Why the Nazis are Relevant (not why you think)

[arendt]

NOTE: This is really, really academic stuff. (For me, therefore, its at the core of my motivation. That's just who I am.) Its not directed at anybody's candidate. It's not meant to be flame-bait. Honest. It is an attempt to explain what Nazi-ism symbolizes for me.

---------

There are two threats to American democracy today: corporatism and theocracy. Many of you might think that the Nazi-ism analogy refers merely to corporatism. In my mind, Mussolini's fascism is the kind of bully-boy corporatism that America is facing today. The Nazis are a different kettle of fish. The Nazis always had much more "energy", style, and panache. People found the Nazis to be "possessed", "hypnotized".

You will find America's Nazi wannabees amongst the fundamentalist/Dominionist fruitcakes. It is the fanatical certainty of the 25% hard core Bushies that is the bigger threat; not Mussolini-style corporatism.

I think the corporations had learned that lesson from the beating they took by backing Hitler. That is why they put W., Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc. - the most un-charismatic individuals ever to pretend to be Messiah - at the front of their psuedo-Nazi movement. These guys were pre-ordained to fail. But the plan was that, in the process, they would enrich the Carlyle group and Haliburton and Bechtel, and trash the pesky middle class. You can almost see Poppy Bush laughing up his sleeve, like Nixon, at doing something so clever that no one even understands how badly they've been screwed over.

However, I am afraid that, as with Hitler, the corporations have miscalculated. They did not take into account the fundie whackjob infiltration of the military - especially the nuclear-armed air force. It only takes one nuke to ruin your whole day.

Let me just connect the dots for you, as to why I am very much afraid that we are still in for yet another round of the Manichean heresy.

----

Morris Berman's "Coming to Our Senses: Body and Spirit in the Hidden History of the West" is a well-documented and readable history of "ascent" or gnostic phenomenon through Western history. He sees Nazi Germany as the latest in a long line of "ecstatic" experiences. Berman quotes James Rhodes,"The Hitler Movement":

"Nazism was an apocalyptic, millennarian, neo-Manichaean heresy, a tendency embedded in human nature itself...It is virtually self-evident that the Natiional Socialists were modern, secular gnostics."

Berman adds his own interpretation:

The presence of a "Jewish enemy" enabled millions of Germans to reconstitute reality; the eventual extermination of the Jews was an exercise in magic. In other words, they had to find *human* devils because they were living in a secular society; the age of *actual* demons was long over. Yet the structure was still a gnostic one. The murder of the Jews, conculdes Rhodes, was a "magical ritual slaughtering."

Does this sound familiar to any of you "godless liberals"?

Berman draws parallels to other historical incidents of "gnostic" revelation:

"The phenomenon of "revelation", in the form of ascent or altered state, was apparently present in Nazi Germany to varying degrees. In particular, it happened to Hitler in 1918 as a result of an attack of British mustard gas, and he emerged from it with a "divine" message concerning his historical mission. Rhodes argues that many people experienced some strong or mild form of this, and in that sense, millions of Germans were Hitler in microcosm. Joseph Goebbels, for example, who was Nazi minister of propaganda, records that he underwent a "Damascus"-like conversion to Hitler and his ideas"

Most tellingly, Berman quotes Rhodes again, this time on the subject of Hitler's propaganda themes:

POLITICAL STATEMENTS
1. Germany is in danger of imminent collapse and annihilation.
2. The cause of this is a world Jewish conspiracy.
3. Resistance is necessary via the Volk.
4. Only National Socialism is capable of mounting such a resistance.
5. This will usher in a new Reich, characterized by both blood improvement and economic improvement.

COSMOLOGICAL TRANSLATIONS
1. End of Being (ontological destruction).
2. Demonlogy (identification of the devil)
3. Call for eschatological war
4. Identification of the agents of God
5. Salvation, redemption, a new Jerusalem

What was going on in Nazi Germany was just a remake of the old Christian heresies in a modern role. What people here don't appreciate is that the Nazis actually proclaimed that they were God's chosen, and that somebody else (the Jews) were devils. And, we are seeing exactly the same thing in America today:

POLITICAL STATEMENTS IN AMERICA TODAY
1. America is in danger of imminent collapse and annihilation.
2. The cause of this is secular humanist/liberal conspiracy.
3. Resistance is necessary via the fundamentalist Christian movement.
4. Only the GOP is capable of mounting such a resistance.
5. This will usher in a Christian nation, characterized by both "family values" and "the free market".

----------------------

And THAT is why I am going to keep bringing up Nazis on this board. Because the fundies scare me shitless. And anyone who says that the Nazi analogy is overblown can, as someone else put it, BITE ME.

arendt

[bain_sidhe]

1. Wow.

You're right that it's academic stuff, but you make it very readable, and understandable for non-academics.

Recommended!

(Ok, I'm mostly posting so that I can find this again via "my DU" when I want to. ;-) But, I figured I oughta say something besides, "wow.")

[NYC]

10. I do that, too.

It kicks the post, and allows you to find your way back. :hi:

[DemBones DemBones]

2. I think you're correct on all counts.

The Dominionists aka "Christian" Reconstructionists are a serious menace and no more related to Christianity than Hitler and his henchmen were.

The fact that there are a large number of people who believe in actively trying to start Armageddon is extremely frightening. It's far from mainstream Christianity and most Americans don't even know about it.

