So the usual mantra from our centrist has appeared

[nadinbrzezinski]

This place is far left

After I had a good laugh... and almost spilled my coffee on new shiny computer... it is time to do some basic education

The US has a very narrow band of acceptable political discourse, in fact, it is far narrower today than it has been in its history, with the possible exception of both the Red Scare and McCarthy

But it is very narrow

If you look at the band and used comparative government techniques you would quickly notice that the US is way, and I mean WAAAAYYYY to the right of most Western Democracies. In fact, this can easily be observed by national policy

We are the ONLY nation in an advanced western democracy that does not have national single payer health care, for example, or good protections for labor

There is an American left that lies in the fringes and has no role (mostly) in US Politics, but even that left would be considered mild and center in other countries

Even our founding Fathers were mostly to the left of most of us...

No, health insurance was not an issue for 18th century philosophers and political scientists, but their writings were radical, and why the right of their era fought to silence them... and then to keep the infection contained in the New World (that didn't work too well)

So when you people tell you that you are on the far left...you are actually on a nice center when it comes to what you believe in

Things like oh

National health care

Getting out of Iraq

Labor rights and small d democracy

These things, for some reason, scare the American whig, the American tory... and don't be fooled, we have those tories in both parties... and right now they are trying their best to disenfranchise and make you feel you are on the fringes...

This is actually a standard tactic. And this is why politics is not a contact sport, but actually a form of warfare.

Oh good ol' Clausewitz put it best

War is the continuation of politics by other means.

And what we are righting is nothing less than the future of the country.

And yes they will continue to try to minimize you and even silence you.

[Me.]

1. Distracting The Eye With Non Pertinent Arguments

is the tactic often used. Wonder what playbook that comes from?

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Karl Rove?

he took notes from other masters as well

:-)

[yardwork]

2. I loathe centrists. I'm not very impressed with liberals, either.

Aside from Kucinich and a few others, all the Democrats in Congress are far more conservative than me. I haven't changed very much. The country has moved drastically to the right in my lifetime. Richard Nixon's proposals would be laughed out of Congress now for being "socialist."

It's pathetic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. And Ike was a damn lefty too

we go through these cycles

But when people tell me this place is far left I laught

I know what a left leaning party looks like... and the democratic party is not it

Nor is DU

[smokey nj]

5. Hell compared to what we have today, Ike looks like Abby Hoffman.

:hi: nadinbrzezinski!!

[DemBones DemBones]

35. Very true! I'm imagining Ike in tie dye, which

is pretty weird. Picture him at a Dead concert. :hippie:

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Ike in Tie Die

and a dweeb, now that is an image....

[Virginia Dare]

77. My dad worked under many administrations going back to..

Kennedy. He said that by today's standards most repubs would consider Nixon a liberal.

[yardwork]

87. They'd sure call him a liberal. Anyone to the left of Idi Amin is a liberal to them.

[Virginia Dare]

89. No argument here...I'm sure Genghis Khan is one of Cheney's heroes..n/t

[yardwork]

92. lol! Short list of Dick Cheney's heroes:

1. Idi Amin.
2. Pol Pot.
3. Genghis Khan.
4. Adolph Hitler.
5. Benito Mussolini.
6. Franco - wait, scratch that. Too liberal.
7. Ann Coulter.

[ieoeja]

98. For the record, Genghis Khan had some very liberal policies.

Genghis Khan has the unique privilege of being the only conqueror for whom the histories were written by the losers instead of the winner. The Khan promoted trade, libraries, education, etc.

And he did not really set out to conquer anybody outside of Mongolia. China started the war with Mongolia. The Caliphate in central Asia started the Muslim/Mongol wars. He didn't start those wars. He just ended them. And in both cases he tried diplomatic solutions which the other guy rejected ... by killing the Mongolian diplomats. They didn't exactly leave him with a whole lot of options.

[PATRICK]

102. And many do on the issues

which helps them remove his shame from their record.

[nashville_brook]

26. damn good point.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

6. "Centrist"? Nowadays, would that be in the upper right corner of the poli-scale?

