OK. I'm about to go ballistic here! "Moment of silence mandated in Illinois schools"

[in_cog_ni_to]

My son just told me that they were told they had to take a "moment of silence today because it is now the LAW IN ILLINOIS!!! The teacher REFUSED to say what the "moment of silence was for, so I just Googled it and this is what I found. The fucking Legislature voted to override Blago's veto!@#$%$#@ They are now mandating PRAYER IN ILLINOIS SCHOOLS!


Moment of silence mandated in Illinois schools

SPRINGFIELD—State lawmakers thrust Illinois into the center of the national debate on school prayer today as the House approved legislation to require public schools to provide students with a moment of silence at the start of classes.

Students from kindergarten through high school will be allowed to silently pray in whatever faith they practice or simply sit and reflect quietly. Illinois teachers and students have had the option of doing so since 2002, but it wasn't mandated.

The Illinois House voted to override Gov. Rod Blagojevich's late August veto of the silent-moment measure. The governor cited concerns about the separation of church and state.



"The law in Illinois today already allows teachers and students the opportunity to take a moment for silent thought or prayer, if they chose to," Blagojevich wrote. "I believe this is the right balance between the principles echoed in our constitution, and our deeply held desire to practice our faith. As a parent, I am working with my wife to raise our children to respect prayer and to pray because they want to pray—not because they are required to."<snip>

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-legis12_weboct12,0,6245540.story?coll=chi_tab01_layout

[Benhurst]

1. Oden must be worshiped and obeyed.

[MADem]

2. Well, it's not prayer. It's SILENCE. It's fundy wishywashing, but

I'd say it's time to get LOCAL and start changing the character and color of the Illinois House. Give those bastards an inch....

Of course, you could always teach your kid how to pray like they do in the mosque. Have him and his friends all go to it--then they might 'take issue' with this and you'd have a fun court case on your hands!

After all, if some are allowed to reflect, or pray, those who pray by prostrating themselves would be denied the same opportunities as the Sit On Yer Ass praying types, and surely there's GOTTA be a LAW!!!!!

I'm guessing that the same people who passed this law probably wouldn't like any of that bowing and prostrating type prayer, now, would they? But so long as they did it SILENTLY, well, what's the diff, eh?????

Cognitive dissonance, it's so much fun!

[The Backlash Cometh]

81. Kids should have post 'ems availabe that they can put on their foreheads

during this time. Imagine how they could fill this out:

I'm not praying, I'm thinking ______________.

[MADem]

90. Or unusual prayer accoutrements, for those doing some praying.

How about a crown of thorns?

Or tefillin/phylacteries?

Maybe generic ones, not just for Jews?

How about slapping down a rug and a stone for the old forehead, after maybe doing a little ritual washup with baby wipes???


All in TOTAL silence, of course!!!

[FloridaJudy]

102. Don't forget the mala

(AKA Buddhist/Hindu rosary)

[MADem]

104. Now THAT would be a fun pose for school!! nt

[BonnieJW]

82. Or have them recite a Wiccan prayer.

I am Jewish and a friend mentioned to me that she couldn't understand why anyone would object to prayer in school. I said, "OK. Let's make it a Hebrew prayer and read it over the loudspeaker."

[MADem]

84. Naah, it's gotta be SILENT, see? That's how they'll get them.

But if there were a bunch of fairly overt hand gestures and maybe a bit of prancing associated with the effort (I am not schooled in Wiccan prayer) it would be enough to set their fundy teeth on edge. See, they're going for the Praying Hands and the Quiet Sitting at The Desk paradigm.

Ya gotta fuck with their paradigm, and get them outta their comfort zone! Then maybe they'll see the issue...

[FloridaJudy]

92. Does this mean

I can perch cross-legged on the edge of my seat, stroking my singing bowl and chanting "Om"? Way cool!!

Maybe all of us Buddhists/Hindus/Moslems/Unitarians/Humanists/Agnostics/Pagans should use this opportunity to pray in our own traditions ("Goddess: if you exist..."). I suspect it might make the legislature back off a tad.

Contrary to what the fundies believe, prayer has never been outlawed in public schools - just officially sponsored prayer. Students are still allowed to pray during their free time. As for me, I silently prayed to the spirit of Isaac Newton to get me through those calculus exams. I figured it wouldn't hurt, though studying would probably be more effective.

[MADem]

101. You'll have to 'MOUTH" that OHMMMMMM bit. Gotta be SILENT, see???

I think everyone should bring all sorts of "accoutrements" for their moment of silence! It'll make the whole adventure interesting!!!!

[robinlynne]

3. And the department of family services is headed by an "abstinence only"

representative. bizarro country.

[sailor65]

4. The teacher was right

not to answer you, since the moment is not specifically "For" anything.

"Since then, some states have been moving to what they call a neutral moment of silence," said Rob Boston, spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a watchdog group in Washington, D.C. "They don't mandate the moment be used for prayer. And the trend has been for the courts to uphold those. We don't like them, but generally speaking the courts are more receptive to that idea."

