It's like Reefer Madness, only with meth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

So while out at lunch, I was reading my local alternative weekly. While perusing through the usual Savage Love columns, Red Meat cartoons, and prostitution advertisments when I saw something which disgusted me. Maybe you've seen it too. Those fine drug warriors which brought us such hits as "pot makes you play piano way too fast," "pot causes rape," "pot causes little girl roadkill," "pot causes 9-11," and "screechy stick figure cartoon with dog and ufo" are at it again. Seems this time they're on (to) meth, and they've taken advice from Operation Rescue. They're sticking large full page, full color ads of rotten teeth, and open festering wounds. Not real rotten teeth and wounds, mind you, but fake ones photomanipulated for maximum ick factor.

My first issue, after my ruined lunch, is that meth does not cause tooth decay. Sure, it causes serious meth addicts to focus their attention on something else, meth, besides dental hygiene. And lack of dental hygiene does lead to tooth decay. But the same thing happens with any number of other things- alcohol, prescription drugs, candy for fuck's sake. You don't see big disgusting pictures of tooth decay on the back of your kid's fruity pebbles box.

And then there's this stupid, stupid idea of scaring people with bad pictures into not trying meth. This logic reminds me of the idea behind the victorian era British soldiers covering their bullets with beef fat before they shot Hindus. If only we piss these people off beyond all possible conception, then they'll have to do whatever we tell them to.

But mostly I'm wondering what sort of Republican sexual deviant multimillionaire Harry Potter book burning bastard is laughing all the way to the bank with this shit. There's got to be some sort of tax shelter or grant or congressional page giveaway going to the fuckers who make this shit. Obviously they're not making them out of the kindness of their heart. It reminds me those horrible "Foundation for a Better Life" commercials I have to sit through before I can see the movie I paid for. Some grandpa hands his grandkid a caramel candy and they both smile at each other as some Hannah Montana knock-off screeches in the background. What the fuck? There's a recent one, it's supposed to be about childhood cancer, it's got a bunch of cancer survivor children out in a field playing T-ball, ain't that sweet, so who's making the cash? Oh yeah, there's a Walmart billboard in the background.

If this rant seems confused or disjointed, I apologize. It's all the meth.

[Initech]

1. And yet not one candidate will renounce the drug war.

Maybe Gore or Kucinich, but that's it. Romney will escalate it. There's too much money being made pandering false, anti drug issues and it needs to stop.

[slackmaster]

5. I guess Ron Paul is your man, EDO

:eyes:

[Initech]

12. I don't like Ron Paul.

I think he's an idiot.

[slackmaster]

23. Yeah, me too

Actually I think he's a wack job AND an idiot.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. Ron Paul is anti-choice and anti-separation of church and state.

If he has "libertarian" viewpoints on personal freedom, I'm a toaster.

[leftchick]

28. Gravel as well

all of the anti-corporate candidates.

[ellisonz]

73. Mike Gravel.

[AspenRose]

2. Mmmm, fruity pebbles. Who's Hannah Montana?

That's a good question, though: Who are the deep pockets funding this stuff?

[Warpy]

3. The main reason meth heads have lousy teeth

is because of the way they grind them constantly. What little diet they have is lousy, too, and there is no hygiene.

Meth affects body systems the way alcohol does, but meth is quicker. Face it, meth is a bad drug.

The only question is how many meth heads there would be out there if they could get access to other, less dangerous substances to help them cope with the pain of living in the present day US.

[hedgehog]

9. And Ecstasy users stick pacifiers in their mouths because?

[Richard D]

22. But . . .

. . . Ecstasy isn't nearly as addictive as meth nor do (the vast majority) E users do it on a daily basis the way meth users do. Tends to not lead to paranoia and in fact most E users seem to have a pretty good set of personal hygiene standards which includes brushing teeth, etc.

[hedgehog]

25. Which begs the question - is it the drug or the user?

I associate Ecstasy with well educated youth with disposable incomes who use it on week-ends. I associate meth with less educated, lower middle class people who often use it to work several jobs.

As for the paranoia

"On the bad side taking ecstasy can lead to panic, anxiety, depression, and paranoia."
http://www.homeandhealth.co.uk/medical/ecstasy.htm

[AngryAmish]

32. Some E users get pretty sweaty from all that dancing

I fun.

[Robb]

4. Here, educate yourself

http://www.montanameth.org/About_Us/index.php

"Republican sexual deviant multimillionaire Harry Potter book burning bastard" indeed. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Ah, a real-estate tycoon and rancher.

I ain't surprised.

[gmoney]

138. hannamontanameth.org ?

[KoyDetmer]

6. Huh.

I don't really understand how anyone could defend meth. That stuff will fuck you up beyond repair.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. LOL

Thanks, Nancy Reagan.

[Robb]

13. You're right

Meth is another harmless victim of the war on drugs. :eyes:

And, I'm done. I'm not getting drawn into another argument with ignorant fools on how meth is just like pot, or alcohol causes more deaths, or whatever. If you haven't seen it, you have no idea what it does and how bad it is. It's in a class by itself.

Again, educate yourself.

[High Plains]

29. Funny, that's what they said about heroin, crack, ecstasy, and...

...even once upon a time, tobacco.

[Buzz Clik]

80. Nicely stated.

Amazing how people who have no knowledge are so determined to expose their ignorance.

[yardwork]

141. Welcome to DU, and please ignore the rudeness.

There are a few folks here who ignore reality.

[hedgehog]

7. But, but, but - everyone KNOWS that meth ought to be outlawed,

even pot users are agreed about this! Meth causes child neglect and terrible violence and meth labs are a major source of global warming!

Nothing amuses me more than people who use one drug telling me how harmless their drug is and how harmful the other drug is. It used to be heroin, then it was crack cocaine, now it is meth. People were enraged when it was suggested that John Belushi had been using heroin. His cocaine use and alcohol use was acceptable, but to suggest that he had been using heroin?!?!


I'm still left to wonder if the difference between meth and Ecstasy has more to do with the users than the chemicals.