:shrug:

It seems to me shills for the far right corporacrats are always the ones asserting the false meme of "the leftists are taking over this country".

Good grief!!!

Thanks for the reality check, gal! Glad you didn't damage your new 'puter!!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Neo liberals in this country come in two flavors

that is why neo cons are to the far upper right

And DLC types are a little lower

The country overall, on what debate is tolerated is on that quadrant, from about the middle and up

And the meme... in their reality the mob, the plebes, the rabble... small d democrats are taking over the coutry.

We scare them.

[Hardrada]

13. No, we don't scare them. We have no leverage.

That's why they can do what they like and come up with wars and antilabor legislation at their leisure. I think the last time they were afraid of the people may have been in the early 1970's. After Nixon was pardoned and no one did much then the elite saw that the barricades had vanished. Actually when the student movement vanished in 1969 was when they began to take heart. No hope of a future generation to challenge them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. We are starting to get some back

they fear the backlash and mark my words, they will try (and probably succeed) in rigging the elections

Then again bush hinted he may want to stay on

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

14. *lol*

It's just so odd, to me, that we scare them. "BOO! I take a stand for the health and welfare of this nation, that would be 'the people' that make this nation! Now, run away, screaming like your hair is on fire!!"

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Why do you think radio stations are now flipping back to

rubish?

Cui bono?

[IndianaJones]

7. I consider myself a moderate (same as centrist?) and I think this is an interesting post.

I think the "you" you mention is doing the lions share of the minimization themselves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Look at the press

then talk to me

And the meme appeared her for a reason once again

Those who speak truth to power are minimized.

It is a tactic as ancient as politics itself

[IndianaJones]

12. I do think there are several players in the game, however,

I believe the left is its own worst enemy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Let's clarify who in the left you mean

if you mean the US Communist Party, they are marginalized and have been for years

If you mean me, yes I am that left probably, since I am in favor of labor rights and small d democracy and single payer health insurance and bringing the troops home... we are right now at over 70% in favor

This country, at least the people, are progressive, but they have been disenfranchised by the american right.

The, they are their worst enemies is a meme spread by the right...

Civil Rights

Labor Rights

National Single Payer Health Care

These are core values of the Democratic party,

Not corporate rights, or for that matter free trade as defined in neo liberal thought

[IndianaJones]

19. this is where we part ways. At least you can discuss it in a rational manner. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. So we part ways on national health care?

Or unions

or small d democracy?

I understand though

[IndianaJones]

21. no, the difference in reality and what is posted on a message board. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. This is important, what reality are you talking about

for all you know we may share the exact same values

And some folks are voting against their economic interests because of propaganda and perceived realities

[IndianaJones]

30. what actually goes on vs what people claim to support or want.

The tend to be vastly different things.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. You have to ask yourself why is that?

CUI BONO?

Who beneifits

SCHIP is a perfect example

The people support it... but a small minority (including two blue dogs, in the pockets of big tobacco), have managed to put a kibush to it

[IndianaJones]

33. I go even further and question whether the people actually support it. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. There you go

I'd say they do.

It beenfits the MIDDLE CLASS

It is a popular program and it wasn't even controversial

Cui bono?

[IndianaJones]

38. what are the constituencies of those that voted against?

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. The two blue dogs are in Georgia and Tn

the rest are Republicans and their people ALSO benefit from SCHIP

And as rigged as polls are... it was still suported

We know the two blue dogs had quite a bit of money from tobacco money flow into their coffeers, and the same goes for the republcians

Again... ask cui bono? who benefits?

And why?

Ideologically this program, targetted at the middle class, WORKS..

Also if the program was unpopular there would not have been a need to slime a 12 year old, or to tell lies about the program

[IndianaJones]

44. I simply do not think these types of programs, among others,

have the type of support you think they do, despite poll numbers and what people may say, or type.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. But, they do

and it wasn't controvertial until it was made controversial over the last few months

And why don't they have the support?

And you still have to answer... cui bono?