[ocd liberal]

3. WOW, The Sequel

I agree completely!

[Fredda Weinberg]

4. I guess you just had to be there - no, it's not that bad

But my father did warn us ... the Germans were as civilized as we claim to be. His point was that anyone could be driven to this madness but from his description, we're nowhere near the economic and political crisis they faced in the Weimar Republic.

[arendt]

5. Its not that bad until its that bad. One nuke can ruin your whole day.

Yes. I agree that its not that bad yet - unless, perhaps, you happen to be an Arab-American or a Moslem American. But it can get that bad, really quickly. The concentration camps are being built. Homeland Security and Blackwater are recruiting thugs.

Better to be worried and wrong than clueless and dead.

arendt

[Fredda Weinberg]

12. Please, don't compare Arab Americans to German Jews ... not yet

Nearly all my relatives, including an aunt who looked just like me, died in real concentration camps. Guantanamo Bay internees receive better care - even the ones who are being interrogated aren't being subjected to medical experiments or starved to death.

So I don't want to bite you - just point out that we're still far back enough from the edge of the slippery slope to keep our grip ... if we can keep our wits about us. That's how my father survived Hitler - and we can make it too.

[DaveJ]

6. Nice detailed explanation. One thing missing.

I think it deserves some mention that we are now a global society, and the liberals in the U.S. are not in as much danger as foreigners who do not embrace the GOP agenda.

[arendt]

7. ? Godless liberals anywhere are the scapegoat for this screaming mob.

Where do you get that we are in less danger than, for example, European liberals?

arendt

[DaveJ]

9. For one, we are their electorate

Putting Americans in gas chambers is a fast way of ruining an election. But they can kill a million people overseas without their base blinking an eye. I hope you don't predict they are going to do away with elections. Please rest assured I think this is great work. But it needs to be put into a more global perspective since things have changed considerably in the past 60 years.

[arendt]

21. But they're not killing "godless liberals" overseas, just untermenschen.

The Nazis made a distinction between Jews - the race enemy; and untermenschen - people like Poles and Russians, whom the Germans found "inferior" and treated like garbage.

arendt

[papau]

50. OK - but what do God fearing - and loving - Christian liberals do when the nice folks they hang with

seem to be thinging of going the Hitler route - at least by the terms of your explanation.

Restating your post replacing a few words so it reflects how the logic might be seem by the religious:

Because the "age of *actual* demons was long over", they declare the religious the new "devils":

Indeed they have a revelation - religion is not logical - this is their "gnostic" revelation

and in this altered state they find it reasonable to claim a message that all thought of God and those that think those thoughts are harming society

Societies freedoms are in danger of collapse and non-believers are in danger of annihilation.

The cause is the religious.

Resistance is necessary via all forms of the media and via political action or even economic warfare (repeal the Founders idea that the power to tax is the power to destroy - and tax the Churches).

Only a Democratic party lead by true believers is capable of mounting such a resistance.

Once we get rid of religion it will "usher in a new" era, characterized by both improvement in the logical abilities of the population and economic and social improvement

================================================================

I am sure you mean only to condemn "fundis" that want to interfer with your life by breaking down the barrier between church and state - and if that is your thought I join with you in that thought - indeed that is why I am a liberal to begin with - wishing for government to help solve the problems economic and otherwise that only it can accomplish effectively while keeping goverment out of my civil liberties.

But your construct seems open to the misinterpretation that I made above - so I am not certain references to Hitler - except to Hitler like actions the government may be taking -or to terror actions done by a group trying to impose its will- is useful in this discussion about a group of the religious called "fundi's - a group whose actions are opposed by both you and I.

[seemslikeadream]

8. 31 Similarities Between Hitler and President Bush

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles3/Jayne_Hitler-Bush.htm

31 Similarities Between Hitler and President Bush
by Edward Jayne
www.dissidentvoice.org
August 29, 2004
(revised from an earlier version posted March 29, 2003)






When President Bush decided to invade Iraq, his spokesmen began comparing Saddam Hussein to Adolph Hitler, the most monstrous figure in modern history. Everybody was therefore shocked when a high German bureaucrat turned the tables by comparing Bush himself with Hitler. As to be expected, she (the bureaucrat) was forced to resign because of her extreme disrespect for an American president. However, the resemblance sticks--there are too many similarities to be ignored, some of which may be listed here.

Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority, but was forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office.


Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized disaster, in Hitler’s case the Reichstag fire, in Bush’s case the 9-11 catastrophe.


Like Hitler, Bush went on to pursue a reckless foreign policy without the mandate of the electorate and despite the opposition of most foreign nations.


Like Hitler, Bush has increased his popularity with conservative voters by mounting an aggressive public relations campaign against foreign enemies. Just as Hitler cited international communism to justify Germany’s military buildup, Bush has used Al Qaeda and the so-called Axis of Evil to justify our current military buildup. Paradoxically none of the nations in this axis--Iraq, Iran and North Korea--have had anything to do with each other.


Like Hitler, Bush has promoted militarism in the midst of economic recession (or depression as it was called during the thirties). First he used war preparations to help subsidize defense industries (Halliburton, Bechtel, Carlyle Group, etc.) and presumably the rest of the economy on a trickle-down basis. Now he turns to the very same corporations to rebuild Iraq, again without competitive bidding and at extravagant profit levels.


