Hitler was as a charismatic leader and personally drove the engine that was Nazi Germany.

[Bonobo]

How do we begin to explain how it happened here?

I was listening to a historian on a podcast talk about Hitler and how the horror of Nazi Germany was largely driven by the force of his charisma. Naturally, the situation had to be right for him to have attained that power... WWI, the Treaty of Versailles, etc. but most people would agree that without Hitler's personal appeal, the changes that turned the Weimar Republic into Nazi Germany could never have happened.

So how do we explain America now? How have we lost so many of our freedoms without a whimper? It surely isn't the genius or charisma of Bush. So what the hell happened? Was it just 9/11?

It is hard for me to escape the conclusion that, unlike the Germans of that time who were taken in by a huckster's lies and the promise of regaining their pride after suffering such hard times, we Americans are victims of a much more well-organized system and not a sort of one-in-a-hundred generations charismatic leader.

Anyone know the fuck what I'm trying to say or am I just too stoned?

[John Q. Citizen]

1. I think you are saying vote for Kucinich, he has a very good progressive platform!

[silverojo]

29. Except on abortion n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

34. He has a 100% rating from NARAL. He's pro-choice. You must be anti-choice.

So I can see, from your point of view, why you wouldn't like Kucinich's pro choice platform

[Vincardog]

2. Is it that while the Germans were seduced by a charasmatic huckster

we were conned by an adolescent psychotic frat boy cheer leader who does not have enough charm and eloquence to be a sleazy used car salesman?

[aquart]

6. Sounds about right. Embarrassing, isn't it?

[Blashyrkh]

8. You missed wherer he said "Was it just 9/11" asking whethers factors beyond 9/11 influenced people.

I think there's quite a few factors, but 9/11 is the talisman around the neck of the war on terror.

[Bonobo]

11. Aaah, yeah, that was it. Thanx.

[Kagemusha]

3. I know that the Germans like to believe that but... I don't, personally.

Support for German rearmament was broad and deep for the simple reason that they had been turned into the unique monsters among mankind at Versailles so that, as the Great Depression struck, they didn't feel like they had anything left to lose in terms of world opinion and everything to gain in terms of pride. Hitler outmaneuvered a more moderate but still deeply conservative party and was consistently underestimated at every turn; moderates just didn't solve anyone's problems, which created the weaknesses that he managed to exploit with a vigorous and ever-growing political party supported by greater and greater numbers of Brownshirts.

Hitler was charismatic when the Beer Hall Putsch completely failed. What changed is that more Germans wanted radical change. He led those people because they wanted to be led.

Surely, without Hitler, the weak and gutless Weimar Republic would still have crumbled. Perhaps it would not have changed into "Nazi Germany" per se. However, the driving force was the German people, angry and resentful and eager for radical change. Hitler did not drive the engine. He pointed it and rode its force.

I just don't subscribe to the 'if we could go back in time and kill Hitler, WWII would have never happened' theory...

[Wiley50]

13. When you wrote "angry and resentful and eager for radical change"

I couldn't help but notice that that is much the way we feel now

after 7 years of crap

[Bonobo]

14. That's the scary thing, isn't it? This was going to happen in America too then.

It was not the work of Bush, Cheney or any other PARTICULAR cabal. It would have happened because of the WAY WE ARE. Just like Germany. The forces at play.

[Kagemusha]

20. It seems the man picks the era and the era picks the man. It's not one or the other

Things happen in combination.

If we didn't have Bush or Cheney, their movement would search for others to replace them. The results would not be exactly the same. But there would still be a movement, a driving force.

Who can predict the exact course a river will take? All you really know is that it's heading downhill until it hits ocean.

[Bonobo]

21. Shikata ga nai na.

[MadMaddie]

4. It began with " Yea I could see having a beer with * "

It began with...."A Blowjob"!

It began with a man named Rove who admired Hitler and Goerring. Same tactics different era.

Incrementally....a little here a little there...a Congress who is complicit in desecrating the Constitution.


That's current...

When it really happened was during the "Impeachment of Nixon"! Rumsfeld, Cheney, and other criminals that believed that the Executive Branch was equal to a King. These men were not prosecuted and sent to jail and they were allowed to plot their way back to power until one day....the perfect time, the perfect place 9/11 happened.

This parralels the "The Reichstag Burns" and the rise of Nazi Germany.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/burns.htm

They say that history repeats itself...
That's how it happened then and that's how it happened now.

[Bonobo]

17. Good.

You said:

"When it really happened was during the "Impeachment of Nixon"! Rumsfeld, Cheney, and other criminals that believed that the Executive Branch was equal to a King. These men were not prosecuted and sent to jail and they were allowed to plot their way back to power until one day....the perfect time, the perfect place 9/11 happened."

It was that plus the fact that they thought they learned the lessons from Vietnam. That they would only have won if they hadn't been stopped.

[Glorfindel]

5. I think a comparison of B*shit to Mussolini would be more apt...

they're both ignorant, strutting, brutal corporatist thugs with slavering hordes of rabid followers ready to do their bidding.