[IndianaJones]

thats an assumption you make which I do not. nt.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

57. *LOL* Oh, no,...YOU assume people lie about what they support. nt

[IndianaJones]

60. I don't need to assume. I live in the real world. nt.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

67. ahhhh,...defined by no one but you since every one else who lives in this world lies,...

,...about what they support.

I won't even ask how you define a rational discourse.

Well, this was fun. Time to move on, now.

[IndianaJones]

69. later...liberal was it? nt.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

46. *wince* So, you don't believe people when they say they support such programs.

Okay.

That makes perfect sense.

You just don't believe people are honest about what they support. Right?

[IndianaJones]

49. among other things. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. So you really are not going to answer the questions posed

I guess you are right, we part company

[IndianaJones]

53. which? who benefits? I believe the question should be who does not benefit. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. The corporations

you don't like the lower middle class that much?

But that is your simple answer

it is far more complex than that... but in essense those who do not benefit with progams like this short terms are the corporations

Though even the insurance companies were in favor of SCHIP... and national health care, or rather the lack off it, is costing us jobs

and is making us less competitive

But you are right, we part company

We live in two very different realities

I live in the reality of the commons, where we have socialized fire and police forces, and I guess you live in the reality of free trade... somalia is a good example of the end stage of that.

[IndianaJones]

66. lol. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Color me surprised

:-)

[IndianaJones]

71. color me not so much surprised. nt.

[John Q. Citizen]

41. Check out Pew Research. They have been doing social science opinion

and issues polling for a very long time.

If you check out Dennis Kucinich's platform (available on his website) you will find that his stances on practically every issue under the sun is right in line with a majority of the American people.

The media will call him far left, but he is only far left if you compare him with most of Congress (although the progressive caucas if the largest caucas in the house)But if you compare Kucinich's stands on the issues, he's right where a majority of Americans are.

What has happened is that the political left has been marginalized by the Corporate Interests, and their proxies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. And that my friend is the grand ol' secret

that nobody wants out... that is in corporate land

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

96. .

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

22. Huh?

:shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. For some perspective on left vs. right, see the late 1940s film "State of the Union"

with Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn.

Tracy plays the Republican candidate for president, but the irony is that he doesn't talk like a contemporary Republican. If you were to skip over the parts where it says he's a Republican and just listen to the speeches he gives, you'd think "Dennis Kucinich" or "Paul Wellstone," certainly not "George Bush" or "Ronald Reagan."

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Yep, that is a good movie

what is amazing is how far right the country has moved

Talkng about SCHIP is controversial?

Talkng about LABOR rights is Controversial?

[hootinholler]

54. Still today, the jester is the only one speaking truth to power. n/t

[Virginia Dare]

78. There are many shades of gray IJ...

you've posted some things that I would consider relatively radical...;-)

[IndianaJones]

79. Radical? nt.

[Virginia Dare]

82. Yep...n/t

[IndianaJones]

83. moderate does seem radical here. nt.

[Virginia Dare]

84. Like I said, multiple shades of gray...

:pals:

[IndianaJones]

85. what part of God's country do you live in? nt

[Virginia Dare]

86. I live in NOVA...

The part that keeps the rest of the state from being "Mississippi'd". I grew up in the D.C. area.

[IndianaJones]

88. thats too bad....just kidding. I was born in VA. nt.

[LWolf]

8. That tactic only works

when people allow it to.

Democrats have allowed the re-defining of right, center, and left in American politics. They've enabled it by moving to the right out of fear of right-wing political victories.

Just my perspective, of course.

If Democrats were as loud and repetitive with the points you make above as Republicans are with the "liberal scare" tactics, perhaps the nation wouldn't have moved so far to the right so fast.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Correct

and I will argue that especially the last seven years, fear has been used to make the memes from the right work

Also, as Lakoff has pointed out repeteadly, our progressive leaders stuck to old tactics while the other side brought out the nukes

You can't bring a knive to a gun fight and expect to win

[AndyTiedye]

31. And You Can't Bring a Megaphone to a TV-Station Fight and Expect to Win

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Ok so the next question is, what works?

If the so-called left has been marginalized, never mind it is right now the majority... what is the so called left to do?

