BREAKING NEWS. Turkey just shelled inside Iraq according to C-SPan

[ChairmanAgnostic]

this could be extremely bad, or simply a response to the 14 killed yesterday.

The US really needs to step up, but the tarnish covering Condi and the diplomatic process in State is pretty crusty and deep.

[spanone]

1. ah, the bu$h* peace plan is right on target

:sarcasm:

[Ganja Ninja]

2. That's been going on for a few weeks now. n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

4. inside the iraqi border?

My info was that the turks were patrolling guerilla elements inside turkey, and did not cross the border yet. this seems to be an escalation. Please tell me more about previous incursions and attacks inside Iraq territory.

[Ganja Ninja]

14. Here you go

10/21/07 Turks shell Kurdish border region after 12 soldiers killed in ambush
http://www.dailynews.com/ci_7243633

10/15/07 PKK threatens bitter fight as Turks shell northern Iraq
http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidDS151007_dsart12

10/11/07 Turks shell Kurds in Iraq
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/national/20071011_Turks_shell_Kurds_in_Iraq.html

06/05/07 Turks shell rebels in northern Iraq again, says Kurdish report
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2007/06/05/2003363872

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. mighty sentinetal of you, and thanks.

I sit corrected.

[Breeze54]

3. This shelling was in retaliation for the 14 turks killed

according to CBS, NBC, & ABC Morning News

[DaveJ]

11. And the perpetrators

They retreated to one of the few peaceful provinces in Iraq. Is that correct? Now * is pissed because he is the only one allowed to bomb other countries.

[Rockholm]

5. BushCo's WWW3 starts right on cue.

Martial law to follow with the corrupt bush regime staying in power. Maybe then all the anti-Hillary and anti-Obama threads will stop.

[Breeze54]

12. and the anti-Kucinich, anti-Dodd, anti-Biden, Anti-Gravel.....

right??

This is an election year and you should expect debate and differing opinions.

[Rockholm]

26. In case you haven't been paying attention,

there are few (like zero) anti-Dodd threads, same with Gravel with a smattering of anti-Biden ones (where was Richardson in your admonishment) and a fair fair number of pro and anti Dennis threads.
Debate and differing opinions are what democracy is about. The crap that is posted is, IMHO, nothing more than psych-ops by particular political camps and FReepy disruptors.

[Botany]

6. Our top guy quit because he had no support

http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-10-09-voa63.cfm

Compiled from 2 sources.

I just heard on the CBS Evening news that our top envoy in the
Turkey v Kurd conflict quit saying that the bush admin. did not live up
to it's word. Retired U.S. Air Force General Joseph Ralston has submitted
his letter of resignation to Condi Rice because he had promised to
the Turks that we and "loyal Iraqi troops" would keep the Kurds in
check but it turns out we are powerless to do anything. So rather than
play the fool he quit.



< Monday's U.S. statement called on Iraqi authorities to take effective measures against the PKK,
and said that the United States stands ready in every appropriate way to support efforts by
Turkey and Iraq to protect their citizens and stop terrorist violence.

In a reflection of the importance it attaches to the issue, the Bush administration in 2006 named
retired U.S. Air Force General Joseph Ralston, a former supreme commander of NATO, as a special
envoy for countering the PKK.

Spokesman McCormack confirmed reports that Ralston has submitted a letter of resignation
to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, but would not address questions about the reasons
for his departure from the unpaid position.

He said he did not know if Ralston would be replaced. >

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. his word was not supported by Condi, ergo,

his slot can be kept empty. no need for an honest broker. Not with Condi and Cheney doing their nasty.

[Lasher]

7. Here's a thread about it in LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3041103&mesg_id=3041104

[ThomWV]

9. Who were they shooting at, US troops or Kurds?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

10. Kurds. we have no presence there.

so our promises to keep a leash on the kurds was pretty worthless.

of course, we are also supporting kurdish elements in their invasion and attacks inside Iran, and who is to say that those guns are not being used against Turkey as well?

[Botany]

13. Turks and Kurds not getting along?

Who could have seen this coming? Kinda like Shi v Sunni problems.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

18. stop, before I laugh meself to death.

yeah, who could have imagined, to parrot-phrase the worst national security advisor and the worst sec.state in our history?

