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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:25 AM
Original message
We need a draft
After all these years of expert opinion on all sides, it seems clear that nobody knows what in hell we can possibly do to get out of Iraq in a way that will facilitate stability.

> Immediate troop pull-out? I don't buy it. After reading a history of Afghanistan, I'm convinced that if we pull out, Iraq will become even more of what it is now: a battlefield of governments and Al Qaeda fighting a proxy war against each other. Iranian-funded Shiites, Saudi-funded Sunnis, Kurds backed into a corner, pissed and perhaps funded by the CIA, Saudi/Eqypt/Worldwide-funded Al Qaeda, Turkish-funded groups, and perhaps even the Turkish military. In the end, the result would be an extremist terrorist-harboring government, Taliban style, sitting on massive energy resources and funded by the deep pockets of Saudi Arabia, Eqypt, and the worldwide network of Islamic charities, a great deal of which is knowingly and unknowingly funneled to terrorist activity. And even that seems optimistic. I highly doubt Iran would sit by and let the Saudis not only grab control of the second largest oil-rich nation, but also extend themselves to Iran's western border. More likely, the fighting would continue as far into the future as you can see, for the prize of Iraq is far too great to cede.

> Phased withdrawal to allow the Iraqi police and military to step up as we step out (to paraphrase a great talking point of our times)? See above, but slightly delayed. Any loyalty policemen and soldiers have to their extremely weak government is in most cases a distant second to the loyalty they have for their communities and local leaders.

> Partitioning the country into Sunni, Kurd, and Shiite independent zones or states? I really don't think it's that simple. It's not like everyone in these groups shares the same opinion about where these lines should be drawn, especially with energy resources at stake. You'd be taking hundreds of thousands or more out of their home and forcing them somewhere else, because if you didn't they'd be "cleansed" if caught in the wrong place. Partitioning would in effect be us trying to declare ourselves the central authority on the ethnic cleansing activities already taking place and expecting all the parties involved to agree where they belong.

But maybe solutions lie in the territory of disallowed ideas.

As a pacifist (mostly), I hate to say it, but I can only see a possible viable solution in a massive increase in U.S. troop presence, and reshaping the entirety of our foreign policy and national priorities to be centered on the goal of a safe, stable, perhaps even democratic Iraq (but for real, not just a talking point to spend more money on campaign contributors). I'm talking about a full-fledged occupation of Iraq in every city and every town.

It also means a draft. In order to agree with a draft, you must agree that the goal is achievable and worth forcing (or pressing, or compelling, or conscripting) young Americans to kill and be killed in a distant land. And I think I'm just about there - not as much for the benefits of a "free" Iraq as much as the consequences of a failed Iraq. But in a addition to troops, success requires other measures, most of the which the Bush administration is not capable by lack of will or opposing philosophy.

Beg and rehire all the retired military personnel who actually knew what the fuck they were talking about before they inconveniently dribbled impurities into Karl Roves lily white talking points. Demote the ass kissers like Petraus to follow the orders of their former and new bosses.

Kick the security contractors out, not only are they a tremendous money sink, but they're unaccountable and fuel opposition. Establish oversight of all contracted activities, ensure everyone is being paid what they deserve and that in turn they are paying their employees fair and just wages and fees. Offer contracts to foreign corporations in return for coalition military forces. Get the goddamn oil running, guard every linear foot of pipeline and use it to pay for contracts that benefit the reconstruction of Iraq. Establish a policy of hiring Iraqi firms, professionals, and labor first and foremost. Contractors must prove to the U.S. government that they did everything they could to accomplish this and only hired others when skills could not be acquired otherwise. When such foreign workers need to be brought in, employees should be from the United States and other nations actively contributing to the reconstruction and stability of Iraq.

Contractors in Iraq should be able to get filthy rich as an incentive to work in a difficult and dangerous environment, but if they don't produce results and try to bilk the tax-payer, then they're gone and someone else gets a chance. No contractor works in Iraq without the agreement of the Iraqi government.

Hold elections immediately, even if flawed and dirty. Support the elected officials and publicly respond to their needs as the rightful leaders of their communities. There needs to be a demonstration that the elected officials have some real power over the occupation forces if not total. Allow an Iraqi government to fight over and draft its own Constitution with advice from the United States. No one-man edicts as those crafted by Paul Bremer.

