There is an infection in America, corrupting it to its very core...

[Danger Mouse]

and it is Corporatism.
We have sitting in the white house a president who is bought and paid for by big business, who has dismantled the social safety net in the name of profits.
We have politicians on both sides of the aisle raking in fat stacks of cash to give the middle finger to taxpayers and push corporate agendas.
War for profit. Halliburton. Blackwater.
Privatization of our prisons...tax cuts for the wealthy.
Corporate ownership of the media.
Opium for the people.
It's all there. It's getting worse. With each passing day, the almighty corporation strengthens its stranglehold on America. It won't even matter once Bush is gone...unless we get a president dedicated to fighting the oligarchy, the corporations will still be in charge. Only the faces will change.
We like to believer we are free but we are NOT. We don't determine our destiny, and our representatives and senators do not work for us. The corporations pay a lot better, and don't make any demands on integrity or credibility.
The infection of corporatism has made America ill, deathly ill...our system has become something unrecognizable. A bizarre kind of capitalism run amok.
There is no competition and fair play...only merging, crushing, and bribing.
This is what was once America, and can be again.
Only when we purge the corporate infection can we be great again.
How can we do this? What chances do we have?
I for one, think we need a PROGRESSIVE in the white house...a true blue dem with the courage and the fortitude to take on the evil corporations and break their iron grip on our country.
If we elect another corporate slave, we will only get continued corporate slavery. THE TRUE PROBLEM ISN'T SO MUCH BUSH AND CHENEY AS WHO IS PULLING THE STRINGS!!!
It is my hope that in '08, we will see Americans standing up for the ideals that made our country something worth being proud. VOTE FOR PROGRESSIVE DEMS...NO VOTES FOR CORPORATE SLAVES AND TOADIES!!

[ThomCat]

1. I will gladly kick and recommend everything you just said!

:applause:

[Danger Mouse]

2. thanks man

:pals:

[JeffR]

3. rec 5!

I'm with you.

[Danger Mouse]

9. appreciated.

:)
i've been reading 'Bushit' lately, and it's packed from cover to cover with all of the sleazy breaks that Bush has given to big business. literally turns my stomach to read :puke:

[Gregorian]

4. I would like to say something that most people might find offensive.

And instead of writing a long story about why I believe this is the case, which I could, because I think about this every single day, and I have been thinking about it for years, I'll just be blunt.


We're asking corporations to do the things we used to do, for us. That's it.

We used to live in communities. We don't really live in communities any more, although we call them that. And I'll even add this in, even though it's just putting something else that people will find offensive into my post. All of those cars you see running up and down the streets. They're doing that because of the same thing I posted above. Since we are not at home and in our communities doing the things we need to do to survive, we're running around in cars grabbing what we need at places where the corporations distribute the goods we ask for. And it's a great way to live. Up to a point. And we reached that point about a hundred years ago. But it's so cool. VCR's, and all kinds of awesome stuff. But now, even the planet can't handle it. So we're completely dependent upon the corporations. It's like a flock of sheep with a wolf for a shepard. It's killing us in more ways that I care to count. We're separated from our families and community, the speed at which it's happening is dizzying, it's unsustainable, and future generations will be in despair trying to understand why we jeopardized their world for our pleasure.

We have given them the power. And the only way to take it back is to turn an about face and go back to what we were doing. The slower, smaller, less comfortable way. One which is insulting to even mention to almost everyone. How dare I even mention it.

[Danger Mouse]

14. excellent post, wish i could recommend it!

:pals:
of course, by doing nothing, and accepting the coporate opium, we have allowed this to happen.
look at the rise of the strip mall, wal mart, and the death of small businesses and the price we pay for convenience.

[fizzgig]

19. i don't find that offensive at all

and therein lies the rub. are we willing to give up these things? all the widgets and gadgets and doodads, all the conveniences we enjoy, all the trappings of modernity.

i agree with you, we have given up our power, but i also wonder how we can right this ship. on what massive scale would we have to act? i'm not saying it's not possible, but i don't know how we'd do it. so many are comfortable and complacent. can i run to the store when i'm out of milk? great. can i buy a pair of shoes when my old ones wear out? fantastic.

there needs to be a change in perception before there can be a change in action and perception is a difficult thing to change.

[Danger Mouse]

22. that's how the get us...

getting us hooked on the drug, till the people are unable to tear themselves away.
it's insidiously effective.

[Gregorian]

43. It's going to take change on several facets of the situation.

We will need to produce energy without causing harm to the environment. And that's pretty much impossible. Even hydroelectric dams flood the countryside. We'd need to stabilize and then decrease population. I mean, even in these numbers we can't even all have wood fires. Everyone knows the story of the Black Forest. And that was a long time ago.

And in a way, we almost had to get to our present position in order to realize the fate we face.

You ask a good question. One I thought I was prepared to answer, but am not.

Theoretically, we would live in small groups by flowing water. Our diet would consist of things that don't cause tooth decay, and keep us healthy. But there are problems. I've lived in a number of places now, and I have spent a lot of time in forests and around rural areas. There is no game. There are no fish. And that's a problem. For example, there was a ranch I looked at in the late 90's, and it was the death of the father that left the place to five kids. And the story was that this river used to teem with salmon. Enough that they supplied San Francisco with a lot of their fish. It's dead now. I just sold a farm in Oregon. Last December I walked the creeks. There were a few dozen salmon. Even one four feet long. It was a thrill. But there should have been thousands. There was a herd of elk. I had about twenty. Watching them gallop around the trees in the morning was something I'll remember for life. But twenty? There should have been hundreds. Instead of the fifty geese, the sky should have blackened and sounded like a 747. That's what the old timers told me about. Not any more. People shot them over the years.

So what do we do? In my estimation we are going to see slow change. We're about as bad as it can get right now. If not, I don't even want to see it. Six billion is just wrong. I believe it'll decrease. What's left of the planet will begin to grow back, except for the depleted uranium, which has a halflife of four billion years. Some places won't be habitable. I don't know.

For now, it looks like we've painted ourselves into a corner. I will always remember the very moment this all struck me. It was about 1970. I got to the top of an overpass, and looked at all the cars. It was right then that I realized we were in deep trouble. And I've been suffering ever since. In fact, just this morning I went to look at a beautiful piece of property with redwood trees and an ocean view. It's something I've been working twenty years to try and find. It was my third visit. But this time the wind was blowing in the right direction. This is Mendocino. It's not San Jose. But still, I turned around hurt and left. The noise from the cars was coming from all directions. People in cars on highway one and surrounding roads. Roads that ten years ago had almost no one. Now it's just awful. So that was my day. A huge disappointment, thanks to the god damn automobile.

I don't think I added much here. But at least I got to vent a little. Thanks for listening.

[Danger Mouse]

45. you added a lot. it was a beautiful post.

part of the problem is all the damage we have done, and are still doing, to our environment, if we don't change, then nature will force a change, and it will not be pretty.

[fizzgig]

50. i appreciate your insight

and you sharing your experiences.

and you added something - perspective. i'm just a kid and although i've watched developers and builders eat away at what was once beautiful open space around my city, that is all i know. we all need a reality check sometimes.

[Gregorian]

163. I often think of the younger people in our society.

I got to see a little bit of what was left. I wonder which is worse. Nothing at all, or seeing it ruined. It really frustrates me to think that your generation got concrete. I really liked that part of the Smashing Pumpkins 1972 video where they drive out to the new subdivision and flip it off. That was like therapy. :)

[glowing]

57. Its not the people, its the way people live... We need a huge FDR type

overhaul on America...Getting rid of the many cars for access to modern public transportation systems would help incredibly. We need to get rid of GMO foods and the pesticides they require would help to bring back our fish and our birds.. they are highly effected by pesticides.