[Patsy Stone]

7. I can't speak

to whether you're too stoned or not, but if you're questioning whether you are, in my experience, you're not and you should smoke more immediately.

As to your other point, it's a combination of factors, all converging on 9/11 and malevolently benefiting from its aftermath, which then created a reverse prismatic effect, dude.

IOW, Clinton's impeachment, Newt's congress, the Moral Majority, Rush and Billo, the reduction of civil discourse and its replacement (lies and name-calling) have all contributed. All of this, along with the fact that, as George Carlin said on Countdown last night, "Everyone has a cell phone that makes pancakes. No one wants to rock the boat." makes for the sad situation we find ourselves in right now.

Please pass the bong.

[AndyTiedye]

9. By Doing Another Reichstag Fire and With Constant Help From the RePigLickin' Media?

[Beerboy]

10. A very good book looking at this question

is a book called "The Ominous Parallels". by Leonard Peikoff, 1982. It may very well be prohibited to mention and an instant tombstone to mention such a book on DU.
There are indeed some ominous parallels.

[Swamp Rat]

12. Don't bogart!

:D :smoke:

From another post, a little song I vandalized:



"Homelandlied" - Abgefuckt von der Sumpf-Ratte

Homeland, Homeland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt,
wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze
brüderlich zusammenhält.
von der Mississippi bis an die Colorado,
von der Erie bis an den Gulf,
Homeland, Homeland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt!

Amerikanische Frauen, Amerikanische Treue,
Amerikanische Wein und Amerikanische Sang
sollen in der Welt behalten
ihren alten schönen Klang,
uns zu edler Tat begeistern
unser ganzes Leben lang.
Amerikanische Frauen, Amerikanische Treue,
Amerikanische Wein und Amerikanische Sang!

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
für das Amerikanische Vaterland!
Danach laßt uns alle streben
brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
sind des Glückes Unterpfand;
Blüh im Glanze dieses Glückes,
blühe, Amerikanische Vaterland.

[MannyGoldstein]

15. Germany Was A Powder Keg Waiting For A Light - But So Was The US

A worldwide depression hit in the mid 1920s. This was preceded by conditions, in the 1920s that were very much like we had in the early part of this century - easy credit, and the final stage of the war waged by the Predator Class against the Middle Class. When the Middle Class had been bilked out of their last pennies, the whole thing collapsed.

Germany flirted with Communism and Fascism - as did the US (KKK, American Nazi Party, ...), Italy, and other countries - people were angry and hungry, and looking for something to pin their hopes on. In Germany and Italy, the bad guys won - Hitler and Mussolini were charismatic. In the US, the good guys won.

I hope the good guys also win this time.

[Bonobo]

19. Pretty good friggin' summation. Thanks.

Time for some more skunk...

[lvx35]

16. Hitler wasn't responsible for what happened in Germany.

That's the most dangerous illusion of our time, that Hitler killed 11 million in concentration camps etc. The truth is that people just like everybody else worked in those camps and killed those 11 million people, a single person never could have done it..Yet we talk about this monster Hitler, when he was merely a voice of his times. Fascism is a social phenomenon, and its growth depends on the right factors. The single largest characteristic it posseses is the consensual abandonment of truth in favor of "expedient" or "moral" lies, the widespread idea that its okay to lie when the intent is to create a "moral" result, or its for "the greater good"

[cali]

22. I suggest you read Mein Kampf and

a book entitled 'Diary Of A Man In Despair' by Friedrich Reck-Malleczewen. You're quite simply wrong. Hitler was more than simply a voice of his times. Of course people worked in the camps and on death squads, but that doesn't detract from the influence and power of Hitler.

Seriously, read Malleczewen. It's one of the least known and most important documents of the period. Mind blowing, really. Don;t take my word for it:

New York Times
"It is not often that invective reaches the level of art, and rarer still that hatred assumes a tragic grandeur."

Hannah Arendt
"One of the most important documents of the period."

[MannyGoldstein]

23. But The German People Embraced Mein Kampf

When the people were ready, their leader appeared.

[cali]

25. Sure, I wouldn't argue that but

he wasn't just some voice. read Reck-Malleczewen for some amazing insights into Hitler and his effect on everyday Germans.

[lvx35]

27. I'm saying that the people embraced the fascist power structures with consent

Of course Hitler had total power, but these structures were embraced, they were allowed to come into being by the people...They signed a contract with the devil and agreed that there are many things the "people don't need to know" and that the unitary leader "knows best" and all else followed.

The reviews for that book on Amazon look incredible. I will check it out...but if it lays the blame for the actions of millions on one man, I am sure to disagree with it.

[cali]

30. We're in agreement

it was synergy. And the book doesn't blame the actions of millions solely on one person. Be warned however, his viewpoint is that of a 19th century Prussian nobleman. If you can get over that- and it's sometimes difficult, it's a remarkable collection of observations, albeit from someone consumed with hate.

[lvx35]

47. I'll probably be okay.

I've been working on muddling through Hobbes' Leviathan, so hopefully this 19th century perspective should be easy to grasp in comparison.

[raccoon]

41. Agreed. Hitler didn't do the Holocaust by himself. He had plenty of willing helpers. nt

[KittyWampus]

18. Hitler had state-of-the-art propaganda tools. Film makers and film itself, a new medium

and radio. They were all new. People had never been brainwashed to that extent.

He had a military-industrial complex behind him, the most powerful one ever in history.

Hitler was NOT successful because he was some pied piper with extreme charisma.

[Malikshah]

24. Uh, context.

Who was blamed for WWI and made to pay for much of it?
Scenarios like that lead to the rise of evil no matter how inept more often then good.

After that...well, apathy sets in.

Ugly? Yep. Human nature? Unfortunately, yes.

[Jack Sprat]

26. A well funded, well organized misinformation blitz

It has been subverting truth with lies, going well on 25 years. Lies, so blatant, that you would never suspect that they could be taken seriously. Yet, the repetition over the course of time has lulled the people into a hypnotic ignorance.

[porphyrian]

28. Well, he was a shitty painter. -n/t

[tom_paine]

31. Well, the Nazis had the most sophisticated propaganda machine in history, also

I can now say with the fuill experienec of someone who has lived within a similar, though kinder and gentler phenomena, that neither Hitler nor Bush could have had the enormous successes they did without the Most Sophisticated Propaganda Machine in Human History.

The Germans were as much a victim of Goebbels' genius as Hitler's charisma.

As Americans have been the victims of Rove's genius and the other deeply evil people who have created the Bush Party-Loyal Sub-Media and Lie Laundry.

[mmonk]

32. They created a climate of fear just as bush is doing here.

They changed their laws to "protect" the people against terrorism. That's how it began.

[SmokingJacket]

33. I think a leader is the product of the society, not the other way around.

So, Hitler was created by a society that had been becoming increasingly anti-Semitic and nationalistic for years. His charisma didn't come from his sparkling personality, but because the society needed him to have charisma.

And Bush is the product of ours. Yep, the mind reels.

[DangerDave921]

35. Interesting Debate

One thing I would question, however, is the loss of rights. There are some folks on here who routinely pronounce that we have lost so many of our freedoms under Bush. But I can't really think of any right I've personally lost. I'd be curious what rights have you personally lost.

What did you have the right to do pre-Bush that you are no longer allowed to do? I'd like to get a list going.

[cali]

36. The loss of Habeas Corpus

is one. Or you could call it the erosion of Habeas. Warrantless wiretapping is another threat. A terrorist watchlist near 1,000,000.

[Bonobo]

37. How about fly with more than 4 oz. of liquid as an example?

[cali]

38. sure, and I think there's quite a few more examples

like the new proposed rules about flying.

[DangerDave921]

46. Um

I have to say, if the loss of your right to fly with more than 4 ounces of liquid is the worst example of our loss of rights, then that's pretty miniscule.

Erosion of Habeus Corpus is far more important, but we still have that right if we are US citizens.

[mondo joe]

39. Hitler didn't create Nazi Germany out of nothing. He didn't use mind control to force

its true adherents to believe as they did.

[vireo]

45. The "mass hypnosis" meme and notion of German exceptionalism

have helped to foster an "it can't happen here" mindset and sense of denial which have served the furtherance of the American fascist agenda. Perhaps that is why they have been advanced.

[YankmeCrankme]

40. I think Reagan set the table for Bush

"It is hard for me to escape the conclusion that, unlike the Germans of that time who were taken in by a huckster's lies and the promise of regaining their pride after suffering such hard times,..."

That was how Reagan was elected. Appealing to America's wounded pride and low self image following the Vietnam war, inflation, OPEC's hold over us and the feeling our manufacturing was surpassed by our WWII enemies Germany and Japan, who we beat, in quality and innovation. That allowed them the foothold they needed to make the changes they wanted. All else follows from there.

I believe decades were spent refining the techniques that Nazi Germany used. They learned to improve and apply those techniques so that they fit within the social fabric of the US, adapting them to our culture, which is fundamentally different from 1930,s Germany's.

[raccoon]

42. Great, kick-butt post. I suggest you start a thread on this.

"That was how Reagan was elected. Appealing to America's wounded pride and low self image following the Vietnam war, inflation, OPEC's hold over us and the feeling our manufacturing was surpassed by our WWII enemies Germany and Japan, who we beat, in quality and innovation. That allowed them the foothold they needed to make the changes they wanted. All else follows from there."

Same stuff, different decade, different country.

[LSK]

43. your argument is too simplistic in a complex situation

There are many factors that happened.

Germany's loss in WW1.

Germany only had a democracy for about a decade when Hitler came to power.

The severe economic depression that struck Germany for much of the 20s.

The Reichstag fire.

The enabling acts.

The blaming of the Jews.

Yes Hitler had charisma, but that is only PART of what happened.

[Beelzebud]

44. Fear added with an uninformed, unengaged citizenry, is a recipe for disaster.

[Junkdrawer]

48. Please read: "The Arms of Krupp"...

http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Krupp-Industrial-Dynasty-Germany/dp/0316529400/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-0292928-5936958?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193345659&sr=8-1

"Hitler was the reason Germany went Fascist" is a comforting fairytale.