It's a silent moment, to be used any way the student sees fit, and the initiative was driven by Democrats. Nothing in it mandates prayer at all, so what's your problem?

By the way, you should edit again since you said they are "Mandating prayer in Illinois schools," which is a lie.

[emilyg]

5. Thanks.

[Book Lover]

6. "... to be used any way the student sees fit..."

Well, as long as what the student wants requires neither sound nor movement nor more than 60 or so seconds.

[in_cog_ni_to]

8. It's not a lie. That's EXACTLY what the fundies have done. They finally got their freakin' foot in

the door.

[sailor65]

11. Of course it's a lie

because the bill does not mandate prayer. Pretty simple.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. If it doesn't mandate prayer why didn't they leave the law as it WAS?

This is the fundies foot in the door, plain and simple. You can call it whatever you want, but we all know what it's meant to do. Now it's MANDATED BY LAW! It sucks.

Can't you read?

Students from kindergarten through high school will be allowed to silently pray in whatever faith they practice or simply sit and reflect quietly. Illinois teachers and students have had the option of doing so since 2002, but it wasn't mandated.

"The law in Illinois today already allows teachers and students the opportunity to take a moment for silent thought or prayer, if they chose to," Blagojevich wrote. "I believe this is the right balance between the principles echoed in our constitution, and our deeply held desire to practice our faith.

[charlie]

17. Actually

They've had the option do so since 1969. In 2002, they slipped in the bit about, pray if you want to, as long as it's not "disruptive", it's your right. Now they've made the moment mandatory. There's a progression here.

At the very least, they've put teachers in the middle of whatever brouhahas result. Stupid thing to do.

[sailor65]

18. Of course I can read

perhaps English fails you?

Despite creative application of bold font by you, "or simply sit and reflect quietly" is still there!

Yup, still there.


Yup, CHOICE.



I'd better go back and look again........
nope, still doesn't mandate prayer.

BTW, have you ever tried to take a "Voluntary" moment of silence in a room full of funloving kids?
Good luck with that, but you go right on looking for enemies around every corner.

Geez

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. CHOICE MY ASS!!! It's now MANDATED BY LAW! THAT is not a freakin' CHOICE.

The only enemies I have are those who continue to shove their freakin' religion down my son's throat. I'm sick of it.

[spoony]

25. Right now, with this specific law and without speculating on the future

what exactly is being "shoved down (your) son's throat"?

[sailor65]

28. It's not the prayer that's mandated

just the silence.

Which means most kids will be thinking about Halo or Barbie anyway.

And if those are the only enemies you have, then I congratulate you on being one of the safest people in America.

But considering your massive angst over nothing, I suspect YOUR worst enemy is a whole lot closer to you than you think.

[Perseid]

21. I think that it should be looked at as a foot in the door

not someone all of a sudden gunning down abortion doctors, but a foot in the door. They've been doing this for the past 27 years, and have become damn good at it.

[papau]

19. It is the same as what was being done in Illinois in the 40's and 50's - followed by the pledge -

every morning.

I remember it as being "hard" to stay still for 30 seconds.

[spoony]

27. That's something that confuses me

I hear stories from older people about the level of religion in the schools, whether in lessons or comments or holidays, and it sounds like it was there in spades with the assumption that everyone was the same religion. Things seem relatively secular now, with the exception of creationism, so I have a hard time mustering up much outrage over things like this moment of silence thing.

[Ino]

39. They couldn't get creationism in the schools

So they called it Intelligent Design (wink, wink)

They couldn't get prayer in the schools.
So they called it a Moment of Silence.

[papau]

45. I agree - downstate Illinois did the praying-but I had one teacher who was into "Grace" before lunch

Most kids I knew were asked to - like myself - do the silence moment rather than any prayer (we must have had more than the required number of Jewish kids! :-) )

But Southern Illinois certainly did Christian prayer each morning.

This moment of silence would have been called a liberal interference with community standards back in the 40's - now some find silence and meditation offensive for some reason. Although meditation, in Christian tradition, is part of what is called "centering prayer", I'd give this one a pass as quietly thinking is a good habit to teach, in my opinion.

[laylah]

49. I went to school

in a small town in Illinois, in the late '50's, early '60's and do not remember prayer at all in the classroom. Pledge of Allegiance, yes, prayer, no. But then I lived in a one horse town filled with small minded people, maybe they didn't "do" prayer?

[FLDCVADem]

41. Prayer is not mandated

Silence is. Huge difference.

I'm not really sure why this needs to be mandated, since students already have the Constitutional right to pray in school, if they choose to do so. However, so long as prayer isn't being mandated, I don't see what the problem is.

[Occulus]

99. Part of the problem lies in the fact that some people don't see this as a problem. n/t

[FLDCVADem]

115. I'm one of those people

As I said before, I don't see why it is mandated, since kids already have the right to pray in school. At the same time, I don't see why this is such a big deal to anyone. Mandating prayer? Huge issue, and it wouldn't stand up for a minute. But mandating a moment of silence? So what? The kids have to keep their mouths shut for 60 seconds? This is some kind of imposition that absolutely must be stopped?