Like Hitler, Bush displays great populist enthusiasm in his patriotic speeches, but primarily serves wealthy investors who subsidize his election campaigns and share with him their comfortable lifestyle. As he himself jokes, he treats these individuals at the pinnacle of our economy as his true political “base.”


Like Hitler, Bush envisages our nation’s unique historic destiny almost as a religious cause sanctioned by God. Just as Hitler did for Germany, he takes pride in his “providential” role in spreading his version of Americanism throughout the entire world.


Like Hitler, Bush promotes a future world order that guarantees his own nation’s hegemonic supremacy rather than cooperative harmony under the authority of the United Nations (or League of Nations).


Like Hitler, Bush quickly makes and breaks diplomatic ties, and he offers generous promises that he soon abandons, as in the cases of Mexico, Russia, Afghanistan, and even New York City. The same goes for U.S. domestic programs. Once Bush was elected, many leaders of these programs learned to dread his making any kind of an appearance to praise their success, since this was almost inevitably followed by severe cuts in their budgets.


Like Hitler, Bush scraps international treaties, most notably the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological Weapons Convention, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the Convention on the Prohibition of Land Mines, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Kyoto Global Warming Accord, and the International Criminal Court.

[cuke]

11. Now *there's* a new argument

Since I harshed on your last one, I feel obligated to say that this is not only reasonable, but very insightful. Even if one disagrees with your positions, and I do, you've illuminated a couple of important themes, and the perspective you added to the discussion is thought provoking

I personally don't think the religious nuts are as central as you do, but I wouldn't say you've overblown anything. I think the Mussolini type corporatists are the ones in control and they just use the theocrats. I also think they made a mistake in putting a puppet in the White House who happens to be somewhat theocratic (and I say somewhat only because * doesn't think clearly enough to be any one type of ideologue) and they won't make that mistake again

So if this is how you're going to keep bringing up Nazis, have at it! Much better than Gitmo = Dachau

[arendt]

22. Berman is really insightful. He talks about a "typology of heresy"...

For Berman, heresy is about "the body" breaking through all the religious repression.
He says that Western religion has this strong strain of denial of the body, but anyone
who engages in simple breathing practices can have a profound experience.

That is why the fundies go so nuts about "the sinful body". It is all about projecting
evil out into the body.

The question about where the energy of repression and the body sit with respect to
the social structures of the time. So, for Berman, the Inquisition against the Cathars and
the rise of science after the Reformation and the Nazis are all just the same "heresy"
showing up in different contexts, with different outcomes.

BTW - hard science types usually hate Berman. He's the guy who coined the phrase
"The Re-enchantment of the World". But, really, Berman respects science; he just
follows history where it leads.

Sorry - Berman is just a hobby-horse of mine.

arendt

[cali]

13. Were the Nazi's a millenarian movement ?

Well, according to Norman Cohn, the foremost expert on millenarianism, they shared elements of millenarianism. Cohn's criteria are:

Millenarian sects or movements always picture salvation as:

(a) collective, in the sense that it is to be enjoyed by the faithful as a collectivity.

(b) terrestial, in the sense that it is to be realized on this earth and no in some other worldly heaven

(c) imminent, in the sense that it is to come both soon and suddenly.

(d)total, in the sense that it is to utterly transform life on earth so that the new dispensation will be no mere improvement on the present, but perfection itself


(e) miraculous, in the sense that it is to be accomplished by, and or with, the help of supernatural agencies.

Do American millenarianists share the same elements? Some, but that does not mean American millenarianism = Nazis. American millenarians are heirs to a long tradition of American millenarianism going back to Increase Mather and Jonathan Edwards in the 17th and 18th centuries, and the Millerites of the 19th century.

The question Cohn and other scholars pose is: Were the Nazi's true believers, and the answer is a qualified no. The Nazis used strands of millenarian thought and created a unique philosophy that strayed in critical ways from traditional revolutionary millenarianism.

American millenarianists are almost all in the tradition of revolutionary millenarianism going back to the early middle ages and refined by such figures as Darby.

Comparing American Dominionists with Nazis is fine, as long as one knows that there are critical differences. Those differences lie chiefly in goals. The Nazis sought to create a millennium epoch brought about without relying on a supernatural force. Dominionists are wholly reliant on that element.

If you want to look at the future of American millenarianism, look to the past- but not so much the Nazi past, as revolutionary movements in medieval Europe.

The threat posed by apocalyptic thinking in our culture is undoubtedly real, but nowhere near as dire as say, the threat of global corporatization. And quite different from the Nazis.

But hey, you want to make the comparison, feel free.

Recommended reading:

The Pursuit of the Millennium: Norman Cohn
When Time Shall Be No More: Paul Boyer

[Usrename]

17. Do you think that Robertson and Falwell types are true believers?

Oh well, ok, if you say so, go with that. But I sure wish you had some scholarly support for that argument.

Maybe you can point me to someone that really thinks these new American dominionists are true believers, since that seems to be the distinction you want to focus on. I sure wouldn't put much Faith in it.

Check out some of these articles:

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/DirectoryRiseOfDominionismInAmerica.html

I don't see how anyone can make a claim that these guys are true believers, as opposed to, perhaps, one might make the claim that the Amish are true believers.

It almost seems like you are talking about a different subject. It's fascinating to me, and that's why I reply to your comments so frequently. I honestly don't get what you are saying, or how you come up with these ideas.