[bdamomma]

15. yea, the * regime will step up to do this.

read this from Raw Story

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22636940-663,00.html

Bush offers to bomb Kurds

hs is a very sick man, how much more proof does the Congress need?? apparently they are more concerned about Reps who voice their true opinions.

[mmonk]

27. Yes. The Kurds were set for betrayal awhile ago.

Their usefulness ran out for the overall design.

[no_hypocrisy]

16. Gee, imagine what Turkey WOULD'VE done if the Armenian genocide vote went down.

[Junkdrawer]

17. Q: Will Dubya use this "precedent" to justify cross border raids in Iran?

:shrug:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

19. probably not,because those are our trained insurgents invading iran already.

[Junkdrawer]

23. I was thinking more that, if the International Community accepts this raid...

as "justified", then Dubya could argue that an Iranian cross-border raid is "justified".

I'm aware that the PKK is used by the US and Israel to do raids in Iran and Syria.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. damn you. ruin my day, why don't you? Hadn't thought of that.

and despite my best promises, I continue to underestimate the evil that they can do. you hit it right on the head, junk. damn.

[The Stranger]

20. "Bring it on!"

:woohoo:

We're on an express elevator to hell.

[Virginia Dare]

22. Giving war a chance...

:scared: :cry:

[lonestarnot]

24. Stability spreading I see.

[Disturbed]

28. The PKK does not represent all Kurdish people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Turkish_offensive_on_Iraqi_territories_against_Kurdish_rebels

The Busholini Regime cannot condemn Turkey's actions because Turkey is doing what Israel did regarding Lebanon. Turkey won't attack & decimate major cities in Iraq, as Israel did in Lebanon. The strikes will be specific toward PKK strongholds.

[Eurobabe]

29. Bush wants to take out the Kurds now? Political expediency

No wonder no one trusts the US anymore (or at least the govt.)

[Disturbed]

31. Lumping all Kurds in with the PKK is wrong.

The Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) is an armed militant group founded in the 1970s and led, until his capture in 1999, by Abdullah Öcalan.<1> The PKK's ideology was founded on revolutionary Marxism-Leninism and Kurdish nationalism. The PKK's goal has been to create an independent socialist Kurdish state in a territory which it claims as Kurdistan, an area that comprises parts of south-eastern Turkey, north-eastern Iraq, north-eastern Syria and north-western Iran.<2><3> It is an ethnic secessionist organization that uses force and the threat of force against both civilian<4> and military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal.

The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization internationally by a number of states and organizations, including the USA, NATO and the EU.<5><6><7>

[Eurobabe]

33. I wasn't lumping them all together

but many Kurds are still pissed that their land was parceled out, piece to Iraq, piece to Turkey. etc. Many still refer to their land as Kurdistan, even though most of it is encompassed in eastern Turkey.

[KamaAina]

30. Nonsense. What you're hearing is the sound of freedom on the march!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[lovuian]

32. Its happening

this is very sad and WWIII is slowly accelerating

I don't think Bush knows who is friends are???

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AH-IjStfVBs

[seemslikeadream]

34. It's been happening, I knew, you knew, Joe for Clark knew

This is this stuff of nightmares, this is what destroys our dreams of the future, why don't our elected Democrats DO SOMETHING TO STOP THIS MADDNESS?

I think we should be aware - cause it sure seems to be MIA on
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2355978



Turkey bombs suspected Kurdish rebels

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3023126#3023126
3023126, Turkey bombs suspected Kurdish rebels
Posted by shain from kane on Wed Oct-10-07 01:27 PM

Source: Associated Press


By SELCAN HACAOGLU
Associated Press Writer


SIRNAK, Turkey --Turkish warplanes bombed positions of suspected Kurdish rebels Wednesday, and the prime minister said preparations for parliamentary approval of a military mission against separatist fighters in Iraq were under way.

A cross-border operation could hurt Turkey's relationship with the United States, which opposes Turkish intervention in northern Iraq, a region that has escaped the violence afflicting much of the rest of the country.
-----------------------------
Turkey and the United States are NATO allies, but ties have also been tense over a U.S. congressional bill that would label the mass killings of Armenians by Turks around the time of World War I as genocide. President Bush strongly urged Congress to reject the bill, saying it would do "great harm" to U.S.-Turkish relations.
---------------------------------------
Turkish troops blocked rebel escape routes into Iraq while F-16 and F-14 warplanes and Cobra helicopters dropped bombs on possible hideouts, Dogan news agency reported. The military had dispatched tanks to the region to support the operation against the rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, in response to more than a week of deadly attacks in southeastern Turkey.