Sorry, but I just don't see it. If your kids don't want to pray during the minute, then by all means, they shouldn't. The kids that want to pray, fine, let 'em pray.

Seriously, this is not something that would cause panty-wadding syndrome with me.

[me b zola]

14. Perhaps the moment of silence could be used...

...to expel gas.

[OnyxCollie]

31. Or present a tribute to Marcel Marceau. nt

[cali]

7. You're about to go ballistic over this?

Well, each to their own, I guess.

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. You're damn right I am.

:grr:

[Perseid]

10. start with baby steps, and end up with

fascist boots on goose-stepping feet.

[alfredo]

12. Farts and giggles, not silence. Kids will be kids.

[Perseid]

13. one thing I HAVE learned, is that

these people are connected, have similar, if not the same agendas, and a long term plan.

I've watched them since Reagan screwed Carter in 1980. That's a long term plan, folks.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. That's exactly right. Baby steps. Year after year after year they try to get prayer in schools. Now

that they have a "moment of silence", what's the harm of a little lunch time meal prayer? What would be so bad about a little prayer before a test? What's the harm. I KNOW where this is headed.

[alfredo]

22. Their plans will be undercut by class clowns statewide.

[Perseid]

24. sorry friend, I don't know what that statement means

I could be dense.

[alfredo]

33. As soon as the room gets quiet some kid will make a funny noise,

causing others to start laughing. Of course the teacher will try to find who did it. She/he will accuse the usual suspect and he will protest whether he did it or not. The moment of silence will be anything but a moment of silence. In time the teachers will dispense of the moment of silence just to cut down on discipline problems.

[youthere]

71. Hah...

my son would derail that in seconds...
the other day I gotta'a call from the teacher he was disrupting "quiet time". I asked how so and she replied he was "chirping". I asked, "Why would he do that". She said, "I told them I didn't want to hear a 'peep ' out of them so he started saying "chirp".
It was hard not to laugh.

[Selatius]

23. I don't believe it violates the 1st Amendment, as it doesn't mandate any one religion over another.

It remains mute on the issue of religion except mandating a moment of silence.

[Perseid]

26. why should a legislative body mandate

a moment of silence in a classroom?

why have the taxpayers had to pay for whatever number of hours it took to come up with this ridiculous legislation?

Really.

Why does the government have to mandate a moment of silence?

Think about it a bit more. Why is the government involved at all?

[Selatius]

29. Short answer: It doesn't, but at the same time, I don't see it as a violation.

I'm not a judicial authority, but I generally don't see federal district courts striking this down, much less the US Supreme Court.

Why is the government involved? Because of religion. I'll tell you they found a loophole.

[Perseid]

30. that's what they do

it's the thing that they do so well.

[Selatius]

32. I'm sure it will begin spreading to other states in short order. n/t

[charlie]

34. Table of states with "silent reflection" laws

http://law.jrank.org/pages/11817/Prayer-in-Public-Schools.html

Most states have 'em. The listing isn't consistent about noting which ones are mandatory, though.

[ProfessorGAC]

87. It's A Violation Of My Taxation

I don't pay these buffoons to pass law on this sort of nonsense.
The Professor

[in_cog_ni_to]

118. Did you see this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2084448&mesg_id=2101849

[silverojo]

35. Pull your kid out of school and homeschool him

If enough parents do that, the schools will get less tax money, and they'll get the message.

[orleans]

36. goddamn it! i didn't hear about this.

if my daughter was still in high school i'd go crazy.

can't these religious parents pray with their children over breakfast if that is what they are compelled to do?

why do they have to shove it in everyone's face?

there would be my daughter, sitting at her desk, feeling uncomfortable, embarrassed, ill-brought up, like an outcast

while everyone else PRAYS

my tax dollars hard at work, paying for a fucking moment of silence

if these "moments" of silence equate one minute then that is ONE HOUR lost for every two and a half months of school. by the looks of some of the schools in illinois i'd say that can't afford to lose a fucking minute of time with these kids and their education.

well, we all know what the moment of silence is for--and it's not for reflection. i never needed a moment of mass/group reflection when i was in school. i reflected on my own time thank you very much--when i was alone and not sitting amid an entire classroom of people.

[Zywiec]

47. Why would your daughter feel uncomfortable?

If everyone is sitting at their desk silently, how do they know that she's not thinking about the math test about to be conducted?

[orleans]

86. they don't know that she's not thinking about a math test.

they all know that the purpose of this crap is for prayer

my daughter does not pray

and she doesn't like feeling like an outcast

do you?

[depakid]

37. How many Dems sold you out on that?

It's gotten to be quite an impressive pattern, eh?

[LeftCoast]

38. That's not very constructive

Why not instead focus on the specific Dems you are angry with rather than the many that did not support this?

[depakid]

40. Just an unconvenient truth....

A pattern that's been repeated over and over so many times, on so many issues that I've lost count.