Prosecute war crimes publicly of others and our own. For those nations funding proxy forces, publicly offer and provide incentives for them to halt such funds and publicly denounce their governments and impose sanctions for when they do not. This means Saudi Arabia, Iran, Eqypt, et al.

Fucking catch and publicly try Osama Bin Laden and his inner circle. Don't tell me it's too hard. It was hard under Clinton because we were relying on second and third-tier informants and agents. But under Bush, our goddamn Army was right there and still is.

Help me flesh this out. I intend to challenge President Kucinich in 2012 for the Democratic nomination if he has not made progress in Iraq.

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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. I intend to challenge President Kucinich in 2012 for the Democratic nomination
Gods I hope you get that chance. I don't agree with you on other points though just for the record. We need to leave the middle east to its own designs for a while. The one thing Bush has said which accidentily ended up being true was that this country is addicted to oil or these outrages couldn't have endured. This country needs to be kicked in the ass in a bad way and made to put its full resources to finding greener sources of energy like immediately.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's absolutely true
But curing our own addiction won't cure anyone else's, and for that matter their need for Iraq's oil and their incentive to wage proxy war for it.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. Just wondering:
If there were a draft would you have to serve?

And do you have a close friend or relative who is currently serving in the military?

Up front, I'm opposed to a draft.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I would not have to serve, I'm 33
So I can't give my argument the credentials of "I would have to go too." But I really can't see another solution. Nothing else seems plausible in preventing Iraq from becoming a terrorist-oil-state.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. 33? Yeah, guess what?
You probably would have to go. They increased the enlistment age to like 42 you don't think they'll throw a rifle on your young ass?
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. They allow 42-year-olds to enlist, but a draft would certainly be different /nt
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yeah they'd probably increase the age to 45
give these warmongers an inch....
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. Maybe not.
They like to take the young ones, from 19 to around 24. That's the way it was during the Vietnam war. I think they would start taking folks older than that after they used up this favored cannon fodder source, and you would need something on the scale of WWII to do that.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. over my dead body
will my daughter go to Iraq. How dare you use my daughter for your politics.
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Selective Service only covers males. n/t
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. now
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. That's kind of silly thing to say.
Was FDR using our soldiers for his "politics?"

If you're talking about a draft in general, then I think it's a legitimate question whether or not a free society should ever have a draft at all. But I'm going to the only place I can see a solution to this problem.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. silly? You offer up my child and suggest my response is silly?
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 08:52 AM by Evergreen Emerald
I think it is reprehensible to suggest to put people in harms way to support a political agenda. Rather than kill more people--why not support getting the hell out of their?

This is an issue near and dear to me. And until it is for you--until you have someone that would be risking his or her life--I suggest you stop offering up other people's children.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Just because I don't have kids doesn't invalidate my opinion
That's like saying that since I haven't personally seen Iraq, then I shouldn't have an opinion about that either. And how is this a political agenda? I'm talking about solving the colossal problem that's the currently endless Iraq War. As far as "getting the hell out of there," try reading my post. I address that option.

And how about you? Why are you so eager to offer up countless more Iraqi child's lives to bombs just because you don't want a draft? And what about the countless civilians that will continue to be killed because of your "political agenda" of avoiding a draft? Is that a really dumb thing for me to say? Of course it is. Your comment about me "offering up other people's children" is equally stupid.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. nice try...
suggesting that I am offering up Iraq children because I don't want a draft? What the hell kind of triangulation is that?


To suggest that because we don't have a draft we are killing more Iraq children than we would with a draft...defys logic.


we need to GET OUT OF IRAQ. We don't need to be killing more children. American or Iraqi.

And I am so tired of people suggesting that a draft would stop the war. 1. History has proven that untrue. 2. My child will not be used for a political agenda.

You want more people in Iraq--pack your bags. Leave my kid alone.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Evergreen, I appreciate your passion, but you really need to read more carefully
I offered up those statements as something purposely ridiculous in order to make the point that your accusations of me were equally ridiculous. Note the part where I clearly pointed out that it was a dumb thing for me to say. I made it a point to include that statement in case the sarcasm would otherwise be lost, but apparently that wasn't enough.