Did you know the average developing countries walk approx. 10 miles per day? Could you imagine having the time to walk that far? Just walking 4 to 5 miles per day would increase everyone's health 10 fold... The average American walks about 1 mile if that in a day. Even Europeans walk more than we do.

We need to insist on 30 hr work weeks that pay us to do our work. We are more advanced and produce more than we did 100 years ago because of technology. Technology should help us, not make us worker harder and longer. And with that extra time, we build our communities again. Particpate in community gardening, sporting events, pot luck dinners....

Population will continue to decrease as women around the world are given access to family planning services. Believe me, 2 children or 6, 8, 10 children... not too many would choose the latter. 2 is plenty. In some cases none is the preference and that is ok too.

[Danger Mouse]

113. an FDR or a TR...break up the trusts!

and yes, family planning would be an excellent idea...fundies will fight that tooth and nail, tho...

[vssmith]

121. We may be able to get an FDR

but only after we get another depression. And that may happen. I don't want to go through the pain of a depression but it would be a cathartic a great leveler.

[Gregorian]

162. That's true, and also not the complete truth.

It's both the number of people AND the way they live.

It's exactly that combination. And two kids per family will ensure that the population remains at it's present size. We're going to have to have fewer than two, or we go nowhere.

Now I will agree, and I had this discussion with someone yesterday, that even though there are millions of people in undeveloped countries, they are not living a modern lifestyle. And so they are not contributing to the destruction of the planet. But, once they do begin living that lifestyle, then their numbers are part of that equation. So it's true that it's not population, when people are sustaining themselves without destroying the planet. There is more, but it's about the suffering of large numbers of people when they don't have petroleum to enable them to sustain their lives. Like in the poorer and hugely populated areas of the planet. They suffer. But we make the planet suffer.

It's an interesting subject. I've been frustrated by the fact that people just don't seem to have vision. Why not look ahead, I always ask myself. Avoid trouble.

[glowing]

168. Yes and no. If we were at a place in this world where we were at

in an Utopian state and there weren't little invisible lines that divided up countries, people can spread out in such a way that impact is less.. How many Chinese or Indians could you put in Wyoming before the impact on that state becomes unsustainable?

As people become more developed, their populations decline. Japan has a negative population growth.. It is impacting their economy because less young are taking care of more old. There are a few European countries that are facing similar situations. In these cases, allowing for immigration would benefit their countries and allow other countries to breath a bit.

Anyway, we need to massively change our energy consumption and the source in which we get it from. We need to get rid of Monsanto crops.. they are devastating our soil, water systems, and not to mention our own personal health. And everyone needs to learn to eat meat like it was a side item and not the main course. There are so many things that can be done.

I refuse to devalue life. Saying someone is unwanted because they are in your space is selfish and disgusting. Perhaps, you would prefer to resort to Chinese laws (1 child per family)? Women accessing information and birth control are 2 things that bring population issues into control.

[Locrian]

67. great point and post

We have given them the power. And the only way to take it back is to turn an about face and go back to what we were doing. The slower, smaller, less comfortable way. One which is insulting to even mention to almost everyone. How dare I even mention it.

Except I have no idea how to put that genie back into the bottle voluntarily. Meaning how do you get almost EVERYONE to do this? Because most people are (statistically speaking) average and will NOT give up their way of life even if it is killing them. And WHAT do we do differently?

I fear a drastic tipping point, driven primarily because we have TOO MANY PEOPLE on the planet. And its about to be rectified one way or another.

[redqueen]

70. I'm glad you mentioned it.

Live simply.

[Dora]

71. Will you be my neighbor?

Thank you for the reality check - I wholeheartedly agree.

[Gregorian]

81. Haha. It's early. I'm still half asleep. And I'm thinking Mister Rogers.

I honestly think my post was rather poorly stated. But it sure feels good to get positive support.

The funny part of it all is that I'm a mechanical engineer. I'm someone who absolutely loves mechanical stuff. But that is also why I know what is going on behind the scenes.

I hang out on a few espresso forums. And it's just amazing to see how some people literally fly around the world to get together and pour a few espressos.

Anyways, I'm off and running. But thanks. There is so much to talk about. I do make a good neighbor, by the way.

[YankeyMCC]

73. Well said

I don't know who would find that offensive, I know many who can't process what your saying or laugh at it as 'unrealistic' but I counter that continuing on as we are, as you describe, is unrealistic. At least if we hope to progress as a society and species.

[codjh9]

82. No, you're right, and it's going to go back to the older, more localized way,

whether we want it to or not, due to running out of oil, global warming, and other factors. A lot of the (what I call) after-the-apocalypse SF novels I've read are possibly going to come true... I hope not, and it may not come about, but some things are pointing that way. It depends on how soon and how well we deal with these things.

[CrispyQ]

111. You're right.

We value things more than people. We care less & less about our here-&-now communities. We sit in front of our computers or on our cell phones & talk with people who aren't even there while we put here-&-now people 'on hold.'

In the book "Affluenza" the authors discuss how before WWII Americans were becoming more affluent. Many were starting to define affluence as less work time, not more money. Many unions were fighting for a six hour work day. Then we became involved in the war. Women were no longer discouraged from working. After the war, Madison Avenue, via the new technology of television, had a huge impact on our culture. Not only was the work week firmly established as 40 hours, we now had the mythical Jones' to keep up with. We traded in our citizenship to become consumers. They have us right where they want us & most don't even see it.

In my own family I see loved ones who are caught up in having new things. Shopping is the favorite pastime. Yet, it seems that the thrill of each new thing wears off faster & faster. Certainly faster than the debt they are piling up. Years ago I lived that life style & it caught up with me. It took years to dig myself out of the hole, but it sure did teach me a lesson.

Another really great book is Thom Hartmann's "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" where he discusses the difference between competitive societies & cooperative ones.

Enough rambling! I've got a project to work on & a here-&-now boss to report to! ;)

:hi:

[Gregorian]

170. I saw the Affluenza documentary.

I'm like a fish swimming upstream. For years I have said that time is more valuable than money. After all, what would a dying man ask for. Money, or time. And so I've left high paying jobs to buy land. And even just now, I hung up the phone with my dad, talking about my next possible land purchase. I'm trying to find this place where I can own it outright, and yet not have to work. I've sacrificed a lot for this dream. I'm trying to find and live that life that people had before world war two. And it's very difficult now, because people realized how nice it is. And now it's an expensive dream. I'm possibly going to miss out on it.

Speaking of rambling... I've enjoyed this thread. Thanks!

[CrispyQ]

175. Remember in the opening scene of "Gone With the Wind"

there was a sundial inscribed with the words: Time is the essence of our lives.

Another old saying I like is: He who dies with the most toys, still dies.

Colbert had the author of this book on a few months ago. I'm hoping my library gets it.

"The World Without Us" by Alan Weisman
http://www.amazon.com/World-Without-Us-Alan-Weisman/dp/0312347294

snip...

Teasing out the consequences of a simple thought experiment—what would happen if the human species were suddenly extinguished—Weisman has written a sort of pop-science ghost story, in which the whole earth is the haunted house. Among the highlights: with pumps not working, the New York City subways would fill with water within days, while weeds and then trees would retake the buckled streets and wild predators would ravage the domesticated dogs. Texas’s unattended petrochemical complexes might ignite, scattering hydrogen cyanide to the winds—a "mini chemical nuclear winter." After thousands of years, the Chunnel, rubber tires, and more than a billion tons of plastic might remain, but eventually a polymer-eating microbe could evolve, and, with the spectacular return of fish and bird populations, the earth might revert to Eden.