And actually, I usually do look up the votes (or comment on them when others do)- but not living in Illinois, I wouldn't know where to start.

[TheUniverse]

42. I live in Illinois

And Starting at the "Moment of Silence" I would immediatly start reciting the 1st amendment everytime the "moment of silence" starts. Thank Thor Im not school anymore.

[in_cog_ni_to]

119. He MUST BE SILENT, but we COULD write the 1st Amendment on a poster he could just hold in front of

him! THAT'S what I'm going to do! I've been wracking my brain trying to think of some way to make the point that this just WRONG. The 1st Amendment would explain it nicely.:) Thanks for the idea!

[FLDCVADem]

120. I'm really trying to understand...

...why you are so upset about your son having to be silent for 60 seconds during the school day. He doesn't have to pray, he doesn't have to do anything, except be quiet for one minute.

I honestly don't see why people are so upset about this. I wish I could understand the angst, but I just don't.

[in_cog_ni_to]

123. Why am I so upset? Because the Illinois Legislature just MANDATED Prayer in our PUBLIC schools.

Not everyone in this state is a Christian. Just in case you didn't know that.


SB1463 Enrolled LRB095 09404 NHT 29600 b



1 AN ACT concerning education.

2 Be it enacted by the People of the State of Illinois,
3 represented in the General Assembly:

4 Section 5. The Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act is
5 amended by changing Section 1 as follows:

6 (105 ILCS 20/1) (from Ch. 122, par. 771)
7 Sec. 1. In each public school classroom the teacher in
8 charge shall may observe a brief period of silence with the
9 participation of all the pupils therein assembled at the
10 opening of every school day. This period shall not be conducted
11 as a religious exercise but shall be an opportunity for silent
12 prayer or for silent reflection on the anticipated activities
13 of the day.
14 (Source: P.A. 76-21.)

15 Section 99. Effective date. This Act takes effect upon
16 becoming law.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&S...

it was vetoed by the governor (here is his statement) but the illinois house & senate overrode his veto

August 28, 2007

To the Honorable Members of the

Illinois Senate

95th General Assembly

Pursuant to Article IV, Section 9(b) of the Illinois Constitution of 1970, I hereby veto Senate Bill 1463, entitled “AN ACT concerning education.”

Prayer plays an important part in the lives of many people. It certainly does in mine. I believe in prayer. I believe in the power of prayer. I also believe that our founding fathers wisely recognized the personal nature of faith and prayer, and that is why the separation of church and state is a centerpiece of our constitution, our democracy and our freedoms.

The law in Illinois today already allows teachers and students the opportunity to take a moment for silent thought or prayer, if they chose to. I believe this is the right balance between the principles echoed in our constitution, and our deeply held desire to practice our faith. As a parent, I am working with my wife to raise our children to respect prayer and to pray because they want to pray – not because they are required to.

For this reason, I hereby veto and return Senate Bill 1463.

Sincerely,
ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH
Governor


http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=09...

Synopsis As Introduced
Amends the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act to require (instead of allow) a teacher to observe a brief period of silence at the opening of every school day with the participation of all pupils assembled. Effective immediately.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocNum=1...

[FLDCVADem]

124. Bull - they didn't mandate prayer

They mandated silence so that those that want to pray can. There is NOTHING in that law that mandates prayer - the only mandate is silence.

***edited to add - there is also no mention of Christianity or any other religion, so your comment about not everyone being Christian isn't even relevent. Kids that want to pray could pray to anyone or anything they choose. Those that don't want to pray can sit *gasp* sit silently and do nothing.

[in_cog_ni_to]

125. BULL. Read the freakin' post. They mandated prayer. n/t

[FLDCVADem]

130. I did read it...

...whereas you read "into" it. There is nothing in that law, absolutely NOTHING that states that a student MUST pray. All that is required of students that don't pray is that they keep their mouths shut for 60 seconds.

When a student is disciplined for refusing to pray, then I'll be concerned. BTW, being disciplined for refusing to be silent while others pray is NOT the same.

[H2O Man]

43. Interesting thread.

You are right about what the "moment of silence" is, of course. And it is some politicians' compromise with those pushing for school prayer.

Any time this type of thing happens, a student and/or parents only real alternative is to make it a case for the federal courts.

[TheUniverse]

44. Precisily.

The "moment of silence" has no valid reason except for religion. I dont see how this "moment of silence" could pass the Lemon test considering it has no non religious reasoning behind it. They are wasting 200 minutes of time that could spent to teach a year, 2600 minutes over the entire 13 school years a child goes through, at the expense of our religous and non religious rights.

[northzax]

61. incorrect

pedagogically, it also serves a function to settle students down from outside the classroom and help them focus on what was coming next. I did this as a teacher (three minutes of silence, actually) following recess, it gives the kids a chance to calm down, shed whatever happened at recess, and reenter the classroom. I didn't care if they prayed, closed their eyes and thought of their playstations, whatever, as long as they were still and silent.

no doubt some of the kids did pray. After all, I got book reports on books of the bible, and invitations to church every weekend. but hey, that's their choice, certainly not something I even so much as suggested.