[rudy23]

20. There are different degrees of damage and addictiveness to different drugs...

it's not just grandstanding that causes people to do that.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. All drugs are not created equal. The great lie of the "drug war" is that the legal ones are okay and

all the illegal ones are all equally horrible. It's bullshit. The majority of drug war expenditures go towards the most popular illegal drug out there, namely pot. Nevermind that people don't overdose on pot, it was called "the most pharmacologically benign substance known to man" by a DEA judge, etc. It's a fucking gravy train make-work program for Drug Warriors, and they know they'll never get rid of it so it's a lifetime employment bonanza.

Meth is fucking bad. It's ugly. Cocaine and Heroin are bad, too, although actually in terms of physical damage to the body opiates rank fairly low. Junkies tend to harm themselves in other ways (or overdose) but short of that the actual drugs themselves don't do too much damage. Meth is fucking vile, though. It screws people up-physically and mentally- in a VERY short period of time.

Alcohol can be extremely dangerous, too. And if you're part of the 10% who physiologically can't handle it, it can be as bad an addiction as heroin.

[Runcible Spoon]

105. JESUS I'm sorry to say but drugs should not be ranked on a "social continuum"

the scientific community, concerned activists trying to help addicts, ruined communities, and my own fucking eyes have seen that there are stark and actual differences in how certain drugs manifest physiologically. If you want to factor in that certain cultural elements may predispose some to one drug and others to another, fine there is certainly validity in doing that and it helps us understand the multifaceted nature of addiction. However to wantonly dismiss with hyper relevativity a drug's potential for damage and abuse is all in the mind and body of the user and not in the actual characteristics and c chemical composition of the substance itself is IGNORANT and DANGEROUS.

[DaveJ]

11. Yeah meth is really bad, the worst drug in my experience

I've experimented with almost everything and even the small amount of meth I tried (in a few large doses) probably did permanent damage to my nervous system. I doubt those posters are exaggerating much.

I'm for legalizing most drugs, but I wouldn't want meth legalized.

[electprogdems]

14. omg - my rural area is in the midst of a serious meth

epidemic. You are out of your head if you think this shit is anything but evil.

[depakid]

15. Meth mouth is real alright

and it isn't pretty:

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=meth+mouth&btnG=Search+Images

From the ADA:

Oral effects

The oral effects of methamphetamine use can be devastating. Reports have described rampant caries that resembles early childhood caries and is being referred to as “meth mouth”.4,5,6 A distinct and often severe pattern of decay can often be seen on the buccal smooth surface of the teeth and the interproximal surfaces of the anterior teeth.4

The rampant caries associated with methamphetamine use is probably caused by a combination of drug-induced psychological and physiological changes resulting in xerostomia (dry mouth), extended periods of poor oral hygiene, frequent consumption of high calorie, carbonated beverages and tooth grinding and clenching. Some reports have also speculated that the acidic nature of the drug is a contributing factor.

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/topics/methmouth.asp

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

26. There is another effect as well:

Amphetamines screw up the calcium transfer system in the body(fibroblasts and fibroclasts), which results in some of the effects on dentition that we see all too often.

Any way you slice it, meth is an alarmingly debilitating drug. The effects on the brain, confirmed in imaging, are indistinguishable from schizophrenia.

This is the second "speed" fad of my lifetime. I thought the first one put the nail in speed's coffin. How sadly wrong I was.

[Blue_In_AK]

46. Some people are very surprised

to learn that methamphetamine was widely available back in the late '60s and early '70s. I witnessed it firsthand among many of my friends. In fact, there was a particular doctor in Denver at the time who would dispense methamphetamine with abandon to overweight patients. My first husband was a serious speed freak and had pretty much managed to collapse all his veins by the time he was 19 years old. I myself would occasionally dissolve it in water and drink it (yecchhhh!) just to keep up with him.

Nobody I knew had the alleged meth mouth, although many of them were seriously f***** up individuals. Maybe because what was available at the time was pharmaceutical grade and not cooked up in somebody's bathtub, who knows?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. Nah.

"Maybe because what was available at the time was pharmaceutical grade and not cooked up in somebody's bathtub, who knows?"

There isn't anything in the bathtub meth that would cause it either. Your friends probably just took care of their teeth. And I'm willing to bet there's no shortage of meth users today who's teeth are just fine.

I feel bad for the people who just happen to have tooth decay. Forty or fifty years ago, it was fairly normal for people over thirty or so to have lost all their teeth. Now people probably suspect they're meth users because of their appearance.

[Blue_In_AK]

58. That's true.

I was being somewhat facetious in what I said about the bathtub -- because obviously you can't cook in a bathtub, right? :evilgrin:

And I think you're probably right that there are meth users whose teeth are just fine. That being said, I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone, even though I myself did my fair share. I guess I'm very lucky that I never got strung out on anything, but moderation was always my motto (except for the psychedelics which I wasn't so moderate about :hippie: ).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. Well yeah, but you can't really make gin in a bathtub either.

Speaking of prohibitions...

[Blue_In_AK]

61. LOL.

You're funny. :rofl:

[Runcible Spoon]

106. I would burn your strawman, Bornagain...

if only he hadn't exploded in that meth trailer...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

110. What strawman?

What argument are you taking issue with?

[Runcible Spoon]

116. I may overuse this word...but being disengenuous is probably the most annoying

and pointless rhetorical strategy. Having sat in many PhD level seminars which tend to run for 3 hours a pop, anyone with half a brain can waste time and energy arguing this way. The only thing it proves is which douchebag is more bullheaded, aggressive, and least inclined to come to any sort of meaningful common ground.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. Three hour seminars?

I've never been to a seminar that lasted more than an hour, not counting questions. And what's a PhD level seminar? Somebody with a PhD level seminar? Somebody with a PhD talking? Or aren't you talking about oral exams, thesis defenses? Those will last several hours?

"The only thing it proves is which douchebag is more bullheaded, aggressive, and least inclined to come to any sort of meaningful common ground."

Well then, professor, why do you have an actual counterargument or rebuttal of some sort that you'd like to present? Or is it just more of this "ZOMG! YER PRO-MEFF!" stuff?