[cali]

18. I'm not sure about Falwell or Robertson specifically

I'm talking generally about American millenarianism. As for scholarly support, check out Boyer's book, which unlike Cohn, is a really entertaining read.

As for why I post on subjects like this one, could be because history's my area of interest, and in particularly the history of millenarianism. I can't think of a single person in the field that believes that the Falwells and Robertsons pose a threat parallel to the Nazis.

Again, I'm not saying that there aren't parallels, and I'm not saying that the Dominionists aren't a threat and aren't deeply disturbing. Anyone familiar with the cases popping up at the Air Force Academy in CO, and officers such as Boykin, can see that right wing religious fundamentalism in the armed forces is a real problem.

[Usrename]

26. I always thought the Nazis believed as deeply as anyone ever has.

They seem to have made certain sciences into a theology or a dogma that was all their own, and so they were unique in that sense, whereas the modern American Dominionist types have turned science (or more accurately, "non-science") into a theology all it's own, which is not all that different, really, IMHO.

Somehow, the modern American Dominionists end up believing in torture as a solution to terrorism. All the born-again people that I know, or talk to, advocate torture. Does that make Fallwell and Robertson a little more scary? Should it raise the threat level of these groups a little?

These people learn this stuff from somewhere, and it's fine to pretend that they learn it from watching episodes of the popular TV show 24, but I think it's much more likely that they get it from the church. There seems to be no alternate message about torture being taught at these churches. Why is that, I wonder?

[cali]

39. There's zero evidence that the Nazis

believed literal millennial doctrine. And personal anecdotes about the people you know are evidence of zip. I can play that game too: I have a dear friend who's a member of a fundamentalist church who most assuredly does not believe that, and furthermore who giggles when I say to her that if Falwell's in heaven and Gandhi's in hell, I'd rather the company in hell.

[Usrename]

40. Look, a whole bunch of these people are not the whack jobs you think they are.

I know some really good people, some of the most honest (and Christian) people I have ever met, who fell into the whole "Left Behind" rapture nonsense. That happened years and years ago. Now they ALL think torture is cool. I am not inventing this. Your friend maybe has more sense or something, I don't know her, but these are good people. Very good people. Or at least, they used to be. The ones that still talk to me are not ashamed of ANY of the recent events that have occurred. Not even when our CIA is disappearing folks.

Sure, what I am testifying to is anecdotal, of course it is, because it is MY experience. What I am telling you next is NOT anecdotal. The majority of Americans have no problem with torture. Most people think it's just fine. So, to me, that means that most people are damaged somehow. And when I see a multitude of people, that I know are good people, buying into the whole torture model of humanity, then I have to ask why that is.

So you tell me, why is that?

And by the way, I think that the "Third Reich" was also referred to as the "Thousand Year Reich", so asserting that there is ZERO evidence that the Nazis were millennial sounds kind of foolish.

[cali]

41. I'll only deal with your last statement

The Nazis borrowed the imagry of Millenialism re the thousand year thing. They did not believe in the second coming of Christ and chiliaism. I trust you can see the difference. It's foolish not to.

In fact, the Nazis borrowed liberally from Christianity to appeal to the masses. That does not indicate belief.

[Usrename]

42. It's still wrong to decree there is ZERO evidence. There is some.

You know, I ALWAYS assume your questions are sincere.

And since I want to communicate with people who ask sincere questions, I ALWAYS try to answer questions, if I can, whatever they are. Sometimes I just can't answer because I don't know or it's a secret or something. In that case I try to at least give a reason why I can't answer.

Why not, just for the sake of argument, try to answer one simple question I've asked you. If you want to add some additional statements, fine, that's ok, but at least try and answer a legitimate question. For once. Or maybe you thought the question was simply rhetorical, or beneath you somehow, and not deserving of an answer. Just wondering. Help me out here.

Why do you think so many Americans believe that torture is good? Do you have any guesses why this is? Do you think it's normal?

[cali]

43. I have no way of answering that.

First off, I'm not tuned in to the MSM, so I don't really know what influences emanate from them, or how powerful those influences are. And I don't know whether the majority of Americans do believe that torture is legitimate. The majority certainly didn't condone Abu Gharib.

I suppose like most things it's a confluence of elements that enable them to condone torture, but how much influence each element has, is somthing I can only speculate on. Fear certainly plays into it and mass culture via movies and tv, plus the demonization of the "other".

[Usrename]

47. fear and the demonization of the "other"

That's a fine answer, if you ask me. Another Nazi specialty. Enhancing the ways to prey on the public's natural xenophobia. I'm pretty sure they studied it. It was explained to me (when I was young) that some of their human experiments were dedicated to uncovering the science behind this. How our fears are manifest, which we are born with, and which ones we learn. I was also told that they experimented on babies in order to understand how we communicate, what parts of language are learned and what parts we are born with. They did hideous things to real people to find out stuff. And then they USED the information that they learned. They probably weren't as good as the modern-day junta (the new guys are standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to manipulating the masses), but by almost everyones accounts, they became very adept at all sorts of propaganda and coercion methods.

That's what I was told.

Also, I was told that people are born pre-programmed for language. If babies have had no contact with people they will spontaneously invent a language (strikingly similar to ASL) in order to communicate when they reach the age where they would normally begin to talk. Somehow, they also determined that we come pre-wired with a healthy dose of xenophobia. Presumably, even though we are a cooperative species (born out by the genetic coding for language), it is also advantageous to have some built-in fear of strangers. Hiding from strangers might have been a better bet than greeting them, or something. Anyhow, I think the current occupants of some of the seats of power have good access to a whole lot of this kind of information. I would not be shocked if they collect items that once belonged to Dr Mengele himself. The guy really did exist. There really are monsters out there.