Read more: http://www.bnd.com/283/story/149436.html





Sibel Edmonds and other Whistleblowers Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=344





Turkish PM clears way for Iraq assault
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2010021&mesg_id=2010021


Ruffling feathers - will Turkey invade northern Iraq?
Posted by seemslikeadream on Tue Oct-09-07 08:52 PM


Ruffling feathers - will Turkey invade northern Iraq?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1608046

Turkey sent 350 special ops forces south into Kurdistan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1544571

This is so pissing me off -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1547409

Turkish Commandos Inside Iraq?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1529843

Novak: Bush considering secret military action in Turkey
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1474571
This is my fourth and last time
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1429288

It is really a little too quiet up north right now -
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1472171

Please- watch the north in Iraq - this is going to blow shortly.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1429138

Turkish PM threatens to invade northern Iraq - 250,000 men in the region
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1393490

Turkish security services in possession of videotapes of weapon deliveries by US military to PKK
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1327965






http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=12870

Ruffling feathers - Will Turkey invade northern Iraq?
Key Points
Turkey's government is under pressure to attack rebel Kurdish bases in Iraq after the ruling party's election victory.

The Turkish military wants to launch an invasion to disrupt the Workers' Party of Kurdistan (Partiya Karkaren Kurdistan: PKK) before it can take advantage of growing disaffection within Turkey's Kurdish population.

The government will have to balance the military's ambitions against its relationship with the US, which will not want northern Iraq's stability harmed by a Turkish invasion.


The Turkish military is preparing for a potential offensive against Kurdish rebel bases in Iraq. Graeme Wood examines the country's options.

Turkey is once again undergoing preparations for a possible invasion of northern Iraq to disrupt the activities of the Workers' Party of Kurdistan (Partiya Karkaren Kurdistan: PKK). On 7 August, Iraqi and Turkish Prime Ministers Nouri al-Maliki and Recep Tayyip Erdogan signed a Memorandum of Understanding to jointly work towards ending the PKK presence in Iraq. The decision followed Turkey's July general election, won by the ruling Justice and Development Party (Adalet ve Kalkinma Partisi: AKP), which saw the opposition parties, the Republican People's Party and the National Action Party, running on nationalist platforms.

Such a cross-border operation against the PKK would not be unprecendented. Turkish soldiers have been fighting the PKK in Iraqi Kurdish regions since the mid-1990s, usually just across the border from Turkey. Every few years the fight against the guerrilla movement reaches a minor crescendo, with the Turkish military weighing the option of swooping into the Kandil mountains to completely destroy the PKK's camps. Four significant incursions were launched in the 1990s and 2001.

So far, Turkish deployments inside Iraq have been modest. Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) Prime Minister Nechirvan Barzani (nephew of KRG President Massoud Barzani) confirmed in early August that Turkish troops had already begun operating in Iraqi territory. However, their main activity has consisted of preparatory work on the Turkish side of the border, in particular the establishment of 'temporary security zones' in the border provinces of Hakkari, Siirt, and Sirnak. These zones involve tighter controls on civilian movement and could be a prelude to cross-border action.

As these zones and the election demonstrate, attacking the PKK camps is once again being considered seriously in Ankara. Perhaps the most significant reason for this is that the PKK's insurgency has shown surprising resilience by sustaining itself since ending its unilateral ceasefire in May 2004, and there are signs it has taken lethal new tactical turns. In addition, given the PKK's strategic reliance on static camps, the military is confident that it could deal a substantial blow to the organisation in a cross-border operation.

Domestic factors also provide a favourable climate for an invasion in 2007, particularly the ruling AKP's desire to demonstrate its Kemalist credentials. The party narrowly failed to win the two thirds of parliamentary seats necessary to act unilaterally in appointing a president, and so it needs to pander to nationalists such as the National Action Party. Also, a stand-off between the military and the government in May, when the armed forces all but threatened a coup if the AKP's preferred presidential candidate was appointed, demonstrated that the AKP must also take into account the military's wishes in its appointments and policies. An invasion to tackle the PKK is supported within the military and could be seen as a concession to the armed forces from the AKP.