[Runcible Spoon]

122. you've never heard of a three hour PhD level seminar?

I wanna go to your school :eyes: a PhD level seminar is a class for only, UMMM PhD LEVEL STUDENTS! :think: With the occasional overachieving masochistic MA student thrown in for good measure.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

124. Oh, you're talking about a class.

A three hour lecture.

Yeah, the real seminars that grown ups give are usually about fifty minutes long.

Still, you've dodged my real question.

[Runcible Spoon]

128. they're called fucking seminars at this university. jesus.

hopeless thread. :bye:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

129. So in other words, no.

You haven't got any counterarguments.

[mvccd1000]

85. It's a VERY different meth today.

With so many of the precursor chemicals banned, manufacturers have turned to other, less effective, more harmful chemicals to make it.

If you think that ingesting sulfur from matches, lithium from rechargeable batteries, and ammonia from household chemicals is a great, harmless way to get your recreational high, go for it.

I was (to my great regret) immersed in that world for about three years as several friends of mine got into meth. Every one of them let go of every single responsibility and obligation they had, including children, mortgages, jobs, and car payments. Every one of them lost their children, their cars, and their jobs, and the one who owned her own house would have lost that had I not kept her afloat until she came to her senses. The pipe was more important than anything else to them.

Each of them looks about 20 years older than they did before their little three year vacation from reality, and one still has trouble with some nervous system functions.

Some of the people I met through them, who had been in that lifestyle for years, literally looked like walking corpses. They were the nastiest people I had ever seen.

Meth ruins lives.

[Blue_In_AK]

92. That's what I suspected

that it might be a different animal than the methedrine that we used to see .... which was bad enough, mind you. I'm not doubting at all the devastation this drug can cause. I'm out of that whole milieu now, thankfully. I've seen enough troubles with meth and crack that I never want to be around them again.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. Well then that's an argument for the decriminalization of meth.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Meth does indeed cause teeth to fall out

It also causes sores all over your body. They look like boils. And I know a girl with a permanent tick of her neck from a meth overdose.

Meth is not just a safe recreational drug.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And marijuana causes sterility, brain cancer, and deformed babies.

http://www.slate.com/id/2124160/

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. No it doesn't

And it is nuts to compare marijuana to meth and imply they are both relatively harmless. Marijuana - yes. Meth - no way.

I know a kid who got busted for cooking meth. His sister died in his arms from a meth overdose. You know anyone who died from a marijuana overdose?

Didn't think so.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Yeah, that's my point.

[SmokingJacket]

53. Boy, do you need some rhetoric lessons!

Just because the problems with marijuana were exaggerated/imaginary some decades ago does not mean that meth isn't some bad shit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. And just because problems with meth are exaggerated/imaginary...

now does not mean I don't think meth is some bad shit.

[LanternWaste]

87. Without trying to imply contrarian motives...

Without trying to imply contrarian motives, I'm sincerely curious-- have you ever used meth, (regardless of whether it's simply a social, weekend user or a hardcore user) for a period lasting more than six months or so?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

94. No, I haven't used meth.

Why do you ask?

[LanternWaste]

112. Because you seem to equate meth with pot...

Because you seem to equate meth with pot-- as though you believe the physical and addictive consequences of one equals the other.

There are a lot of ex-meth users (myself included) that have chimed in on this thread who disagree with that sentiment, yet you seem to continue to hold the position that meth is at best, nothing worse than pot and at worst, merely mild in the physical consequences it produces.

It seems to me that if enough people with first-hand knowledge agree with each other in concluding that meth is indeed quite a dangerous substance, that it might be somewhat mulish or rigid in minimizing their contributions.

However, I'm the first to say I may have inferred your position on this completely wrong...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

115. Not to people who actually read what I've written.

I compare anti-pot propaganda with anti-meth propaganda, yes. That's the same shit. Same sort of lies. Same effectiveness. And same people laughing all the way tot the banks.

[LanternWaste]

134. if it's actual or even implied truth

But on the other hand, if it's actual or even implied truth then I can't really see it as propaganda in the traditional sense of the word.

I guess I didn't read what you actually wrote-- I must've seen phantom keystrokes or something...

[jeffrey_X]

78. You're going to compare marijuana, a natural substance with meth...

which is chemically and artificially made and try to compare the two???

Go for it.

[Buzz Clik]

81. You're out to lunch on this one.

First time ever. :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

95. Did you read the link?

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

27. The sores tend to be caused...

By people picking and scratching at themselves, when they get the skin crawlies from a really good run of meth. Coupled with the somewhat lacking ADL skills in the average meth user, those small sores tend to get bigger, as they get infected and the user picks at them more.

[NNN0LHI]

17. Sorry but I have actually witnessed people destroy their bodies and lives with crank

I really have. I am against the war on drugs too, but crank is some vicious shit. I would not wish crank addiction on my worst enemy.

Seen a guy shoot some up once and missed the vein and his arm swelled up like a watermelon almost instantly. I thought he was going to die.

Stay away from the crank kids.

Don

[FiveGoodMen]

18. A few years ago, a local news station (yeck, already!) did a piece (!) called 'The Face of Meth'

It was about a meth user who got so depressed that he shot himself in the face, but lived (without much face left).

Now, that guy's drug use may well have contributed to his bad decision, but it was the face of shooting yourself in the face that was on display.

The drug may be bad, but it's opponents campaign against it is bullshit just the same.

And now I can't buy Sudafed for a stuffy nose without being treated like a criminal. FUCK!

Just for the record: THE DRUG WAR SUCKS!

[Stinky The Clown]

19. For sheer originality, I have to give this a KnR

But then I find myself ....

a .... understanding the rant, and

b .... agreeing with it.

[nonconformist]

24. I'm with you on the Reefer Madness ridiculousness, but meth is really some vile shit

I really think trying to compare weed to meth is quite a stretch. Weed is basically harmless and a natural substance, and decades of studies have still not managed to prove any serious effects from use. It's not chemically addictive and overdose and death due to weed is literally impossible. Meth, on the other hand, is full of really horrible chemicals that humans were never meant to ingest, it's highly addictive and can lead to death, among many other health problems... and meth mouth isn't just due to addicts not being concerned with their dental health. I mean, any number of drugs, alcohol addiction, poverty, ignorance, depression, and so on can lead to that. Meth mouth has a great deal to do with the horrible chemicals that are found in meth completely destroying the teeth.

