The risks you take adopting a dog w/o a contract

[cuke]

The reason why rescue groups have such tough contracts is because they care about the dogs. The rescue group gets no advantage or benefit from repossessing a dog. All it gets is another dog to find a home for, as well as the expenses associated with caring for the dog.

But, if you don't like those onerous contracts, feel free to acquire a dog from someone who doesn't give a damn about dogs.

Get your dog from a breeder who keeps their dogs and pups in neglectful conditions. Breeders w/o contracts don't care about the dog, and they don't care about the genetics of the dog. So go ahead and take that dog home, but don't be surprised when you learn the dog has hip dyspolasia and skin allergies, and eye problems, etc. Hell, if it gets to expensive, you can just dump the dog on someone else the way the breeder dumped the dog on you

Get your dog from a pet store that has done nothing to socialize the dog, and kept the dog for it's entire life in a cage, where it also pees and shits. Good luck housebreaking that dog and don't be surprised if the dog grows into an aggressive dog due to non-socialization

Get your dog from someone who did nothing to train the dog, assess it's temperament for aggression, house break the dog, or treat (or even test) the dog for expensive health problems. Don't worry about the dog.

[MonkeyFunk]

1. Oh for the love of dog

can we let this go?

[lips]

5. Flame the collar, not pup nor leash.

[LostinVA]

2. Excellent post!

[Vanje]

4. ....for me to poop on!

[LostinVA]

20. No, it;'s an excellent post, period

[Vanje]

3. Wasnt one thread enough?

[aquart]

6. Good flaming grief.

What a pile of crap. My family has been in rescue work over 30 years and this officiousness does nothing to help anybody.

[Clark2008]

115. You and I don't oft agree, but on this one, yes we do.

I can understand not allowing an uneven tempered dog not to go into a home with children, but, for the love of Trooper*, to have a blanket policy that you don't adopt out a dog to ANY home with children under 14 is fucking STUPID with a capital STUP.



*Trooper was my dog of 15 years who died on June 8, 2007, the day my daughter was born. He has since sent me Charlie, a dog I rescued from the pound who is so much like Trooper it's creepy, but in a good way. Charlie has some liver damage from malnourishment, but is in good hands, now, and seems to be thriving, despite his failure to gain as much weight as I had hoped. He is gaining, but more slowly than most rescued pups because of his liver/kidney issues.

[Mike03]

7. As a former animal-shelter volunteer

I appreciate this post. We were privately funded and used to do a thorough screening of adopters, including asking for references. Some shelters even visit the homes to make sure they are good environments.

There have been too many horror stories of abused animals or inadequately provided-for homes. If people are allowed to adopt a pet on the spur of the moment, these animals often are returned or abandoned. Adopting animals is a very serious business--it is a committment.

[LostinVA]

11. I had to allow a criminal background check to be run on me

AND provide a vet reference -- for both the rescue and the breeder cats. All of the contracts had "no transfer" clauses. And, both breeder contracts had a clause stating the cats could be "repoes" if they weren't spayed by six months or if I ever declawed them.

[Mike03]

21. Interesting

Thanks for sharing that. Talk about "thorough." That is very thorough. Maybe I'll suggest that to the shelters I'm in contact with.

[LostinVA]

27. What they look for is any arrests, etc.., for any violent behavior or crimes against animals

Which, of course, is violent behavior. Domestic abuse, assault and battery, etc. I didn't -- don't -- consider it an invasion of privacy. We're talking about a living, feeling being being entrusted to me.

[OnyxCollie]

40. You know who likes to adopt animals w/out a background check?

Bill Frist.

[JuniperLea]

47. Did you keep families with children from adopting?

Did you adopt out dogs before they were spayed or neutered?

[Mike03]

58. Absolutely

In certain specified cases, of course. It would have been irresponsible and exposed us to legal liabilities if we had adopted out certain dogs in certain cases.

Not only that, but homes with children under a certain age were disallowed from owning particular dogs deemed child-aggressive by our behavioralist.

In some cases, dogs hated men and were adopted out to females.

Our shelter did not allow any animal to be adopted that had not been spayed/neutered.

I don't remember if we prohibited, but we definitely discouraged declawing of cats. It's been almost six years since I was at that shelter, so I can't remember the particulars about cats.

PS

Sorry for the late reply, but I didn't notice this post until now.

[JuniperLea]

67. That's what I'm saying

All those are perfectly good reasons to keep a dog from a family with children. Those are dogs with a past track record, or a breed with a record (I don't agree with that, but that's another story altogether).

Puppies are something altogether different. Puppies do not have a track record. This particular breed is full of energy, but hardly what you could call agressive.

[cuke]

76. Puppies aren't a blank slate

They could have inbred aggression. If the puppy wasn't kept with it's littermates, it can grow up with poor social skills, fearfulness, reactivity, etc all causes of aggression in dogs. The experiences of the puppy during it's first weeks of life can have a profound effect on the dogs temperament

[JuniperLea]

79. You are clueless...

You are grasping at straws to avoid direct conversation. I'm not talking about just dumping kids and dogs together and walking away, for crying out loud! It OBVIOUSLY takes time and adult supervision. Good bye. It's like talking to a wall discussing this with you. You have no idea.

[cuke]

82. So you don't leave children alone with dogs?

But I thought they were natural together!!!!

I'm not saying to keep dogs away from children. I'm saying there is a risk involved. Children don't "naturally" know how to play with a dog. Left on their own, children will pull on the dogs hair, grab it and wrestle with it, scream in it's ear, etc and puppies do not "naturally" know that the child doing this is not a threat

[JuniperLea]

83. You are splitting hairs and grasping at straws...

They are natural together! And no, it's completely ignorant to think you can leave them alone together RIGHT OFF THE BAT WITHOUT SUPERVISION.

God... forget it... you are infuriating. Needlessly obtuse and ignorant.

[cuke]

85. A large percentage of dog bite victims are children

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20010415/1567.html

Almost one half of all dog bites involve an animal owned by the victim's family or neighbors. A large percentage of dog bite victims are children. Although some breeds of dogs have been identified as being more aggressive than other breeds, any dog may attack when threatened...

...Each year approximately 4 million Americans are bitten by dogs, and about 800,000 of these persons (44 percent of whom are younger than 14 years) present for medical treatment.1-3 More than one dozen fatalities related to dog bites occur each year in this country; most of these victims are children.1,2 Although most dog bite attacks are not provoked,3 there are several measures that adults and children can take to decrease the possibility of being bitten...

...Most dogs never bite a human; however, under certain circumstances, any dog is capable of inflicting harm. The most common victims of dog bites are children, especially in incidents that prove fatal..."

But I guess you know better

[JuniperLea]

87. Sod off! I didn't even argue that point with you!

If you aren't going to be decent enough to read a post, you shouldn't bother responding.



I still have my fingers!!!

[Scout]

93. why does it take you so long to say goodbye?

if this poster is so aggravating, why don't you QUIT responding? you said goodbye twice now....

[cuke]

98. I've had gf's dump me with less drama

[JuniperLea]

88. Oh, the irony...

Welcome to Iggy Land, Newbie!

[Clark2008]

116. And that's fine.

The shelter I got my Charlie from called my vet and had us bring in our other two dogs to see how they'd get along with Charlie (fine, btw) before they adopted him out to us. My beef is a blanket policy of not adopting out dogs to any home with children 14 years or younger, especially in cases where the dogs don't mind children. STUPID.

FWIW, Charlie is a bit timid around my brood, but, my son has been trained to know how to treat a pet and my daughter is supervised and learning. Charlie is slowly coming to realize that not all crumb crunchers are after him.

[Mojorabbit]

8. All my dogs have

been wonderful. Two just showed up at my house including a greyhound that escaped while being taken to be euthanized because she wasn't fast enough. The dogs I adopted from out front of the petsmart, the puppies I have got from people who did not spay their dogs. All have been wonderful.