Good luck on your dream. It's a good one & I hope you can make it happen.

[dickbearton]

137. Gregorian, I don't find your posting offensive...

but I do find it confused. The buying and selling of goods and
services has got nothing to do with corrupt government. You
miss the whole point; it is the buying and selling of
politicians that causes corrupt government. We have given them
power, not by allowing them to buy and sell goods and
services; but by allowing them to buy and sell politicians. We
allow a corrupt system of bribery called lobbying (legalized
bribery); whether corporations, partnerships, or sole
proprietors do it, matters little. It is lobbying or legalized
bribery, the buying and selling of government, that corrupts
government.

[Gregorian]

172. I see your angle on this.

If I get it right, you are saying that we can consume, and yet keep the corporations under control. I don't agree with that. I think my original argument stands. And the reason I say that is that often the corporate executives are the same people who make the laws. And even if they aren't, their money has the same effect. Like bringing a big company into a town. The supervisors of the town know that the taxes will flow in, and the corporation often has to, or offers to, help with the town's infrastructure. A large company may put in a new road and some on and off-ramps. Stuff like that. But your thoughts are still correct though. We can find ways to contain the big company behaviors. But I think it's unlikely. And regardless of how they act, we still fuel them with our consumption. And we still find ourselves at the mercy of their products. We give away our ability to produce by giving it to them. OK, I'll admit we have two topics going on here. And both of us are right.

I think it's time for me to get away from the computer for a while. Help! :)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

143. Sprawl and cars and churches - are the disease

Sprawl and cars feed one another. There are some excellent documentaries on sprawl which have been shown on PBS which explain that sprawl leads to greater sprawl. Sprawl does not stop. It has to BE stopped.

The more sprawled we are, the more alone we are, the more dependant we are on corporations, the less we talk to one another, hiding always in suburbian homes, commuting for hours in our cars. The entire nation takes on an attitude of isolation. We don't speak in community. We don't visit one another impromptu. We're superficial and think of anyone appearing on the TV as our friend, guide, and hero.

The only "communities" we have available (and these well deserve to be in quotes, as they aren't real communities at all), are churches. We drive every Sunday to a building where a group of people will finally speak to one another in a community-like fashion, but only expressing Republican ideologies because churches in the U.S. are almost all, Republican.

[Gregorian]

169. Great thoughts.

I'm so glad to hear that others see what I see. I know I'm not alone in thinking what you have also expressed. We've lost a lot to gain the comforts this modern society gives us. I think that even crime is increased by the lack of accountability that a smaller community has.

And we've only touched on the surface.

But sadly, you and I are electronic in our relationship. But it's comforting to know you are out there.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

177. Thank you. Our middle class is helpless now.

I began to realize what had weakened our middle class in every way when I began to travel the world. In Europe sprawl is not the issue it is here. People talk to one another and have contact. There's not so much land that such massive, horrible sprawl can occur, and the governments control building and expansion so that the damages that are routinely happening in our country don't happen there as much. Sprawl has weakened the middle class by destroying our communities. The only power that exists now is money, so only the rich have power. We can't even congregate except by appointments, that's how dispersed we are.

[Swamp Rat]

5. k&r

[Danger Mouse]

7. new world order is right..

enslave the poor in corporate owned prisons.
destroy the middle class by eliminating the social safety net.
give all the power to the rich.
kiss america goodbye.

[Swamp Rat]

10. Don't for get:

kill all the free-thinkers and the unwilling... like most of us in New Orleans.

[Danger Mouse]

12. that's what Blackwater is for...

'accidentally' whack a few protestors to take the wind out of the sails of the peace movement.

[druidity33]

116. small stat

i read on this forum a few days ago that arrests for possession of Marijuana was over 800,000 people this year (up again from last year). That's people who were jailed. That's more than all violent crimes put together. What fuels the prison industry? The war on drugs and mandatory minimums.

Legalizing hemp and decriminalizing Marijuana would go a long way toward setting this country STRAIGHT again...

:)

[Romis]

86. How true and this will explain it:

The fascist blueprint.
Naomi Wolf on "The end of America"
Video:
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/177.html

[Richard Steele]

6. K&R

[Danger Mouse]

27. thanks and love the sigline

:hi:

[Richard Steele]

30. Yeah, Babin is seldom my favorite political cartoonist, but he really nailed that one, didn't he? nm

[fizzgig]

8. very well written

i think you hit a good point toward the end there, that it isn't so much the wonder twins who are pulling the strings than it is them pandering to what got them where they are

[Danger Mouse]

11. of course it is important to address the enablers...bush and cheney...but when they're out of the wh

it won't matter...the corporations will still be there.
i think this is what people are not realzing.

[fizzgig]

20. i'm not saying it's not important to address the enablers

but the underlying situation also needs ample attention

[babylonsister]

13. Wow. If there were no mention of progressives, this could apply to

anyone or everyone.
Thanks again!

[Danger Mouse]

15. i think there are many among us who don't see the forest for the trees...

fact of the matter is, even when bush and cheney are gone, the corporations will still be there.
there are dems out there with the determination and the courage to fight. we need to stand behind them.

[mother earth]

72. You are so right! Choose wisely.

[earth mom]

16. * and Cheney ARE the Corporations. nt

[Danger Mouse]

17. they are, but like i said before...

the coprorations will still be there when bush and cheney are gone, with all kinds of shiny new powers and protections that they were given by their buddies.
it'll be up to the next president to undo that and to reverse the trend.
unfortunately, if that president is a corporate toadie like beavis and butthead, nothing will change. nothing important, at least.

[earth mom]

29. That's why we need Gore-a person with Integrity. nt

[Danger Mouse]

32. Gore would be good...or kucinich...

i don't know if any of the big three have what it takes.

[barbtries]

64. you're right

there's gotta be 10, 100, or a million greedy mofo's who will happily take up wherever they leave the quagmire.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Yanno ..... I own a corporation.

With two partners. We have one employee. We make a living. That's it.

Actually, we're an LLC, but for the sake of this thread, there's really no difference.

Does that make me a corporate toadie or slave or :gasp: a corporatist?

I think your enemy is the ruthless motherfuckers who run BIG bidniss .... not corporations, per se. There are lots of corporations where Mom and Pop are the Board, the son is the staff and the daughter is the bookeeper. They mow lawns and own two riding mowers, a trailer and a pickup.

[Danger Mouse]

21. i'm not saying all corporations, obviously.

the problem is the huge megacorps that run everything.
business is a good thing, on a limited scale. small corporations aren't evil. :hi:

[Stinky The Clown]

23. Okay, just checkin'

:hi:

There are lots of broad brushes in use these days. :)

[Danger Mouse]

24. i hear that. especially on du.

can't count how many times i've seen all or nothing statements lately.

[Sparkly]

139. And what about mine?

You know, my Misfortune 500 Company?

[Stinky The Clown]

160. The only misfortune is that I didn't invest more in it .....

.... but ..... :sigh: ...... if nothing else, at least you're decorative. :loveya: :hug: :loveya:

[AntiFascist]

49. I totally agree, but I think the OP was making a point about corporatism...

where a group of corporations have undue influence over the government. Separation of government and business should be as sacred as separation of church and state, but with the total corruption of our governing bodies, up becomes down.