[DemGa]

30. Meth causes dry mouth

and saliva protects your teeth. There's more to this than just poor hygiene.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. You know what else causes dry mouth?

Guess.

[DemGa]

35. Chain smoking, high anxiety

lack of fluids? Do tell. :)

[MindPilot]

38. I think "pot" is the answer he's looking for.

The idea being that the same dry mouth that makes you want a beer after a couple tokes on the bong is the physiological equivalent of a meth user's gums receding.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. meth causes dry mouth more than marijuana does?

[MindPilot]

51. Based on my personal...ummm...research, I'd say yes.

But OTOH, half of the data is well over twenty years old. :evilgrin:

[Runcible Spoon]

101. I dunno, most potheads I know...

would go get a drink of chocolate milk when the cotton mouth hits,and maybe go take a nap or play XBox. They do not frantically pace the house, freak out, and disappear for three days doing fuck knows what. I'm all for personal freedom with recreational drugs, but really meth is the dirtiest, most destructive drug I've seen, on par with this shit "Paco" (made of the dregs of cocaine production and smoked like freebase) that is ruining the working class youth here in Buenos Aires.

[Blue Meany]

31. Speed Kills

>My first issue, after my ruined lunch, is that meth does not cause tooth decay. Sure, it causes >serious meth addicts to focus their attention on something else, meth, besides dental hygiene

If this is the case, why don't junkies have such bad teeth, but meth addicts do? I've personally seen the affects of this stuff, and it ain't pretty. Speed kills.

[MindPilot]

34. That kind of comparison is exactly why kids don't heed the warnings

They tell you pot will make you stupid, which it doesn't, then tell you meth will fuck you up, which it does. The teen has already determined that A is a lie, and is left to logically conclude that B is as well.

From personal experience, meth is some really nasty shit. However, back when it first came about in the 80s, it wasn't nearly as bad because the precursor chemicals were different. But as those became harder to get and the cookers started to substitute different chemicals, meth stopped being hardcore speed and became poison.

Frankly I made a lot of money using meth because I could work for 36-48 hours straight. After a while it just didn't feel good anymore and I quit. But I have also seen more than one person go away on meth and never return.

It is some bad shit and if there is any substance that should be illegal, meth is right up there with depleted uranium in my book.

[hedgehog]

41. But, but but, everyone KNOWS that one whiff of meth and you're hooked for life!

Seriously, I don't drink or smoke. My drug of choice is caffeine from black tea and dark chocolate. I don't have time or money for anything else. I'm very lucky not to have ever started drinking; there are just too many alcoholics in my family. Having said that, I'm all for all kinds of free re-hab. On the other hand, I don't want to spend another dime chasing, arresting, prosecuting and incarcerating anyone for any kind of drug offense.

[negativenihil]

37. so now we're pro-meth?!

sorry, but i can't get behind this. i am no fan of the war on drugs - but at the same time i feel there are certain substances that should not be readily available. Meth is one of them. LSD and heroin are a few others.

let me put it this way - if i were king of america - my drug policy would be this - if it's a seed bearing plant that's unprocessed by humans, have at it. The second you process it, it should be regulated. wanna smoke a joint? have at it. wanna eat some mushrooms? have at it. chew on a coca leaf? please, by all means. but if you process that coca leaf, or poppy...

i await the flames.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Yes, that's right. I'm pro meth. Hey kids, try meth. It's cool.

But seriously, what are you smoking?

[negativenihil]

45. pot. you? n/t

[MindPilot]

43. No flame from me.

I think that's actually a damn good place to draw the line. I also believe if things like pot had not been demonized, we would never have seen the development of drugs like meth and crack.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. I think it's a ridiculous place to draw the line.

A natural source is OK, synthetic stuff is bad?

The most toxic substances on earth are natural products. Crack is a natural product.

[negativenihil]

49. sigh.

crack is a natural product?

please point me to the crack trees and bushes.

Last i knew the coac leaf first had to be processed into cocaine, then form there - crack.

seems pretty un-natural to me.

Anyway this thread smells fishy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. The cocaine that enters the system of a Nicarguan farmer from chewing coca leaves...

Is the exact same stuff that enters the system of the American smoking crack.

Yes, it's refined to a crystalline form from a plant leaf. In the same way sugar is refined from sugar cane.

It's a natural product.

"Anyway this thread smells fishy."

Why?

[negativenihil]

60. this thread is fishy for the following reasons:

1. you seem hell bent making meth out to be not so bad.
2. you seem to think crack is a naturally occurring item.
3. the knee-jerk reaction to an anti-meth ad (i'm sure the freepers are having a giant lol at us right now.)

I call shenanigans. what is your goal here? are you expecting to change people's minds? or are you trying to get some fellow DUers to speak up and be all pro-meth along side you?

again - i call shenanigans.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. I'm still not following.

"1. you seem hell bent making meth out to be not so bad."

I'm hell bent on enjoying my lunch without some jerk ruin it with anti drug propaganda. If I dispel a few myths in the process, so be it.

"2. you seem to think crack is a naturally occurring item."

Yes. Also sugar, caffeine, nicotine, and morphine. They're all natural products. Feel free to look it up yourself.

"3. the knee-jerk reaction to an anti-meth ad (i'm sure the freepers are having a giant lol at us right now.)"

Yes, I'm sure all the freepers are having a good laugh while cooking up meth in their kid's lunch box. Jokes on them.

"I call shenanigans. what is your goal here?"

Ultimately? Get rid of this stupid drug war bullshit.

"are you expecting to change people's minds?"

Some. Obviously not most. I'm somewhat amused at how easy it is to spread a myth with only some money, a media, and people who don't think critically.

"or are you trying to get some fellow DUers to speak up and be all pro-meth along side you?"

Do you know what a strawman is?

