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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:15 PM
Original message
What is the relationship between corporatists and theocrats?
This is not flamebait. I want people to state their version of how these two wings of the right wing relate.

Here are some possible relationships:

1. The corporations are totally in charge. The theocrats literally take orders from the corporatists.

2. The corporatists don't care what the theocrats do. The corporatists are in charge, and the theocrats have no control whatsoever over the corporatists.

3. The corporatists find the theocrats "useful idiots" and use them for distraction, for cover, and to generally make trouble for democracy.

4. The corporatists and the theocrats are a "tag team", taking turns destabilizing democracy. Many corporatists are actively believing fundies.

5. The theocrats are taking over the government, at the behest of the corporations, but the theocrats have their own agenda.

6. The theocrats are the corporatists are two self-funding groups competing to control the post-democracy U.S.

----

Which group do you consider to be the bigger threat?

Feel free to post your own ideas.

I just want to get a sense of what DUers think is the relative threat from these two groups of anti-democracy, anti-Constitution scumbags.

arendt
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think it's more like they've made an alliance and agreed on what each would get,
based on what serves them both. They don't like each other, but they figured out a way to share the goods (the goods being us - our bodies, our other resources, and our rights).
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I have said that in the past, so I get it. Which do you think is the bigger threat? n./t
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. I don't know that one is a greater threat - they're both qute bad.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Do you think the theocrats have independence from the corporatists? n/t
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think they've made an ugly alliance and neither is independent of the other -
at least not if they still want to achieve their aims.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I see. Thanks for you comments. n/t
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
2. Most Theocrats are "corporations".
The mega churches, christian TV networks, big evangelical groups all gain financially in a big way with gays and pregnant women and foreign 'heathens' being the targets of the right wing.

I really do think it's more of a tag team type deal.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. So, then the theocrats are playing the corporatist game?...
Does that mean that they have an advantage (i.e., tax-free)?

Again, the question: which is a bigger threat?

arendt
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. IMHO neither.
It's my humble opinion the risks to the death of net neutrality is the biggest threat to America. The corporate media stronghold on information has been incredibly detrimental to this country. Not allcorporations are out to destroy America, not all Christians are out to destroy America.

A media that did it's job would have put a stop to this in the Reagan years and it would never have gotten to this point. IMHO, if net neutrality survives then the American people can be informed regardless of where the elite choose hide. It will take some time to undo the damage but it can, IMHO, be done.

IMHO if net neutrality is lost then so is America.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. But, isn't the push against Net Neut largely coming from the corps?
IIRC, some of the fundies, and groups like the NRA, are pro-netNeut.

I can't remember without Googling which kind of corporations are pro-NN.
Obviously the telecoms (rotten monopolists all) are anti-NN.

If you think NN is "the" issue, then who cares about theocrats?

BTW, you may have a point. Its just that your point is tangential to my question.

arendt
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Those are the elites of the theocrats - but the True Believers are a different
sort of problem.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. I don't agree that TRUE believers are a problem at all.
But then I am one of them.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I don't know if we share the definitin of true believers.
But they are certainly a threat, given their vast outpouring of support for Bush and their other theocrat masters.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Since I'm either a theoretical Buddhist, or an agnostic, please supply me a def of true believer n/t
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. Since we were talking about theocrats, I meant true believers in the context of
theocracy - the ordinary people who support and fund the theocrat elites and their goals.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Money is god to both groups. --nt
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. All of the above.
Edited on Sun Oct-21-07 06:22 PM by baldguy
Its an alliance of convenience, but the corporatist fascists are scared shitless that they'll lose the fundie vote. The more pragmatic corporatists know that they'll still get to play when the right kind of Dem gets elected. Just look at who the corporate media is backing for the Dem nominee.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Interesting that you think corporations are, in any way, "scared".
That implies the theocrats have some power.

arendt
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Of course they do.
The corporatist fascists like Cheney have used the fundies like attack dogs - and now they see that dog turning on them. Thats why the GOP candidates are falling all over themselves trying to out-Reagan one another. But the fundies aren't buying it.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. True. But that just means Cheney will push the "martial law" button sooner...
although, without fundie support (I agree with you that even the stupider fundies are realizing they've been used) martial law is a risky proposition. Those fundies have a lot of guns.

arendt
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Cheney declaring martial law would feed into the fundies Apocolyptic insanities. They'd love it.
But then he'd lose the corporatists and be out on his ass. The alliance only works when the corporatists are on top.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Great point: "the alliance only works when the corporatists are on top". n/t
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. meggido.
armieGet-on.
culling.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Not sure what your point is, re corps vs fundies. n/t
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. the word Armaegedon (sp?)
is translated Hill on Meggido. You can find it on the map.

corps want to spend their missiles, fundies want to spend ther time for the end of time. what a nice partnership.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. That's pretty scary. Corps sell fundies the means to kill the planet, and both are happy. Yuk. n/t
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. culling.
I would think the they have vays to avoid....
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. You have to be Strangelovian-nuts to think you can ride out a nuclear war. n/t
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. me? sure. I'm not gonna survive it.
I don't' have the means and ways. I just think some others may have plans for this other than drop tuck an roll.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. "you" means the cullers. not you, whisp n/t
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
12. You have to understand that there are two types of religious people
those that believe God told em, 'get what you can, fine by me' and those that believe God told em, 'help the needy and love your neighbor'.