[TheUniverse]

65. This isn't done after recess

Its done at the beginning of the day, and doesnt serve the purpose of calming kids down after recess. It is a religious ploy, plain and simple. And it includes all grades all the way up to 12th grade, and it isn't like 18 year olds are raging with energy and need to be calmed down like a 6 year old. This clearly is not intended for a secular purpose, but for a religious purpose.

[northzax]

66. i did it at the start of the day, too

a moment of silence is what you make of it. if your child is so insecure that he or she can be pressured into praying to a god he or she doesn't believe in during a moment of silence, then you should start panicking.

[TheUniverse]

74. What purpose did you do it the morning for?

Do you really think "A moment of silence" is the best use of a student's time? How about for a 18 year, which this law would include. What secular purpose is there for an 18 year old student being quite for 1 minute after arriving for school except for a religious reason, or for the school district to show him who is boss? Children go to school to learn, not for moments of silence.

[northzax]

76. teach much?

ever dealt with a class full of kids who have just eaten sugary cereal? who didn't get a lot of sleep last night? good times. the 3 minutes are to saty, that's the outside, this is the inside. leave everything outside the classroom and be ready to learn. trust me, the 6 minutes a day I spent on this more than paid off in making the next 30 more productive.

[tomg]

110. Thanks for the intelligent post.

I also teach ( college) as does my wife(middle school). I am agnostic and very concerned about separation of Church and State. This seems to be a clear case where those who advocate prayer in school settled for something that, frankly, violates no one's right (except someone's "right" to be disruptive)and has a good academic purpose.

I do understand - although I disagree - as to why there is so much vehemence against it; however, I think what is called for is not vehemence against silence but, vigilance that it is not turned into a moment of prayer.

[Neurotica]

59. That's what happened in Virginia

We have a mandated moment of silence in our schools. This began in the 2001 school year.

The origin was the desire of a large number of state lawmakers to get institutional prayer into the public schools. This is evident from the discussions about this legislation that took place in General Assembly sessions.

This law was ruled constitutional in federal court because it was not "religiously coercive." The Supreme Court refused to hear an appeal.

Here is the language from the Code of Virginia:

"In order that the right of every pupil to the free exercise of religion be guaranteed within the schools and that the freedom of each individual pupil to be subject to the least possible pressure from the Commonwealth, either to engage in, or to refrain from, religious observation on school grounds, the school board of each school division shall establish the daily observance of one minute of silence in each classroom of the division.

During such one-minute period of silence, the teacher responsible for each classroom shall take care that all pupils remain seated and silent and make no distracting display to the end that each pupil may, in the exercise of his or her individual choice, meditate, pray, or engage in any other silent activity which does not interfere with, distract, or impede other pupils in the like exercise of individual choice."

This has always bothered and concerned me because students have the right to pray at any time and this is simply, as others have stated, a foot in the door.

A bigger concern is what the teachers do during this time and whether or not the students feel compelled in any way to follow the teacher's example if a teacher is openly praying. Although my children haven't felt any pressure yet, I have heard stories about things that have happened in other classrooms.

As a parent, you always have to monitor how these types of policies are actually being implemented.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

46. Is our children praying?

They sure as hell aren't doing much else besides being Left Behind.

[varkam]

48. I'm pissed about this too, but not because of creeping theocracy.

Rather, I'm pissed at the disengenuousness of the lawmakers who thought that they should focus on this issue above all others and mandate it without giving their real reasons for doing so (as I just don't buy that they simply wanted the kids to have a moment of quiet, non-denominational reflection because they just thought it would be a good idea).

Also, that's 60 seconds out of every day that the students could be learning instead of doing nothing. That's about half of an instructional day per school year lost, thanks to this law.

[hfojvt]

106. see above - post #76

As if every second can be accounted for.

What about the DUers focussing on this issue, long enough to be screaming mad.

[varkam]

108. That's a non-sequitur.

We're not mandated by law to be here on DU, nor are we being supporting by federal dollars. This is our free time, and so if we want to get upset about something that we see then we should by all means to so. Apples and oranges.

I would like to see some science that says a moment of silence leads to a more productive day. If none can be produced, then my original objection still stands.

[City Lights]

50. This makes me really angry.

It also angers lots of people I work with at school, both religious and non-religious. It's a total waste of time. If we've elected this many stoopid people to make our laws, it's time for a major house cleaning! Anyone who voted for this should be handed a pink slip the next time they are up for re-election.

[distantearlywarning]

51. Well, at least it's silence and not Bible verses.

If I had a kid, I'd advise her to think about the scientific method for a minute to cancel out all of the fervent religiosity.

[yasmina27]

52. I don't see a problem with it

I went to high school having a "moment of silence", and continued the tradition as a teacher. I always emphasize to my students that the rule is that they must be silent. What they do during that silence is their own choice - say a prayer, think about that math test they have later, stare at a bug on the wall, catch an extra 30 sec. of sleep, whatever. No one is telling a child what to do.