[negativenihil]

67. oh please.

no - i'm completely clueless as to what a strawman is. please educate me oh wise master :P

this is bullshit. pure and simple. show me a crack bush or kindly stfu. crack does not occur in nature. it is a man-made product. just like meth, morphine, heroin, lsd, and cocaine. Just because a few of the building blocks are natural does not make the end result natural.




do you know what that sound was?

that was the sound of me ignoring this retarded thread.

:banghead:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. You realize that crack is just cocaine, right?

And that cocaine comes from coca leaves?

Also, morphine comes from poppies. Those are a kind of flower.

Geez, science education these days...

[negativenihil]

69. WHY DONT YOU GET THIS

YOU HAVE TO PROCESS THE COCA LEAVES.

YOU HAVE TO PROCESS THE POPPIES!

how DARE you question my education. I've wasted enough time on this pointless thread.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. "how DARE you question my education. "

By your demonstrated lack of knowledge of phytochemistry.

You have to process sugar too, but it's still a natural product.

[wicket]

77. Do you know what Oppositional Defiant Disorder is?

:rofl:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. No, but I just looked it up.

Is it like shouting when one doesn't get their way?

:rofl:

[wicket]

75. "Anyway this thread smells fishy."

Isn't it obvious?

[MindPilot]

55. Now you're just being a contrarian.

But then that's pretty much how you roll around here, isn't it? :D

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. No, I've said this before on other topics.

Alternative medicine threads for example.

People have this myth that natural = good, artificial = bad.

It's really silly.

[MindPilot]

62. Well obviously it isn't quite that black & white.

I'm reminded of the talking head who commented that the Exxon Valdez spill wasn't that big a deal because "after all oil IS a natural substance". So is battery acid, but I'm not putting it on my Corn Flakes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. My point exactly.

Oil is a natural substance, and it ain't good for you. Neither is morphine, cocaine, or jellyfish toxin.

[DaveJ]

44. Absolutely

It's mind boggling how anyone can criminalize a plant! Technically though, smoking is a sort of human processing technique, but that's just a minor detail I guess.

[MindPilot]

47. Yeah, and roasting coffee beans could be construed as processing

but I digest.

[One Sweet World]

50. i concur

Any and every thing should be done to prevent meth use. I've seen the effects first hand. The graying of the complexion , the decaying teeth, the wasting of the body. It ruins lives and is unnatural.

I'm extremely liberal when it comes to drug use and laws but Tina is the devil.

[conscious evolution]

63. Thats not a bad idea.

Naturals sure have been a lot kinder to me than what comes out of Dr.Jekyll's kitchen.

The propaganda is pretty crazy too.

[Runcible Spoon]

102. I think that's a fair alternative...

chewing coca leaves is destructive on teeth too, however, but I don't think it's on par with meth abuse. It just stains them a very nasty shade of dark green when used habitually and chronically. That being said, it's perfectly legal for the locals in Argentina to chew coca, and I have done so as well (when in Rome) and it's not much more intense than a strong cup of coffee.

[Warren DeMontague]

65. I'm against the drug war, but meth is bad fucking shit.

And it does fuck people up, severely- fucks up their brains, fucks up their mouths.. It's like snorting or shooting up battery acid.

Frankly, I think the best advertisement against meth is meth users, themselves- and trust me, I've had experience with more than a few. Worked with 'em, knew a bunch of 'em, crossed paths with a lot of em, back in the day. It is a BAD fucking scene- and this is coming from someone who spent a lot of time following the Grateful Dead around, so I'm not pre-disposed to make blanket statements about how ALL drug scenes are "bad".

But meth is bad. Fucking ugly.

Like I said- best advertisement against meth is the truth about it; unfortunately, we've lied to two full generations of kids now with baloney about how the minute they smoke pot they will get date raped or their testicles will fall off, so big surprise they're not too inclined to listen to any public service announcement about how bad ANY drug is.

We spend $40 Billion a year on the "drug war" and MOST of it is aimed at pot smoking. I happen to think the first thing we ought to do is legalize, regulate, and tax pot, and adopt a harm reduction health based strategy (with fully funded treatment on demand) towards hard drugs.

Philosophically, I tend to believe that consenting adults should be free to do what they want with their bodies, insofar as they're not harming or endangering anyone else- but I'm really at a loss about shit like meth, which I *don't* think should be available at the 7-11. I also think it's interesting, from a sociological POV, that the worst places hit by the meth "epidemic" nowadays are places where the so-called "drug war" has been successful at keeping, for instance, pot out of the hands of people. So you see em doing meth, you see em sniffing glue or paint thinner, etc.

I think the most sensible thing this country could do, from a lot of perspectives, would be to legalize pot. Then we can talk about what to do re: things like meth.

[SweetBrad]

72. Meth can be some bad stuff!

Hey I LOVE drugs! I smoke daily and grown my own and drop a little X now and then but I have seen the long-term effects of Meth and it can REALLY be nasty! But as others have said, why in the hell should todays youth believe in the real dangers of this drug when all we have done is fill their heads with false bullshit about the evils of smoking pot for the last 50 years!

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Consistently lying to people is not a good way to convince them of anything.

Personally, I've been clean and sober for years, and I'm more convinced than ever that the drug war is an utter waste of time.

And remember, that's $40 Billion Dollars a year of your tax money, keeping dangerous potheads like Willie Nelson and the late Carl Sagan from recreationally smoking pot. That's where the vast majority of your drug war expenditures go.

[madokie]

83. first it was going off to the Navy

backwoods country boy who graduated from high school '66 and never having heard the word Marijuanna, next it was being forced fed the propaganda Reefer Madness in boot camp then curiousity set in and I just had to try pot, 39+ years later I'm glad I found it. I can tell a male plant from a female plant when they are still only inches tall. so what does all that say, Propaganda does not work, or didn't in this case anyway.

Meth is some bad stuff I agree. I thank my lucky stars every time I think about meth that I didn't like it from the get go and still don't or the last time I tried some several years ago I didn't.