Then you got the military religious groups, take your pick, that say, 'My way or I will kill you and make money'. Got to watch this group.

This group is in charge, they decided to put God on all our money.

Or their money, take your pick once again.

I see them as two distinct groups - insanely religious militant groups and moderately religious groups. Moderately in that they no longer believe in outdated religious laws and practice in modern times.

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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. My definition of theocrat is more "my way or I will kill you"...
the takeover of the Southern Baptists 20 years ago showed that the "help the needy" type are dead ducks for the theocrats.

My basic question is: are the theocrats capable of independent action, or are they the creature of the corporations?

arendt
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. They created corporations.
The Church has a large part to do with the power structure. It is not just something new thought up by the Baptists.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. It sounds like you think the theocrats are not totally dependent on the corps...
but that they have learned how to hide behind the corporate charter.

Given Bush's willingness to fund them (to the tune of nearly $1B, if what I read is true), it sounds like the theocrats have a power base that the corporatists don't control. Although the power comes from ripping off taxpayer dollars. Then again, that is where the corporations power base comes from. So, it sounds like they are competitors.

Don't let me put words in your mouth. I'm just trying to get some thoughts from you.

arendt
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Actually yes that sounds like what I'm thinking.
I believe the theocracy share a powerbase that far surpasses the level of most corporations. They are the types who BUY the global conglomerates we hear about today. I think it will be interesting to see how those corporations will handle running private armies and arsenals as large as some moderate countries.

I would be very leery of anyone who mixes God with money and power. Independent thought is not on the agenda.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. I am ignorant of how rich the various theocrat corporate empires are...
are they in the same league as GE or Microsoft? Or just able to gobble up smaller corps?

arendt
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Hey these are some of the best questions I've seen on DU in awhile.
Start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon People like this have assets that control/influence countries and regions. For example, the Vatican is a nation. Organized religion, for thousands of years, builds up a huge flock or dies out. The main religions of the world can either side with peace or war. That is why in my opinion, one is insane and the other group at least want to co-exist.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. :smacks head: How could I forget Moon?
Although I never have been able to figure out if Moon started out as nothing but a KCIA operative and grew into the "messiah" role; or if he was nuts all along.

EIther way he is a nasty piece of work, strongly wired in to the Bush network.

So, is he a theocrat or is he a corporatist or is he both?

Go figure.

This is most enlightening to think about.

Thanks

arendt
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Alles in einem.






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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. The theocrats are capable of independent action
When looking at the Abramoff-Reed relationship. It seems that somehow, the strange relationship of theocrats and corps was forged by Ralph Reed and others.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. I never had Reed down as a believer, just a cynical manipulator...
of course, nothing is clear-cut. Most of the big name theocrats are lying opportunists from the get go.

I thought Ralph had lost his clout amonst the fundies after the Indian gambling revelations.

But, your point is taken. The theocrats do have their own initiatives.

arendt.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
24. it's actually a theory of governing put out by that wacko from the university of chicago --
leo strauss.

one of of the founding thinkers of today's conservative movement.

corporations need a population of ''faithful'' citizens -- to get the most cooperation and productivity from them.

there is an uneasy alliance between these two systems -- the mediator in this case is the republick party.

corporations hold most of the cards -- the concentration of wealth.

and they are basically neutral on the ideas of the religious conservatives.

religious conservatives produce scads of ''obedient' workers



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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. OK. A vote for Straussian lies and manipulation. Fair enough. n/t
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
29. Theocrats are a predictable conservative consumer base and corporatists need a herd. -n/t
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
30. The corporatists use the theocrats to get support
Edited on Sun Oct-21-07 06:47 PM by rocknation
squelch dissent, and use religion to justify their blatanly less-than-religious behavior.