There are, however, obstacles to an invasion. The reaction of Iraqi Kurds, the Iraqi government and the US may mitigate against a cross-border operation, although an agreement could be reached with all parties for limited military operations. Furthermore, Turkish Kurds, who gained the greatest parliamentary representation ever in the July elections by running as independents, could act as a restraint on the government if it requires Kurdish support in parliament.

Given these competing factors, the probability of a Turkish invasion of Iraq is not yet assured. Nonetheless, the Turkish military has pressed forward at the Iraqi border and sent in mine clearance and special forces teams. In August, in the run-up to the Maliki-Erdogan meeting, Iraqi Kurdish media reported intense Turkish shelling and a 1 km incursion into the KRG area in Iraq's Zakho district. These events and the discourse in Ankara suggest that the likelihood of an invasion is at its greatest since 2001. Even if it does not take place in 2007, it is likely to occur in 2008 or 2009.


lots more.........

[seemslikeadream]

35. RE: The US/Turkey/Kurdistan issue. Seymour Hersh from 2004: Plan B....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2024996

....

In a series of interviews in Europe, the Middle East, and the United States, officials told me that by the end of last year Israel had concluded that the Bush Administration would not be able to bring stability or democracy to Iraq, and that Israel needed other options. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon’s government decided, I was told, to minimize the damage that the war was causing to Israel’s strategic position by expanding its long-standing relationship with Iraq’s Kurds and establishing a significant presence on the ground in the semi-autonomous region of Kurdistan. Several officials depicted Sharon’s decision, which involves a heavy financial commitment, as a potentially reckless move that could create even more chaos and violence as the insurgency in Iraq continues to grow.

Israeli intelligence and military operatives are now quietly at work in Kurdistan, providing training for Kurdish commando units and, most important in Israel’s view, running covert operations inside Kurdish areas of Iran and Syria. Israel feels particularly threatened by Iran, whose position in the region has been strengthened by the war. The Israeli operatives include members of the Mossad, Israel’s clandestine foreign-intelligence service, who work undercover in Kurdistan as businessmen and, in some cases, do not carry Israeli passports.

....

The Israeli decision to seek a bigger foothold in Kurdistan—characterized by the former Israeli intelligence officer as “Plan B”—has also raised tensions between Israel and Turkey. It has provoked bitter statements from Turkish politicians and, in a major regional shift, a new alliance among Iran, Syria, and Turkey, all of which have significant Kurdish minorities. In early June, Intel Brief, a privately circulated intelligence newsletter produced by Vincent Cannistraro, a retired C.I.A. counterterrorism chief, and Philip Giraldi, who served as the C.I.A.’s deputy chief of base in Istanbul in the late nineteen-eighties, said:

Turkish sources confidentially report that the Turks are increasingly concerned by the expanding Israeli presence in Kurdistan and alleged encouragement of Kurdish ambitions to create an independent state. . . . The Turks note that the large Israeli intelligence operations in Northern Iraq incorporate anti-Syrian and anti-Iranian activity, including support to Iranian and Syrian Kurds who are in opposition to their respective governments.


....

[seemslikeadream]

36. I hadn't realized Blackwater has been accused of selling weapons to the PKK

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2045005

Feds probe whether Blackwater smuggled weapons into Iraq

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled weapons into Iraq that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Raleigh, North Carolina, is handling the investigation with help from Pentagon and State Department auditors, who have concluded there is enough evidence to file charges, the officials told The Associated Press. snip

According to officials in Washington, the investigation grew from internal Pentagon and State Department inquiries into U.S. weapons that had gone missing in Iraq.

It gained steam after Turkish authorities protested to the U.S. in July that they had seized American arms from the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, rebels.

The Turks provided serial numbers of the weapons to U.S. investigators, said a Turkish official.

The Pentagon said in late July it was looking into the Turkish complaints and a U.S. official said FBI agents had traveled to Turkey in recent months to look into cases of missing U.S. weapons in Iraq.

Investigators are determining whether the alleged Blackwater weapons match those taken from the PKK.

It was not clear if Blackwater employees suspected of selling to the black market knew the weapons they allegedly sold to middlemen might wind up with the PKK. If they did, possible charges against them could be more serious than theft or illegal weapons sales, officials said.

The PKK, which is fighting for an independent Kurdistan, is banned in Turkey, which has a restive Kurdish population and is considered a "foreign terrorist organization" by the State Department. That designation bars U.S. citizens or those in U.S. jurisdictions from supporting the group in any way.