Chavez Criticized Catholic Leaders in Venezuela

[Dorian Gray]

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2206910,00.html


Caracas - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez slammed the nation's Roman Catholic Church leadership as "morally unacceptable" late on Sunday for criticizing his proposal to rewrite the constitution to scrap term limits.

Chavez's reform plan, which voters are expected to approve in a December referendum, also includes allowing security forces to detain citizens without charge during political "emergencies" or major natural disasters.

Church leaders on Friday issued a strongly-worded statement accusing Chavez of seeking to concentrate power with an "authoritarian" proposal to overhaul the OPEC nation's constitution that he helped rewrite in 1999.

Bishops 'make us ashamed'

"They say the reform is morally unacceptable - they are morally unacceptable," Chavez said in a government press release sent out on Sunday night. "Those bishops that we have make us ashamed."

Polls show Chavez will likely win the referendum because the proposal also includes popular moves such as shortening the workday and extending social security benefits to street vendors as part of a drive to build a socialist state.

The Church is one of the few respected, independent institutions in Venezuela and has repeatedly criticized his leftist policies and called on him to tone down his often aggressive rhetoric since he took power in 1999.

In response, Chavez, who remains popular due to his spending of oil income on the poor, portrays them as elitists who backed a failed coup against him in 2002.




I know that this is a divisive issue, and the Catholic Church is also debated much around here. I found this story interesting, and I tend to be wary of Chavez's constitutional ammendments. I guess I was interested in getting people's points of view about this, as I didn't see the topic here at all.

[Droopy]

1. Yep, it sounds like Chavez as an authoritarian streak in him

Bush has also expressed a similar desire regarding term limits. And that whole detaining citizens without charge is right out of the Bush/Cheney play book. I'm of the opinion that if socialism is going to work and benefit everyone then there has to be a democratically elected form of government to go along with it. It sounds like the people of Venezuela are so happy about what they are going to get that they are willing to sacrifice some democracy for it.

[EFerrari]

2. One of the constitutional reforms the Chavez government is working on

is writing gay rights into the document.

That is part of what makes Mr. Chavez, um, unpopular with the Church establishment.

[Prism]

6. It's meaningless

If President Bush said he was signing a law that would legalize gay marriage while also granting him the power to detain citizens without charge in a political crisis, I would tell him to take his gay marriage offer and shove it. (Not something I'm given to doing as a gay man).

What's the point in being granted equal rights under the law if a president simultaneously grants himself the power to abrogate those rights at will?

I try to stay out Chavez discussions because I don't feel I'm adequately informed enough to objectively judge whether or not that government is good for the Venezuelan people. However, once that "detain without charge in a political emergency" bit surfaces, we have to speak out. That's undisguised, old-fashioned authoritarianism of the worst kind. Whenever any government or society invests such power in one person, the "disappearances" begin shortly after.

If Bush tried something like that here, there would be rioting in the streets.

Chavez might have some good-sounding social policies, but his naked reach for absolute authoritarian power is being laid bare. As in America, an executive tosses various bits of meat to its social base while doing precisely what they please to overthrow the constitutional order of representative government.

This is so not ok.

[Dorian Gray]

8. Prism...

you've pretty much summed up my worries about this in a nutshell. I KNOW that Chavez has some social reforms that will benefit the people of Venezuela, but are those reforms worth the erosion of liberty? I don't believe so.

SF did point out that the priests were reacting to the inclusion of the gay rights rather than the reach for authoritarian power. That may be a big part of it, but is is the only part.

And while I know that the Catholic Church is not always embraced here, is their reluctance to go along with the contitutional ammendment in Venezuela a result of their own greed? Or is it something more?

[EFerrari]

11. The Catholic Church (not Catholics, mind you) detests

giving up their power, influence or profits. They are one of the world's oldest corporations. :shrug:

[Dorian Gray]

16. I know that you mean the church, not the people.

No need to explain. It's all good. (I am a practicing Roman Catholic, and I don't believe that you would think I'm loathe to giving up my power, influence or profits. And I'm probably somebody who is much more likely to listen to the Catholic establishment than many of the other posters here. So, for the sake of this discussion, let's say that I totally agree with your statement above. Do you truly believe that this is all about objecting to the gay rights being provided within the constitutional ammendment? I am not convinced, but of course that's because this is the first that I've heard of that. Or is it all because the don't want to lose their "stranglehold" on the people in Venezuela. Chavez's power will take away from their power?