And again, as far as just getting out, I address in the OP why I think that's a bad idea. If you disagree, I really really (I swear to God) want to know why. What do you think would happen over there if we just pulled out? Get past the euphoria of "Our kids are home. Thank God," and talk about the day after that.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. And please tell me, is a close friend or loved one currently serving in the military?
I'm testing a theory. I've been wondering how many of those in favor of a draft have such a stakeholder relationship.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
27. I'm currently arguing with Evergreen about that
But I have no close relationships that fall into what would be a typical draft age.

And your question is very legitimate. I admit I might have an opposite opinion on this if I had an 18-year-old kid, but I'd rather hear a counter argument based on the merits of my opinion instead of a kind of "magic bullet" that torpedoes it without really addressing it.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. You have a right to an opinion regardless of your personal stake in this.
Discussion of bias are legitimate but nobody has to have draft-age kids, or be veteran, or have any other such qualifications before they can opine on this subject. And you seem to be conducting you discussion in an open and honest manner.

But I guess I didn't phrase my question clearly:

Do you have a close friend or relative who is already serving in the military today? You see, I have wondered how many people who are in favor of the draft are motivated by a desire to find some relief for their relatives who have chosen to join.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Oh I see. I do not have any close associations currently active /nt
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. OK, thanks.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'm opposed to it unless we were sure it would wake this sleeping nation up
At the very least where is the gas/food/services rationing for everyone if we're a "nation at war"
We've been in Iraq longer than our troops were in the european and pacific theaters in WWII but john q republican still gets to have his gas guzzler and unlimited gallons a week. You want shared sacrifice in this war? People will send their kids to die before they give up their comforts. Sad but I wager true for a lot of people.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. Drafting to gain peace is like screwing to promote virginity
You're right about the shared sacrifice, but I'm afraid there would be few 30 percenters who would wake up. For example, if the 2001 & 2003 tax cuts were rescinded (which they should be in any case) and if taxes were increased above that to pay for the war in Iraq, these people would just blame 'tax-and-spend' Democrats, never coming out of their Faux Noise induced stupor long enough to realize it is the borrow-and-spend-more Republicans who put us in this mess.
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
5. How large would you make the military?
If we are already capable of manning a military of over two million through volunteers, how large would you increase the military and accompanying budget to account for the millions of military aged kids that you want to draft?
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. To accomplish the things the neo cons want to do?
We'd need a standing army of like 20 million.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. You're past my expertise there
But according to TPM, security contractors cost approximately six times what a U.S. soldier costs. So I think getting rid of them, and establishing meaningful oversight of contracting in general, would result in a tremendous amount of money to fund the increase.

As far as troop levels, I would take the advice of the generals (not the ass-kissers, but the knowledgeable ones).
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. I think Blackwater only has about 1000 - 1500 employees
working for the State Department. Not exactly a huge number to start a draft to replace.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. They're not the only ones there.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Every damn woman, child and old person... LOL
Draft all of 'em. :eyes:
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
19. We have the new American Foreign Legion now, no draft necessary.
US Army Lures Foreigners with Promise of Citizenship

More than 30,000 foreign troops are enlisted in the US Army, many of them serving in Iraq. Their reward for risking their lives for their adopted country is US citizenship.

When Anna Maria Clarke, 26, was a teenager living in the western German city of Mannheim, she already had a weakness for smart uniforms, particularly on American soldiers, and for war movies like "Full Metal Jacket." It was an attraction that Clarke, a German citizen, felt early on and still feels today.

The parents of 25-year-old Julieta Ortiz immigrated to the United States from Mexico City, dirt-poor but ambitious. They worked hard picking strawberries in California, determined that their daughter would have a better life. Four years ago, Julieta suddenly found a way to that better life -- a difficult path, but one that would lift her out of the poverty of her childhood.