[Virginia Dare]

98. No, that's unchecked capitalism...n/t

[Vilis Veritas]

65. This is not about enemies. It is about RIGHTS.

The reason small operations incorporate is that it affords protection of owners and their personal assets. Owners of corporations can do almost anything they want and avoid prosecution or seizure of their assets.

It is because Corporations gained person hood 100 years ago that we are in the mess we are in now. Corporations are 'entities' or 'legal persons'. The problem that this causes is that the large corporations can now inflict their 'WILL' onto the people, thereby replacing the 'WILL of THE PEOPLE' with the 'Corporate Will'.

And that is bad.

The fact that you are a good person has nothing to do with the fact that you donned the wolf's clothing in order to protect your assets - it is merely a fact of the way that the Corporate Oligarchs have set it up - millions of people just like you have found it palatable because of the protections it affords. Becoming a corporation for a small operation has some perks, THAT is how they made it PALATABLE to the PEOPLE.

Jefferson said;

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson

Over 200 years later, the Corporations have won the day...and we let them do it. There is hope, we can take it back the day. They did it in one County. We need to do it, one county at a time. Since we can not move this Juggernaut - we must start at the smallest levels and work up...be the thorn that brings down the lion.

Peace.

[endarkenment]

90. No it doesn't and you know that.

However part of the problem is that even your LLC has a legal status of personhood that has allowed the growth of huge global corporations that wield power under the shield of rights intended for individual human beings and not for global neo-feudal organizations.

Obviously the OP was not referring to incorporated partnerships or small businesses.

[tammywammy]

127. And you know Sprint/Nextel mobile is a Partnership

:)

Big doesn't equal corporation as well.

[lvx35]

25. No president will ever have the power to stand up against all of it. Here's why:

Money I spent Internet this year: $500
Apple Macbook: $1100
Power (necessary to run computer of course) this year: $400

Total money I've given to corporations this year JUST to have the things needed to connect to DU: $2000
Total money given to dems so far this year $70

Me bitching on DU about corporate influence while I give 99% of my income to coporations: priceless

I'm not alone in this at all, and I acknowledge I could be doing much better. In order to overcome the corporatism WE need to change, WE need to build an alternative...nobody can do it for us!

[Danger Mouse]

26. what is our alternative, then?

cause i have no friggin clue.

[lvx35]

28. We have to find a way to stop giving all our money to corporations.

I mean, we actually have to stop funding them ourselves...We need to make co-operatives, collectives, something, anything! Or we need to just start toning it down, define the terms of a progressive business, and only patronize those businesses.

[Danger Mouse]

31. it's feasible for those of us who are willing to give up the opium...

but will the majority of americans be as willing?

[lvx35]

39. That's the tough part, no doubt. But I think there's hope:

I mean, humans just like us moved out of the dark ages, and left theocracy and monarchy behind for this better system, and its not unreasonable to think there there is a better system than this waiting in the wings, but we just need to find it.

[Danger Mouse]

41. generally, a period of enlgithement or progress follows a catastrophe or dark age...

i'd say in some ways, we're in a dark age...

[lvx35]

42. I'd say in many ways you're right. I can't wait for the dawn! :) nt

[Danger Mouse]

46. it's likely to get uglier, and darker, before we see any light.

[dysfunctional press]

85. evolution is the ONLY solution... and history is proof of that.

oops- i forgot the "R".

[HCE SuiGeneris]

33. Someday I would like to shake your hand

and sponsor you for drinks of your choice for the evening. Thank you for expressing my sentiments so clearly!

[Danger Mouse]

35. if ever you are in or near nyc, mcsorley's is a great place to gat a drink or twelve.

:pals:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

37. I have my spot in the OC, no plastic people, just good food and fun.

It's a date should the occasion arise. :pals:

[Danger Mouse]

40. well, circumstances are likely to have me moving to CO at some point...

and i'll definitely want to visit california someday...there's many a west-coast du'er i'd like to see, too!

[L. Coyote]

34. You found the formula for electing an R President!

Don't confuse Bush's unpopularity and R corruption with the idea that the USA is in a progressive mood. If the Dem candidate is too far left, the Rs will win 2008.

[Danger Mouse]

36. then what's the point?

meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

47. Evidence of this?

[The Traveler]

38. Hi Elrond

Glad to see you are still on target ...

[Danger Mouse]

44. hi traveler...

i am trying my best to remember you...are you a frequent denizen of the religion/theology forum?
:hi:

[The Traveler]

56. Not frequent

I do sometimes get sucked into the discussion there. The Lounge is where we met.

[Danger Mouse]

130. i am regretful that i am having trouble remembering you

:(
please refresh my memory.

[The Traveler]

151. Don't sweat it, friend

I keep a fairly low profile ... I was one of your "Lounge Loser" buds. But there were several hundred of us, it seemed. :)

[Danger Mouse]

153. i think if i add you to my buddy list...

it'll help my future recollections of you.
good people are worth remembering
:hi:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. The politicians are the middle-men for the corporations.

51 of the top economies in the world are corporations.

Is there anyone that doubts that they control the economy of the United States and most of the nations of the rest of the world?

They decide who is to work, who is to starve, who is to be healthy, who is to live, who is to die.

No, not some vast, dark, conspiracy. Just a fact of life that we ignore at our peril. The corporations have to expand or perish. So, they do whatever is necessary to keep the profit margins pouring in.

If you have a job, you have to either give up wages, benefits, job security, or they will "outsource", "restructure", or "merge".

The politicians are in their thrall, not just because of campaign "contributions" (aka - bribes), but because they have to answer to the electorate in their districts or states. If they don't appease the corporations, they threaten to move to other states, or other countries. No tax breaks in California, they'll move to Louisiana. Not enough there, they'll move to Mexico or Guatemala.

No money in malaria, HIV meds, in Africa? They'll produce cosmetics or chemical weapons.

They are the bosses that the politicians answer to. The people, all over the world, are the disposable pawns in the grand game of the corporations vying against each other.

[Danger Mouse]

132. it's not conspiracy, it's reality.

it is the world in which we live.

[Hawkowl]

51. Down with corporate whores!!!

Grab your pitchforks and storm the castle!

[Danger Mouse]

52. a kick as i go to bed...

:grouphug:

[barbtries]

53. terrific

i agree.

[Danger Mouse]

54. thank you

:pals:

[conspirator]

55. A president dedicated to fighting the oligarchy is a dead man. Unless

he doesn't appear in public.

[Orsino]

58. "It's the money, stupid."

The money guarantees that our representatives represent dollars, not people. We've developed a parallel electoral process, in which the votes that really count are the corporate dollars which determine who gets on a ballot and who gets favorable coverage. Ban the money, and the politicians will work for us again.

[ananda]

59. MRSA II

It's the Mememe Right Staph America infection.

[mmonk]

60. Great post at the heart of the matter.

[mod mom]

61. It is the actions of corporatism that lead to terrorism. Think about big oils quest for

foreign petroleum. (or why is our oil underneath their land)

[Vilis Veritas]

62. We need to strip corporations of the rights of person hood. nt

[Danger Mouse]

156. agreed. that gave rise to the robber barons...

which Teddy Roosevelt defeated initially, but not permanantly

[Auggie]

63. And that's THE REASON I'm not voting for Hillary Clinton

[Danger Mouse]

124. same here.

[PassingFair]

66. We HAD our chance with Howard Dean.

I still feel sick when I think of how close we came.

:cry:

[Danger Mouse]

123. look at how dean is now. he's all...well...domesticated...

seems to have forgotten that his fire and passion is what attracted us to him in the first place.
the media slaughtered him, though, and the public drank the kool aid.
all hail the corporation almighty, none may question them.