:headbang:
rocknation
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. Uneasy alliance. #3's the closest, but the theocrats are aware of the imbalance.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. There's a huge problem with this kind of speculation
It's just way too vague. Here's just one point: If the Coroporate class is so in league with the "theocrats", how come so many of the large corporations have personnel policies that are anathema to most right wing religious types. Without specific relationships between specific entities, this is just pointless.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Absolutely correct.
Edited on Sun Oct-21-07 07:01 PM by Rhythm and Blue
The uneasy and often paradoxical political relationship between the religious right and Wall Street is the subject of many in-depth scholarly articles and books. Boiling it down to "THEY'RE TAKING TURNS FUCKING AMERICA" is a game for those who can't read at above an eighth-grade level.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
34. They Want to Adopt the Saudi Arabia Model of Theocracy
Everyone knows that the elites don't want to actually live under a theocracy.
They wouldn't, of course. They would live above it, like the sheikhs of Saudi Arabia.
Laws, including religious laws, are for little people, to keep us all in line.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. If the corporations have extra-territoriality, the theocrats can't touch them...
I'm sure the theocrats know that.

Question is, do the theocrats resent that independence? Do the theocrats aspire to dominate the individual members of the corporate elite? Or are they content to merely dominate the little people? If the latter, then the alliance is stable. If the former, their could be some friction.

arendt
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #36
57. money trumps morals
I vote for item #3.

The divergence between the corporations and the theocrats is the difference between the fiscal "conservatives" and the social "conservatives". The corps. are essentially amoral/immoral; their main interest is money, period. Anything that gets in the way of profit gets run over. Theirs is an alliance of convenience with the theos. The corps. just need the votes from the theos. to maintain the appearance of "fair" elections.

The theocrats think they can use the alliance with the corporations to get their social agenda installed (and have had limited success). But the corporations will only allow changes that do not affect their profits. If the theocrats overstep their role, the corporations will find a way to reign them in, or make the theos. irrelevant.

...I am having difficulty writing what I am thinking, sorry for the rambling...
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. Au contraire...you have summed it up most concisely, not rambling at all n/t
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
50. I'd say 3
And they gave them as much rope as they thought they could. I think we'll start seeing the fault lines now.

Not that both groups aren't in and of themselves dangerous, though...
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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
52. Point by point...
First thanks again Arendt for providing a chance at decent discussion.
Now I will attempt to respond pont by point as well as I can.

>I want people to state their version of how these two wings of the right wing relate.
>Here are some possible relationships:
---------------------


>1. The corporations are totally in charge. The theocrats literally take orders from the corporatists.
--------------------
No, this is demonstrably wrong: If it were true the theocrats would all be going in pretty much the same direction. The various religious groups represented in the US are very much at odds on many issues: some of which are 'blood feud' fudamentals. So it is illogical to posit that religions are controlled by a singular entity. They cannot agree upon an imaginary super friend, how are they to agree on a mortal one?

>2. The corporatists don't care what the theocrats do. The corporatists are in charge, and the theocrats have no control whatsoever over the corporatists.
------------------------------
Yje first clause is very plausible. The why is that the corporatist does not care who or what (non- economic related) ism is running things. They do want stabilitity for the most part, for stability allows the fine-tuning of profits. It must always be kept in mind that the corporitist cares only that the political climate be favorable for his creating wealth, that is why corporatists do quite nicely under a quite wide ranging spectrum of government models: From socialist to there ideal the fascist.

The second posit is more problematical, for me at least. I think that the closest that such a thing may have existed was in late medieval early renaissance Italy. The Church wielded large powers, as did the feudal princes and both relied heavily on the other, but underlying their power and wealth was a sort of stone-age middle-class group which consisted of artisans, and more importantly the traders and merchants. The collapse of the princes, as well as the beginnings of the end of Papal earthly rule(lands, cities, armies) coincided with the rise of wealth in other regions created once again, or made possible by the traders and merchants.

I just do not see that a singular power structure by one or the other is possible if the other exists. It seems they must hang together or be hung together. Or be hoist on their joint petard.

>3. The corporatists find the theocrats "useful idiots" and use them for distraction, for cover, and to generally make trouble for democracy.
--------------------------
The 'useful idiots' metaphor is probably accurate, as I said before the corporatist is interested in two things only acquiring wealth and crating and maintaining an environment favorable for him to do so and continue to dos. It makes not a whit of difference whether he buys a judge, or a priest, or a Democrat. The Mafia is the fundamental business model in this instance. However the second clause is totally at odds with reason: for instability is not a thing the corporist wants, it is the last. Instability provides opportunity for newcomers to acquire a foothold, and no corporist wants to further dilute the stocks. So to reiterate instability is sought by others, not the corportists.

>4. The corporatists and the theocrats are a "tag team", taking turns destabilizing democracy. Many corporatists are actively believing fundies.
--------------------
Again, because of reasons stated supra this entire posit is not logical, nor probably even possible.

>5. The theocrats are taking over the government, at the behest of the corporations, but the theocrats have their own agenda.
--------------------------------
Restate the conditions: The theocrats are attenting to take over the goverment, for their own reasons, but no corporatist would request, order or wish for such a thing. It destabilizes, and worse the religious zealot is the least trustworthy corrupt government official: when bought they rarely stay bought, and eventually all theocracies in history have become avaricious to the detriment of kings, corporatists, and petty crooks in general. No, the corporatist would not ask or work for such a thing.

