP program) offers.


I don't like that our state uses property taxes-lottery- and liquor sales to fund our schools either- but I sure as hell hope that people don't decide to quit funding schools because of the way they are funded-

I'm sick nearly to DEATH of the selfish, "I got mine" mentality that has taken over this country-
* isn't where he is because he 'earned' it- neither is his father- being born into a prosperous family is an entitlement that is no different than winning the lottery-
The recipient has power(money) that they have not earned- and sometimes power that they use to make other people's lives miserable- They also have no right to condemn others for our poverty.


peace back at you~

[KoKo]

64. The funding sounded good...Raising Tobacco to Astronomical Heights...

getting folks to "kick the habit" and since many states have already raised taxes on tobacco it would mean that "ciggies" could be Six Bucks a pack in some states with the State and Fed Taxes.

BUT...with the powerful tobacco lobby the Repugs weren't going to go far with that one...and I'd rather have seen Pelosi go after some of the Top Tier Billionaires to get her money rather than going after the Tobacco Lobby and piling on smokers.

Is smoking a bad thing...Yes...but should they who are already being taxed by their states bear the burden when just raising the taxes on Hedge Funds (lotsa money there...they aren't reporting that they should be) or rolling back a portion of the Taxes on the top On PerCent that Bush got rid of that Clinton had in place...would have seemed "fairer."

Nancy's tax seemed very "Moralistic" and didn't address the problem of those who make the most pay the least in taxes. Smoking is bad...so ban it....but don't keep raising the taxes on those who are already being penalized.