[spanone]

79. gotta keep feeding those 'war on drugs' dollars into the machinery

[Buzz Clik]

82. Recognizing the dangers of some drugs is not the same as supporting the War on Drugs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. Supporting fake anti-drug propaganda is the same as supporting the war on drugs.

[Buzz Clik]

117. Fake anti-drug propaganda IS the war on drugs.

But not all the negative things said about drugs is fake propaganda.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. Yes, my point exactly.

These ads in my paper are the fake propaganda reefer madness type stuff.

[flashl]

84. IIRC LONG after oxycotin burned through rural America

increasing crimes and addicting thousands. Much later there was an outcry from legislators about meth but they made no mention about its predecessor oxycotin.

[dysfunctional press]

86. "meth mouth" is VERY real...educate yourself.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/body/#3

A common sign of meth abuse is extreme tooth decay, a condition that has become known in the media as "meth mouth." Users with "meth mouth" have blackened, stained, or rotting teeth, which often can't be saved, even among young or short-term users. The exact causes of "meth mouth" are not fully understood. Various reports have attributed the decay to the corrosive effects of the chemicals found in the drug, such as anhydrous ammonia (found in fertilizers), red phosphorus (found on matchboxes) and lithium (found in batteries), which when smoked or snorted might erode the tooth's protective enamel coating; however, it's more likely that this degree of tooth decay is brought on by a combination of side effects from a meth high.

When meth is ingested, it causes the user's blood vessels to shrink, limiting the steady blood supply that the mouth needs in order to stay healthy. With repeated shrinking, these vessels die and the oral tissues decay. Similarly, meth use leads to "dry mouth" (xerostomia), and without enough saliva to neutralize the mouth's harsh acids, those acids eat away at the tooth and gums, causing weak spots that are susceptible to cavities. The cavities are then exacerbated by behavior common in users on a meth high: a strong desire for sugary foods and drinks, compulsive tooth grinding, and the general neglect of regular brushing and flossing.


The extent of a tooth decay varies widely among meth users. A 2000 report in the Journal of Periodontology found that users who snorted the drug had significantly worse tooth decay than users who smoked or injected it, although all types of users suffered from dental problems. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that the degree of tooth decay is not necessarily dependent on the length of drug use. "ne gentleman I saw said he used it for four months and there was nothing except for root tips left in his mouth," said Dr. Athena Bettger, a dentist who practices two days a week at the Multnomah County Jail in Portland, Ore. "Whereas another gentleman I saw said he was using it for four years, and … I think three teeth needed to come out and he needed a couple of fillings because of the cavities."

Dentists like Dr. Bettger, who practice in America's prisons and jails, have seen some of the worst cases of "meth mouth," and state correctional facilities are feeling the impact on their budgets. In August 2005, National Public Radio reported that dental costs in the Minnesota Department of Corrections had doubled in the past five years, mostly due to the extensive dental work performed on former meth addicts. Although there are no quantitative studies to document this phenomenon, anecdotal evidence supports this trend. Dr. Chris Heringlake, a dentist in at St. Cloud Correctional Facility in Minnesota, told NPR that he first saw "meth mouth" eight years ago, and now he sees it every day. Dr. Bettger has also noticed this trend in Oregon: "The general trend that I am seeing is that there is a definite increase. … There are more and more teeth that need assistance and there are more and more needing assistance..."

[LanternWaste]

140. Additionally...

Additionally...

One of the ingredients used to make meth is hydrochloric acid and when meth is smoked, that acid rots the enamel of the teeth.

(http://www.treatment-centers.net/meth-addiction.html)

[Romulox]

88. "I remained silent; I was not a pothead..."

The overwhelming number of prisoners in American jails and prisons for drugs are there for marijuana, not whatever this week's media hype is.

I sure as hell am not going to stick my neck out for a bunch of meth heads after the Democrats, Republicans, and the boomers in general have spent the last 30 years persecuting pot smokers.

[distantearlywarning]

89. As someone who has actually smoked pot and done meth

as well as a bunch of other illegal substances, I have to say your argument is flawed.

Meth IS bad stuff. You'd know this if you knew any meth users or had used it yourself.

Furthermore, the fact that the government has lied to us for years about pot has absolutely no bearing on whether meth is or is not bad. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Meth IS bad.

And I say this as someone who would like to see the pointless, costly drug war end and many drugs legalized.

[Javaman]

90. It's a racket and has been so for decades...

they pick the new drug of choice to pour money into so the police depts can get their new gewgaws to hunt down drug addicts or bust the lab of your choice.

granted meth is serious shit, but the amount of effort (money) that they swill into it, by now should show some results but it doesn't and they don't want it to.

we invaded afghanistan to get rid of the eeeevil taliban and gave birth instead to a narco state that produces 90% of the worlds heroin. Accident?

It's a racket. A cottage industry. A money laundering operation. all rolled into one.

ray-gun found a way to bilk the american citizens by making them believe that their tax dollars actually go to help prevent drug use. but in reality, it has only increased their use.

money man, it's all about money.

wars of any kind are fought for only two reasons. resources and money.

[JuniperLea]

91. Shoot... I didn't know a damn thing about drugs...

Until my jr. high school passed out these cute, glossy, slick and colorful comic books with this hairy little guy who liked to try drugs! I really liked all the funny things they made his eyes do, and all the silly little head-arm-leg-jiggly-movement lines they put around him. They made the whole deal look fun! And the vivid colors! Wowwwwwwwwzer! I couldn't wait to get me some!

[LostInAnomie]

98. I've never known a pot grower to die from chemically burnt lungs...

... and the surrounding block having to be evacuated because their hydroponics lab was about to explode.

Meth labs cause that to happens all the time around here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. Yes, they do.

They use quite flamable solvents. Of course, that's an argument for decriminalization.