>6. The theocrats are the corporatists are two self-funding groups competing to control the post-democracy U.S.
---------------------------------------
Probably this is true to a greater or lesser extent if you allow that the only 'singular' group is the corportist. The post-democracy is hyperbole, but just barely.



>Which group do you consider to be the bigger threat?
>arendt
---------------------------------------------------------

Without any doubt, and with the full recorded history of mankind as support, I say the theocrats are the greatest danger. A corporatist can quickly convert to saving the environment and reuires only your money to do so. The theocrat is just as apt to declare it some metaphysical entities desire that the planet should be destroyed. Remember corporatists only make and sell Kool-Aid...priests serve it!
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. "corporatists only make and sell Kool-Aid...priests serve it" - best line of a great response...
thanks for your great exposition.

One question. Given how destabilizing to world politics, and oil supplies, and the world economy, the Bush admin has been; it seems that the corporatists are backing Hillary to bring stability back, without having to give up any of the privileges they have gotten from Bush.

So, what then are we to make of Hillary's association with the fundie prayer circle in Congress, her pandering to religion and faith, etc. Is is just camoflauge, or is the former Goldwater Girl another stealth true believer?

arendt
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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. ...sadly the last chance maybe
Arendt>thanks for your great exposition.

>One question. Given how destabilizing to world politics, and oil supplies, and the world economy, the Bush admin has been; it seems that the corporatists are backing Hillary to bring stability back, without having to give up any of the privileges they have gotten from Bush.
------------------------------------
Our destabilization efforts have arisen from a small cabal of very patient ideologues cum napoleonic complex poster children (neo-Cons), They have been working on this 'plan' since the 60's. In fact you can easily obtain copies of their manifest Rumsfeld, Cheney, Feith etc written by them during the Nixon administration when they were just beginning their careers. Rumsfeld and Cheney see-sawed back and forth as each others bosses, each carrying the other along as well as their less 'talented' believers. My point is they used any opportinity during those decades to further themselves and their insane ideas.

The oil corporatists Dutch Shell, Texaco, Chevron etc did not want to destabilize the region and would pay a pretty penny to anyone who could remove those who are doing it. Halliburton, although arisen from the oil-patch is NOT an oil as main product company, it's before Cheney as CEO main product was drilling, exploration, support. Cheney was made CEO to change that to a prime military contractor, he did that, and once that was accomplished it remained only for him or Rumsfeld to once again enter the government side in order to funnel those contracts. Rove chose Cheney, or someone did it doesn't matter. 911 was something even those insane megalomaniacs could only fantasize would happen. But they they were not slow in making full use of the opportunities. I have digressed to far from the point I fear, except to illustrate how far removed from the corporatist label the Cheney-Rumsfeld(and hidden huge money) really is.

As for the corporatists themselves, the Grummans, Boing, General Dynamics, it has taken them nearly three years to get a firm grip on any substantial shares of the US Treasury: which if looked at closely supports the contention that these two groups are very much separate.


Now would another Clinton administration support and protect the corporatists? Absolutely and unequivacably. Would that be bad for America? Not necessarily. It will require huge amounts of cash and backroom support from all sources in order to remove the Neo-Cons who have 'moled' up in government and corporate boardrooms. The Neo-CONS hegemonic scheme to control the world by force is the greatest threat America, and indeed the world faces...Al Gore not withstanding, they are a greater immediate threat than global warming. The Clintons, Joe Biden and Christopher Dodd are the only Democratic candidates that have the knowledge of, and the contacts for attempting to stop the process now in place. All are corporatist leaning, but that is the devil you must deal with in order to deal with the devil who has lost its mind.

Lastly the rights we Americans have lost in the past years are gone forever, outside of alcohol Americans have never lost one and gotten it back. I don't like it any better than anyone else, but Americans simply don't seem capable of understanding what they give up in the name of more security or whatever other pap they want.



>So, what then are we to make of Hillary's association with the fundie prayer circle in Congress, her pandering to religion and faith, etc. Is is just camoflauge, or is the former Goldwater Girl another stealth true believer?


Now that is one I am 99.99% confident in saying is not a thing that is possible... a Hillary Semper-McPherson is not possible. She is a pure 100% political animal, whether she is also so egomaniacal as to believe she can control zealots I am not sure. She is a Kennedy Democrat, and that is an animal completely incomprehensible to todays Democratic Party loyalist. She is a product of the 50's in her external views and opinions of Americas role, and a product of the 60's in her social views. But even the latter is tempered by conservative views. People have forgotten that the 'Liberal' Democratic Party of that era was anything but liberal by todays standards. No, Hillary is not a 'progressive', she is a 1958 cross between Adlai Stevenson and Dwight Eisenhower. While Bill is a duke's mixture of Ben Franklin, Machiavelli and P.T. Barnam.