When it fights back it is accused of being too radical, and being the loony left by those with the megaphone

[John Q. Citizen]

55. Canvassing is the only way short of buying up CBS that I can think of to

get into peoples living rooms.

The internet offers an opening also, and I see that it has made a difference, so we need to fight to keep it open and free.


Our biggest hurdle is there is no money in majoritarian politics, but there is big big money in rightwing corporitist politics.

Our only advantage is in numbers of people, but it's increasing harder to organize people.

The last two big waves of organizing people came out of the Great Depression/Dustbowl and the 60's/anti-war anti-draft movement. As depressing as it may seem, as long as people have bread and circus most of the time people don't sweat the small stuff, even though over time the small stuff adds up.

Most Americans don't even stop to consider that they are being oppressed, that their hopes and dreams and asperations are systematically twarted. Let alone what to do about it.

As John Lennon wrote- "And you think you're so clever and classless and free, but your'e all fucking peasants as far as I can see.

Remember the public access tv movement? It evaporated, but now there's U-tube.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. It's been like this forever

and thaks for the answer

It starts in talking to neighboors

[MuseRider]

15. Thanks.

It disgusts me to see what this country has become. Nixon to the left of the current presidential candidates? I would have never believed it but it is true.

[Swamp Rat]

24. k&r

[nashville_brook]

28. as society becomes "privatized," people lose their bearing on what is acceptable

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2086402

check out the responses to this thread.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Oh I get what you said

but as I said on that one... DU has no control on how GOOGLE inserts the damn adds

It is the code

I've considered letting them run adds on my site... but that is one reason I haven't

[nashville_brook]

40. and, because that's a "private venture," nothing can be done -- silly to even mention it.

that's the same kind of reasoning employed when people say there's "no right" to healthcare, b/c healthcare is a "private enterprise."

if there aren't yet controls on the kind of the ads Google serves, then something needs to be done. if enough subscribers complain, then that will change.

and, i think it's not true that the ads can't be filtered once they are "alerted" on. a database is a database is a database. tell the stupid effing database to take us off their list. it's just that easy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. I'd love if we could do a thing about it

but it is in the agreements you sign

that is part of the problem

Quite frankly this is the problem with how corporate law is written

[yodermon]

61. Yes DU *Does* have control.

If you are running Google ads on your website, you can block any particular domain you wish from displaying ads.
If there is a site called "JohnEdwardsAffairRingtones.com", then Skinner et. al. can block that site from running their ads here.
Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.

Link: https://www.google.com/adsense/support/bin/static.py?page=adfilter.html
"Google AdSense provides the functionality to block specific ads from appearing on your pages."

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Ah that's new

I will now consider running addsense

Thanks

[yodermon]

101. You have a PR3 site, I'd highly recommend it.

also check out azoogleads, neverblueads, copeac, and rocketprofit .. then you can choose exactly which ads to run, gooogle be damned.

[Richard Steele]

47. It's amazing how opinions held by 60 to 80 percent of citizens get dismissed as "far left".

Just shows how terribly propagandized we are as a group.

[Canuckistanian]

48. As an observer from another country, I can vouch for that

As far as I can see, acceptable discourse runs the gamut from Center Right to Hard Right.

And anyone who tries to take it leftwards is either attacked as a "socialist" (or worse) or dismissed entirely.

The closest thing you guys have to real center left liberals are Kucinich and Bernie Sanders - and he's an independent.

It's time to stop apologizing for being progressive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. I grew up in Mexico

and my Sociology instructor in my last year of high school was an unabashed hard core marxist

Why I laught when people call me a commie

My friends I have known real commies

;-)

[John Q. Citizen]

59. DF or out in the provences?

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. D.F.

Yep chilanga here

[John Q. Citizen]

76. Piensas que los Gringos son muy frios? Es lo que me dicen mis amigos

en Mexico.