[Runcible Spoon]

103. just because SOME pot growers choose to use destructive

and environmentally unsound methods to grow pot doesn't mean pot MUST be grown this way. If so, tell that to my friend's closet. However meth CANNOT be produced WITHOUT exposing the producer to toxic chemicals and fumes, and I'm fairly certain those dingy exploding trailers are not stocked with the latest in sophisticated research-quality lab equipment and ventilation systems. I don't get you on this one, it's one thing to say that people should be free to ruin their lives with any drug they choose without rotting in jail and the government should provide free, quality rehab for those poor lost souls, but to disingenuously try to defend this as toking a jay on the weekend is preposterous and I wonder what you are trying to accomplish here. It's sad really, I've always admired your posts and have gotten much amusement from seeing you around.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

104. LOL.

"However meth CANNOT be produced WITHOUT exposing the producer to toxic chemicals and fumes, and I'm fairly certain those dingy exploding trailers are not stocked with the latest in sophisticated research-quality lab equipment and ventilation systems."

Sure it can. Chemists have been producing methamphetamine safely and cleanly for decades. Even clandestine meth labs, the big ones, produce clean meth. But then those get busted, and addicts have to resort to cooking it up in the back seat of their car. It's a cause and effect, bust the big clean labs and the dangerous small ops skyrocket. So if you decriminalized it, the big labs could come back and you wouldn't see exploding trailers anymore. Same thing happened during prohibition. You had people making dangerous homemade stills, causing fires, explosions, and toxic contaminants in the finished product.

"disingenuously try to defend this as toking a jay on the weekend is preposterous and I wonder what you are trying to accomplish here."

What are you trying to accomplish? If you actually read what I've written, you'll see I've never done any such thing. People keep saying I'm defending meth, and I'm not, so I guess it's just a strawman replacing an actual argument.

[Runcible Spoon]

107. read my post again.

I'm not talking about these "big, clean labs". You can justify this all you want but saying there is no way to produce meth without using dangerous volatile chemicals just makes your arguments foolish, ignorant, and somewhat DERANGED. Gotten enough sleep lately? :scared:

on edit: for one, I am all for decriminalization. But if the people we have in charge of educating our youth on the realities of drug use and abuse are on this same sort of twisted hyperrelative crusade as you, we might not be any better off than we are with the current "war".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

108. You can't pump gas without using dangerous volatile chemicals.

But can you do it safely, without blowing up trailers, or burning your kids, or ruining property values? Yes, of course you can.

[Runcible Spoon]

113. well unfortunately there aren't transnational corporations installing safe, clean meth trailers

Guess it's time to find some venture capital :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. Fortunately, you won't need one.

All you really need is a hood, access to waste disposal, safety goggles, and so on. Standard lab equipment. That's why there were big clean labs that were able to turn so much safe meth without blowing up.

Furthermore, there are plenty of pharmaceutical companies and chemical companies that manufacture methamphetamine for clinical and research purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desoxyn

[Runcible Spoon]

121. OOOO a wiki link, my favorite.

Now I can go down to the corner and buy a hit knowing that it was produced in safe, clean labs by nice white men in nice white coats.

Operation Rescue is a nasty, nasty organization, anti abortion usually IIRC but I think your efforts would be better exerted asking that particular newspaper, supposedly grassroots and progressive, why the fuck it would take ad loot from those assholes? You can't stop OR from spamming this shit but you CAN influence those papers to stop giving them another outlet. You should be happy to know that for my part, I will fire off a letter to the paper questioning the wisdom of giving any sort of credence to OR. Which paper was it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. No, but if you have ADHD you can go to the doctor and...

Oh, nevermind.

"Now I can go down to the corner and buy a hit knowing that it was produced in safe, clean labs by nice white men in nice white coats."

My whole point is that methamphetamine can be produced cleanly and safely, and your argument that meth has to equal exploding trailers is shot to pieces. Agreed?

"Operation Rescue is a nasty, nasty organization, anti abortion usually "

Yes, so is the drug war. Your point?

"I think your efforts would be better exerted asking that particular newspaper, supposedly grassroots and progressive, why the fuck it would take ad loot from those assholes?"

The newspaper, I suppose, is strapped for cash. Same reason they print the prostitution ads. Same reason theaters run that walmart cancer shit. All in all, I'd much rather see another preview, or more prostitution ads.

"You can't stop OR from spamming this shit but you CAN influence those papers to stop giving them another outlet. You should be happy to know that for my part, I have fired off a letter to the paper questioning the wisdom of giving any sort of credence to OR."

Jeez, what's with the reading comprehension?

[Runcible Spoon]

125. I was all ready to fire off my letter...

but you haven't given me the newspaper. There IS an edit for a reason, but nice of you to ignore my updated message.

ON EDIT: my argument is NOT that it "has to" be this way, just that it IS THIS WAY. This little nagging thing called "actual circumstance". It's sad, really, that you insist on fighting with so many of us who really (mostly) want the same thing: if addicts need to use, they should not be doing dirty drugs and if they come to the point where they want to stop, there should be resources to help them. And we want honest drug education not funded by whackjobs like OR, right? At least, I THINK that's what you want, right?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. How do you know I haven't given you the newspaper?

You haven't thoroughly read my OP.

[Runcible Spoon]

127. "my local alternative weekly"

I guess at this point I should just resort to my powerful psychic abilities. I'm done here. Enjoy your lonely soapbox, and grats on alienating people that might have actually helped you achieve something we all want. :bye:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

130. "I guess at this point I should just resort to my powerful psychic abilities."

You could have tried using your powerful reading abilities. If you had you'd have noticed I wasn't actually talking about Operation Rescue.

[JMDEM]

99. "Liberal" doesn't have to mean "stupid"

I bet you've never dealt with meth firsthand. No, I don't have to bet, because I know. Everything they say about it is true. It's the Devil's drug if there ever was one.

Drugs (legal or illegal) are not all the same. Duh. Pot IMHO is relatively harmless -- probably more harmless than alcohol. But because we were largely lied to about pot doesn't mean that all things said about drugs are lies.

Meth can, and has, ripped up entire communities. It completely destroys peoples' futures, hopes and dreams. And for each meth addict out there, there are at least 5 other people who are damaged too -- relatives, friends, neighbors. It doesn't seem to pay any attention to how well (or poorly) you were raised, how intelligent or dumb you are, or your "moral fiber".