[JuniperLea]

14. Mine too!

I've never, ever had a problem with "teaching an old dog new tricks," especially house breaking! I paper trained a runaway German Shepherd puppy so well that he poo'd on a gum wrapper in the back yard! LOL!! He went from paper to back yard without missing a beat. My rescued Dobie/Shepherd helped teach my baby nephew to walk by letting him pull himself up with wads of hair while Cooper gently walked him over to the coffee table. Cooper outweighed Wolfgang by 100 lbs, and he was as gentle as anything.

I've worked with two very good rescue outfits... both spayed or neutered BEFORE adopting dogs out!! That is what caring for animals is about!

Ellen's puppy should have never been adopted out without having FIRST been neutered! That is just plain wrong!!!!

[Mike03]

9. K&R by the way

This is information and prospective pet owner should seriously consider.

[cuke]

12. Thank you

I know some people will see this as flame bait, but I'd hate to see people going to pet stores and backyard breeders for a dog, as that only contributes to the overpopulation of dogs, not to mention the cruel conditions, and genetic destruction, backyard breeders engage in

[Mike03]

28. I share you feelings

Almost every day I hear someone trying to give away a litter of puppies or kitties on our local radio station's "swap meet" program, and it is so disgusting. Many people (NOT ALL) put little or no thought into pet adoption, and the results are overpopulation, sick, injured, lost, abandoned, mistreated... Well, you know the story. It's a very sad one.

[JuniperLea]

10. The repossessed a dog that had already been paid for...

The erstwhile owner had spent money on neutering and other vet charges.

Then they get to turn around and adopt it out all over again for another 'donation'. Yeah, they made out.

Not all rescue groups are worth your angst. Some are run by worthless creeps who don't care about the animals as much as they care about being in control.

[cuke]

13. No, the dog wasn't paid for

The adoptee's make a donation to defray the costs. If the adoptee returns the dog, they do not get a refund because they did not pay for the dog

[JuniperLea]

17. Did you read the story or listen to any of this?

There was a donation, and there was a lot spent on that dog for neutering and socialization training, which failed. The dog had $3000 spent on it!!! That's not chump change!

So the puppy is better by $3k's worth... that is grand theft in my book.

[cuke]

39. That's the risk you take when you get a dog

That is my point!!

Getting a dog is a risky vernture, that is, so long as you care about the dog. It's risky no matter how and where you get the dog. And Ellen knew the risks going into it. But don't you think it's less risky to get the dog from someone who cares about the dogs welfare?

Dogs are living and sentient. They have emotions and thought. Just because you spend money on a dog that doesn't mean you can place it with whomever you choose and forget about it. Not when it poses a risk to the dog and the children involved and not when you've signed a contract forbidding that

[JuniperLea]

45. Yes, but I'm NOT convinced this particular group fits that category

To allow an animal to be adopted who has NOT been spayed or neutered smacks of bad practice to me! And to go to the public and say you're pissed because someone isn't following your rules (not LAWS, mind you) smacks of power play and nothing more.

I'm not convinced this particular rescue group is on the up and up; I disagree with their rule and I disagree with how they went about retrieving the dog.

The rule is completely bogus and idiotic! Children and dogs are a natural pair! It's good for children to have dogs and it's good for dogs to have children. Had this been a very old dog, snippy and set in his or her ways, I can understand not wanting it to go to a home with children. But to me, a rule that keeps all the dogs away from children is stupid and just plain WRONG!!

I'm all for vetting a family, which is what this agency should have done instead of jumping in and taking the dog no questions asked.

[cuke]

56. Many rescue groups do that

but they require that the adopted family have the dog spayed/nuetered within a certain time frame. In addition, I really didn't want this to turn into a thread about this one particular.I alsothink her rules were a bit much, but I'd rather adopt a dog from a loon thst cares than a bastard who doesn't

As far as the age limit goes, I think 14 is high. 10 is usually the limit IME. But children and dogs are not natural companions. When a dog bites a person, that person us usually a child.

[JuniperLea]

59. We're talking about a puppy here!

Dogs and puppies are completely different. Dogs who are old, snippy, or known biters should never go to a family with children. Puppies should go to whomever is proven to have the proper facility, background, and a good reputation with a vet.

Like I've said, in all my years I have never, ever seen a rescue operation that truly cared about dogs and cats let them go without being spayed or neutered.

I have three kids and I've helped raise plenty more. I'm from a family of four kids, and a set of 10 grandkids, in a family that counts more than 400 people living in the US... we ALL have dogs. We have ALL had dogs since we were children. To me a child without a dog is the most tragic thing in the world other than a child without a home.

Dogs and children aren't natural companions? Puhleeeez! That is nonsense! Puppies and children are the perfect pair! They both learn to respect each other and care for each other.

I'm just shocked to read something like that from a supposed dog person. Seriously. Ludicrous.

[cuke]

70. Puppies are more likely to bite than an adult dog

re:spay/neuter - some merely require that the adoptee's do the spaying within a certain time frame.

And yes, dogs are great for children as long as the children are educated about dogs. However, it's not "natural" fit. There is some training and education involved. And if the child pulls on the dogs tail, or screams in it's ear, the dog might learn how to bite children. That's why even the ASPCA says you should never leave a young child alone with a dog.

I am a professionally trained dog trainer. I think I know a lot about dogs. Enough to know that the quick and unpredictable motion of little arms and legs can arouse the prey instinct in a dog

[JuniperLea]

77. I don't believe you at all

Good bye... not talking to you about this any more. I cannot believe you are a professional... not after these posts. Sorry. I've lived my life with puppies and children and what you are saying is totally wrong, IMHO. Children and puppies learn self and mutual respect. I'm not an idiot! Of course you don't leave small children alone with any dog! That is insanity!

You are clearly grasping at straws in an effort to prove your non-point. What the hell ever. I'm done here.

[cuke]

80. You don't have to

but it's the facts.

I have also lived my entire childhood with dogs. My parents taught me how to treat dogs. I didn't come by this knowledge "naturally". It had to be taught to me.

The facts are, puppies are more likely to bite than an adult dog, and when puppies bite, it is usually a child they bite.

[ShortnFiery]

84. Yes, there's no sharper little teeth than that on pups ... like tiny needles.

And even at such a young age, pups need to be given positive reinforcment when they play "nice" (no biting) and ignored (no attention) when they misbehave. In a very short time they will learn that in order to receive attention, they must be gentle with people.

I always socialized my K9s with adults, children and other pets. However, I never let even my most gentle dogs alone with a child under the age of 10 years old. Yes, I'd even monitor my own young children.

The pet stores are now giving "puppy socialization" classes. I think this is a wonderful idea. The more exposed a pup is to all different situations and people, the less he/she will demonstrate nervous agression.

My hat's off to you because, IMO, you conveyed the need for thoughful screening of prospective pet owners in a very understandable and concise way. :hi:

[cuke]

86. Thank you

And yes, those classes are wonderful. I'm thinking of getting into the business

[ShortnFiery]

91. I'm seriously considering entering an internship ...

I love the interaction and my friends and neighbors with pets often ask me questions about training. No, I'm not a certified dog trainer but I have a lifelong facination with acquiring knowledge of Animal Behavior. Having a masters in Human Psychology and later studing "pack behavior" in wolves and K9, drives home the following point: albeit dogs are domesticated, their instincts default to that of their wolf ancestors.

Yes, I admire your profession because the older I get the following adage increasingly rings true: The more I learn about human nature, the more I love my dog. :blush:

*on edit: excuse any spelling typos - my old laptop locks up on spell check.

[cuke]

99. I'm not a CPDT

and I'm not a professional dog trainer. I was trained to train dogs by a professional dog trainer. Back then, I'm not even sure they had the certification pgm. I trained dogs for money when I was in college.

However, if you're thinking of going into the feild, I'll offer you nothing but encouragement. The pet industry is growing fast.