Gary Snyder, "The Politics of Ethnopoetics"
On a Greyhound Bus
My Mexican neighbor across the aisle
had long ago had it with the Catholics.
He can no longer believe in angels, he says,
like he used to do as a child,
& even has trouble with the notion of saints.
He says he's abandoned "el catolicismo",
yet worries about religion all the time.
I suggest that he see his papist upbringing
as the large first stage of
the rocket of his spiritual development ó
something he's having trouble
disconnecting from himself,
an institutional albatross
hanging around his neck.
Later he reveals his take on my countrymen:
"No heart", he says.
"They're all up in their heads."
And I must agree, adding
"Not much soul either . . .
or passion . . ."
They've become something like robots,
I tell him,
or mechanized human sheep:
following the prescription;
practicing political correctness;
abiding with the status quo;
obeying the law of stagnation,
which now eddies
all over our nation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Partly yes, it is the Protestant Ethic, read Weber

but the other thing is that Americans have been isolated from each other over the last thirty years

People don't trust strangers, Period

And that leads to a certain coldness

[yardwork]

90. I've known some commies too.

Think they'll throw us in Gitmo?

People have been tortured to death for less under chimpy. This ain't no disco.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. I know, my youthful indiscretion of readying

Marx in a sociology class

Then there was college... where we also read Lenin

Oh the horror and that was an American Public University.

And there was this Gramsci and prison thingies..

[Canuckistanian]

100. We have the Communist and Marxist-Leninist parties

They always run a candidate in many urban ridings (districts). They never get anywhere and nobody pays them much attention.

But they're not banned or run out of town, either.

[MethuenProgressive]

52. 90% of Americans are moderate/centrist

"right now they are trying their best to disenfranchise and make you feel you are on the fringes..."
It's the 5% on either fringe that make all the noise.

[John Q. Citizen]

65. Do you have any data to back that up? Or is it just that you've been told that so many

times you believe it?

I knocked on peoples doors 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year for three years and chated with them about politics. And thet gave me money because they wanted a universal heath care system. I did this in 7 states, including Idaho, Montana, CA, WA MN MD.OR.

Most people were very liberal on issues. But if you asked them to describe themselves most wouldn't say thy were liberal.

So you have most people with liberal views on the issues, with most not describing themselves as liberal.

My observations are backed up with hard data by the way. Check out Pew Research.

So how do you form your opinion? What's your data?

[MethuenProgressive]

73. Most humans don't need "data" to "form opinions"

Your own data doesn't back up your conclusion saying universal healthcare is a "liberal position" - since most people who support it -according to you- aren't calling themselves liberal.

[John Q. Citizen]

80. So you have no data? That's what I thought.

[MethuenProgressive]

91. You offered no data - just anecdotes. The plural of anecdote isn't data.

Keep right on flailing about though - you're bound to type out the Iliad by pure chance someday the way you're keeping at it.

[John Q. Citizen]

93. I did, I offered you a site with lots and lots of data. Pew Research-check it out!

If you google it, it will come - to your sceen.

[MethuenProgressive]

95. Not in a post to me. All you offered were anecdotes and condescending BS.

How's that working for you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Since you go,

http://pewresearch.org/

Now do a web search on the site

Or do you need me to also give you that too?

Oh and the site, it IS non-partisan

[John Q. Citizen]

99. It's working well. You pulled a statistic out of

thin air, and now you are all in a huff because I didn't buy it.

I directed you to a site with hard data, but hard data apparently isn't what you are after.

You would prefer I believe some made up numbers that you think sound good.

I think our posts pretty well speak for themselves. I'm happy with mine. I hope you are satisfied with yours.

[Riktor]

58. Today, "centrist" is...

... nothing more than a cop-out term used by the disingenuous as a means of making themselves appear "less liberal", much like the terms "libertarian" and "independent" are used by conservatives as a means of making themselves appear less stupid.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

72. ROFLMAO!!!!! Aw, crap!!!!

:rofl: THAT cracked me up!!! :rofl:

[EFerrari]

70. I'm sorry but I don't know what you're talking about.

Who said what? :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. On one of the usually long threads

we were called the loonie left

:-)

So I just decided to point out that DU is not left... hardly left...

[EFerrari]

75. I'm a little dyslexic myself.

lol