[EFerrari]

19. No, it just seems to me that gay rights will be a public hook

to hang Chavez when the real stakes are monetary.

Man, have I come a long way from Our Lady of Mercy Elementary. :)

[Prism]

14. It's ultimately up to the people

Venezuelans have a decision to make regarding these things. And, like Bush and Cheney, Chavez has a large base to draw power from. As long as Chavez crafts reforms and policies to keep his political support viable, they won't care what he does in the upper echelons of government. It's a tactic Rover used well: "Keep the hard Right placated, and they will overlook even those most egregious unconstitutional offenses."

And it works. It works here and it seems to be working in Venezuela.

I don't have a great deal of love for the Catholic Church. I regard it as an organization that is grievously wrong on many things, but also an organization that sometimes gets things right. I agree with them on the death penalty. They were against the Iraq war from the beginning. In this case, I think they're on the side of right. People can assign motivations to them, and knowing those motivations is a good and proper thing when considering an issue. But at the end of the day, either detaining people during a political crisis is right or it is wrong.

I think it's wrong. So does the Catholic Church. So, they get a "Good job," from me.

On this one issue.

[Dorian Gray]

27. It is in the Venezuelan's hands, and

he seems to be very popular with the populace down there. It's a fascinating country/region to watch, that's for sure.

[EFerrari]

9. Please identify the absolute authoritarian power grab. n/t

[Prism]

15. I think . . .

. . . the power to detain citizens without charge during a political emergency is self-explanatory in that regard.

[EFerrari]

18. Although this is common practice in many nations,

I seriously don't think Venezuela will go for it.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2739

[Prism]

20. The opposition is promising

From the article, it doesn't sound like there are very many in the political class who are willing to go along with it.

With Chavez, as with just about any government, I try to stick with the axiom of never allowing an officer of government a power you wouldn't want to see wielded by your political opposition.

Suspension of due process in political emergencies definitely falls under that category, I think.

[EFerrari]

21. Sure. And, remember this has to be voted on.

I don't think Chavez is any kind of saint, he's a politician. And this measure is running up against opposition from the left. That, by itself, should be encouraging.

We'll see soon enough. I have an email in to the VIO to get their statement. If they get back to me, I'll post it.

[NeedleCast]

22. I seriously don't think they're going to have a choice

"Among the basic rights that could be suspended in the case of a state emergency are the right to due process of law, the right to information, the right to an attorney, and the right to a trial, among others."

Chavez seems to have a way of...well, getting his way.

[EFerrari]

23. Yeah. All those elections that are cleaner than ours

have a strange way of giving him his way.

[NeedleCast]

24. I'm not arguging that hes' not the properly

elected leader or that there was anything dirty about the election or that he's very popular. However, I do wonder if he's not using a carrot and stick on his constituancy. It's the same tactic I use on my dog. If I throw him a bone to gnaw on while I'm eating my steak, he'll stop staring at me like I just broke up with him. Doesn't occur to dog to make the logical leap that I'm eating the savory meat while he gnaws on a bone, because he didn't have the bone before, and now he does.

If this passes, I hope the his people are not in a situation in the years to come where they're caught going "hey, wait a minute..." when it's become to late.

[EFerrari]

26. I hope the people of Venezuela have better critical skills

than your dog.

[NeedleCast]

Very good post

[NeedleCast]

17. Dupe

.

[Sneaky Sailor]

25. Any time

someone wants to get rid of term limits i get leary.

[provis99]

3. not surprised the Catholic Church is opposed

they've always supported the landowner fascists in Central and South America against the peasants and the poor. Fuck the Catholic Church, bunch of goddam Christ defilers.

[GeminiProgressive]

4. The Leadership of the Catholic Church

is the anti-christ. They stand against everything that Christ taught.

[Dorian Gray]

10. I know lots of people feel this way

But are they wrong on this topic?

[AngryAmish]

5. Not always - see liberation theology

[EFerrari]

12. Yes and most of those good people got dead while the Vatican hummed a tune.

[AngryAmish]

7. My main beef with Chavez

(I am sure he cares, but here goes)

He talks too much. He has the godawful long TV show every week where most of his inflammatory rhetoric comes from. It is hours long. Why be on TV that much?

He likes the sound of his voice so much he reminds me of the loudmouth guy at the end of the bar.

[EFerrari]

13. Lol. Sure. But remember, he's talking to a different audience. n/t