[ShortnFiery]

101. Thanks

I'm not up on such trainer title terminology but I will be if I sign up. ;)
Appreciate the explanation-clarification. Best regards, SnF

[cuke]

108. Here's a start

http://www.tonypassera.com/thedogsite/www//new/resource.php?id=46

Wherever you go to get trained, make sure they teach about operant conditioning and postive methods

[ShortnFiery]

110. I copy and appreciate the URL and guidance.

Thanks again for your assistance. :-) :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

78. Yes and IMO, If you have a little means, you have to care for the health of your dog.

I almost lost my 14 y.o. dog to an acute liver disorder. In one day of testing to include an ultrasound and needle biopsy, I dropped $1700 on the clinic. Since then "mom" (me) has been living on the cheap.

No, I didn't make anyone else in my family "tighten their money belts" but because I adopted my beloved dog as an 9 month old puppy, if I can afford caring for her without the rest of the family hurting, I will do that including sacrificing some extra niceties to afford her kidney medicine which must be specially formulated via the internal medicine vet's Rx.

My point is that our beloved K9s are our responsibilty for the rest of their natural life. When my dog begins to not enjoy her daily walks and shows any sign of suffering, I'll consult with the vet to put her to sleep. She'll then wait for me at the rainbow bridge ... when I arrive, we'll cross together into heaven.

[Mike03]

30. I just paid to adopt a dog

And the shelter has the right to take this sweet dog back if I violate the contract I signed to provide for it.

As for rescue groups that are run by "worthless creeps," etc... I've never met any corrupt people in the animal rescue business. Most of them pay for all this out of pocket, and many don't even solicit for donations. And a lot of people donate tons of time and gas transporting these animals.

[JuniperLea]

49. I'm 50 years old, I've had many, many dogs

I've met plenty of rescuers who SHOULD NOT BE IN THE BUSINESS!!! Nearly all my dogs came from rescue groups. I've never, ever seen a family excluded from the vetting process in the adoption of a puppy because they had children! That is absurd! Older dogs who are snippy and set in their way, yes. A known biter, yes. A puppy? Oh, hell no!

None of this would have happened if the agency owner hadn't threatened to go to the press. That was the fatal error in this little drama. Other than the fact it is ridiculous to preclude families with children from adopting puppies! That is ludicrous!!! Absolutely the stupidest thing I've ever heard!

[Mike03]

51. I can't address your level of experience

But nowadays it's common to deny families with children under a certain age particular breeds, and even home inspections are performed at times.

And I'm talking about both urban and country shelters. Frankly, it is just plain irresponsible to adopt out animals to certain individuals.

Modern shelters employ behavioralists who evaluate animals for compatability with children, cats, other dogs, men/women. It's the sane and rational thing to do.

[JuniperLea]

55. I agree on the vetting process!

That's NOT what I'm talking about here. I've had background checks performed, on-site verification of a gated back yard as I was stating, interviews with each of the five members of my family, interviews with my vet of over 20-years. Seriously, they knew far more about me than most of my friends do! The only thing they didn't ask me was if I had any tattoos, moles, or other identifying marks! I'm all for it too! I'm all for keeping very old dogs, or known biters, out of homes with children. But to keep puppies from children is stupid. There is no good reason for that. If someone is keeping a puppy out of a home with children, and the children are the only reason, I question the intelligence of that agency operator. Dogs and children go together like garlic and toast, white on rice, marshmallows and cocoa! Puppies and children NEED each other.

[Mike03]

60. Oh, I misunderstood

I apologize.

The puppy question--that's a good one, and I never worked with the puppies so I don't know what our policy was.

Maybe pit bulls would have been an issue, but I don't remember us ever denying a family a puppy.

[JuniperLea]

71. Thought so:)

We were talking about different things:) No worries.

I have a good friend who rescues pit bulls. That's a whole different story, but I've never, ever had a problem with a pit bull puppy... or an adult that has been properly raised and not abused. In many years of running a pit bull rescue, my friend has only found it necessary to put one down... only one that she could not rehabilitate and that she felt couldn't be around other dogs. That's a pretty good record. And I know she took it hard!! Oh, boy. She was in bad shape for a while!

[Mike03]

89. I usually agree with your posts

so I'm not surprised we just had a miscommunication. I had no idea that an OP like this could create such fire!

That's very sad about your friend and the pit bull pup.

In Los Angeles, we used to receive pit bulls who had been trained to fight and had been in fights, and it was just heartbreaking because they were almost always deemed "unadoptable" and euthanized, but some of them had such potential.

I'm sure that the dogs you have taken into your life have been very fortunate.

[JuniperLea]

100. Thanks, I'm the fortunate one...

I was born and raised in Los Angeles County... never lived more than 15 miles from the hospital where I was born. I'm sitting in a Downtown highrise as I type this:)

Check out my friend and her sweet Pit, Pantera... ok, we wrote a heavy metal fanzine together... most of our dogs have rockin' names... heh... but I digress... here's my pal and Pan!

http://www.whptv.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=[e-mail]

[Mike03]

94. About puppies...

I just wanted to quickly add that the reason the volunteers didn't spend much time with the puppies is that the puppies were almost always adopted out. We didn't worry much about them. It was the older dogs that I was most concerned with, because it was harder to find them good homes.

It was hard, sometimes, to overcome the perceptions about breeds, not only Pit Bulls, but Chows and (my favorite) the rotties.

[JuniperLea]

102. That's why I always went for the older dog

My daughter's dog, Sedwick, had both front legs broken when he was a pup. He had been with the rescue outfit for over a year. No amount of logic about his future would keep my daughter from loving and wanting him. He's a babe! We love him! Sedwick is the white Chihuahua, and my terrier mix, Jack, is the other guy... both rescued!

[Mike03]

121. Bless you

I don't know what else to say, but without people like you, many dogs would not ever get a chance. But I know what you mean about getting back more than you give.

It's so hard to get over the pain of saying goodbye to an animal. Otherwise, it's just a wonderful thing.

[JuniperLea]

103. I call this one "Sed on Bed"

He likes to help:)

[Mike03]

62. Just to add one thing

If a family/individual owned other dogs, we required them to bring the dogs in to meet the new adopted dog, just to see if they got along.

I had mixed feelings about this, because sometimes it takes a couple of weeks for animals to get used to each other.

[JuniperLea]

74. I agree

It is critical that the dogs get along! It does take time.

I had a Dobie/Shepherd that I rescued. The owner couldn't keep him because they were moving, but she loved him so much she left a three page letter with the rescue group, so the new family would know all about him. He was raised with a small dog and two cats, so when he saw other animals, he got all excited! Poor thing was friendless because he scared all the other animals away! He was just so big and scary looking, but he was 111 lbs of sweet lap puppy to me!

[Mike03]

97. Aww, that's a nice story

You have certainly done your fair share of good deeds.

That's an important reminder that not everyone who gets rid of a dog or cat is a bad person. Sometimes people are cornered and have no choice, and it's very sad. My new dog is (knock on wood) a true blessing, and at first I couldn't understand how anyone could get rid of him, but the shelter said the family had an urgent reason. I guess it's important to keep an open mind on these issues.

[JuniperLea]

104. I say the same thing about my Jack

He is so precious! How anyone could let him go... but like Cooper, there may have been a heart-breaking reason.






Jack & Sed are such good buddies!

[Mike03]

126. I'm glad we got to talk

This is about the longest conversation I've ever had on a DU thread, after all these years here.

Nice to talk to you, and maybe we will meet up again on another thread.

Take care, and thanks again for all you have done for those very special animals.

[Mike03]

31. If you can name a rescue organization

that is corrupt, you should do so, so that none of us do business with these rescue groups.

[JuniperLea]

52. No need...

I push and push until they are run out of business.

One woman had over 50 dogs in a very small back yard... she was giving them shots herself! She was in Carson, CA.