Thanks for giving it a shot, it is appreciated.

[cali]

49. You're welcome. I'm actually really enjoying this

exchange Ok, fear and the demonization of the other isn't just a Nazi specialty; I'd go so far as to say it's a human specialty. The inquisition, witch hunts etc, come immediately to mind.

I just want to make one note- an appropriate one I think- I believe I know what you're saying when you use the word monster, but it's one I try and steer clear of, because we're all human, even Dr. Mengele, and when we try and explain things by describing someone who has done terribly, even unthinkable things, we're really moving away from explaining anything- least of all our own dark side.

[Usrename]

52. Right, we have enough of our own monsters right here in this country.

Dahlmer, the BTK killer, those are the types I'm talking about. What happens when these kind of people are intentionally given positions of authority in a society? It can't be a good thing. The Nazis would intentionally, and knowingly, and willfully, do all kinds of stuff like that. They expanded the science of human behavior exponentially, way beyond anything that the Inquisitioners could have dreamed about.

And still, I honestly think that if they had had knowledge of social networks (like this administration has) then the entire outcome could have been changed, or least substantially delayed. Occupied Europe would have looked a lot different if they only knew exactly who to neutralize in order to pacify an area.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

14. Well done. recommended.

[Usrename]

15. Symbolism was huge with those guys.

And, at least initially, they had God on their side too!



http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,405922,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,594882,00.jpg

[rusty quoin]

16. Your "POLITICAL STATEMENTS IN AMERICA TODAY" fits O'Reilly's philosophy.

1. America is in danger of imminent collapse and annihilation.
2. The cause of this is secular humanist/liberal conspiracy.
3. Resistance is necessary via the fundamentalist Christian movement.
4. Only the GOP is capable of mounting such a resistance.
5. This will usher in a Christian nation, characterized by both "family values" and "the free market".

With his self created S.P's and T.W,'s, and his strong adherence to #5, prove your point well, and he is only one of many voices, with millions of loyal followers.

[arendt]

36. The fact the man is still on the air, offering nothing but fundie hatred, is proof...

that we still have a lot to worry about from the fundies. War on Christmas, my ass.

And, why don't the Democratic politicians take this clown on? He should be fined or fired. Why is only Jon Stewart allowed to point out this guy's visible insanity?

arendt

[GreenTea]

19. I've been reading almost exclusively about fascism, Hitler, the Nazis, the SS, the Gestapo

with my broken wrist keeping me from doing much else but reading and reading and listening to music, using the computer....and refusing to get caught up watching TV.....But though I mostly knew or read much of what I'm reading now and the control of the German people via controlling the media, information & propaganda....It's truly amazing how parallel BushCo is to the Nazis in all aspects....I know Rove and many others are great admirers of the Nazis and BushCo does things exactly like the Nazi regime, either by design, or accidentally, or it's the only way to achieve total fascism...To understand Bush and what they are capable of, what methods they will use and even what to expect next just do some reading on the Nazis....I'm sure you have and know all of what I'm telling you....but read again on any aspect with a Google search...like say "Nazi media & propaganda.....and there you will indeed have your answers to Bush and in many cases, what they will do next.



"All propaganda has to be popular and has to adapt its spiritual level to the perception of the least intelligent of those towards whom it intends to direct itself."

-Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf ("My Struggle"), Vol. I

[txaslftist]

45. Of course they are similar.

First of all, any such movement toward totalitarianism must share characteristics.

Secondly, it is in the family, you know. The grandfathers of our president were great admirers and financiers of the Nazis, and their associates attempted a crude fascist military takeover of the United States in the 1930s that was foiled by the integrity of General Smedley Butler.

There was a big investigation, but of course, the founders of that movement were important men and rich, so the whole thing was swept under the rug.

They are attempting to do now, with more finesse, what they attempted then and failed to do.

This is clear.

[cosmicdot]

23. and, my candidate for the Board of Directors of it all ...

the CNP ... an organization which meets in secret yet is organized under IRS tax exempt regulations ... go figure, mission accomplished ... the confluence where the rich-corporatist theocratic types (like Howard Ahmanson who helped bankroll the Diebold voting machines - and, we know what results that has yielded, i.e. stolen, usurped power; agenda-advancement) and Pat Robertson (he's been demonizing liberals nightly for decades) meet up and work with the Paul Weyrich types ("We are no longer working to preserve the status quo. We are radicals, working to overturn the present power structure in this country.") and Richard Mellon Scaife and Ollie North types ... I would say the CNP is a good candidate for the Octopus's head.



Sith Lords of the Ultra-Right
by Steven D
Tue Feb 22, 2005 at 12:55:24 PM PDT
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/2/22/155525/061


imho, they're traitors; and, if their network was somehow broken up ... wonder how that might help ?

[arendt]

34. DINGDINGDING - we have a winner. "Cheney meets CNP in secret"...

you, the taxpayers, have no right to know what these traitors are plotting.

Oh, and thanks for bringing up the voting machines! Anyone who blows off fundamentalism as a spent force should consider that they still control the majority of voting machines.

arendt

[WizardTN]

61. Correction to the koz article

The koz article states that they are so secretive that you will not find a website.

The CNP does in fact have a website and it has been registered since 1999.
They have been a part of my "radar" list for a while.

Here it is: http://www.policycounsel.org/

Their speakers list makes for interesting reading.

Also the CPD is back. They surfaced with a new website this last July. They have died twice in my lifetime but someone has revived them. Has an IMPRESSIVE bunch of hawks on their members list this time.
________

I promised myself I would never post in any DU forum again after I was attacked and flamed and accused of being a freeper...etc. etc., by a group of the idiots that seem to think they control this place. However, I did feel that this information was important enough to break my vow. I would hate to think I was the only one watching them.

[Irreverend IX]

24. I don't think so.

The fundies will never be able to escape their role as pawns of the moneyed elite. They're on the ropes now and their old masters are in the process of choosing new sockpuppets, quite possibly Hillary Clinton and the DLC Democrats. Mammon will always win over "God," and religious zealotry has had its day.

Even when the "born again" movement was at its peak with Bush's 2001 coronation, John Ashcroft was kind of the laughingstock of the administration, a bone thrown to Bronze Age wackos. The evangelicals in the military are no different, and they won't be given long enough leashes to do anything like launching nukes.

[tom_paine]

25. They can bite all of us who saw from the beginning, arendt

We proud few...and even still at this late date, with almost all the Bushie plans and schemes revealed in all their soviet-like evil, and still not even 10% of the Imperial ASubjects of Amerika know or care. They're all waiting to be saved by 2008.

When the BEST, I think, the very best we can hope for is a semi-happy break between 8 year Bushie vampire-suckings.

As always, I hope I am wrong.

[artemisia1]

27. Kicked and recommended. /nt

[Karenina]

28. again. eom

[Disturbed]

29. The so called Christian RWing get their inspiration from the

OT. The don't really believe in the message of Jesus.

The believe in the following.


Capital Punishment Crimes:

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)



2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)



3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)



4) Miscellaneous Murders

More of Samson's Murders
(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

Peter Kills Two People
There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

The Danites Kill the Next Town
But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)

God Kills Some More
Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

God Promises More Killing
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

The Angel of Death
My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 NAB)

Destruction of Ai
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city." So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: "Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, 'The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.' Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders." So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.
Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn't realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.
Then the LORD said to Joshua, "Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city." Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.
When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)

Killing at Jericho
When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

God Kills an Extended Family
"You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'" Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam's wife, "Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him." (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

Mass Murder
The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

The Angel of Death
That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)

Kill Your Neighbors
(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Kill the Family of Sinners
And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it." "So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)

Kill Followers of Other Religions
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

Murder
At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, "O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself." Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!" Then Elijah commanded, "Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don't let a single one escape!" So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

Kill All of Babylon
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Micah Kills a Whole Town
Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

[arendt]

33. I am saving this encyclopedia of reasons why the OT sucks...

it was only centuries after Jesus died that the Christian establishment of the time decided to include the OT - to suit their authoritarian agenda.

Thanks for the research.

arendt

[jpgray]

30. I don't know who you aim to convince, since you've put anyone who disagrees on ignore

Why you've posted several threads on this issue when you can only see the posts of the already-convinced is a mystery to me. Perhaps it's to facilitate your bragging about having people on ignore, or how anyone who disagrees must be an unpatriotic coward or book-burner.

So your standard for Nazi comparison is the age-old "fear coupled with demonization" tactic? The idea that there is a horrible force aiming to destroy our way of life and only we can defeat it? This idea is used for political gain?

Congratulations. You just described almost every major government in history. I guess they must all be like the Nazis! Elizabeth II, Peter I, FDR, Lincoln, all the presidents during the cold war except Carter (Reagan, Nixon, etc.), there's no end to the governments that have used your overly general criteria.

Again the comparison is just -way- too generalized to be useful. If I use your criteria to make Nazi comparisons, I can compare almost -any- regime to the Nazis. That makes the comparison lose any useful meaning. You have to narrow it down by paying attention to the -magnitude- of the Nazi response, and the methods and causes on a contextual, societal level. Otherwise your comparison will lead to a lot of absurdity, and be so universally applicable as to be meaningless.

[Perry Logan]

31. Today's wingers want to be Nazis. But they're WAY too stupid and cowardly to bring it off.

[mogster]

32. You can read a lot from their lingo

They have a quasi-religious, crusade-ish way of breaking their point of view into the public space. Our daily life is full of it.

'Coalition of the Willing'
'Shock and awe'
'Axis of evil'

As their God-like moment stands 911, the event that kicked off the crusade aganist terrorism, but in reality was as much a grab for homeland power, and later; world power.

In the difficult picture such fundamentalism creates between what's really good and what's really evil, one may put one question to oneself to solve it:
Did you lose freedom on the 11th of September 2001 or did you gain freedom on 11th of September 2001?

One might take it further:
Do we, ever, need terrorism to feel free? Do we, ever, need wars to get things done, get our politics realized? Is fear recommendable as a democratic tool, to control the population? The answer must be a clear NO, because democracy and war cannot coexist. Every nation going to war, even for a good reason such as to defend itself, will transform into a dictatorship.
Freely, as in the case of Britain during WWII. Although under a coalition government, the country was run like a dictatorship. Churchill was the dictator to meet the need to defeat Hitler, but he was no peace time politician. The Brits knew this and dumped him when the war was over and elected the mild-mannered Clement Atlee instead. This is a mirror of what happened in Norway, where the Norwegians got rid of Quisling when the war was done and elected the mild-mannered Gerhardsen - only that the Brits had freely accepted and endorsed Churchill to be their war time dictator while Quisling had grabbed power illegaly, against the will of the population. And I have to add, Churchill delivered what he was supposed to deliver and didn't resist being replaced when his term was up.
But war time needs differ from peace time needs. The 'war' on terror has moved the need for democracy to be a need for dictatorship and every thing they do brings us further down that road.

[arendt]

35. Fundamentalists still have tax-exempt status, even as they preach partisan hatred...

And the only churches the government prosecutes are Unitarians and Quakers who preach peace and war resistance.

We must revoke the tax-exempt status of EVERY religion. The good ones will survive. The real-estate scams and pedophile protectors will go under. They have done this in Europe, and it works. Its called something like secularization.

----

But, to your post - yes, they "slowly reveal the gestalt", as Berman would put it. He says that the Hitler carefully titrated how much of his anti-Christian agenda was released. He clamped down hard on public spiritualists, even as his inner circle (especially Himmler) dabbled in the occult.

So, these crafted phrases like "Axis of Evil" introduce the religious connotation of "evil", i.e., the devil, into the political conversation. Everyone says Bush talks in code to the fundies. Bush blurs the line between the GWOT and the religious war against secularism, against being comfortable in your own body, against feminism.

arendt

[eppur_se_muova]

37. Domionists are pretty freaking scary, even without Nazis to compare them to. nt

[nashville_brook]

38. morning kick...

[txaslftist]

44. Of course the Nazis are relevant to political discussions.

Of all kinds.

They represent an extreme example of a political shift in a particular direction with disastrous consequencees. Just as do the totalitarian communists or the ultranationalist paranoid regime of Pol Pot.

"It cannot happen here" is the stupidest form of self-deception. Of course it can happen here. It has happened everywhere else, has it not? "It", being tyranny, mindless murder of innocents, callous government, mass death... "It" happened in France under Napoleon. It happened in Britain under the Roundheads. It happened of course in Poland and Czechoslavakia and all over the world. I would challenge you to find a place where "it" didn't happen.

Of course the Nazis are relevant today. They are a curb upon our appetites and excesses, and thus remain relevant always.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. Afternoon kick. nt

:kick:

[truedelphi]

48. I agree. They can just BITE me too!

[Octafish]

51. THIS is why DU is relevant.

Thank you for a great analysis, arendt. Only by knowing the enemy can they be defeated.

Here's a bit on where the Bush Crime Family came into the picture:

Rockefeller Associates

By Richard Sanders, Editor, Press for Conversion!

The Rockefellers were heavy financial backers of the American Liberty League.

John Davison Rockefeller (1839-1937), the world’s first billionaire, was America’s most generous philanthropist, fascist financier and Nazi collaborator.

Although Rockefeller’s wealth was based largely on a near global control of oil refining, he also had large interests in other monoplies. As Anthony Sutton notes, Rockefeller

“controlled the copper trust, the smelters trust and the gigantic tobacco trust, in addition to having influence in some Morgan properties such as the U.S. Steel Corporation as well as in hundreds of smaller industrial trusts, public service operations, railroads and banking institutions. National City Bank was the largest of the banks influenced by Standard Oil-Rockefeller, but financial control extended to the U.S. Trust Co. and Hanover National Bank major life insurance companies – Equitable Life and Mutual of New York” (Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution, 1981).

His incredible rags-to-riches success story owes much to what he learned from his father’s attitudes towards business and respect for the public good. Descended from hardworking German immigrants, his father William Avery Rockefeller was a travelling, snake oil salesman. “Big Bill” excelled as a quack doctor, or pitch man, conning the sick and desperate into buying expensive remedies that were either useless or downright dangerous. “He would be gone for months and come back with a great roll of money…. He would go to small towns and put up handbills advertising himself as ‘The Celebrated Dr. Levingston.’ He advertised to cure anything, but made a specialty of cancer and kidney troubles” (MacDonald, “Double Life,” New York World, February 2, 1908). But these were not “Doc’s” only crimes. He was indicted for rape, but was not arrested or tried. He fled the area with family and escaped neighbours who accused him of horse thieving, burglary, arson and counterfeiting. He had two wives, simultaneously, and was a bigamist for 34 years. He met his second wife in Norwich, Ontario, where he sold lumber in 1853, calling himself William Levingston.

William’s example provided ample life lessons to his sons about the business values of duplicity, deceit, and a blatant disregard for public health. John dropped out of high school in 1855 to take a business course. He worked as a bookkeeper and then teamed up with a friend to start a grain commission business. In 1863, the Civil War propelled him into the oil business. That year, he – like J.P. Morgan and other rising stars – paid $300 to avoid conscription. It was a small price for them, but unattainable for the thousands who would die. At first, he sold whiskey at inflated rates to Federal soldiers. Then, he invested his profits in oil refineries. The South had been supplying turpentine to the North for camphene-fueled lights. When the war cut off the North’s access to this fuel, kerosene from Pennsylvania oil quickly took over as the lamp fuel of choice and stimulated his oil business.

CONTINUED...

http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/53/rockefeller.html

And so, those bloodlines with money are the new aristocracy. Isn't that idea un-American.

[NoGodsNoMasters]

53. Interesting comparisons...

COSMOLOGICAL TRANSLATIONS
1. End of Being (ontological destruction).
2. Demonlogy (identification of the devil)
3. Call for eschatological war
4. Identification of the agents of God
5. Salvation, redemption, a new Jerusalem

Let's see...

1."We need to fight 'em there, so we don't have to fight 'em here!"
2. "the 'Qaedas, Axis of Evil"
3. "War on Terror"
4."You don't change horses midstream."
6. "Mission Accomplished!"

[Elspeth]

54. Way to go, Atman

kicking :)

[flordehinojos]

55. thank you, arendt

for connecting so many of the dots to which so many of the people are blinded to.

[Beerboy]

56. Without being overly academic,

the Nazis are relevant because they represented and fought for white christians. Culturally and societally, America and Germany hardly differ at all. WW2 was more of a civil war amongst white people. Hitler won insofar as all human beings everywhere, no matter their race, recognize white people and their 'civilizations' as Nazis and Auschwitz; it's what white people do.
Auschwitz is the pinnacle, or nadir, of white western achievement. It's the benchmark against which to measure the alleged "humanity" of the white folks that built Western civilization, on the enslaved backs of black folks.
There's very little to discern from the slavery and death-camps of one white society to the next. Most of the world laughs at the proposition that the United States is somehow fundamentally different from the Third Reich. The only difference is that the Third Reich was probably more popular in world polls than the U.S. will ever be, because of it's overt honesty.
Other than that, there's no appreciable philosophical differences between the Reich and the U.S. The common denominator is that both people agree that there is no limit to how much government they need to control them, and they'll drain the coffers to do it.
It's not a mystery why the world's biggest Holocaust museum/institute is in America...

[The Wizard]

57. There's no nice way to say Nazi

And the Bush Sycophants will come to be known as Bush/Davidians or the Talibush, or the goose stepping two steppers. As Mel Brooks might say, "heil, heil, ziggity heil, gonna whip it on the people Teutonic style."

[mojowork_n]

58. This is the best discussion of the subject I've ever read:

From just about one year ago, in the NYRB:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19590

Very insightful, from my point of view at least.

[McCamy Taylor]

59. Nazis=DUALISM=Bush Terra=War on Drugs=Commie Witch Hunts

Dualism is the real issue here. Everything you have posted is correct, but if you frame the issue as dualism vs. non dualism, I think it will be easier to explain it to people and to help them to recognize helpful religion versus dangerous religion.

If you keep harping on "Nazism is a kind of religion" then the dualists who hate religion will use that as an excuse to say "purge the world of all religions and we will have paradise." As if forcing native peoples to give up their millenia old traditions will in some way make their lives better or forcing the people of Burma to stop being Buddhist will make their lives better or forcing South America to give up Liberation Theology will make its life better.

I also have issues with the definition of gnosticism. I know what the official meaning is supposed to be, but I think it has historically included more kinds of religious thought than that (at least when the Catholic Church was doing its purges), and I do not want people to think that anyone who believes in the direct self realization of the divine must also believe in dualism. Lots of people's mystical vision is that there is no good and evil .

Nowadays, dangerous religion is dualistic. It says "I can spot evil and I can purge it from the world and create paradise." It says "Those people are evil and I can purge them from the world and create paradise." It says "Your basic human nature is flawed, because of the way you were born, and there is nothing you can do about it. You are going to hell and I hate you, and my religion praises me for feeling this way." It says "I am going to kill and oppress others to 'save their souls.'" I say nowadays, because it is possible that 10,000 years ago during the European ice ages, primitive humans had to be prepared to eat other humans to survive and maybe at that time a dualistic religion was the key to life.

Beneficial religion has as its bottom line "I love you as myself, and I love everything about you, because being born human, you are worthy of love. While I will restrain you if you try to hurt me or others, I will also try to understand and help you in your darkest hour, so that you can become a more loving person."

It is usually really clear which of these two classes a religion belongs to.


The corporations and the right wing enlisted the aid of the dualistic religious right because they can use them to create FEAR in people, which can be used to control them. Also, the second, non dualistic type of religion is the single most powerful force on earth when it comes to motivating people to ignore their own instinct for self preservation in order to resist government tyranny and injustice to protect the safety and lives of strangers. Witness Christian villages in Europe which saved Jews because they believed more in Christ than in their fear of the Nazis. Or the Liberation Theologists. On the monks in Burma. This is why China fears the Dali Lama. The left wing priests in the 60s and 70s hurt the right wing in the US, so now they want to co-opt religion. It is important not to let them do so.

[Usrename]

60. Dualism vs non dualism, thank you.

I'm bookmarking this post and I'm sure I'll be incorporating this idea into my own rhetoric. It's a no-nonsense approach.

I've been having a lot of trouble grappling with exactly what you just defined so well. For quite a long time, I think, I've been looking at it completely wrong - framing it all in a science vs religion context, or a faithful vs hypocrite argument. Trying to understand different peoples views of this kind of thing is very sketchy and sometimes frustrating; especially with all the generalizations that are commonly used which don't really separate out things like teachers from the students, or leaders from the followers, or hypocrites from the faithful; all sorts of lumping together going on. It's a mess.

Also, when viewed in this manner, it sure is a whole lot easier to see how the lines between dualism and nationalism can be so easily blurred. They just different flavors of the same soup. (More like a thin gruel, really.)

[juno jones]

62. kick

great post!