I also tell the students that they are NOT required to recite the pledge, but they are to respect the time during which other students do. Personally, with the flap over the last few years about the expression "under God", I don't say that phrase.

[DangerDave921]

54. Exactly!

Some measure of reasonableness is required here, folks. What in the heck is wrong with silence? Are we now equating silence with forced prayer?

Pick your battles. Know when to concede. If you object to silence, then you're going off the deep end.

[charlie]

55. You enforced silence

Can't do that with the Illinois law. It specifies that prayer only must be "non-disruptive." So, if little sectarian dramas break out (eg, the kid who whispers "Allahu Akhbar" is made a pariah), you're now the arbiter in a situation you shouldn't be in.

[RainDog]

62. what's wrong with it..

...is that it is motivated by the religious right in this country. if they weren't up in everyone's face about their beliefs all the time, do you think this would even be an issue? that it would be mandated?

I sincerely doubt it.

as noted before, it was done when I was in school and it was a moment for one of my teachers to engage in a little theatre. She stood at her podium, put her fingers over the bridge of her nose, and everyone in the class that I knew detested this time everyday because it was just a cover for those who also get pissed when science teachers want to teach science.

this same teacher told me that "she didn't know about me" because I didn't share her religious faith, but my friend, who did, could surely see how to behave. (see kowtowing, below.)

[redqueen]

77. Same here... n/t

[Norrin Radd]

53. Not fair. How can a kid pour a drinking horn of mead on the desk in honor of Thor silently?

[Norrin Radd]

56. And, a Muslim kid will require at least five moments of silence a day,

plus clean water with which to wash.

Also, how can the Christian kid's diety hear him or her praying if it occurs in his or her head? If his or her diety is omnipotent and can hear thoughts, then that diety could just as well hear into the future the prayer that that kid should be making from home, instead, later that day.

[WinkyDink]

57. The STUPIDITY is that ANYONE, ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, can silently pray!

The Ill. Legislature is merely shortening the actual teaching time by a minute.
Kids will probably be thinking, "What's for lunch today?"

[Snarkturian Clone]

58. A true atheist

would not give a shit about this. Let the people worship their nonsense. It's a moment of silence. Ever hear of meditation? If this was the most unjust mandate in the US I would be happy.

[charlie]

64. True atheist?

I'm not exercised by this, but what if I was? That would make me what? An atheist infidel?

[Snarkturian Clone]

78. you would stop being atheist and start becoming

anti-religious.

[RainDog]

60. this was done in my high school

and some of my friends and I responded by getting on our knees on the floor beside our desks, raising our hands into the air and doing the kowtow thing toward the speaker on the wall.

we didn't say anything, but we were exercising our right to observe the "moment of silence" in a way we felt was appropriate.

The daily stupidity assault by the religious right has, over the years, made me more and more hostile to any form of religion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Teach him a voodoo chant

and encourage him to do that during the moments of silence. :)

[Javaman]

67. Pfft! it's silence not prayer...

I had this back in my elementary school in the 1960's when I was a kid. We had catholics, jews, and believe it or not a couple of buddhists and muslims.

no one cared than and honestly more than likely, no one cares now.

everyone is so hyper sensitive now.

[renie408]

68. I agree. I am am atheist and I wouldn't mind my child starting the day with

a moment of quiet reflection. As long as it can be held to a moment of silence, I don't see a problem with it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

69. How does a moment of silence equal mandating prayer?

:shrug:

[LWolf]

70. As long as they can take it during the flag salute.

That's what I do.

I believe mandating a whole-school moment of silence can easily be challenged. I hope people who object will contact the ACLU.

Voluntary is the key here; anyone can voluntarily take a moment to privately pray, meditate, clear their minds, etc.. It doesn't require the participation of others, and it can't be mandated. That will not hold up to a legal challenge.

[davsand]

72. You all DO realize Dems control both the Illinois House and Senate?

This was DEMS overturning a DEM Governor's veto on this bill. They took a break from fighting about the "mundane" stuff like budget and policy to get this bit of fluff on the books...

I think Mike Madigan (IL Dem Party leader and House Majority Leader) and Emil Jones (Senate Majority leader) both have been there far too long. Yes, Blagojevich (the Governor) sucks, and he's corrupt as hell. I realize they have all been feuding for a long time, but this kind of silliness needs to stop until they get the real issues sorted out.


Mass stupidity, I swear.




Laura

[Stewie]

73. Hyperbole much?

It's not "mandating prayer." No one is forcing people to recite Christian prayers, or any prayers. It's just a moment of silence that allows everyone to reflect on what religious views, pro or con, they have.

The First Amendment just states Congress can't declare any one denomination the "offical" American church whose operations are funded by tax money, like the English did. It isn't a declaration of jihad against public statements of faith, or of lack of faith.

I swear this board is starting to read like a mental health chat room. Just spend your moment of silence reading a pamphlet on evolution. Heck, I'd spend mine reading the Archaeology magazine article on Lucy.