You may have heard about another rescue outfit recently run out of Lakewood, CA. Pretty much the same situation.

There are legal reasons for NOT doing what you are saying to do, so I will keep to myself any current information I may or may not have. And I would suggest that others go to authorities before doing it too.l It would be counter-productive to out them before proper procedures have been followed.

[Mike03]

54. You can PM me with the names

and I will forward them to authorities in Southern California.

[JuniperLea]

57. Like I said... no need...

The proper So Cal authorities are well aware of who I am;) I've lived in So Cal all of my life, and I've been a dog lover just as long.

I don't PM people with that kind of information anyway. I don't know you from Adam. Sorry, but it's just stupid to get caught up in that sort of thing. I can take care of my own business, thank you.

[mondo joe]

123. You can find a list of some very dreadful rescue organizations at

http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/cruelty_database/results.php?us_state=&ca_state=&uk_state=&nz_state=&au_state=&es_state=&type_id%5B%5D=9&animal_id%5B%5D=2&status=a&month=&year=&gender=&welfare=1&keyword=&search=search

and

http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/cruelty_database/results.php?us_state=&ca_state=&uk_state=&nz_state=&au_state=&es_state=&type_id%5B%5D=9&animal_id%5B%5D=2&status=d&month=&year=&gender=&welfare=1&keyword=&search=search

[Gormy Cuss]

15. Some of those risks are present even with such a contract.

I've had more than a few friends get burned by rescue groups who offered a dog (or less frequently, a cat) as an animal in perfect health or well socialized when that was far from the truth. Not all rescue groups are equal and the length of the conditions in the contract is no guarantee that you've found a good group.

[cuke]

29. Thank you

Yes, there are no garauntees. Dogs are living beings and there is no way for anyone to garauntee health or disposition. Anyone who does is being very irresponsible.

However, these contracts state that the rescue group will take the dog back, Any person that cares about dogs will take the dog back if the adoptee doesn't want to keep because they know if they don't there's a good chance the owner will dump the dog. If the don't care about the dog being dumped, then why are they in the rescue "business"? A willingness to take the dog back is a sign of rresponsible rescue agency

And yes, differnt groups have different rules, and of course it easier to get a dog from a place with less onerous rules. But ask yourself, would you rather adopt from someone who cares enough to have the contract include a clause to take their dog back, or someone who will give the dog to anyone and not care about how it turns out?

My point here isn't to disparage groups with less onerous rules. Personally, I think the 14yo limit was too strict. IME, it usually a 10yo limit, which is fine AFAIK. However, this rescue didn't make it 14yo just to give people a hard time and break the hearts of little children. They did for the dog's sake

Wouldnt you want a dog from someone who actually cares enough about their dogs to make a commitment to care for the dog if the asoption doesnt work out? Isn't that better than someone who just doesn't care about the dog enough to ensure that there's a contract that protects the dogs interests?

[Gormy Cuss]

46. Frankly, I wouldn't take on a dog or cat from any group unless I was comfortable with the animal

and part of that comfort is assessing the environment where the animal lives now. I've known a breed-specific 'rescue' woman whose dogs are rescued only when someone adopts them away from her. She wasn't qualified to have a single dog of her own IMHO, never mind take in castoffs from others, and that's what most of her dogs were -- cast off because they had complicated and expensive medical conditions or behavorial issues that were difficult to resolve. I'm not denigrating the good work done by most rescues, just pointing out that using the term "rescue group" or having the window dressing of a contract isn't much of guarantee by itself.

On the other hand, I was raised in a family that took in stray animals (some of my sibs still do) and only one cat had socialization problems that were never resolved in the dozen or so years she lived with the family, and only one dog came with medical problems. We had few problems with pups born to neighborhood dogs either, in part because they were all mutts with nicely mixed up genes. Again, there are no guarantees.

[NC_Nurse]

16. Booga booga!

If only people had to go through so much vetting to have children. :eyes:

[JuniperLea]

26. I say that out loud every time I adopt a dog!

They even called my vet to see what kind of a dog owner I was!

Poor kids are different... No license, no training, everyone comes with the build-it-yourself-kit...

[Wildewolfe]

18. No disrespect to anyone that wants to go that way...

... but I look at background checks and contracts with reposession clauses for a pet dog about the same way I do as Home owner associations. Thanks but I will look elsewhere. You may be well intentioned and well meaning, but I don't surrender my privacy to you or anyone else and then again, you may be a flaming asshole and I just saved myself a ton of grief too.

[Johonny]

19. stupid question

Is this type of contract enforceable legally?

[LostinVA]

23. Of course it is

In Ellengate, the organization's owner was backed by police officers. It is a legal contract.

[Johonny]

139. ?

Police officers don't decide if contracts are legal or not. It is my understanding the officers back the organization owners because the chip in the dog was registered to them. Only a judge can tell if a contract is legally binding and I do not believe the officers were acting on a court order in this case. I was hoping for a lawyer to comment, but there might not be enough information on the contract to get any legal advice.

[incapsulated]

22. Have you read this particular "contract"? It's crazy.

It's absurd. It's like they want you to lose the dog.

http://www.accesshollywood.com/pdf/MuttsAndMomsContract.pdf

I'm just going to copy and paste Ayesha's post on this to give you an idea:

Read it, basically the rescue keeps all rights to the dog, and can take the dog back whenever they feel like it! Some particularly nasty aspects of this contract:

-Describes the dog as a "living and sentient canine being." That is #1 nutty extreme animal rights crazy warning...and I say that as a vegetarian who is for animal rights. Of course dogs have feelings, but "dog" or "canine" would be sufficient description!

-Microchip has to stay with rescue listed as the primary

-No right to reclaim the dog if it gets lost...the rescue can take it back if they're angry that someone left your gate open, etc.

-Dog can NEVER be shut outside, even for a few minutes. What if you have a scared or allergic relative, a furniture delivery, or the dog dislikes strangers? You'd technically be breaching the contract.

-Dog can never be offleash outside a fenced area for any reason. What if you want to show in obedience or agility? Again, you'd technically be breaking the contract.

-The paragraph about not walking the dog on the dog's tag collar is way over the top. They will take back a dog for that? Give me a break. Many dogs cannot slip out of a properly adjusted collar. Others of us use a limited slip collar for our tags.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2077558&mesg_id=2081040

[cuke]

44. Hysterical

"can take the dog back whenever they feel like it!"

Yes because they just LOVE the added expense and trouble of having another dog to take care of and they just love breaking the hearts of children. Don't you know that the only reason they gave the dog to Ellen was because they knew she would give it away to a family with children and they just couldn't wait to break their hearts

" "living and sentient canine being." That is #1 nutty extreme animal rights crazy warning"

So get a dog from someone who thinks they're not living, sentient, or a being

"What if you have a scared or allergic relative, a furniture delivery, or the dog dislikes strangers? "

Putting the dog out does nothing for allergies. The dog hair and salive is all over. As far as the other examples go, have you ever heard of a leash? Or locking the dog in another room?

And your link doesnt work

[incapsulated]

95. It's a PDF file

That kind of languge may be fine for me but there are plenty of excellent dog owners who don't need to sign onto it.

I can't ever put my dog outside for a minute? Give me a break. Why not something rational like don't leave your dog tied up outside for extended lengths of time or in bad weather? You know, common sense. Telling me putting my dog outside for 5 minutes is abuse is laughable.

[cuke]

105. OK, I got it now

Weird, it didn't come up the 1st time, and the 2nd time I got an error msg about updating Adobe, but it worked fine this time. Oh well

And I agree that this contract is too restrictive, however not to the extent that you do. The "no outside alone" rule is for two reasons:

1) Encourages the development of aggression depending on the circumstances
2) Danger from hawks, eagles, and other predators.

Personally, I wouldn't agree to that rule, but I live in NYC. Not many predators aside from the human kind which is another reason to not leave your dog out, even for five minutes. People steal dogs.

[DemBones DemBones]

113. EVERY contract from a "rescue" group is crazy.

They make it sound like you're adopting a child rather than a dog. And I'm also a vegetarian who supports animal rights.

Of course a dog is "living and sentient" -- there's damned little demand to adopt dead dogs.

[Egalitariat]

143. All of those would have been good points to raise BEFORE

she signed the contract. Not after.

[SoCalDem]

24. GO TO ANY CITY/COUNTY ANIMAL SHELTER

adopt one from "death row".. or take in a wandering skinny stray (like we have always done)..

Contracts are not necessary if you want a great pet, and want to save a life :)

[incapsulated]

25. All my dogs were from death row or strays

Bide-a-Wee has a contract but nothing like this crazy shit.

[Mike03]

33. My dogs too

I applaud you for giving these animals a second chance. It's not always easy work.

[joshcryer]

32. YES.

I didn't even *know* there were groups that demanded you sign totally convoluted contracts to get a pet. I've *always* adopted from the Humane Society which asks very reasonable questions of you and is so happy when you take one of their little guys away.

5 dogs my whole life, all from the Humane Society. I've never lived one moment without our family having a dog.

[Richard Steele]

34. Exactly. Both of our current house animals were found outside.

No contracts, just concern for their welfare.

[kdmorris]

38. Truer words have never been spoken

Our oldest one was from "death row". Our younger dog was from a rescue organization. We got her as a baby because we thought it would be easier for the older dog to accept.

[cuke]

111. I made a big mistake I want to clear up

My OP gives the impression that the only "good" way to get a dog is to go to a rescue that has a strong contract. What really happened was that I was trying to point out that a contract is a good thing because it strongly indicates a concern for the animal. That led me into thinking about how pet store and backyard breeders are also not good places to get a dog, for the same reasons. The result was that I mentioned a bunch of bad places and only one good, leaving the impression that was the only way to get a dog, and I regret that

I've had dogs for most of my life, and most of those dogs came either off the streets or from the ASPCA (w/ no contract). It's a fine way to get a dog and I hope no one is discouraged from going to their local animal shelter for a dog.

[ileus]

35. Who would want a noisy dog anyway...I finally got rid of ours in Feb

And life has never been better. No more barking dog...now if only the neighbor would ditch hers.

[kdmorris]

37. OMG!!!

Are you being sarcastic? Or attempting to make a joke?

How can you just "get rid of" an animal? Did you try to stop him/her from barking? We've had a lot of success with our youngest dog, teaching her to stop barking.

How old was the dog when you "got rid of" it?

[ileus]

141. poor choice of words sorry...I gave him to a couple I know.

I searched and asked prolly a 100 people or more, I had to get rid of him. He was overly protective, the last two places I owned were isolated, no so with my current home. He snapped a two of the neighbors kids and actually attacked my BNL who almost maced him (on duty at the time deputy)he hated anyone in a uniform. I refuse to keep an animal tied and I had to keep him tied for close to a month before I found him a good home. He was a little over a year old...I adopted him from the pound as a puppy.

Sorry about the mix up...

[kdmorris]

144. Ahhhh

I see. It was the wording that was weird.

I've had to give up my dog before, too. In my case, I was moving to a place that didn't allow dogs.

I'm sorry you had to give your dog away! It's never fun, but sometimes necessary.

[Critters2]

135. I think you forgot this:

:sarcasm:

[kdmorris]

36. While I'm trying to agree with the sentiment of your post

It's kind of hard, given the way it's worded. You act like you only have those few choices, and that's not always the case.

Any time you get an new pet, it's a risk. It's not like rescue organizations are all the same, you know. Some of them love pets a lot, but they can't control every animals background. That's why they are called RESCUE organizations. The rescue animals from some really awful situations.

Second, even breeders WITH contracts are a bad idea, but that's mainly my personal opinion. I don't see why people can't get beautiful, loving pets from the vast millions of already abandoned pets. You don't have to get a pure bred dog. You just don't. Even some puppy mills and pet stores have contracts that you have to sign, but they still don't give a shit about the dogs, who are often traumatized and sick when you spend your hundreds of dollars for them.

It's not about the contract. It's about the people. We got one of our dogs, Brandy, from Animal Care and Control. They may TRY to care about animals, but they kill them if they aren't adopted after 30 days, so I would say they don't really "care" for them in the sense that I would believe. There is no contract, not really, just a little piece of paper stating the county registration laws that you sign. The only other paperwork is to fill out the county registration and the Avid chip with your home address so that they can match the dog back to you. And, you are done. No contract, but she's still a great dog, even after several months of life on the streets before they captured her.

Our other dog, Sun Dancer(Sunny), we got from an organization called Puppies Under Protection. They had a rather extensive contract that I read carefully and signed. BUT, after I signed it, and brought her home, she was our dog. The chip and county registration information is in my name. She is also a great dog, but wasn't really socialized correctly, so is somewhat fearful of strangers. I don't blame this rescue organization, because they did the best they could and really do care about dogs.

With both of these dogs, when we brought them home, we had to overcome any issues they have. You can do it. It's not impossible to take an abused animal and help it overcome it's early years. Just look at Brandy. Her early life wasn't too hot and it appears that more than one person had smacked her with a broom and sprayed her with a hose before we brought her home. She was terrified of both when we brought her home, but we helped her get over her fear. She's one of the best dogs I've ever had.

Like I said, I do agree with the sentiment of the post, but it's a little over the top. I don't believe that dogs can't overcome their early life anymore than I believe that pit bulls are born vicious and cruel. But, there's something to be said about getting a dog that someone has already cared for. It DOES make it much easier.

That being said, I would never have signed that contract, if it is really the way it's shown in that form. There is no way I would sign something that allows the RESCUE ORGANIZATION to be the primary person on the chip information. That sounds more like Rent a Dog.

[alarimer]

43. I think the Rescue organizations might have different standards than you local Humane Society

The last I checked, our Humane Society doesn't make you jump through the kind of hoops some of these other organizations do. Both of my cats have been "found" animals. One adopted me. The other was from a litter some woman at Petsmart was giving away. And they have been great pets. The first one got out and never came back. I suspect he was hit by a car or something because, though I looked, I ever did find him and he had always come back after getting out (I do not let mu cats outside but sometimes they escape, the sneaky little devils).

[kdmorris]

63. Our Humane Society doesn't either

We got our cat there. We did sign something that says we would bring her back if we ever didn't want her, but wouldn't get the donation back. After 6 1/2 years, we still aren't tired of her!

They are a no-kill shelter.

[Mike03]

48. Lot of truth in this post as well

I think both of you are right...

It's very true that you are rolling the dice when you adopt an animal, and it's very true that it's not impossible to change entrenched behavior, but it does sometimes require more time and effort than people can provide.

That's why I like contracts that have return provisions, even though this is very upsetting for the animals--at least the shelter can provide basic necessities and affection to the animal as it endeavors to find a new home.

By the way, that is so kind of you to give these animals a new chance.

[kdmorris]

61. Thank you

And in the end, we probably get as much out of this relationship as they do. There is nothing like coming home to two animals that are so happy to see you, who love you so much.

Really different than having teenage humans, anyway. :toast:

[Mike03]

66. Yes, SO TRUE

When I put my dog down (due to cancer) I was thinking about what I had lost, and the veterinarian sent me a card reminding me how blessed I had been to have this dog in the first place.

I learn more about myself from dogs than from people. They are, like Cesar Millan says, mirrors.

[kdmorris]

72. I'm really sorry for your loss!

It's been 11 years since I put my cat, Maxi, down. I got her when I was 10 years old and she was my best friend during high school. When I couldn't talk to anyone, I could always talk to her. She was 17 when I had to put her to sleep.

It's been 11 years, and, as I write this, my eyes are still tearing up. I was EXTREMELY grateful to have that cat in my life, but I do still miss her. Having other animals never replaces that, but it does ease the loss a bit.

[Mike03]

92. Aww, thanks

I know, it really hurts. Seventeen years is a long, wonderful lifespan for a cat. Maybe it sounds pathetic, but when I was 11 I had a pet rat, and he was my life for two years. I was a real outcast at the time at school, because I had moved from New Jersey to an upper class neighborhood in California, and I was just clueless about how to dress or how to be good at sports. All I had was that pet rat.

The pain of losing a pet is a pain that only pet lovers understand. I had to put my sweet dog down the same week I found out that my father has cancer. It was just the worst week I have ever had. I told my sisters that I felt I needed a dog just to have a reason to even get up in the morning. But I wasn't rushed into adopting either. I just got very lucky and found a very compatable dog.

[cuke]

90. I agree with you 100%

Looking back, I did go a little too far. You make some excellent points (particularly about mixed breeds and it being about the people, and not the contract. Also about rehabilitating dogs. My brother and I have rehabilitated two fearful dogs.

Thanks for setting me straight

But one thing: The reason why they wanted the microchip registered to them is because sometimes people move to places where dogs aren't allowed so they dump the dog. When they scan the microchip, they get the address, but when they go there to return the dog, they're long gone.

However, I agree that this one's contract was needlessly harsh. However, I don't want the thread to be about the specifics of this one rescuer. There are a lot of somewhat eccentric people in the field.

[kdmorris]

136. Fair enough

I was trying to stay away from it being about that one contract. And I didn't want to disparage Rescue organizations, in general. What humans do to dogs is sometimes horrifying, and most of the time, these contracts ARE trying to create a legal way of making sure that people who have worked so hard to save these animals can do something is that animal turns out to be in danger.

The very fact that there is ever someone who moves and doesn't change the address on the chip (in fact, "dumping" the dog) seems proof positive that people do crappy things to animals. In that context, it makes sense, if they had seen that happen before. I still wouldn't have signed the contract, but I could see why they had many of those provisions.

When we got our younger dog, I did sign a contract that said they wanted her back. It also stated I wouldn't leave her tied out, or let her run loose, or give her to anyone else. I signed that willingly because I never planned on doing any of those things to her anyway.

I've really tried hard to stay out of the Ellen DeGeneres thing, because I can see the points on both sides.

[slackmaster]

41. The dog I found a new home for 3 months ago is doing very well

I gave her to a single mom who has a nice home on some land, a young boy, two other dogs, and a couple of cats.

The woman is a former veterinary tech. I've followed up and can say with confidence that all parties are better off as a result of the transfer.

Our agreement was strictly verbal and informal. No hassles, no money changing hands, no intermediaries. Just me giving a dog to a better home than I could provide.

[Mike03]

42. People don't think about the bonds that form between shelter personnel

and these precious animals. Hundreds of hours go into caring for these animals, and I remember that feeling of being both happy and sad about the adoptions--a transient kind of grief, although we were always happy to see these animals find good homes.

There is also the incredible sense of loss when these animals have to be put down.

EDIT

I don't know if they still exist but there used to be websites that specifically offered grief counseling to people who worked an animal shelters. That's how serious these bonds are, and I think shelters have every right in the world to screen adopters and protect the animals from misuse or idiotic owners.

[cuke]

112. One of my friends almost had a nervous breakdown

His dog collapsed from a tumor on his spine which paralyzed him while going down the stairs. He was right there and he practically went into shock. I was next door and I heard him screaming.Very sad

[Mike03]

125. That is what happened to my dog

She had lymphoma and it went into her spine. And it happened in just a matter of days. And the time I could have spent with her, I spent on the internet because someone close to me had just been diagnoised with cancer. I wish I could have those precious days back and spent more time with my dog. I didn't realize what was happening, and it happened so fast.

[mondo joe]

50. Until I got my dog, all my pets came from the city pound. No contracts - just a

lot of sweet pets.

My mother, however, aways has dogs. Same story - all from the pound, all super sweet dogs.

:shrug:

[McCamy Taylor]

53. On second thought, get a cat. When is the last time a cat ever killed its owner?

If you want a "trainable" pet, get a siamese.

[MindPilot]

81. Mine tried.

A week in the hospital recovering from a cat bite infection. Dr said if I had waited another 5 or 6 hours to go to the ER, I probably would have died.

[angstlessk]

64. I kinda agree...SEE FRIST AND CAT ADOPTIONS...but after say 1 year

the animal should be yours free from any contractural recourse!

[Pithlet]

65. It doesn't excuse what that rescue did.

Even if they were within their rights, it doesn't make it right. There was no reason to put that family through that. It could have been handled so much better. Just barging in there with cops and ripping the dog away from them was awful. If I were in the area and looking to adopt, I'd stay far away from that place, and I'd advise everyone I knew to do the same. Inexcusable. If rescue places are in the habit of handling things this way, then maybe it's good this is out in the open so more people can choose other avenues. It's probably better anyway since there are dogs languishing in kill shelters who are at death's door. People should rescue them instead.

[cuke]

114. Please see

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2081831#2082814

IMO, the 14 yo limit was too high. Most are 10, or even less. And I do agree about getting dogs from kill shelters. That's where I'm going to go

[idgiehkt]

131. legally

they probably had to have an officer present to remove the dog. Local ordinances sometimes require a police officer to be present in situations like this when you are entering private property. If they hadn't brought the cops the people would have called them themselves so it's probably better they were already on the scene as well as to maintain civility, I've heard of people threatening humane officers in situations like this.

People objecting seem to me to be a bit sheltered about what goes on in the world of animal rescue/adoption. Two things that happen commonly are people who lie while adopting animals because they are looking to use them for fighting or to sell to labs for animal experimentation. They have people who go out and adopt animals for them and then turn the animals over to them and are paid. That is another reason why in the instance where an animal has been relocated it is necesarry to bring cops; the people have absolutely no idea what they might potentially be walking into. Private rescues go to pretty great lengths to find decent homes for the animals that they care for and I don't blame them for being upset that the contract was breached. Another thing that gripes me is that children are *not* appropriate caretakers for animals. They can be given assignments to feed the animals and care for them but an adult is ultimately responsible for making sure the animal is being properly cared for according to state and local laws; they will be the ones going to jail or being fined if this is not the case. Without having screened the home the agency has no knowledge or information as to what kind of home the animal ended up in.

[Pithlet]

138. I'm not a bit sheltered.

I understand why people screen potential adoptees. I'm not against that at all for the reasons you stated. I'm sure she had to have the cops with her, but that doesn't change the fact she acted impulsively with no regard for anyone's feelings or the consequences of her rash actions. She could have visited the home and checked to make sure it was a suitable one instead of just going in like rambo. It was a terrible thing to do to that family, and there was no excuse for it. I think the death threats are beyond ridiculous and horrible, but I don't feel a bit sorry for her that people are calling her on her awful behavior. She deserves the bad press, every bit of it.

[ShortnFiery]

68. Kudos cuke!

Well written. :thumbsup: :hi:

[Ayesha]

69. There are contracts

and then there are contracts. I have no problem with a REASONABLE contract - I wouldn't adopt a pet to someone without one. But there is a difference between guaranteeing that you'll take a dog back if it is unwanted, and REQUIRING that the dog be returned to you even if the person knows the perfect home. Screening an adopter can involve a 5 minute home check, verifying basic cleanliness and a secure fence. Decisions about children, other pets, etc. should not be based on strict rules but rather the individual animal and family. If someone doesn't meet requirements, instead of rejecting them, help them make changes so they CAN, or find a dog that would be better suited to their lifestyle. List your rules and requirements up front so that people don't get their hopes up only to be turned down.

Rescuing animals means giving up a certain amount of control. You can never be POSITIVE that even the best looking home is a good one. You can only do your best. In the Ellen case, Iggy had a new, safe home. He was never going to end up in a pound again. Instead of creating all this brouhaha, the rescue could have redone the paperwork and gone on to rescue another dog on death row. LA has no shortage of them, sad to say.