Sad to say that the pair of them may be the last chance we have to stave off the theocracy. It must wait for us to then begin dismantling the 'Unfair Trade' corporatists, or at least throttling them back severely with updated versions of the Sherman Act.

...................................


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Didereaux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. a pic is worth how many words?...
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
53. Theonomic Reconstructionists want to build heave here on earth then Jesus will return
Chalcedon Vision Statement
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chalcedon labors to articulate in the clearest possible terms a distinctly Christian and explicitly Biblical solution to the prevalent evils of the modern world. Our objective is nothing short of setting forth the vision and program for rebuilding the theological fortifications of Christian civilization. These fortifications have been eroded by the forces of humanism and secularism over the past three centuries. We are not committed, though, merely to reproducing a glorious Christian past. We work to press the claims of historic Christianity as the Biblical pattern of life everywhere. We work for godly cultural change across the entire spectrum of life. We strive to accomplish this objective by two principal methods.

First, Chalcedon is committed to recovering the intellectual foundations of Christian civilization. We do this in two main ways, negatively, we expose the bankruptcy of all non-Christian (and alleged but compromising Christian) systems of thought and practices. Positively, we propose an explicitly Biblical system of thought and action as the exclusive basis for civilization. Only by restoring the Christian Faith and Biblical law as the standard of all of life can Christians hope to re-establish Christian civilizations.

“We believe that the source of godly change is regeneration
by the Holy Spirit, not revolution by the violence of man.”
Second, Chalcedon is dedicated to providing the tools for rebuilding this Christian civilization. We work to assist individuals, families, and institutions by offering explicitly Biblical alternatives to anti-Christian ideas and practices. In the way we guide Christians in the task of governing their own spheres of life in terms of the entire Bible: in family, church, school, vocation, arts, economics, business, media, the state, and all other areas of modern life.

We believe that the source of godly change is regeneration by the Holy Spirit, not revolution by the violence of man. As God regenerates more and more individuals, and as they reorient their lives and areas of personal influence to the teachings of the Bible, He employs them to advance His kingdom and establish Christian civilization. We believe that God's law is the divine pattern of sanctification in every area of life, but it is not the means of justification; man is saved by grace, not by law. The role of every earthly government?including family government, church government, school government, vocational government, and civil government?is to submit to Biblical law. No government in any form can make men Christians or truly obedient; this is the work of God' sovereign grace. Much less should civil government try to impose Biblical law on an unbelieving society. Biblical law cannot be imposed; it must be embraced.

A guiding principle of Chalcedon, in fact, is its devotion to maximum individual freedom under God's law. Chalcedon derives its name from the great ecclesiastical council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451), which produced the crucial Christological definition of Jesus Christ as God of very God and Man of very man, a formula directly challenging every false claim of divinity by any human institution: state, church, cult, schools, or human assembly. Christ alone is both God and man, the unique link between heaven and earth. All human power is therefore derivative; only Christ may announce that "All power is given unto me in heaven and earth" (Matthew 28:18). Historically, therefore, the Chalcedonian creed is the foundation of Western liberty, setting limits on all authoritarian human institutions by acknowledging the validity of the claims of the One who is the source of all human freedom (Galatians 5:1). Consequently, we oppose top-heavy, authoritarian systems of government which are, by definition, non-Christian. We advocate instead a series of independent but cooperative institutions and a highly decentralized social order.

Chalcedon is an educational institution. It supports the efforts of Christians and Christian organizations to implement the vision of Christian civilization. Though unapologetically Reformed, Chalcedon supports the kingdom work of all orthodox denominations and churches. Chalcedon is an independent Christian foundation governed by a board of trustees, Christian men in accord with Chalcedon's vision statement. The foundation is not subordinate to the authority of any particular denomination or ecclesiastical body.




http://www.chalcedon.edu/vision.php



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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
54. The little History helps to understand this combination
From the CiviL War onward, Corporatist ran the Republican Party. The major Cities (With the Exception OF New York City) were Solidly Republican (New York City Tammy Hall do to its connections with the people in the Streets was able to fight Corporations to a draw till the time when most Inner Cities went Democratic but that was NOT till the 1930s). Till the 1920 Census, the Majority of people lived in RURAL AMERICAN, not Urban American and "voted the way their shot" i.e. Northern Rural Areas went GOP, Southern Rural Areas went Democratic. This was the situation form 1865 till 1896. This worked out well for Corporate American, Tariffs were high to keep imports OUT, immigration was loose to keep labor cost down and the GOP wanted the Dollar on the Gold Standard, even if this meant any money collected by the Tariff went to pay off the CiviL War Debt quickly (it was paid off by 1874), so quickly that the 1870s was a series of Recessions that forced wages even lower.

In the 1880s the desire to do something about the decline in the Standard of Living began. Since most people lived in Rural areas, this movement started in Rural America, both North And South. The solution desired was "Free Silver" i.e. Free coinage of Silver Coins. The problem for Corporate American was this meant they would have to take a Silver Dollar (Silver value about 50 Cents) when they had previously had to take in payment only Gold Dollars which since the 1870s had about a Dollar's worth of Gold in each Gold Dollar. Corporate America did NOT want this inflation for it would REVERSE what had been the rule in American since 1865, Paper Dollars INCREASED in value till they were worth $1 dollar in Gold. This DEFLATION, drove wages down, the price of Crops down, but Corporate profits UP. THus the Farmers of American wanted Inflation so that Wages, crops etc would go up in value, while they debts would go down. Silver was a good choice for unlike Paper, Silver had value, and thus could NOT lead to hyper-inflation, just a slow steady inflation that most economists today say is the best way for an economy to be (I will NOT go into why, but it ha to do with how people deal with selling something that has lost value).

Anyway, this demand for Silver was strong in the 1880s and became Stronger during the 1890s. The GOP refused to even think about "Free Silver" but the Democrats dropped pro-Gold Cleveland in 1896 for Pro-Silver William Jenning Bryan in 1896. He ran on a pro-Silver Ticket, was outspent 10-1 and at least one person stated he only lost because the GOP cheated. Bryan was pro-Silver, Pro-Labor, anti-Corporation, pro-regulation (Yes a "Progressive" in the true meaning of the world). Bryan took the Democratic party from being a "me-to" party it had been since the Civil War, to the progressive party it was int he middle of the 20th Century (and had to fight this fight over and over again, as people like the DLC kept trying to take the party back). In 1900 he ran again, but inflation had returned do to the opening of Gold Fields in South Africa and Australia so Free Silver was NOT the big issue in 1900 in had been in 1896, but imperialism was. Imperialism became the big issue in the election of 1900, Byran opposing the US taking the Philippines while McKinley (and McKinley's Vice President Theodore Roosevelt) wanted it part of the US, no matter how many natives we had to kill. In 1904 Theodore Roosevelt ran against a Democratic DLC equivalent and the Democrats lost (Bryan is noted for his absence in the campaign) but Bryan returned again in 1908, this time pushing his Corporation Regulations more than anything else (After 1908 Bryan said he would NOT run again, and came out for Woman's right to Vote, something he had avoided do to his need for Southern Votes, but when he did not plan to run again he came out for the Vote for Women, this is from a man whose WIFE was an Attorney as was at least one of his Daughters).

Anyway, I went into Bryan's Campaigns for he pushed the Democratic Party to the left. THe GOP responded by going left themselves for they saw HOW while he was doing and attempted to head off the left ward movement. This was Theodore Roosevelt's famous comment to a fellow GOPer regarding one of the Reforms TR was supporting that if he did NOT support TR's program, then more radical people (like Bryan) would get elected and you will like his program even less.

Now Bryan was the greatest speaker of his time, people would travel to hear him speak. He "authored" a book (i.e. collected together and had it published) a collection of some of the greatest speeches ever made, he included both Grant's famous "Why I am a Republican" and "On Woman’s Right to the Suffrage" by Susan Brownell Anthony.

Some of the Speeches Bryan thought were "Great":
http://www.bartleby.com/268/

Bryan like great Speeches, but he also like what we would call progressive ideas. This live of progressive ideas came out of his fundamentalist roots, he believed in the bible. In many ways his attendance in the Scoops Monkey Trial was more an attempt to bring the issue of the use of the theory of Evolution to downplay traditional Christian ideas of Charity and care for your fellow human beings, than any attack on Science.

A list of Difference between the Movie "Inherit the wind" and the Scoops Monkey trail:
http://www.themonkeytrial.com/

A more detail website on the Trial:
http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/tennesse.html

Anyway, Bryan is noted for staying out of the 1920 Election, forcing the 1924 Democratic Convention to go over 100 ballots before picking a Candidate (Which Bryan wanted to be progressive,s ot he party put his brother on as VP). Bryan was dead by 1928, so the DLC equivalents was able to get a Tammy Hall politician nominated (Al Smith) who then suffered the worse defeat any Democratic Candidate has ever suffered. In 1932 FDR won, but became more and more progressive as the 1930s went on (but like Bryan ignored the problem with the Blacks do to the need for Southern Votes). Bryan's fundamentalist followers stayed loyal to the Democratic Party during this time period, as did the Rural Grange. This was continued into the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s.