[PassingFair]

159. I think he is doing everything he can WHERE he can.

We will see what he does after this cycle.
He works tirelessly for the progressive
movement WITHIN the party.
Only time will tell what measure of success
he has had.

[distantearlywarning]

68. I completely agree.

It's not so much about Dem vs. Rep anymore as it is the little guy (i.e., us) vs. corporate America. And I totally support the concept of refusing to vote for anyone of any stripe, party, creed or whatever who is paid off by the corporate masters.

Kicked and recommended!

[emald]

69. you've hit it on the head

corporations and their corresponding greed have destroyed our society. It is time for a change. NOW.

[rabies1]

74. K&R

Corporations have been in the drivers seat for too long.
That's why I'd like someone like Dennis Kucinich (or Al Gore) to be elected.

[Arugula Latte]

75. This is why the prospect of a Hillary Clinton presidency is so dispiriting.

It'll be more of the same.

[WinkyDink]

78. ITA. And she is not really making any bones about it. Cf, her "health-care" ideas.

[Danger Mouse]

138. she's certainly got plenty of people fooled.

she is just as beholden to the corporations as bush and cheney. her presidency would be magnitudes better than bush, but she would do little or nothing to put a stop to corporate domination.

[Danger Mouse]

136. The classic line from the Who applies so well:

'Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.'

[Individualist]

76. K&R

[WinkyDink]

77. And corporations wanting to put RFID chips in the products we take HOME.

Read the last point under "The Implementation":
http://www-03.ibm.com/industries/retail/doc/content/solution/1040471201.html?pword=rfid_products&tactic=6n7ag07w&cc=us

[sagetea]

79. What is the purpose?

I keep trying to understand how much money a person or corporation can possibly have. I honestly can't fathom how a person or group of persons can be so unbelievably greedy, as to destroy local, national, and global communities. Is it for a purpose that we can not possibly understand? They are willing to destroy the only planet that so far is capable of hosting life, for what? If all the so called "power" they get, they will die, and it will be carried on to their future generations, but it will eventually fade as the Earth dies, all of their money and power will not serve a purpose. Whatever I still don't get it.I can't even put it into words exactly how this makes me feel.

[codjh9]

89. Exactly. The Wal-Mart family has 20+ billion EACH, so why did they feel the need

to expand into Germany, S. Korea, etc.? How many BILLIONS DO YOU NEED? This is the part I never understand about capitalism. Some people get rich beyond their wildest dreams, but never stop. Not all corporations do that, but most do (never stop trying to get bigger).

[Danger Mouse]

109. They don't care. That's what frightens me.

They only care about money and power. To hell with the consequences.

[codjh9]

80. This isn't news, but you're right. They're greedy, they're not adults, really, and

we as a nation, and world, absolutely MUST quit making all the big decisions based on MONEY, because the economy, education, healthcare, Social Security, Iraq, nor anything else will matter if we keep soiling our own nest. The slogan 'it's the economy, stupid' was all wrong - 'it's the WORLD, stupid'.

[femrap]

83. k and r

The corporations are the root of this evil.

[BrainGlutton]

84. Nitpick: In political science, "corporatism" does not mean a state dominated by corporate/business

interests. It means something quite different. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

"Historically, corporatism or corporativism (Italian: corporativismo) refers to a political or economic system in which power is given to civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, social, cultural, and professional groups. These civic assemblies, known as corporations (not necessarily the business model known as a 'corporation' though such businesses are not excluded from the definition either). Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy; their purpose is to exert control over the social and economic life of their respective areas. Thus, for example, a steel corporation would be a cartel composed of all the business leaders in the steel industry, coming together to discuss a common policy on prices and wages. When the political and economic power of a country rests in the hands of such groups, then a corporatist system is in place."

[Evoman]

87. Yeah, and if we got rid of the corporations, people would whine about how hard life is and how hard

it is to find stuff to buy.

We dug this fucking hole. Every time you buy a useless piece of Chinese (or American, for that matter) crap, your putting your shovel back in the hole.

The corporations are literally us.

[Danger Mouse]

129. people can whine for all i care.

some people desire their enslavement. i do not. inconvenience is better than being bought and sold by corporate masters.

[flashl]

88. The snakepit: Government = contractors = corporations = Government

Government=Contractors

What the War on Terror has shown is the extent to which private contractors have become part and parcel of Pentagon operations. Where once contracts went to build ships, planes, tanks and missiles, today the majority of contract dollars buy services—the time of people—and information technology. Increasingly the private workforce works alongside officials, in Pentagon meeting rooms as well as on Iraqi battlefields, performing what citizens consider the stuff of government: planning, policy writing, budgeting, intelligence gathering, nation building.

For insiders in the corridors of the Pentagon, the pervasive role of contractors in the replacement of civil servants is a given. Government Executive reports that the Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness—the senior official responsible for the official workforce "acknowledges that he often attends meetings in which he is the only civil servant in a room full of contractors."

Get the picture? What we CALL Government is actually a workforce of contractors! Missing in the above article is the number of Congressional staffers on the payroll of Corporate America.

[ideagarden]

91. And who might NOT be a corporate toady?

I'll answer for you none of them. Thats right... Obama get $$$ from hedge fundies Clinton got money (lots of it, more than BUSH???!!!) from the weapons industry. As for the other less popular (geeze thats what it comes down too... so sad :( ) candidates, how can they rise up and further inspire and spread truth?

The strings as you call them are the ideas entrenched in each of us. As well as our own share of not backing bad cooperation (if we can), there is also bad idea stemming back to Felix Rohatyn (Wiki like has a link to EIR which tells the true story). If you trace back those people and those ideas further what do we get? Banking class systems and big govt. contracts for wars.

Back to FDR, back to smashing the robber bankers (errr or did I mean barons?) . We call all start by boycotting cooperate trash media. Staying away from Rupert's toilet and lap. We can do this if we band together and reach out. Spread the word about zeitgeist and AFTF free movies on google.

[Virginia Dare]

99. We can't count on any politicians to change the system for us..

that's a definite. About the only power we have to change the system is the power of the purse strings, and I'm not sure how much longer we'll have that.

[Danger Mouse]

128. gradually the corporate overlords gain control of EVERYTHING.

time is running out for america.

[BB1]

92. he/she would get shot within a New York-second.

seriously. I suspect the CIA of whacking politicians in Europe for over three decades. Big money will shoot the first caring President right in the back of the head.

What will you do? Live in a forest, near a little river? Hunt and fish? Eat berries?
Some of you will, I'm sure. Some of you got that old pioneer-spirit, the 'Go West-mentality' which is needed to make it out there without all the convenient crap US households are infested with.
Seriously, who needs an automatic can opener? Can't do it yourself, whiner?

When we, Europeans and such, take a good look at what the land of the free has become, we almost burst out laughing if it wasn't that serious.
Land of the free? No shit. You're free to have your house searched at any time, you're free to pay for a bloody stupid war. You think you're free to choose a president.
Home of the brave? Brave people stand up against racism, gaycism, genocidism... Brave people eventually take matters in their own hands, but couch-potatoes wonder why nobody stands up.

There might be only one solution: take back your country by force. There are millions and millions of sympathisers who will help you fight the White House. In fact, they've been at it for years. Open your eyes - The US Government has been waging war on you and your allies for decades, but only those perky moslims seem to be doing something about it.

[ideagarden]

94. somehow...

Somehow the "other" side managed to get people inside the system. How many insiders does it take to not go down like a pile of stones in a lake if you were to advocate change? It also seems the other side waged their war slowly, slowly, slowly... is the only way. A early post: "Stop buying useless crap" Stop watching commercials, use a small bank not a big bank, keep things local. Our federalist system is way off balance. If it tips we might have Queen Hillary, then King Jeb Bush, then Queen Daughter Clinton ad absurdium.