[Pithlet]

73. Excellent post.

That's exactly how I see it.

[cuke]

117. I agree with each and every thing you said

I wasn't trying to defend the rescuer or the details of the contract. I just wanted to add a different perspective to it. From some of the other threads, I've heard all sorts of complaints about how the rescuers had "no right" to take the dog back, no right to set an age limit (some people think dogs and children are like chocolate and peanut butter), etc. I was just trying to put out these clauses are there for a good reason.

But I will say this about the contract- it actually details what should be done if the adopter can't handle the dog. These details allow the dog to be transferred to a prospective adopter's home provided they inform the rescuer and get her permission. If they had only done that, there wouldn't be any hurt feelings.

[idgiehkt]

132. this is pretty common, I think.

It's pretty standard for whatever org it is to require the animal be returned rather than rehomed. They probably have that clause so they can prosecute anyone who ultimately uses the animal for fighting or vivisection; they don't have to prove what was done with the animal and they have the legal right to demand that the animal be returned without having to undertake and Prove anything about the animal's new environment. It's really the only sensible way to handle it, otherwise it puts the burden on the rescue to prove something they don't have the time or money to prove in order to remove an animal.

As far as this:
"In the Ellen case, Iggy had a new, safe home. He was never going to end up in a pound again", I'm not sure where this info is coming from. How do people know this? That is why this never should have been publicized by Ellen, because she has tons of fans jumping to conclusions about things that none of us can know. So many people seem to be posting from the standpoint that everyone who adopts and animal is sensible and humane, and this is far from the case. I recently read an article about a man who adopted a little dog from a shelter and then beat her to death.

[MindPilot]

75. A dog is legally property, not a person.

Yes I know they have feelings, needs etc. My own dogs--all of which have come from the county animal shelter--are more my children than my children were.

But they are still my property and have no more legal value than that. If somebody kills your pet, the most you are going to be compensated for is the cost of replacement. Just like if someone steals your car. You will not get compensated for any emotional loss for an animal.

Now with that reality in mind, how can a rescue organization enter into a legally enforceable contract with the contingency that they will take the animal back if its care doesn't meet their standards? That would be like buying a car, then the dealer repossessing it because you didn't wax it every other week.

If I go to the shelter and adopt (buy) a pet, that animal is now my property to do whatever I damn well please with. (Within the law of course--if I'm cruel or inhumane to the animal that is a law enforcement issue, not the business of the seller.)

So it looks like the rescue organizations who are operating with these onerous contracts are not really putting the animals up for adoption (sale), they are actually leasing them. And just like the aformentioned car dealer, they get to sell them at least twice.

[Mike03]

96. Isn't that changing in some states?

Even though what you are saying is technically true, don't the statutes on abuse begin to encompass the notion that although animals are not moral agents they are worthy of protection on moral principle?

Just asking.

[LostinVA]

118. Yes, in many states animals are no longer considered property

But have limited "personhood."

My cats are my family, not my property.

[mondo joe]

107. I think Ellengate will turn some off to rescue grous, but hopufully they will be more

inclined to use the pound or humane society.

[cuke]

119. Love that analogy. Love it!

"It would be like buying a car, then the dealer repossessing it because you didn't wax it every other week."

Did you know that it's actually legal to do that, just as long as the dealer puts that in the contract? Of course they don't do that because theyre in the business of selling cars. They have no reason to make it harder for you to buy a car, and they don't give a damn what you do with it once they have their money

For some of the rescuers, they don't see themselves as in the business of adopting out dogs; They're in the business of saving dogs. Adopting dogs out is only a means to make room for another dog to save. So when they give the dog away, they want to make sure it's in the dog's best interests.

Unfortunately, because they're more focused on saving the dogs than finding new homes for them, some of them save dogs quicker than they find homes for them, and end up being "collectors", which IMO is just as abusive.

[idgiehkt]

133. car dealerships profit from the sale of cars

I doubt that many rescues actually profit from the sale of their animals, it is reimbursement for caring for the animals. People who do not want to agree to the terms of the sale can go buy an inbred dog from a puppy mill at a pet store for a ridiculous price. I think even many shelters have this clause included in the contract so they can press charges on people who sell the animals to labs or use them for fighting, because those folks have employees who lie for them and adopt dogs for them just for a flat fee.

Another reason to have this clause is many rescues are 'breed rescues', that is they rescue specific pure-bred dogs, who could be sold for profit, sometimes for many hundreds of dollars. The rescue normally has an adoption fee of about$100-$200 depending on what medical treatment the dog may have needed. However if the dog is a purebred and could be resold for many times the adoption fee the only way for the rescue to protect itself is to have a clause forbidding the resale/re-homing of the animal. They are not 'profitting' from the 'selling' of these animals and most probably operate in the red most of the time because each animal must be housed, fed, vaccinated, given heartworm and flea prevention, treated for parasites like ear mites and worms, spayed or neutered, etc, etc etc. Just my two dogs' yearly appointment for shots, heartworm pills, and ear mite medicine this year was over $500, and that didn't include any surgery. Spaying and neutering alone is usually as much as or more than the adoption fee for a rescue animal.

[riderinthestorm]

106. I have a problem with the all of nothing approach you have

Dog breeders just "dump" their dogs without concern, trainers do no training, pet stores never socialize their pups - NONE of them care for the dog!

Only the shelters or rescue groups care enough to constuct onerous and ridiculous contracts!!!11! :sarcasm:

Look, it's just not that cut and dried. I know plenty of "backyard breeders", unofficial "trainers", and people who just happen to be rescue magnets (gasp!) who do a fine job distributing dogs and pups (and cats and sheep and horses and goats and ducks and....).

I'm a "backyard breeder" of horses (eek!) who sells horses with just a bill of sale (oh. my. gawd). Not all of us are incompetent assholes looking to scam people. We actually DO care about the fate of animals in our care, custody and control.

I have more than 10 vets that I employ on a rotating basis depending on my needs at any given time (and yes, my vet bills exceed $5,000 MONTHLY with sport horses which in a shelter's eyes is truly heinous) - lameness exams and work, chiropractors, acupuncturists, massage therapy and more for the horses, dogs, cats and more. And yes, I even (gasp!) vaccinate and do some doctoring on my own (eek!) The one time I tried to adopt a new barn cat from a shelter, it was impossible - I have more than 50 animals on my farm and accounting for them, and for all of the vet work was insane and impossible. I gave up and just asked my vets: I had 5 new barn cats within 2 hours.

It's not just shelters and rescue orgs are great, everyone else is shit. I guess I find this whole concept offensive. It is not that black and white.

[JuniperLea]

109. Winnie! Winnie! Neigh.... bplblblblblbllbllblb

Can I come be one of your horses??? Sounds like they are treated very well! I can count with my hoof! Really!

:P

[riderinthestorm]

128. Oh yeah baby, Dr. Dan Beatty is a hottie (the chiropractor)

and Dr. Annie Logan is sa-weet (the acupuncturist). My field Service vet Dr. Jim Siegrist is always on the look-out for a date (Il. Equine Field Service) although I think Dr. Margharet McHarg (Kendall Rd. Equine) is happily married.

Which way do you swing? Dr. Andy Schmidt up at Wisconsin Equine is haaawwt, and does all my repro-work (wink, wink nudge nudge).

How about small animal? Can you get into a married vet couple? Dr. Mary Priebe (VCA Animal Aurora) and her husband Dr. Todd Faroane (St. Chas Emergency) - Wowza!! They do all my small animal work.

Of course, you may have to be flexible - these are rather larrge (snort!) practices - sometimes you can get the young interns.... (wink!)

Welcome to my team. Fortunately (unfortunately :cry: ) I am on a first name basis with my vets. Last week my back up vet, Dr. John Wiseman (Il Equine Field Service) loaned me his truck and trailer when one of my boarders' young horses colicked at a competition, while my husband was at another competition 300 miles away with our rig. Isn't it great (sad) when you are so close to your vet that they will loan you $50,000 dollars worth of equipment to haul an animal that isn't even your own, to surgery?

And somehow I am a bad adoption prospect for a barn cat... go figure.

[cuke]

120. You're right

some other posters pointed out the same thing, and I have to admit I failed to consider some things in my OP which made it too one-sided.

And "backyard breeder" is an inaccurate term. I was referring to people who breed animals for money without concern for the welfare of the animals. You obviously care for yours. I have no problem with that. I'm sure you know what you're doing.

I've spent time out in the country and I know things are not always as formal and that that doesn't mean the animals are being mistreated. IME, farmers, ranchers etc are more respectful of animals than most.

"It's not just shelters and rescue orgs are great, everyone else is shit. I guess I find this whole concept offensive. It is not that black and white."

You're absolutely right. My point was that contract like these (but maybe not so strict) were not in themselves a bad thing. Unfortunately, I screwed up writing the OP

on edit: So what're you doing with all those horses? Are you training them? How?

[riderinthestorm]

124. I run my horses at the international levels of eventing.

My husband is our primary trainer at our farm (www.baythorne.com) but I also employ 3 other trainers who back him up.

Thanks for the response. It's just that rescue orgs get so territorial that they lose sight of the forest through the trees.

Peace!

[EFerrari]

122. "Onerous and ridiculous contracts"

And you had five new cats within two hours.

You know, somethings really are black and white.

[riderinthestorm]

127. Yep, my main barn houses 28 horses and Felix was taken home by one of my boarders

and then Dipstick and Lefty who patrolled the premises at my broodmare barns were taken home by two other boarders. I freely admit, I would much rather see a barn cat turn into a house cat. More will come.

When 5 kittens were dumped at my farm this spring and I found homes for them with some other boarders (please note that I DID put out a DU call for homes for them but THAT thread dropped like a stone!), I suddenly was left without barn cats.

This isn't really a problem for me. I will confess I am not a cat person but realities dictate that cats are a lovely alternative to rats and mice in a barn. I was thinking the local animal shelter (Anderson Animal Shelter in Elgin, IL) would be able to give me replacements (who would also summarily be adopted out of my barn which is usual) but I ran into the enormous roadblocks erected by such facilities. It is IMPOSSIBLE for an owner such as I, with numerous sale animals (horses and dogs), coming and going, to account for these animals. And god forbid I would furthermore let them go on to owners who are vouched for by their exemplary care of their horses per their vets and my own experience over decades of client work with them... :eyes:

Look, I am like the person in that movie who posits that if you buid it, they will come. Well, I am the person who if you take a cat, the right owner will come. My vets know this and trust me, and know me.

My Vets. Placed. The Cats. With. Me. After. I. Had. Been. Turned. Down. By. The. Local. Shelters.

What part of that do you not understand?

That means I am not your typical shelter placement. Which means I am the anti-thesis of the OP, which means there are exceptions to the norm, which means that contracts like Ellen Degeneres' aren't flexible enough, and which also means that shelters need to REALLY re-examine what their end goal is: to place an animal with a good home.

And yeah, now, as of this fall, I am back down to one barn cat again. Every other cat has been taken home by one of my boarders to be a house cat. So where do you think I will call tomorrow for more barn cats? Anderson Animal Shelter or my local vets?

Thanks for the vote of confidence in a fellow DUer (I guess :eyes: )

[idgiehkt]

134. It's good that you don't understand why shelters are this way

"and which also means that shelters need to REALLY re-examine what their end goal is: to place an animal with a good home."

It's really, really a good thing. Sleep well, not knowing the nightmares that shelter workers have seen. I thought Ellen adopted from a private rescue though.

[Raffi Ella]

129. .

I'm having a problem over my newly adopted puppy;I just adopted her from the Humane Society 11 days ago.She's 8 weeks old and hadn't been spayed yet when I saw her on line and went to visit her.I fell in love on the spot and took her up to the lobby to adopt her.

I'd already filled out an application on line earlier that day so she reviewed it and then called my Vet,no problem;My Golden Pyr Chow mix, that I got from the shelter beside his hospital 7 years ago LOVED him and was well known at his office.She died almost 5 months ago of lymphoma and he was a huge part of her wellbeing and my peace of mind in the end...

The only problem is that they can't adopt out any puppy or dog that hasn't been spayed so she said I could foster her until Oct 29th,her spay date.I said ok,that's fine and I took her home with me.

I took my new puppy,Sophie,to my Vet the next day and mentioned that I was having her spayed on the 29th and he advised against it,said I should wait until she is at least 6 months of age.I agreed since that's what I did with my other dog and he was the one to do it.

So I went home and called her to cancel the spay date,told her why and told her I would provide her with paperwork in 6 months time to show she'd been spayed.

She went ballistic!She is insisting that I *have* to have her her spayed or they will not adopt her out to me,that I am only her Foster right now and she will get in trouble if I do not spay her on the specified date.

I feel very strongly about this though and so does my Vet,I'm not spaying her until HE says it's alright to do so!Period!!She's mine and we both understood that when I left with her that day - her care is my responsibility now!

The woman said they aren't connected w/ the State and therefore cannot issue a warrant for my puppy to get her back but I am still worried.

Does anybody have an opinion about this situation and/or have any idea what my rights are?Thanks for reading,I would really appreciate any insights or opinions.

[idgiehkt]

130. talk to other vets

vets have varying opinions about juvenile spay/neuter but it is very common and the shelter I worked at would not allow puppies to leave the property without being spayed, there was a low cost spay/neuter clinic that they used.

[Raffi Ella]

137. Hi,thanks for the reply.

I've found out from searching for a new dog that early spaying is common these days but after my cherished and trusted Vet advised against it and now knowing there is more risk involved in early spaying I just can't have this performed on her right now.I'd never forgive myself if she had complications from it when the surgery was un necessary(at this point).

I do understand the Spay/Neuter Campaign and my girl will be spayed but not right now.The procedure is already paid for by the Humane Society as is the microchip but I don't care about paying for it myself later if it's healthier and safer for my dog.

I think I need to call my own Vet and ask him what my rights are in this situation.

[Ayesha]

140. I hate to say this, but

ask your vet to sign a paper for the rescue saying that she is spayed, but wait to do it later. Or, have him write a statement that she can't be spayed yet for health reasons, and include a date when she can be. If you don't, you'll have an Iggy situation on your hands. The rescue person WILL NOT listen to reason, I guarantee it.

Please don't make the same mistake I made. I did a foster-adopt on an unspayed puppy, and had the surgery done at 4 months against my better judgment, so the adoption could be finalized. That dog now has all kinds of health and behavior problems, including aggression towards other dogs which has been linked to early spaying. I have to rehome her because she will never again be safe to have around 2 of my other dogs (per a behaviorist). My other female dog was always mine free and clear. I spayed her at 1 year of age (after joint and bone growth completed) and she is physically and mentally very healthy.

[renie408]

142. What they said.

Part of the problem with early spaying or neutering comes in the form of behavioral abnormalities. A close friend of ours went through the same thing you did. They got a puppy from a private adoption place that insisted that the puppy be spayed very early. Now they have one WEIRD dog. She is aggressive and socially just strange. Her vet says that is not uncommon in dogs that are spayed very young. When you spay a dog, you remove ovaries and uterus. You are removing the things that produce hormones that are necessary for certain kinds of development.

[Bozita]

145. I adopted a puppy in August from a rescue group. I signed a contract that was very pro-animal.

My puppy was bathed on her adoption day by the group. The day before, she visited the vet for a check-up and a heartworm/flea treatment.

Final words from the group's leader: "If there's ever a time when the dog becomes a burden in any way, call us."