One of the reason FDR went Left in the 1930s was the conversion of most inner cities from GOP strongholds to Heavy Democratic inner Cities. These new City Bosses wanted aid for their people, including Welfare and work programs. The rural South and North also had these same needs. Thus what we call progressive/Liberal society was forged in the 1930s. The GOP took notice and tried to stay relevant, but found that the Rural north was NOT enough to keep them in power. A Change was needed and they found it in the Democratic decision to embrace racial integration. Racial Integration technically was part of the Democratic Platform in the 1930s, but except for some WWII construction jobs in the South (Which seems to come from Elanor Roosevelt more than her Husband) it was all talk and little actual work. This changed under Truman, who tried to integrate the Services AND had a anti-Lynch law passed (This gave Truman over 2/3 of the Black votes in 1948, enough to get him re-elected, prior to the 1930s Blacks had voted overwhelmingly for GOP candidates, when they could vote, many of these blacks would vote for Ike in 1952 but afterward would become solid Democratic Voters).

Thus if you look at the Democratic Party in the 1950s, you had a problem. The Democratic Party was very strong in the Suburbs, but weak in the Suburbs. Strong in the South, but the Southern Support was Anti-black, while inner city Democrats were pro-black (i.e. blacks could vote, but stay in certain neighborhoods). Most liberals had joined the Democratic Party bringing with them a more liberal attitude to race relations, an attitude many in the South opposed. Nixon saw this as a GOP opportunity, and he convinced his corporate supporters to "reach out" for these Southern White Voters. Many were fundamentalists (as had been Bryan) so the Corporatist decided to fund these Fundamentalists and arrange for them to be able to get broadcast TV Stations as a "non-Profit". The only restrictions was these Fundamentalist could NOT endorse any Candidate (This was good in the 1960s for many would have had to support Democrats).

Nixon "Southern Stagerty";
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

The reason for this "reach out" was that the GOP needed to take Voters from the Democratic Party. These Southern Whites look easy to get. These Fundamentalist preachers obtained Radio Stations, TV Stations and started to preach they fundamentalist ideas. The preachers stayed with traditional Christian Ideas until they had they followers hooked and them slowly changed the message to one of pro-Corporatist. Traditional anti-black attitude of Southern Fundamentalist help as these preachers pointed out the "problems" the blacks were causing (i.e. the race riots of the 1960s). This message was sent cross country but the emphasis was on the South (Virginia to Texas). The South had NEVER supported Government as much as the north so low taxes and services was (and is) the norm down south. The fundamentalist thrived in this insecure environment(Which reaches into the Mid-west in the areas along the Ohio River).

The policy of Corporatism as to the American South is to feed the Fundamentalist ideas that do NOT conflict with what Corporate American wants done, and to minimize any ideas that interfere with corporations. The problem is these Fundamentalist want SOME, IF NOT ALL, OF THEY CHRISTIAN IDEAS ADOPTED. These include anti-abortions laws, but corporations care less about such laws and tell their GOP congressmen and women to do what the Corporatist want. This is the cause to the present split between the Fundamentalists and Corporatist. Not surprisingly the reason for the split seems to be Iraq. While both wanted to invade Iraq, the Fundamentalist do NOT want they sons (and daughters0 dieing in a war of occupation (and definalty nOT for oil). Bryan's position on War still rings down to the Fundamentalist, it is to be done is needed, but if war is NOT needed it MUST be avoided (Bryan resigned as Secretary of State over Wilson's refusal to rein in the New York Banks loans to France and England, Bryan saw it was sooner or later forcing the US into WWI so he resigned to protest the refusal). Thus the split in the GOP. Fundamentalist have an inherit problem, Christianity REQUIRES you to be concern about your fellow humans, that is clear in the bible. Once you show the GOP can do NOTHING about abortion, then care for fellow Humans kick in. On that the Democrats are viewed as better by the fundamentalists. Thus between the Anti-War and Help your Fellow Human ideas (emphasis by Bryan when he was on the Stump and repeated to his day by many Fundamentalists) the Fundamentalist will vote Democratic IF THAT IS THE ONLY ISSUES and right now that is the only issue that fundamentalist can see can be solved by Politics (Abortion appear NOT be solving by Politics and thus out of the picture).

Now the fundamentalist are big in the American South, and as such an important part of the GOP. They are weak in the West (i.e. the part of the US EAST of California but West of Mississippi River). These areas the message the GOP uses is less Religious then libertarian. This message thrives for most of this area is still owned by the US Government for most of it is to dry for Agriculture (a lot of Cattle graze this area, but mostly on US owned land). These Westerns want to be able to go to these Federal lands and do as they please, even through they do NOT own the land, and at the same time expect the Federal Government to bail them out of any problems. Corporatist like this attitude for it means little ORGANIZED residence to their agenda and such people are easy to convince the problem is NOT the Corporations but the Federal Government. Now this is the SMALLEST are of the US in population, but the huge number of Electoral votes is why Bush won in 2000 and why Corporatist try to keep this area happy with their Corporate message.

The third areas of GOP strength is Suburbia. These are much more liberal than the South for example they want the option to get an abortion if they want one. They support equal rights for Blacks, but demand lower taxes. Corporate American tends to live is Suburbia. They want good roads and Cheap fuel. They want to see the value of theirs homes increase each year. Do to the actions of the GOP to win southern Fundamentalists, this groups has tuned against the GOP. For years the GOP thought they could keep Suburbia, the West and the South. This was the GOP plan since Nixon's Administration. For 12 years they did so, till Iraq show even Suburbia the problems with the GOP program. Now Suburbias has been and will be the most loyal GOP areas (Older Suburbs are becoming more city like and as such more Democratic, by Suburbs I means those areas Built since the 1950s i.e. since 1960).

This is the problem facing the GOP, Corporate America wants to control oil, but NOT to send their sons to fight for it (i.e. Suburbia does NOT want to fight these wars). The south does NOT want to, neither does the West. These three bases for the GOP reject this war (Through Suburbia only reject it if they have to fight it). This is the split within the GOP, the people who have done the Fighting for Corporate ideas (i.e. the Southern White Male) sees no reason to fight this war. Like the Democrats in the 1960s it is time for a switch in party loyalties, the question who will defect first? Will it be the Rural North? These guys have been ignored for years by the GOP, taken for granted. They want improvements in their rural areas but such improvements are NOT being down (or if they are done are done by Democrats).

The South Appears to be Solidly GOP, but the Fundamentalist are disorganized, the war and the lack of care for their fellow humans violates they basic Christian ideas, they will NOT join the Democrats over Abortion, but will also NOT support Corporate America in this war. The west is even worse on this level. The last group, Suburbia are used to GIVING ORDERS not having ot do them (i.e. fight this war).

What I foresee is the Rural North defecting slowly to the Democratic Party while the Fundamentalist South just sits the next few elections out. The West and Suburbia will support the GOP, but together they are NOT enough to win.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Thanks for your hard work. Huge amount of context. That's a lot of typing...
Your analysis of recent GOP strategy by region is worth turning into bullet points (i.e., simplifying into talking points) to show exactly how corporatists manipulate everyone - fundies, libertarians, soccer moms - always with the intention of getting the corporations more power.

Pretty convincing that the corps are in charge, and the fundies are finally realizing they've been had again.

arendt
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. I should NOT do things like that late at night when I should be in bed
It needs to be entirely re-written, but my intention was to point out that the GOP/Corporate are in the same situation as the Democrats were in the 1960s, their coalition is breaking up. Corporate America is trying to buy the Democrats to prevent the left from taking over. Thus you see Hillary getting all the money (She is a GOP-light).

On the other hand Fundamentalism in the US has anti-corporation as its roots. You get away from the highly finance preachers you still se this message. Given that the GOP did NOT deliver ANYTHING regarding abortion AND this debacle of a war the fundamentalist membership sees no between he Democrats and the Republicans. In the South that means greater support for Southern Democrats, in the North the defection of Rural voters to the Democrats.

The Country needs to go left, Corporate America knows if it does, Corporate America will be in its sights. Thus the attempt to head off this movement by "buying" the Democratic Party.

I compare today with 1896. A basically pro-corporate Democratic President had just served his second four year term. The party rejected his position and embraced a radical left wing agenda (Which at that time was based on Fundamentalist beliefs). The GOP cheated to stay in power and did so till 1912 when the GOP Split (More over a dispute as How to defeat the Democrats then anything else, the Democrats had been increasing their percentage of the Vote since 1896 and where set to win 1912 even if the GOP did NOT split, so the Split had less to do with getting the Democrats elected that year then how the GOP was divide on how to defeat the Democrats).

From the 1880s the Country had wanted to go left, the GOP prevented this for Decades. It was not till the 1930s that the Country went to the left. This movement lasted till the 1960s when the country wanted to stop and reset itself. Corporate America then took that opportunity to get the country to go right ward (Sitting "Traditional Values, after making sure protections of Wealth was one of those values taught to every American Child in School from the 1870s onward). This started a right ward movement that continued till the 1990s. Starting about the 1990s the country again started to want to go left, and that left ward movement is in full swing, but Corpora tate America wants it stopped, by whatever means possible.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-21-07 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
58. that's like choosing between gunshot or knife wound
they're both totally out of control and totally antithetical to the long-term survival of democracy, if not our species. Corporatists will destroy the planet if unchecked. Theocrats will merely destroy reason.

Corporatists own and uneasily control fundamentalists. But fundies will die for their "beliefs."
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
62. Don't leave out the statists
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
64. I vote for #3
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