Jose Figueira, 31, spent much of his life listening to his father proudly recount his experiences as a soldier in the Portuguese army. Figueira, who grew up in Massachusetts, yearned to have something he could be just as proud of. "I wanted to prove that I'm a good citizen, that I'm willing to stand up for everything I love about this country."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,512384,00.html
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Old Vet Donating Member (618 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
22. Totally Agree...
And yes I was already drafted, Want this war over,And I mean quick. Sound cold hearted,No, It cries daily for the troops.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
28. Your local Draft Board needs Liberals. Badly. Desperately. I implore you all to join.
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 09:09 AM by IanDB1
Do you really want a bunch of right-wing chickenhawks deciding who is a "real" Conscientious Objector, for example?

That is my own, personal opinion.


For more info, See:


Local Board Membership Information Request


Must be 18 years old or older
Must be a citizen of the United States
Men must have registered with the Selective Service, except those born from March 29, 1957 through December 31, 1959.
Must not be an employee of any law enforcement organization
Must not be an active or retired member of the Armed Forces
Must not have been convicted of any criminal offense.


Local Board members are volunteers appointed by the President. They play an important community role closely connected with our nation's defense. If a military draft becomes necessary, approximately 2,000 Local Boards throughout America would decide which young men in each community receive deferments, postponements, or exemptions from military service based on federal guidelines.

This form is for people interested in becoming a Local Board Member with Selective Service. To register with Selective Service, you should go to the on-line registration page.

If you are interested in receiving information on becoming a Board Member for the Selective Service System (SSS), please complete this form. When you submit the following information to the Selective Service System, you will receive an application for board membership, a business reply envelope, and a Board Member Information Booklet that gives details on Board Member responsibilities. After you have submitted your application, a Selective Service employee will contact you to schedule a personal interview.

More:
https://www.sss.gov/localboardmembers/bminquiry.asp
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
30. Took some heat, but no substantive counter-arguments.
I know there's someone on this board with a reason why I'm wrong. I want to hear from you.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
38. Conscription is slavery.
It flies against our basic tenants of fairness and free choice. And for this reason it is morally reprehensible to reinstate the draft unless absolutely necessary. But is it?

Approximately 1,426,713 personnel are currently on active duty in the military with an additional 1,259,000 personnel in the National Guard and Reserves. And in 2005 US military spending was almost two fifths of the world total. Why do we need such a large standing military? It is because we are an imperialistic nation. But we should aspire to become a nation of peace, and in that case we would not need such a large military.

One argument in favor of conscription is that the military is stretched thin and it's getting harder to find new recruits. But this is because our military forces are engaged in conflicts around the globe that are none of our business.

The United States does not need to start wars or to engage in almost every international peacekeeping operation that comes along. We need to choose our wars carefully and if in doubt, then stay out.

If more forces are needed in Iraq or elsewhere they can be derived by closing some of the 700 military bases we currently have in 36 other countries. I'm pretty sure Hitler and Mussolini are dead, so there are 75,603 troops in Germany and 10,449 in Italy who are ready for action. I think it's reasonable to assume that Pearl Harbor is safe from Japan now, so we can redeploy the 40,045 troops we have there. Unless you can think of a good reason we have to keep our forces in South Korea any longer, I've found another 29,086 who are good to go. Add to that the 10,331 who are in the UK and you have enough to more than double the number of the 160,000 US troops who are in Iraq today.

Resumption of the draft is wrong on moral grounds. And it is a bad step in the wrong direction in that it would even further bloat our unsustainable military spending. Even worse, it would give the current administration more resources to invade other countries like Iran.

Resumption of the draft at this time is a very bad idea.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
34. First of all, I am not willing to have my family pulled into the venture.
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 09:47 AM by sicksicksick_N_tired
Second, either continued presence or overwhelming presence (military or mercs) still amounts to an occupation which the natives naturally loathe. So, the assumption that immediate withdrawal will absolutely end in disaster is one of many assumptions that may very well be the less correct among them. There is NO reason to dismiss the assumption that the Iraqi people have the capacity to form a workable government and re-build their own country. Of course, economic restitution will be required and is a just action considering we are completely responsible for the present state of that nation. Ensuring the money does NOT end up in the hands of the most corrupt and incorrigible would be a good thing.
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Good points
When we first got there we were not nearly as hated as we are now. Of course, we did it to ourselves. There are only so many days of unemployment and no water and electricity you can take before the occupiers have lost all credibility, so sending more will not endear the locals very soon. But I think if real results are made and sustained, we could win back their support or at least tolerance.

As far as the Iraqis governing themselves, I think they are capable and not at the same time. In America, we are blessed with a "we're all Americans so let's get along" type thing. My favorite such quote is by Jesse Jackson, something like: "We came over in different boats, but we're in the same boat now." Iraq does not have such a sentiment, not broadly at least. It is too populated by those who easily fall into loyalty with their traditional tribal groups. And even if such sentiment existed, Iraq is now infested with unwelcome guests who have gone there to fight a jihad against each other, not only the U.S. So I have serious doubts about the Iraqi's being able to go it alone.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. I believe those differences can be worked out once a divisive occupier leaves.
Iraqis did co-exist among themselves before we destroyed their country. Cross-marriage among traditional tribal groups was not uncommon. Moreover, the middle-class (now, mostly refugees, unfortunately) was/is as sophisticated as the average American. Lastly, I doubt any Iraqi wouldn't agree s/he are in the 'same boat' scenario.

The 'unwelcome' guests represent a very very small percentage of the Iraqi population. I can't help but reject the notion a relative handful of extremists are destined to prevent Iraqis from re-building their society and their country. Sure, just like our extremists cause harm on many levels, the extremists in Iraq will deliver a destructive challenge but certainly not the kind the Iraqi people are incapable of overcoming.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. Iraqis only co-existed before because Saddam kept a tight rein

on the country. Yes, Iraq had many sophisticated and educated citizens, most of whom have probably left the country or been killed. But once Saddam was deposed, the old tribal feuds began again. Bad as he was, many were willing to have him back after a bit of "liberation" because there is anarchy now and more violence than they faced when Hussein was in power.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
35. The "war" is lost. Sending more troops is just compounding the loss.
The failure is obvious and irredeemable. To add more kerosene to a raging fire isn't a solution, it's a crime.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
37. Wait!! Wait!! I got here late!!!
:popcorn: okay continue! Anyone want some?
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Too late.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. dang, I hate that.
all this popcorn goes to waste.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Not to worry.
It won't get stale before another flaming thread comes along.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. looks as it it started up again!
Want some? :popcorn:
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Why yes, thank you.
:popcorn:

Mmmmm, you know just how much butter and salt to use.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. You know I like to sprinkle some grated cheese on it once in a while...
:popcorn:
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. I am totally opposed to a draft.
The volunteer army is more professional, more capable and more committed.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
43. We don't need a draft. We need a friggin' overhaul of our political system.
Politics has now defied the very purpose of our Constitution. Politics DEFIES and BETRAYS "the people".

If a draft is needed, it's a draft of political dissidents/opponents/opposition.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
45. How old are you?
If you're under the maximum age allowed in your preferred branch of service, you SHOULD VOLUNTEER, rather than call on those less brave than you to be drafted.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
46. BZZZZT
sorry, you lose
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Beerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
47. If drafted under the authority of a Dept. of Peace,
I'm on board.
As for prosecuting war-crimes, none of this bullshit would be happening if the U.S. didn't start so many wars, so maybe Dennis' idea of a Dept. of Peace could hold prosecutorial and subpoena powers over the so-called Dept. of Defense.
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
49. My husband wouldn't be the first to be drafted but he'd be on the list
He's 26.

And they'll have to kill me to take him away from me.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
53. no draft...they will kill all of our children....no fucking draft
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
54. Let me tell you why I incline to agree.
Edited on Wed Oct-24-07 11:02 AM by w8liftinglady
After a long "discussion" with one of the neocons I work with,we began talking about veterans' rights,ptsd,lack of proper equipment.Her reply-"Oh,c'mon-they don't have it any worse than any other country-they VOLUNTEERED"That is their cop-out.Screw the other kids,as long as it didn't include theirs.I would allow a public service option,like the Peace Corps,for someone who is a conscientious objector,but otherwise include male and female alike.We have female soldiers dying in Iraq,too.And yes,I have three sons,one who has been to Iraq 3 times.This business of recycling the same soldiers over and over again is bullshit.

##And-YES-my first choice is withdrawel.barring that,though...
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