Method:

BACK to FDR

BACK to a physical economy

BACK to buying local

BACK to "the garden state" mentality, where kids can see things grow

BACK to the Constitution

FORM a economic war avoidance pack between the people of this country and the other powerfully nations

STOP being numb to the world

START to emote, empathize, and create principles of social science & physical science that reach beyond the Dark Age we find ourselves heading

[Danger Mouse]

126. if that did happen...

it might be the last nail in the coffin of america as the founding fathers envisioned it....

[natrat]

93. america is being raped so badly-these pelosi ried clinton types amplify the problem

[Danger Mouse]

107. bush has done such an incredible amount of damage to the middle class and the poor...

it's amazing that there are still folk out there stupid enough to support him.

[Stainless]

95. Corporatism and Fascism.......

go hand-in-hand according to the definition of fascism given by Mussolini in the 1930's. American fascism has developed and thrived under the current Administration and I believe it is too late to change things. Democrats and Republicans are all beholden to corporate thugs.

[Virginia Dare]

97. What's the definition of corporatism?

look it up.

[Virginia Dare]

96. You are mis-using the word corporatism...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

But yeah, I agree with you in principle that corporations have too much power in our system of government. They always have though. It's just gotten a lot worse since the industrial age started. Now that it's ending maybe things will change.

[ideagarden]

100. wiki sucks

You don't suck, but it is open source ideas. Which to me = lack of scientific / discovery principles. Remember The definition you quoted has the word REPRESENT in it. You are not represented if adds get shoved down your throat or the gvt. decides to give no-bid contracts. That a corporate republic or corporate fascism.

[Virginia Dare]

101. Well, look it up in Websters..

or whatever source you trust. Just a small pet peeve of mine that people don't use that word in it's correct form. I'll stop nannying it now though, because it's like a salmon swimming up stream in spawning season around here. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Danger Mouse]

108. Oops, my bad.

I'll refrain from using it in the future.
Thanks for the correction.

[Mark D.]

102. YES. But There's More...

It is Corporatism, which is another word for Fascism. Yes, the corporate folks are pulling
the strings of the political powers that be via lobbyist money. But there is more. Go one
step up. Who pulls corporate strings. What do they do it all for? Money. As NIN's Trent
Reznor said: "God money". It's their God. Mammon. They abandon the real God & then
equip the right-wing loonies to lecture to fundamentalists as if they are on their
side. Pointing how Jesus was anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-war and all these things
that He never said or was. Brushing off 90% of what he said. Charity and peace.

But the followers of the right wing religious manipulators are either easily-led simps
or the bunch of self-centered folks who use their 'faith' or the fact that they're good
fathers to the too many kids they have and drive around in an SUV with a Bush sticker
on the back to say: "See I'm really nice" when they are not. Charity is NOT cleaning up
the mess you made (ie. having kids, which you're supposed to take care of & shouldn't
go near double digits in numbers.) That is when you care for more than just your own.
I'm not anti-kid or anything. I'm just making a point. And this alludes to how an idea
like smaller family size, just suggested in America especially will incite a riot, though
it's what we need to consider, since overpopulation is a major worldwide problem.

Christ made a choice when faced by the reptile in the desert to say no. But others did not.
Those others through the centuries have hoarded capital and issued currency and created a
debt America and most of the world can't escape. Their resilience to control everything was
because they were offered the choice, to follow (money) and control the world, & they do.
In exchange for their soul. They have none. That's why they are the purest of sociopaths.
Like the song says. "Head Like A Hole, black is your soul". Empty, nothing in there, and
a hole is never filled. It's not enough they control trillions of dollars and two thirds of all
people on Earth. They want 100% of the people & power, there is no end to their desire.

Before my Atheist/Agnostic friends have a cow, much of what I say can be taken, if you
choose to, as analogy or metaphor. Many choose greed, many choose to be kind. But lots
of folks just seem that way from birth. The crybaby who wants everything grows up to
be a right wing self-centered bastard. And the generous kid, a pacifist liberal maybe.
These are endemic in some if not most of us. It's just biology, but you sometimes
wonder about it. Why it's so pervasive, why those who grow up in the same house,
same circumstance are vastly different. Like some have found in studies on this.

End timers and Bush-like fake conservative, corporate liberal, false prophets only do the
bidding to distort what the message was originally intended for. They work for them. That's
the Bilderburg's mission and many others for that distinct few. Money really is the root of
all evil. It's what corporations work for. It's who they work for, that is what started every
major war in history, it's what killed 3 Roman Emperors who stood up to money changers &
every president that died by an assassin's bullet (they either fought money changers...ie. a
World Bank/Federal Reserve system, or spoke out against it, the last being John Kennedy.)

Yes, Lincoln too. They hired Booth. They tried to kill Andrew Jackson & failed. They were
were angry he paid off the entire US debt (imagine doing it now) providing currency based
on no debt, issued by the govt., to replace 'privatized' bankers debt currency. It lasted
over 70 years, the results of what he did. Who will fight for that today...which Democrat
candidate is the only one to mention holding the Federal Reserve to more oversight & just
plain responsible. Dennis Kucinich. Remember when Clinton paid down the debt, just a little
as the deficit went away. Who was the one who said it is not a good idea to cut it too fast.
Greenspan. Who'd he work for? The Federal Reserve. No more 'federal' than Federal Express.

Oh. And I'm not making this stuff up or alone and it's not tinfoil hats. Go to Google Video.
Search for the full version of "The Money Masters" and then "Zeitgeist"; part three of that.
I too loathe corporations having more power vs. people. Not only de-unionizing America as it
de-industrializes it, but selling 'unions are bad' to the very people that benefit from the
fact that they existed. Calling those who want worker's rights pinko / un-American while a
wrath of never-enlisted, draft dodgers are patriots. The list just goes on and on. But in
recent times I looked beyond the corporations, and we all know what drives them. We know
what oil sells for (not the price-the currency). It's all money. Control it, and you control all.

[ideagarden]

118. read the above

nicely put. I'll be watching The Money Masters later tonight :) And I might have to go back to Zeitgeist for a second helping. Above, when I post I was thinking JFK also... hmmm perhaps fear kept me from saying it. Shame on me.

[RebelSansCause]

103. very well put

the kind of thing i have been wanting to say for a long time. you have more guts than i do, and you didn't even mention HRC. that was a good move, i would have said her and gotten flamed down. yay flames. i need a fire retardant suit in my opinion. but good for you. recommending. :yourock:

[Danger Mouse]

105. I do not support HRC for that very reason...

but I stayed away from discussing her because I didn't want to start a flamewar.
Welcome to DU :hi:

[datavg]

142. datavg...

...stands at attention with fire extinguisher...

[Danger Mouse]

104. wow...made it to the front page...

my first time. :hi: :D

[The Backlash Cometh]

106. Government has been taken over by business organizations.

Rotary Clubs, Chamber of Commerce. You name it. It's rotten from the roots on up.

[Froward69]

110. I am sick of it too

Thats why I am pulling For the most hated by the corporatist/fascists! Biden will Do for all of America more than any other. I trust him 100%

[Danger Mouse]

112. You think so?

I'd like to hear more.

[Froward69]

114. Sure here take a look

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3642118

Kick it as high as this one... :patriot::kick: :patriot:

[BelgianMadCow]

115. I have to check in. Glad to see I can still reccommend

[Fly by night]

117. Gore/Richardson '08. Strengthened in the hayfields of youth, civilized by Indian people

That's the ticket!!

[Danger Mouse]

125. love gore, but unfamiliar on richardson...

what does he have to offer? :hi:

[Fly by night]

144. "civilized by Indian people" is how Richardson describes his getting of political wisdom

He has by far the most extensive and varied resume of any candidate on either side of the aisle -- Congressman, Cabinet secretary of multiple departments (simultaneously), UN ambassador, world hot-spot negotiator, Governor.

He would also be the first Hispanic candidate for VP ever, probably bringing us votes in key western, southwestern and midwestern states.

He has done a good job in New Mexico on a series of fronts, two of which mean much to me. He helped lead the effort to replace paperless DREs statewide with a paper ballot-based opscan system that has reduced apparent "undervotes" by 85% in minority communities.

And he singlehandedly refused to let the legislature kill that state's medical marijuana bill this year, resulting in New Mexico becoming the 13th state to legalize medical marijuana. Their program is unique in that it includes a provision that the state will produce and distribute cannabis to patients in need so that cannabis will be available as soon as patients need it, not 5-7 months after their diagnosis (which is how long it would take patients or their caregivers to grow useful cannabis for themselves.)

I like that provision for a number of reasons, including the fact that it was my idea.

He also wants us out of Iraq yesterday. 'Nuff said.

[Danger Mouse]

155. other than his 'being gay is a choice' gaffe...

he does look pretty good.

[cosmicdot]

119. knr n/t

[lovuian]

120. Agree its a virus eating the host

till theres nothing more

[Danger Mouse]

122. in the end...

there will be nothing left of what was once the middle class.

[ideagarden]

146. recent polls

Wasn't there a study recenty about how the income gap has grow to 1920's levels? Perhaps we should invite the British East Indian Company back to America to remind us of what we tried to escape so long ago. Each of us has to power to invest in physical economics. Each of us also has a choice to NOT work for a back assed corperation and insteadt for a COOPeration.

[datavg]

131. Look...

...I hear ya, but it's always been this way.

This was a corporation before it was a country. That's a historical fact.

The idea is to get us back where we were in the 1950s and 1960s, when the corporate types owned the companies and the people owned their jobs. We had it and it worked. We can have it again.

Part of this lies in having a solid manufacturing base again. We need to be actually making things people want to buy, instead of trying to support ourselves with services and engaging in financial engineering. There is absolutely no reason why we should have to engage in mass importation of automobiles in the United States of America. No reason. Look at some old movies or even old television shows dating as recently as the late Seventies. EVERYONE drove American! We bought them, drove them and we were happy. My grandfather had a 1963 Chevy Impala that I would give anything to have today. My other grandfather had a 1975 Pontiac Bonneville that was so solid you could have used it as a tank. The oil shock of the 1970s had something to do with our change in tastes and there was the whole Ralph Nader safety thing of the mid 1960s but the big issue was the Detroit auto companies suddenly being run by accountants instead of engineers. That's changing for the better and even Daniel Howes of The Detroit News says 80 percent of the per car cost gap between General Motors and their Asian competitors is gone in the new contract. SO...ok, General Motors got what it wanted and a lot of people aren't happy about that...but it also means there's now NO EXCUSE for our stuff not being as good or better than their stuff PLUS we have the upper hand in terms of currency valuation.

The best social program in the world is a good job in a value added economy where government doesn't spend more than it takes in. Bill Clinton knew it. Lyndon Johnson knew it but we had other problems at the time. Jack Kennedy knew it better than anyone.

We just have to get back to it. We know what we have to do. So, let's do it!

I'm 42 years old. My wife and I are IT professionals in Southern California but we remember what America was like 25-30 years ago in the midwest and we want it back. A lot of people do, and the first candidate who finally figures this out isn't gonna be President. He's gonna be King.

[Danger Mouse]

134. it's not a matter of aboshing corporation so much as breaking their infleunce

and giving people back their rights as workers.
the auto industy is in a shambles as a result of their own stupidity. they stubbornly refuse to go with stricter emissions and efficiency standards, standards upheld by most other countries, including china...you won't sell america cars overseas if you can't meet their standards.
living in the past and shoving your head in the sand will only hasten your destruction.

[datavg]

141. My Question Would Be...

...okay, so how did we do this years ago and have so much success?

What did we do then that we aren't doing now?

My first reaction is that too many Americans are living beyond their means. It's not that our savings rate is low...it's nonexistent. We need to save more and consume less. I'm told the phrase "plant and equipment" with reference to the discussion of economics has virtually disappeared from college level textbooks. True economic growth isn't fed by some rich Baby Boomer asshole who made a one time killing in the stock market buying two or three big screen televisions that are imported from China or Taiwan or Japan. It's fed by our ability to design and manufacture and distribute those televisions and sell them to everyone...here and around the world. That means Joe on the assembly line got a piece of it and Joe in the office did, too.

This isn't rocket science, folks.

The reason we've had global trade for so many years lies with a gentleman named Cordell Hull, who was Secretary of State during the Roosevelt administration. Those guys looked at the numbers of dead and injured and the overall cost of World War II and said we're not gonna have resource wars any more. These are also the same people who spoiled the living, breathing shit out of their suburban Baby Boomer children (for the same reasons) to the point where that generation has fucked up our country so badly I don't know if we'll ever get it back!

They came up with the idea that you don't fight wars with trading partners...and that was the beginning of free trade. That's how the Japanese got the technology to manufacture automobiles. We gave it to them. Iacocca talks about this incessantly because he was there. He saw it.

It's how the Germans took over the optics business. It's also how we lost the watch industry.

After all these years, there's not much left, and to add insult to injury we're borrowing those people's money to keep the lights on. And it was our goddamn money to begin with!

It's WRONG and I want to stop it.

Americans can stop it. It won't be easy but it can be done.

[ideagarden]

148. So true...

We need to revamp science first. Textbooks are tripe - agreed. Schools are too bussy teaching behavior and not principles, logic, and creativity.

[Danger Mouse]

157. incorrects. schools teach only how to take tests, thanks to no child left behind.

:puke:

[datavg]

164. Sure...

...but that's only half the story. We got No Child Left Behind because too many universities turned out 98 IQ little dingbat bird brain schoolteachers who weren't very bright and didn't have any common sense and who only got into public education because it was (academically speaking) the path of least resistance.

That's not gonna set well with everyone here, but it's the truth. I've known these people in college. I've actually seen it.

One of the educators' arguments is that only people like them who aren't 130 IQ and above and who aren't Type A personalities will (1) show up to do the job and (2) put up with the working conditions and the low pay. I say to hell with all of that. If we have to fix the system with more money or even limited privatization, then we'll do it...but I will NEVER condone some of the stuff I saw as a kid attending even a suburban public school. I had many truly good teachers, and I had some bad ones. Most of the time, even the good ones weren't people I would trust behind the yoke of an airplane with me because they simply don't think quickly. I don't know the reason for that, but I know it's true. Most of the pilots I knew years ago and even today were pharmacists (tons of those), doctors, lawyers, engineers...and no schoolteachers.

One of the smartest and funniest CFIs I know is a telecom engineer during the week in the Bay Area and an instructor on the weekends. He was talking about green students walking into Cessna wings and getting a cut from the edge of the flaps...called it a Cessna tattoo with that Scottish accent. I laughed so hard I almost died.

[datavg]

173. That Sounds Like...

...what the Democrats have been telling Americans for the last several national election cycles. Most of the time, it results in defeat.