The whole "war on drugs" issue is a side show to meth. The main problem with the war on drugs is that there are powerful interests getting rich by allowing the importation of drugs into this country (which also keeps the ghettos from erupting) and who simultaneously get rich from the privatized prison industry.

But, you see -- meth doesn't care about this. It just destroys lives. Making it legal somehow won't change this equation. It has to be stopped one way or the other, and one of the best ways is to scare the shit out of people who might be tempted to use it.

Do you know why the cigarette companies agreed to stop advertising on TV and radio in the early '70s? Because anti-smoking groups were airing ads graphically showing the effects of smoking, and it was extremely effective -- it WAS scaring the shit out of people. So the cigarette companies made a deal that if they didn't advertise on TV or radio, then these graphic anti-smoking ads would be basically squashed. When was the last time you saw one? The only place I can remember seeing them was in Larry Flint's Hustler. I'm not a Hustler fan, but I was at a recycling center one day and there was a stack of them and I leafed through a few to see what Hustler was all about, and they had these graphic groteque anti-smoking ads of lungs with tumors, people smoking through holes in their throats, etc.

Go live around some meth addicts then re-evaluate your position.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

114. No, in fact it implies intelligence.

Critical thinking. Literacy. And skepticism towards propaganda.

[JMDEM]

143. Never dealt with it directly, have you?

You're like someone who claims to be an expert on Africa after reading a bunch of literature, but who has never been there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

145. No, why do you ask?

"You're like someone who claims to be an expert on Africa after reading a bunch of literature, but who has never been there."

A relation of mine happens to be an expert on ancient greece, despite not actually having a time machine.

[Horse with no Name]

109. Meth does indeed ruin the teeth

Crystal meth is created by cooking the ephedrine or pseudoephedrine found in cold medicines or weight loss aids. The pills are crushed into powder, then blended to a steady boil with other solvents like starter fluid or Coleman fuel.
Think about that for a minute.
Then think about teeth enamel.

Dry mouth, one immediate side effect, is the result of depleted saliva glands, easily exacerbated by the acidic nature of the drug when smoked or snorted. Meth users often try medicating themselves with crazy, delicious liters of Mr. Pibb and Red Vines -- but syrupy, sugary candies and sodas only contribute to the decay. Meth cavities usually start between two teeth, trapezing from cuspid to cuspid across the network of enamel. The desire to grind one's molars together can easily result in multiple teeth snapping right out of your mouth and into the hot tub, or being left behind after a bite of your peanut butter sandwich. The meth mouth epidemic is widespread in prisons as well, where clean, sharp teeth are not always valued. Prisons are now obligated to devote a growing portion of their health-care budgets to emergency dental care, which costs taxpayers in every state a small fortune each year. Meth culture has emerged just in time to intersect with price reductions in false teeth and DaVinci Veneers.

The drug causes so much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth that the phrase meth mouth has entered the public discourse. The heated substance, when fully aspirated, swirls through the users' teeth and gums, inevitably leading to sores which never heal. Tooth enamel wears away quickly as entire rows of teeth dissolve to the gumline. It collects in the nasal passages which drain in the back of the throat, effectively corroding your entire face.

http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/drugs/methamphetamine/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. Did you read this?

http://www.slate.com/id/2124160/

[JMDEM]

144. Never dealt with it directly, have you?

You are like someone who claims to be an expert on Africa after reading a bunch of literature, but who has never actually been there.

[Avalux]

131. There's no comparison between pot and meth.

Meth mouth may be a fabrication of the war against drug folks, but there's no denying it's addictiveness and the destruction it has on the human body. Pot is neither physically addictive nor deadly.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

132. I agree.

Also, apples and oranges are two different kinds of fruit.

[LoZoccolo]

133. A friend of mine's cousin was friends with this guy...

...who murdered two people because he thought they were messing with or trying to steal his rodeo belt buckle collection or something. He was on meth. I don't think that making this particular drug available is a victimless crime. I also think that you are engaging in the same slippery slope tactics that people do when they justify the banning of marijuana based on the effects of marijuana, just in reverse.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. I'm uncle's cousin's roommate knew this guy that dropped acid.

He thought he was a glass of orange juice and he tried to drink himself. The next day his pillow was missing, and so was his california cheeseburger.

[LoZoccolo]

136. Do you want me to find the articles?

I can ask my friend for the specifics and look them up on Google if you'd like.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

137. An article? About some guy on meth that shot somebody?

No thanks, it's completely irrelevant to my point.

[piedmont]

139. It should be studied more intensely, but there's empirical and anecdotal evidence that...

"meth mouth" is a real phenomenon. Even without rigorous scientific testing, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to inform people that if they use meth, they will have a significantly elevated risk of decayed, broken, and lost teeth, based on what dentists and drug treatment professionals have encountered.
And according to a peer-reviewed, scientific report mentioned in the article you've been linking, the reason isn't just that meth users are notorious for not taking care of their teeth. It's that the meth interferes with the body's ability to protect and retain teeth, by reducing saliva AND inhibiting blood flow to the upper teeth.

[yardwork]

142. Sorry, but there actually is a difference between various chemicals.

Your implication that all drugs are equally harmless is wrong. The fact that alcohol, one of the most destructive, is legal does not automatically make some other illegal drugs miraculously harmless. Meth is a bad drug.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

146. "Your implication that all drugs are equally harmless is wrong."

Your inference that I'm implying such a thing is wrong.

[noonwitch]

147. Meth, crack, heroin, ecstasy are all bad news

If meth doesn't rot one's teeth, how come all these 20something meth users lose their teeth? I come from a family with bad teeth, I'm 43, and I just lost my first tooth to decay (that couldn't be saved by a root canal). Diabetics don't start losing their teeth until they are in their 40s.

Meth and heroin do cause tooth decay-they affect your metabolism, like some diseases do. Crack doesn't, but it causes paranoid schizophrenia if you use it for too long. This observation is based on my 20 years of experience working as a children's services worker, not on any scientific data.


I'm not big on the war on pot, because I see it as a way to increase tax revenues without targeting the average taxpayer. I am all for the war on heroin, cocaine and meth, because those drugs devastate communities.