[NeedleCast]

79. Extra 60 seconds of sleep

Nice.

[pingzing58]

95. But this is about children who don't know a thing about Lucy! It's rediculous as an educator to

figure out what a teacher is suppose to say to students about the moment of silence "for prayer." OK children everyone pray to their own idea of God or not. If you don't have a God or know how to pray please just sit there in silence staring at the wall or your desk. But if you make a noise you will be spending an hour in detention once we inform you parents! Idiots!!!!!!

[Pithlet]

75. I'm with you. Mandating this is ridiculous.

No one was stopping anyone from having a moment to themselves. Making everyone do this, whether they wish to or not, is wrong. You'll get a lot of people telling you you're making a big deal out of nothing, but they're flat out wrong. You have to pay attention to the "little things" too when it comes to rights. It's the little chips at our rights that do the most damage.

[Elspeth]

80. It definitely is a fundie foot in the door

But I wonder if parents of non-fundies can urge some creative alternatives for their kids to do during this "moment of silence" to protest quietly. Is there anything in the bill that dictates the child's behavior, other than silence and, presumably, sitting in your seat?

[in_cog_ni_to]

97. I told my son this mornng on the way to school that we are going to think of something VERY creative

that he can do "silently", of course....something extremely silly. file his fingernails? braid his hair? Q-Tip his ears? untie then tie his shoes? I don't know yet, but it's going to be blatant, exaggerated, and will send a message.


I haven't read the bill. I don't know what else is in it....all I know is his teacher told them yesterday there is a new Illinois law that MANDATES :grr: a moment of silence. She said, "Don't ask me why or what it's for because I have no idea, but we must take a moment of silence." They do it right after the Pledge.

[orleans]

112. see my post 111--it has links to this fucking bill and a poll being taken re. it. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

117. Thank you for finding that and I voted in the poll. 51% yes 49% no

:grr:


Do you agree with the new law requiring a moment of silence during the school day? <371 votes total>

Yes (188) 51%
No (183) 49%

[orleans]

129. unreal, isn't it. i hope someone organizes a protest/walk-out/something n/t

[NuttyFluffers]

114. cat's cradle? shuffle cards?

either can be construed as meditative religious practices while at the same time wholly secular. they get under both radars. and both are likely to be registered as "disruptions" to the particularly obtuse and belligerant.

[immoderate]

121. Tic-tac-toe? A game of dots? Hangman? Desktop football? Sign language?

Do schools for the deaf have to sit on their hands?

All of these are silent.

--IMM

[ProfessorGAC]

83. Brought Forth By The Democratic MAJORITY!!!

Talk about pandering!
The Professor

[TalkingDog]

85. Just spread the meme that they are forcing Buddhist Meditation practices on their kids.

The idea behind Buddhist meditation is to silence the mind, silence thoughts, feelings, silence the body.

When mandating a moment of Silence they are saying be passive, accepting, inward oriented. Prayer is active, demanding and outwardly oriented.

I think it's the Buddhist that are doing this to our kids.

That's all I'm sayin....


My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[yellowwood]

88. Infuriating

Of course, this is a sop to the religious right. What else could it be? I'm so sorry that our Illinois Democratic leaders thought that they had to play the game. I've always wondered why people said that children were prevented from praying in school. Who could stop them? By passing this legislation, they are given the impression that somehow they should be praying. How confusing to a child who isn't religious!

How they voted:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/votehistory.asp?GA=95&DocNum=1463&DocTypeID=SB&GAId=9&LegID=29553&SessionID=51

[Quantess]

113. Thanks for the link and ...

Welcome to DU!:hi:

[mopinko]

89. springfield has turned into a giant, f'ing kindergarten

the saddest part of this is that those votes were probably bargaining chips for something that these assholes SHOULD be doing, but aren't.

[yodermon]

91. WOW this is really a huge victory for liberalism.

These wacko Dominionist fundies want to brainwash, evangelize, and proselytize our children, and the best they can get pushed through is non-religious, non-dogmatic "moment of silence"? HA! That's it for them, game over. They do NOT have their foot in the door, because as soon as they attempt to tie this "moment of silence" to any particular religion, dogma, or even prayer in an official capacity, it will be struck down as unconstitutional. The line has been drawn, the bar has been set, and the best they got out of it is a meaningless "moment of silence". :rofl:

That's the thing about these fundy wackos. They think they have their foot in the door. In reality the door has been slammed on their foot, it's losing circulation, and eventually it will rot and fall off.

Good on the Dems who approved this.

[ProfessorGAC]

93. They Didn't Approve It

They promoted it. It was their idea. And Illinois is dominated by dems, so the "fundie whackos" don't need to be ameliorated.
The Professor

[New Earth]

94. I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all

as long as they aren't forced to pray...
It could be a very unifying moment, actually. Just a moment of peace. There is nothing wrong with peaceful thought.