Do you want to win or not? How many Alitos and Robertses will you tolerate on the Supreme Court? Will you wait until all the justices are like them? We're on that road, you know.

[Trillo]

167. NOT quite a LIE -- or -- it helped gel the AMERICAN REVOLUTION

"This was a corporation before it was a country. That's a historical fact."

And after the American Revolution and prior to the civil war the following conditions were enforced by law on corporations, bolding added by me (though it is somewhat arbitrary, they're all important):

• Corporate charters (licenses to exist) were granted for a limited time and could be revoked promptly for violating laws.


• Corporations could engage only in activities necessary to fulfill their chartered purpose.


• Corporations could not own stock in other corporations nor own any property that was not essential to fulfilling their chartered purpose.


• Corporations were often terminated if they exceeded their authority or caused public harm.


• Owners and managers were responsible for criminal acts committed on the job.


• Corporations could not make any political or charitable contributions nor spend money to influence law-making.

Much more at: http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/history_corporations_us.html

"The idea is to get us back where we were in the 1950s and 1960s, when the corporate types owned the companies and the people owned their jobs. We had it and it worked. We can have it again."

Forget the 1950s, with the exception of slavery, what we had pre-Civil War seemed to work much better, that was the legacy of our forefathers that wrote the constitution and who fought the British corporations. After the railroad decisions of the 1800s, those decisions essentially gave birth again to the corporatist beast that has again enslaved all of us, and we buy our freedom each and every day with our disposable dollars. Don't have any disposable dollars? Then you can't purchase your freedom today.

Many of us would prefer to see the power of today's corporation put back into the perspective of a psychopathic entity that needs a straight jacket lest it ruin every last one of the children before its insatiable psychopathic greed extincts every last one of us.

And if we can't have that, then create a legal way for us to opt out of the economic system and to thrive as our far-back ancestors did prior to the advent of moneyed civilization.

[HuskiesHowls]

133. As Eisenhower warned "....the military-industrial complex..."

And one reason ALL the Republican candidates scare me...they are ALL for STRENGTHENING OUR MILITARY. The one chant that they all share. The Democratic candidates don't come out quite so strongly for increasing the size and strength of the military.
It IS one thing to be very, VERY afraid of. The best stock in my 401-K retirement is Boeing....and NOT because they're making passenger aircraft. It only took off in the last 5 years...and gee, I wonder what's been going on for the last 5 years!! :sarcasm:

I've heard, but haven't checked, that after WWII, the average CEO pay was 12 (yes, that's correct-twelve) times the average worker's pay. Now you have to keep adding zeros after that, at least 3 of them.

I feel it goes back to at least Ronnie Ray-gun, if not to Nixon, (although he DID do some good things for the little people) the attitude of 'Me First, and Screw You'. Carter and Clinton both tried to bring people together...but the attitude has become a cultural problem. I have some ideas how it will get turned around (but this isn't the place to discuss those), but I know it can't continue this way.

All I can do is hope and pray that my grandkids find wealthy partners, and know how to keep their heads low!!!

[Danger Mouse]

135. It was Reagan who began the evil, and Bush Jr. that intensified it.

Nixon was no prize, but Reagan was pure vileness.
Bush is just the slimy icing on the fetid cake.
Eisenhower was damn right...he was one of the good republicans. We ignored him, at our own peril. The military-industrial complex, and now, the prison-industrial complex, have dominated our society.

[merkins]

140. K&R

Elrond Hubbard Knocks One Out Of The BallPark ... thank you!

[lyonspotter]

145. There Isn't Much Time

http://youtube.com/watch?v=t8xufsr2log

[bridgit]

147. weeeee!

[Danger Mouse]

152. awww shit, i'm gonna get stoooomped.

:cry:

[arikara]

149. One more K&R

Wakeup call!

[C_U_L8R]

150. greedy violent people

who will do ANYTHING to possess more power.

they must be defeated again and again and again

[Danger Mouse]

154. until they themselves are defeated, they will not go away.

bush and cheney are only symptoms of the disease.

[saracat]

158. Absolutely right on and why Hillary should NOT ever be president!

[Mark D.]

161. Beyond Our Means

I respect those who say this and it's true. We could live with less 'stuff' and 'bling' and gadgets.
We could live more simply. Here is the catch. The buying power of the average American wend down
as well as the need for more 'stuff' going up. In other words, even if we didn't want 'stuff' we would
not be that much better off. Just one example. Customer Service jobs that once paid $15 per hour in
the days when many were union jobs and the people were actually considered valuable to companies...

These days, those permanent jobs largely were changed to benefit-free, pension-free, significance as
a human free 'temp' jobs, offered by bottom feeders (temp agencies.) Get this. When they put them
in your local paper, they are $8-$10 per hour. With exclamation points, like you're supposed to be so
happy that they offer that much. So many call centers 'temped out' or gone to the far east. And I
am comparing it to what they paid in the late 80s/early 90s, during a so-called 'recession' then.

Another thing. Inflation has been 'low' since then. 'Only' 4%. Right. Per year. What does it mean?
4 time 15 (being conservative, not counting for it 'compounding' as it goes up) means it is at the
very least, 60% more expensive to live now than it was then. Jobs paying $10 instead of $15 for
lots of folks. Mill workers going from $20 to $10. It's 2/3 more expensive to live on 1/3 to one half
less income. SO YOU SIMPLY CANNON SUSTAIN A MIDDLE CLASS WITH THIS KIND OF SYSTEM.

Now Bush, defending 'trade' and it's resulting outsourcing he had folks call 'good for us' (and in
what way? America is still waiting for an answer). Saying we have to 'educate ourselves up' to
get a better job. I know too many who go to school for a trade and by the time they graduate,
it's the latest in the jobs to be exported or given away for peanut pay...thanks to those Visas.

Teach a man to fish, and put him out in a lake with no fish in it. Then blame him for it and
he's so weak he can't even paddle back to the shore. Blame him again. It's not a priority &
we who complain are annoyances to be dispatched by calling us unpatriotic or looking for a
handout when we just want jobs we can pay the same bills with we used to be able to pay.

But they outnumber us. Owned News Networks with talking dickheads like Hannity ready to
gloat their wealth and how nothing's a problem unless it's a problem to them. The good
old days they clamor about are not when a man can earn enough for a middle class family
of four by himself, in one job. And health insurance was affordable. It's when blacks &
whites lived apart. Women obeyed men, died trying to abort 'the man's' baby, gays were
in the closet or beaten to death and alter boys were 'perfectly ok' around that priest.

We do have a lot we can do. We can do more locally, agriculture, small businesses. But all
of them suffer. Codex Alamentarus, GMOs, Corporate farms-the greatest welfare recipients
in the America. The taking away of help for small entrepreneurs to divert it up to those in
power with lobbyist money. Deregulation to kills us off in other ways with legal dumping &
poisoning, especially if you live in certain (poor, minority) areas. It's easy to just say we
can rise up, and you can bet I am trying to. But when the wall gets harder to climb, and
you break your bones trying, what's left? It does take change at the top to fix this also.

[Duppers]

165. I know you'll like this. Carlin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj2iVgx_VS4&NR=1

[ConsAreLiars]

166. Vote Carlin '08

Thanks for the video. If any one of the Dems would have the guts and integrity to speak as clearly and honestly as Carlin s/he would win in a landslide.

[lonestarnot]

171. It's the fucking staff. Staph... stuff.

[weblatters]

174. Put down the pipe

Do you want communal living then?

Fine... go to communist China.
That's what your asking for here.

But I got news for you, it's corrupt too!

[Blue_Tires]

176. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in....

yeah, yeah, yeah....

kick!