[regularguy]

96. Imagine no Religion.

I think we should all spend a minute a day taking ol' JL's advice.

[Evoman]

98. What about taking that moment for ...gee..I don't know....TEACHING.

Moments of silence are fucking stupid. You know, I know, the fundie down the road knows....moments of silence are for fucking praying. Why the fuck does anybody need a moment of silence. Aren't there already moments of silence when the kids have to read books or study. Forcing this shit is ridiculous.

[Cronus Protagonist]

100. I had lots of "moment of silence" events all the way through my schooling in Scotland

It was only when I arrived here in the states that I found out you were supposed to be praying during the silence. HAHAHAHAAAA!!! I had 12 years of it and they got not a single prayer out of me. And I didn't even know I was being subversive! Now that's irony :P

[Solon]

103. Stupid fucking pandering horseshit, I thought Democrats were better than this, but I was wrong. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

116. I couldn't agree more!

They finally got their foot in the door of the Illinois schools. I am so damn happy we have only 3 more years left in High School and then we're finished with this CRAP.

[Rhythm and Blue]

105. OMG THE SILENCE WILL DESTROY OUR CONSTITUTION

Seriously, this is a non-issue. It's cutting it close, yeah, but there still exists a very clear line between what is acceptable and what is not, and I can't imagine mandating anything remotely resembling prayer will be allowed.

There are so many issues that actually matter in America right now. Whether children waste a minute of school per day in pointless silence isn't one of them.

[orleans]

111. maybe you should use your imagination more often since it seems a bit rusty

SB1463 Enrolled LRB095 09404 NHT 29600 b



1 AN ACT concerning education.

2 Be it enacted by the People of the State of Illinois,
3 represented in the General Assembly:

4 Section 5. The Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act is
5 amended by changing Section 1 as follows:

6 (105 ILCS 20/1) (from Ch. 122, par. 771)
7 Sec. 1. In each public school classroom the teacher in
8 charge shall may observe a brief period of silence with the
9 participation of all the pupils therein assembled at the
10 opening of every school day. This period shall not be conducted
11 as a religious exercise but shall be an opportunity for silent
12 prayer or for silent reflection on the anticipated activities
13 of the day.
14 (Source: P.A. 76-21.)

15 Section 99. Effective date. This Act takes effect upon
16 becoming law.

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=51&GA=95&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=1463&GAID=9&LegID=29553&SpecSess=&Session=

it was vetoed by the governor (here is his statement) but the illinois house & senate overrode his veto

August 28, 2007

To the Honorable Members of the

Illinois Senate

95th General Assembly

Pursuant to Article IV, Section 9(b) of the Illinois Constitution of 1970, I hereby veto Senate Bill 1463, entitled “AN ACT concerning education.”

Prayer plays an important part in the lives of many people. It certainly does in mine. I believe in prayer. I believe in the power of prayer. I also believe that our founding fathers wisely recognized the personal nature of faith and prayer, and that is why the separation of church and state is a centerpiece of our constitution, our democracy and our freedoms.

The law in Illinois today already allows teachers and students the opportunity to take a moment for silent thought or prayer, if they chose to. I believe this is the right balance between the principles echoed in our constitution, and our deeply held desire to practice our faith. As a parent, I am working with my wife to raise our children to respect prayer and to pray because they want to pray – not because they are required to.

For this reason, I hereby veto and return Senate Bill 1463.

Sincerely,
ROD R. BLAGOJEVICH
Governor

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=09500SB1463gms&GA=095&GAId=9&SessionID=51&DocTypeID=SB&DocNum=1463

Synopsis As Introduced
Amends the Silent Reflection and Student Prayer Act to require (instead of allow) a teacher to observe a brief period of silence at the opening of every school day with the participation of all pupils assembled. Effective immediately.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/BillStatus.asp?DocNum=1463&DocTypeId=SB&GAId=9&sessionid=51

now, since you "can't imagine mandating anything remotely resembling prayer will be allowed" how about taking a second and voting in an online poll regarding this "mandate"
http://www.chicagosuburbannews.com/glenellyn/homepage/x1633043278

[Guaranteed]

107. Not sure what purpose this law is supposed to be rationally related to.

In forcing silence, it obviously implicates the 1st Amendment at some level.

But what is its point?

"Reflection?" On what?

And don't kids have the same opportunity to generally "think" about things at any time of the day? Don't they, in fact, do that- think- all day long (most of them, anyway?)

It seems to me that the general idea here- the difference between kids simply thinking and reflecting, as we all do, in their lives, and this law- is that they are now being silent together, all in one room.

What is the purpose of that?

Sounds like church to me.

[MetaTrope]

109. Statistically speaking, which do you expect will be more likely: Prayer or masturbation?

:freak:

[B Calm]

122. A moment of silence to pray to the Astrology Sun God, why?

[Vinca]

126. If you want to see the law repealed real fast, send your kid to school

with a prayer rug and a Koran.

[B Calm]

127. EXACTLY!

[in_cog_ni_to]

128. : )...That was another thought I had.

:thumbsup: