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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 10:16 AM
Original message
Breathing theories

I would like to share a few brief thoughts on "conspiracy theories." I will attempt to do this in a manner that I hope offend no one on DU.

As some of you know, I like words and I like history. Malcolm X always recommended that we study the history of words. Abbie Hoffman pointed out that "conspiracy" comes from the Middle English term "conspiracie," which in turn comes from the Latin word "conspiratus" .... which simply means two or more human beings "breathing" together. In our culture, it obviously means two or more people planning and perhaps engaging in secretive activity. (Abbie was on trial for some heavy breathing at the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago.)

On a couple of DU threads,"Reclaiming History," a wonderful book by Vincent Bugliosi is mentioned, along with the suggestion that it debunks conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination. Mr. Bugliosi is famous for prosecuting the Manson family, and for writing a best-selling book ("Helter Skelter") about the case. He is a brilliant prosecutor, and a powerful author.

Mr. Bugliosi's record as an attorney provides plenty of documentation that he believes in conspiracies. Some of his theories on a conspiracy are found in the court documents he filed in a case after he had ended his career as a DA. It was a case involving KCOP TV and a plaintiff named Jerry Owen. Mr. Bugliosi's work on this case, including several trial documents, can be found in William Turner and John Christian's book, "The Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy." Mr. Bugliosi believed that there was a conspiracy to assassinate RFK.

Though Mr. Bugliosi is convinced that there was no conspiracy to assassinate JFK, other reasonable people believe otherwise. Christopher Dodd added this comment to the House Select Committee on Assassinations: "I remain convinced that the preponderance of evidence supports the finding of the (HSCA) committee that a gunman fired from the grassy knoll."(HSCA Final Report; page 643)

Others agree with Dodd. After the assassination of RFK, which Mr. Bugliosi argued was the result of a conspiracy, some of the friends of JFK and RFK were having lunch with Tip O'Neill. Two of them, Dave Powers and Kenny O'Donnell, told Tip that they were 100% convinced that some shots in Dallas had come from the Grassy Knoll. They told of investigators pressuring them to knowingly lie to the Warren Commission. If this is true, the investigators were engaged in a criminal conspiracy to conceal honest testimony from the Warren Commission.

Today I am reading a book by a new author named Valerie Plame Wilson. In it, she discusses the lead-up to the war in Iraq. Call me a crazy conspiracy theorist, but I am convinced that some of the Bush administration were involved in a conspiracy to lie to the congress and the public about Iraq's WMD programs, its ties to al Qaeda, and to pretend Iraq was involved in 9/11.

There was also a conspiracy to punish Joseph Wilson, the husband of author Valerie Wilson, for calling the administration on their lies. In the pretrial motions, special council Patrick Fitzgerald (also a prosecutor, like Mr. Bugliosi) noted that there had been a conspiracy to expose Valerie Plame's covert CIA status as part of the effort to punish her husband.

The word "theory" comes from the Greek word "theoria," and simply means "the analysis of a set of facts in relationship to one another." So long as we are human, our ability to fully understand the facts of many of the great mysteries of our times will probably be limited. But I certainly admire those who try. Thus, I shall return to reading Ms. Plame's book.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think there is another aspect in the motive to out Plame
and I see it mentioned here sometimes. She was actively a part of a group of people who were working on making sure Iran did not get nukes.
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Outed_CIA_officer_was_working_on_0213.html

So in a "two birds with one stone" The White House got to not only discredit Wilson for their run up to Iraq, but also Plame for their run up to Iran. In other words, I don't think the only reason they went after her is to get to her husband. Both wars have been planned for over a decade, and they knew exactly what they were doing. Now if only the media would discuss this aspect.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes.
In July,2004 I posted an essay ("The Waterman Paper") on DU that theorized that the exposing of Valerie Plame was intended to derail an on-going CIA program that she was involved in.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Wow. Is it three years already??? Man we're gettin old. n/t
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yep.
The infamous DU Plame Threads were from 3 years ago!
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
91. Well, we've also had more recent conclusions that David Kelly did NOT commit suicide too!
Edited on Fri Oct-26-07 09:37 AM by calipendence
Which is in my book completely related to the Plame situtation. And how long ago did "he commit suicide" too!

This coverup has been ongoing and happening for a LONG time!

Sibel Edmonds has been squashed for even more time too!
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
37. I remember the essay that you posted here.
I was persuaded at the time, and I still am, that one of the reasons for outing Valerie Plame was to shut down her undercover operation. The more we learn about what her operation involved, the more sense it makes.

Some people erect straw man arguments to discredit all conspiracy theories. That's illogical.

When I was a young person, many people in the U.S. scoffed at suggestions that the U.S. government was behind the coup that ended Allende's administration in Chile, replacing this democratically-elected leader with a vicious dictator. A few years ago, then Secretary of State Colin Powell acknowledged that the United States was, in fact, deeply involved in the coup.

Likewise, people laughed at the suggestion that the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro with an exploding cigar. Recently released CIA files prove that this is actually true.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. While I would
rework a few sentences in it, I think that essay provided a more accurate view of the scandal than anything published in any corporate newspaper.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #52
81. I think historians will look at your work on Plame here, along with that of a number of DUers,
as examples of how new media got the facts in the right order, first, and in the greatest detail.

Proud to be part of the conspiracy! A breath of fresh air, I say! B-) :thumbsup: :hi:
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
90. I also seem to remember the accusation that the Bush Administration ...
... has actionable intelligence to either catch or kill a known terrorist in Iraq prior to the war, but they did not act because if they did it would have eliminated a possible justification to invade. I searched but could not find anything on it - can't remember any specifics.
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dickbearton Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
62. Call anyone crazy, who doesn't think the Criminal Bush involved in the Plame Outing Treason.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #62
88. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying
are you saying you don't think they were involved or that they were?

Just clarifying.

I think they were (as did Fitz), and also think the outing had more to do with revenge against Joe Wilson.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
103. "Both wars have been planned for over a decade". At first I couldn't believe DoD was this dumb...
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 02:58 PM by EVDebs
...but then I read about it for myself and my jaw hit the floor, and I soon realized, reading the part about British intelligence stating that an occupation of at least ten years was required, that this is why Tim Russert used the '2013' withdrawal date during his questioning of Democratic candidates for president. Please peruse the following articles:

Document reveals Nixon plan to seize Arab oil fields
'70s embargo sparked 'last resort' measure, says British memo
Lizette Alvarez, New York Times
Friday, January 2, 2004
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/02/MNG8G427D61.DTL


Top Democratic candidates won't vow full Iraq pullout by 2013
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/27/dems.debate.ap/

The past 30 years have been wasted by the 'politics of oil depletion' in the world and especially the Middle East. When we should have been preparing the country to switch to sustainable alternatives to oil, instead we got Ronald Reagan tearing out Jimmy Carter's White House solar panels and 'happy days are here again' for Big Oil. Now we, and especially our military, are shooting ourselves in the foot so to speak. It was and is all soooo unnecessary.

If Clinton ever calls himself a leader on these issues, please direct him to this DU link.
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OceanChick Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
3. I'm proud to be an old hippie and conspiracy theorist
I think the Kennedy assassination was a coup and it's all been downhill from there.

You're the best, H2OMan!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Thanks.
My father used to tell me that the coup was JFK getting elected, and then attempting to change the system for the benefit of humanity. He said Dallas was simply the system re-setting its course.
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OceanChick Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Wow, that's an interesting theory
and makes as much sense as the original CT.

Either way, it seems we're screwed.
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OceanChick Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. sorry, dupe
Edited on Thu Oct-25-07 11:10 AM by OceanChick

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freebrew Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
87. It started well before that.
Some may say the Federal Reserve Act was the beginning.
But most assuredly, this was already beginning during FDR's term.
He was almost assassinated twice, the main culprits being friends of Prescott Bush.
There were deals made, some of them on record.
Read about GHW Bush's 'rescue' at sea during WW2.
Great hero, eh?
All the same actors, with similar actions throughout the times these reptiles live(d).

God, I miss Abbie...
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. The Problem With Trying To DeBunk 'Conspiracy' Theories
is that 7+ years have made it very clear that our worst fears are true. And let's not leave nasty Poppy out of the equation, nor his father. I'm pretty sure the fruit of his loom learned at an early age how to be a conspirator. And if he didn't learn the lesson well enough, Rove was waiting in the wings. Also, imo, PNAC is a class A conspiracy.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. The combined words
are frequently used to attempt to discredit someone, without examining what facts they are basing their theories on. I find that the values of various theories tend to be related closely to the insight and abilities of those making the theory.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Propaganda vs. Truth
Makes a huge difference. We left wing wackos have just spent a number of years learning the difference.
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Yodananda Samadhi Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #13
80. I must be too far out on the lunatic fringe to have
qualified for those lessons. Please enlighten me. Isn't one man's poisoning another man's psychedelia? If I knew which one was the Kool-Aid, I'd know which one to drink.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
48. Do you know the history of the phrase "conspiracy theory" used to discredit?
From 9/11 SYNTHETIC TERRORISM MADE IN USAby Webster Tarpley

Page 312
Conspiracy theory as a term of opprobrium is relatively new. It dates back to the work of Richard Hofstadter of Columbia University. Hofstadter was himself a kind of neocon ante litteram who became a direct beneficiary of McCarthyism: he took over a job vacated by Prof. Philip Foner, who had come under ostracism as a member of the Communist Party USA. In his essay on "The Paranoid Style in American Politics" (1964) and in his other writings Hofstadter took issue with the 1880s-1890s prairie populist critique of international bankers, a critique which today seems prophetic in its foreshadowing of the destructive shenanigans of Lord Montagu Norman of the Bank of England during the interwar period (Norman was part of Brown, Shipley in London, the home office of Prescott Bush's Brown Brothers, Harriman in Wall Street) and of the International Monetary Fund during the entire postwar period. But for Hofstadter, radical critics of Anglo- American finance oligarchy were paranoids. His essay is doubly suspect because it appeared in the wake of the Kennedy assassination, and seemed to suggest that the many critics of the Warren Commission report were also -- paranoids. An interesting problem was posed for Hofstadter in that sophisticated western Europe, where populist paranoia was supposedly less strong, was even more critical of the Warren Commission report than was the alleged US citadel of paranoia.

Hofstadter's favorite habit of tarring political forces he did not like, such as the populists, with the brush of paranoia appears illegitimate. The paranoid typically fears that there is a conspiracy afoot specifically against himself. For Hofstadter, this notion becomes impossibly broad: anyone who thinks he sees a conspiracy anywhere is ipso facto a paranoid. What is lost here is the necessary reference point in reality: is there a conspiracy going on or not? US Attorneys have been proving the existence of conspiracies to juries for a long time, and they have generally escaped the charge of paranoia.

http://www.american-buddha.com/911.syntheticterrormade13.htm#XII:%20CONSPIRACY%20THEORY:%20THE%20GREAT%20AMERICAN%20TRADITION

The url requires free registration, but i'd recommend doing it. It's got an extensive online lending library with many complete works. Authors from Mark Twain to Phil Dick, to Chomski to many many others
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
71. The very phrase "conspiracy theory" has been framed to
be considered, ipso facto, lunatic, crazy, out-there, nut ball and inadmissable. It is one iron-clad bit of framing, at the moment.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Fer sure
The chickenhawks had been planning the invasion of Iraq (at least) since Ronnie Raygun was in office. If that's not a conspiracy, I don't know what is. Add to that the pre-9/11 phone taps on Dems, the USA scandal, etc.... and it's not a big step to paranoia. I do not generally believe in conspiracies, but, as stated, 7+ years of this shit....

Prophecies are another thing that scare me. It's not the prophecies themselves, but the people that believe in them. The Dominionists, in particular, believe that Jeebus and the Rapture are coming soon and that God gave them the planet to plunder, not to care for. That kind of thinking is not good for living things. Too many of them are currently in positions of power and believe they'll be raptured before we have to pay the piper for all the damage they're doing.

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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
77. Personally I see a conspiracy going on in that regard everyday.
If the MSM are reporting on the events taking place under the Bush Administration and they don't bring up the PNAC document which has been the guidebook for all the actions taken so far then obviously they are complicit in hiding that "script" from the American people. Hell Chavez and Putin are able to quote from the PNAC script, but our own media continues to keep Middle America in the dark. Why is that? To me it seems like they are conspiring with our government for nefarious reasons much the same as the telecom companies have done recently.
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
11. Not all theories are created equally
Simply because the theory of gravity is strongly supported by evidence does not necessarily mean that I also have to believe, nor even take seriously, the theory that the earth is flat.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. True.
Theories should stand up to close examination.
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OceanChick Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. Kickety kick
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Hun Joro Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kick
And thanks for the clarity and insight.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Thank you. n/t
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. "if the Government has nothing to hide, why does it hide everything?"
Valerie Plame Wilson's book has large sections censored by the CIA.

There are many documents relating to the JFK assassination that are classified to this day.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Huge amounts
of Ms. Plame's book are censored. It reminds me of John Lennon's saying: "A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words."
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. yes, I just got it at Target 2 days ago
Edited on Thu Oct-25-07 01:16 PM by LSK
I have only gotten 10 pages into it thou. I am trying to finish another book before I dive into it.
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OceanChick Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yes, I will buy it too
because I want to support Valerie and Joe, even though I know I will get angry when I read it.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Also...
since the government lies about everything why should I believe anything they say?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
58. That is at the center of many things
That one fact should never be forgotten!
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R as usual.
You keep making too much sense.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. The new book
by Ms. Plame shows that the participants on the old DU Plame Threads were right. I think we have a team here that is able to put together some pretty good "theories."
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I'm off to the bookstore on the way home to pick up plame and wolf
and do some reading.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. The Old Plame Threads - For Anyone Who Is Interested
Thread # 1

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1902738

Thread # 2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1920799

Thread # 3

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1933148&mesg_id=1933148


Thread # 4

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1946368

Thread # 5

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1962806&mesg_id=1962806

Thread # 6

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1962806

Thread # 7

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1987173

Thread # 8

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1999438

Thread # 9

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2011088

Thread # 10

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2015582&mesg_id=2015582

Thread # 11

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2023260&mesg_id=2023260

Thread # 12

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2041061

Thread # 13

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2055363


Thread #14

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2085743

Thread #15

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2123068


Thread # 16

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2146652

Thread # 17

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2178477

Thread # 18

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2191498

Plastic Ono Plame

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...

Come Together

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...

Run Of The Mill

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...

Steel & Glass

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...

A Spaniard In The Works

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...

While My Guitar Gently Weeps

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...







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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Thank you.
Oldies but moldies!
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
83. Thanks!
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
59. Oh man! I remember being called all sorts of names...
Like kook, idiot, etc.

Uh huh... she who laughs last, and all that. Hard to believe it's been three years though!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Yep.
One of my best friends told me in the early fall of 2003, "If it's so important, how come you are the only person on earth that is interested in it? It hasn't been in the news for a couple months. Drop it."

I enjoyed placing copies of the NY Times, with little clocks drawn near the coverage of the Libby trial, on a planter on his porch in the early morning hours.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. Was Richard Armitage part of the
conspiracy?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. What do you think
that his role was?
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. This is how most "truthers" like to answer questions-
with questions, it sounds so mysterious.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Ha!
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. Do we do that? n/t
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. LOL! Nice one!
You get nailed if you claim to have answers, and nailed if you ask questions instead.
Can't win, can you?
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Yodananda Samadhi Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #33
79. The great challenge is to know things as they really are.


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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #79
97. Using a point to show that a point is not a point is not as good as using
a nonpoint to show that a point is not a point.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
26. Conspiracies happen. But grand conspiracies are rare at best
Big difference. People gather together all the time and form small scale conspiracies. But to plot, carry out, and maintain a large scale conspiracy takes on a completely different order of problems. The more complicated a conspiracy becomes the more likely it is to fall apart. And the longer it lasts the more time there is for things to break it apart.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I am not
familiar with the term "grand" in relation to conspiracies. Hence, I am not sure if you would consider the Plame scandal a "grand conspiracy." Parts of it were officially uncovered, and other parts were not. That is partly because it was compartmentalized, as operations are.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. The Plame scandal is the result of a limited conspiracy
And a poorly executed one at that. It has become quite exposed and is no where near behind the scenes as it would like to be.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I agree in
part. It was poorly executed, in large part due to the fact that there were amateurs in the OVP who mistook themselves for being more capable than they were. Hence, some in the White House called it "Scooter's 'black-op'."

However, it was part of a much larger effort that involved creating an atmosphere where the administration could change the map of the Middle East. A closely related criminal conspiracy is the neocon/AIPAC espionage scandal. And many seasoned intelligence officers believe that espionage scandal is closely related to others going back to at least 1980.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Oh I would say it goes farther
There is a central attempt to change the nature of our nation going on. But its not focused on just the Middle East. It is an attempt to shift our society from one of a free progressive society to one of a morally fixed authoritarian society watched over by a self appointed enlightened group.

Grand conspiracies are attempted. But they fail. Its entropy. It takes organization to maintain them. And entropy tears such things down.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I again agree
in large part. Where I would differ would be that I believe it is an "immorally fixed authoritarian society watched over by a self-appointed unenlightened group." But I am confident we are speaking of the same group.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I was of course refering to them as they see themselves
The truth is they are as you pointed out rather unenlightened.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #29
82. If you would care to read through the extensive threads on the topic...

you might come to the conclusion that the conspiracy is much more "grand" than you may suspect. Consider the various parties involved in the counterfeiting of the Niger documents. This is a multi-national incident, at the very least.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. was this a grand conspiracy?
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. It was an attempt to establish a grand conspiracy
But it failed. It fell apart. It hit too many roadblocks and had too many problems and thus failed. This is the fate of grand conspiracies or even start up grand conspiracies.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
31. nt
Edited on Thu Oct-25-07 03:25 PM by Javaman
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
34. Why, you crazy conspiracy theorist!
I'll be buying her book soon. Let me know what you think!

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. I got it last night.
I'm about finished, and I would give it a high grade. It is a book that tends to get better with each page.

What we spoke of in 2004 is generally accurate. But I don't want to spoil it for you, so I won't even mention where she speaks of the A.Q. Khan nuclear proliferation network on page 70.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
36. conspiracy theories get harder and harder to prove as time passes.
by the time the truth comes out on this coup of the last seven years (if it ever does) many will be beyond prosecution, but our nation needs truth. how to get to it is the eternal question.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. Right.
There tends to be a certain window of opportunity for "solving" criminal conspiracies.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
39. k&r
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
46. There's a difference between 'conspiracy theorist' and a theory about a conspiracy.
Edited on Thu Oct-25-07 04:07 PM by sicksicksick_N_tired
The former is generally accepted as an individual obsessed with explaining seemingly unrelated events.

The latter is a proposition based upon observation of related facts.

Neither should be summarily dismissed. Both may reveal a truth.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. Interesting.
I would define a "conspiracy theorist" is a person, and a "theory about a conspiracy" as a theory. I think that people use the term "conspiracy theorist" in an attempt to dismiss people in an insulting way. There are certainly some people who are unstable, and see connections when there are none. I also think that intelligent, rational people can believe a theory that is not true (although it may have some truth to it).

Police investigators and intelligence analysts are frequently "conspiracy theorists." It's fair to say that the best of them are slightly more "suspicious" about what appears to be true, than the general population. They have to be, and they have to question everything.

Interesting topic. I appreciate your response, and agree that we shouldn't summarily dismiss people, even those who seem to believe strange and unusual things.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. The term "conspiracy theorist" is certainly used to demean others. Professionals must theorize,...
,...about every possibility (examine all angles) when investigating an event or specific situation. Many of the professionals' speculations would likely be viewed as far-fetched simply due to existentially-limited perceptions while others would likely be accepted,...due to existentially-limited perceptions.

Those considered "amateurs" or non-professional (because they are not accredited, so to speak) can either be off-balanced or simply intelligent and curious people.

All of the above can and will produce nuggets of the truth or, at least, a clearer picture of any event. The more information gathered, the better able to decipher something resembling truth.

Thing is, I tend to be far less skeptical of those who have an inner drive to figure reality than those who have plainly stated they "create" reality.

:shrug: I can't help myself.
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WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
49. life would be so boring without speculation....
I particularly like your last paragraph...

The word "theory" comes from the Greek word "theoria," and simply means "the analysis of a set of facts in relationship to one another." So long as we are human, our ability to fully understand the facts of many of the great mysteries of our times will probably be limited. But I certainly admire those who try. Thus, I shall return to reading Ms. Plame's book.

You wouldn't get any new information without speculation. It gives you things to test so you can examine underlying assumptions...and that gives you more insight...

Anyway, I like it. It seems like the most interesting things in life are speculative (not necessarily accurate); without it, you end-up with bad literature, art, music, ...or maybe things that are functional but not sublime.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. A questioning mind
is a good thing.

A closed mind, like a closed room, tends to be stuffy.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
56. Conspiracies work when like minded people are galvanized by self-interest or a "noble cause"
This addresses to some degree the concern that conspiracies can't be kept secret.

It's hard for everyone in a conspiracy to stay silent if they don't believe the cause is justified or noble.

But if they do, it's easier.

Of course, fear and threats often help too, but I think the noble cause notion is a big one.

Think of the oft-mentioned conspiracies of the D-Day invasion or the Manhattan Project. It probably wasn't hard to keep people silent on these; they felt it was the right thing to do. Or think of the ladies who labored in secret as codebreakers at Bletchley Park. Some of these women are only now revealing their roles, after more than 60 years of keeping quiet.

Now think about the Weapons of Mass Destruction or the secret information that some Senators claimed to receive about unmanned drones that would be capable of attacking the East Coast if Saddam weren't stopped.

Is it possible that some alleged conspiracies from the past were held together with false information? What if you were a member of the Warren Commission and received a top-secret briefing about the "truth" behind the assassination of JFK -- that it was perpetrated by Cuba and that if this information were ever made public it would force the U.S. to declare war on Cuba, a Soviet client state, and almost certainly lead to World War III and perhaps the complete destruction of the planet.

Never mind that this story would be a lie. Would you take the risk of questioning it? Or would you be inclined to hold your tongue?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. That is similar
to some of the theories about Oswald's "legend." He had been to the Soviet Union, and had connections to Mexico and Cuba. The true nature of these "connections" has been disputed and debated for years. As time has passed, numerous once-classified documents that were not provided to the Warren Commission have been made public. Authors Lamar Waldron and Thom Hartman published an interesting book, "Ultimate Sacrife," that includes recently released documents. I think that their book is an interesting read, and would recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about the aspects of the period of history they cover. I am not in full agreement with their interpretation of some of the evidence they provide, but on something as complex as that era, I do not expect to agree with others on every detail of their interpretation.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #63
69. Thanks. Haven't read this book yet, but I've been curious. n/t
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
60. I see conspiracies daily...
I work in PR, and on a daily basis, I see and hear things that shock me... and I'm astounded at the number of freaky true stories that DO NOT hit the news! I think of that every time I hear or read someone say, "How many people had to keep their mouths shut? There's NO WAY you can't keep that many people quiet!"

I'm here to testify... oh hell yes! Oh YES you can absolutely keep that many mouths shut.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. In any large operation,
especially where confidential information is involved, there is usually compartmentalization. People gain access to information on a "need to know" basis. This takes place in organizations that are not involved in conspiracies.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Sure...
When I was working in a financial services firm and carried several securities licenses, there was a "Chinese Wall" separating people who knew certain aspects of the business. It's SEC regulation. I often think of this when I see truly outrageous, outlandish secrets being kept.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. What you don't know can't hurt you
As unfathomable as it is for many of us, some people simply don't know because they aren't curious, they've got too much to worry about already, or because they deliberately choose not to know because "what you don't know can't hurt you."

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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. Many JFK debunkers are now in CYA mode since the Joannides revelation
Celebrated authors demand that the CIA come clean on JFK assassination
Gerald Posner, Norman Mailer and Don DeLillo back lawsuit to open secret files on CIA mystery man tied to Lee Harvey Oswald.

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2003/12/17/joannides/index.html

"The authors and experts differ on who was responsible for the president's murder, but all agree that the CIA must now come clean about Joannides, a career spy who died in 1990.

In 1963 Joannides served as chief of the CIA's anti-Castro "psychological warfare" operations in Miami. According to declassified CIA records corroborated by interviews, Joannides secretly financed exiled Cuban agents who collected intelligence on Lee Harvey Oswald three months before Kennedy was killed. Fifteen years later, Joannides was called out of retirement by the CIA to serve as the agency's liaison to the House committee looking into Kennedy's assassination. While working with the committee, the spy withheld information about his own actions in 1963 from the congressional investigators he was supposed to be assisting. It wasn't until 2001, 38 years after Kennedy's death, that Joannides' support for the Cuban exiles, who clashed with Oswald and monitored him, came to light. "

40 years late and millions of dollars short, this bunch of 'debunkers' now have sooo much egg on their faces !

Read Temple Univ english prof Joan Mellen's A Farewell To Justice re Joannide's and the CIA connections to Oswald.

"Building upon Garrison’s effort, Mellen uncovers decisive new evidence and clearly establishes the intelligence agencies’ roles in both a president’s assassination and its cover-up, set in motion well before the actual events of November 22, 1963.

This book will become a landmark. As Mellen explains in the Preface, on the 40th Anniversary of President Kennedy's death in 2003, a Gallup Poll verified that twice as many people believed that the CIA was responsible for the assassination as believed that Oswald, a man without a motive, acted alone. "

http://www.joanmellen.net/

Mellen's interviews and research are why this is happening and we owe her a great debt of gratitude.



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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. Today on CNN Valerie Plame said that the Administration is guilty of Treasonous behavior....

yesterday Joe Wilson said that it was a conspiracy within the administration that was responsible for the outing of Plame. These statements alone should vindicate many so-called conspiracy theorists on DU, provided you believe what they are saying.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. Is that what she said? nt
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Something to that effect, and she used the word treason...

CNN even had it captioned.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. She Said It Flat Out On Hardball
No equivocating, no downplaying it, no qualifiers, no nothing but flat our treason
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
74. The preponderance of evidence and inductive thinking can only lead to a conspiracy
The reasons behind that, to my mind, lead to the Khan Job article Greg Palast wrote. From there you get American Judas, Dick Cheney.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2104338

Kudos to DU's Robert Paulsen !
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
67. Yoko Ono
A dream you dream alone may be a dream, but a dream two people dream together is a conspiracy.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-25-07 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
72. How many rifles did the Warren Commission report acknowledge finding at the Schoolbook depository?
Three, a British Enfield, a German Mauser, and the Italian Manlicher-Carcano. (Thanks to Richard Belzer's blog
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-belzer/defaming-history-or-who-_b_60188.html )

Now WHY would an NSA 'pre 9-11 policy shift' be necessary ?

Greg Palast and Lala-rawraw had a clue:

"The "Back-Off" Directive and the Islamic Bomb

. . . A top-level CIA operative who spoke with us on condition of strictest anonymity said that, after Bush took office, "There was a major policy shift" at the National Security Agency. Investigators were ordered to "back off " from any inquiries into Saudi Arabian financing of terror networks, especially if they touched on Saudi royals and their retainers. That put the Bin Ladens, a family worth a reported $12 billion and a virtual arm of the Saudi royal household, off limits for investigation. Osama was the exception; he remained a wanted man, but agents could not look too closely at how he filled his piggy bank. The key rule of any investigation, "follow the money," was now violated, and investigations-at least before September 11-began to die."

Khan job
Bush Spiked Probe of Pakistan's Dr. Strangelove
http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/palast/palast3.html

So now I ask you, why would even Bill Clinton now try to impugn the veracity of the Jersey Girls "9-11 Press For Truth" movement ? The girls simply demand a new 9-11 Commission and investigation since the last one was partial to the government's 'official conspiracy theory' which we are finding doesn't jibe with the information we are uncovering on a daily basis regarding the build up to wars in Iraq and on 'global terror', which first required a pretext, as James Bamford has postulated along with many many many other thinking individuals who cannot be ignored or shunted into a debate 'dungeon'.


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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #72
89. I hope the Jersey Girls haven't given up.
It would be nice to see a real investigation.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #89
98. That's all they're asking for. It's a miracle they haven't shunted this to the dungeon by now
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
78. ..so many conspiracies: so many left wing gatekeepers and so little time......
One truly finds out who has drunk the poison punch.

Thanks H2Oman, for putting this on a non-hysterical footing.
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
84. Morning Kick for a great conversation.
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Pawel K Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
85. I like your posts but let me kindly disagree.
I don't think it is wise to compare what happened in the lead up to the war in Iraq with some of the crazy conspiracy theories that are posted around here all the time.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
86. ttt n/t
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
92. Thank you. "Conspiracy theorist" has been made a pejorative
in the same way that "liberal" and even "Democrat" have.

That major governmental conspiracies throughout human (and, therefore, American) history have existed is beyond question.

That some "conspiracy theories" (JFK's assassination in particular) remain open to debate is also beyond question, of course, but as you point out, there are many reasonable people who, based on their assessment of what is known, have concluded that a conspiracy to kill JFK existed.

There are crazy theories, too. I don't believe there were 21 shooters, or that the chauffeur of Kennedy's limo shot him, etc. But the more outlandish theories should not be used to discredit the many reputable and intelligent people who have reached conclusions that some may not agree with.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
93. There was a time when most learned men dismissed the THEORY of germs
and demeaned the theorist. Their intransigence did not stop the germs from harming people. The dismissal/demeaning of the theory and theorist for so long DID allow the germs to keep harming people unabated.

Amazes me how few learn anything from history. Something seeming unlikely to one's limited view and perception can most certainly exist. The fact that so many have trouble with that concept is the very reason conspiracies can work well.

Thanks for your tireless efforts to teach us some history, H2O Man. You may yet help save us from ourselves.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. ...and now it's still difficult to get Drs to wash their hands btw visits to patients ! nt
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. Well, they can't go about believing in little critters that are invisible!
No point if feeding the paranoia of those germ-theory tin foilers!
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
94. Bugliosi will be on c-span/BookTV In Depth Nov. 4, live for three hours taking calls.
:)

In Depth: Vincent Bugliosi

Upcoming Schedule

Sunday, November 4, at 12:00 PM
Monday, November 5, at 12:00 AM
Saturday, November 17, at 9:00 AM
http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=8792&SectionName=In%20Depth&PlayMedia=No


His July BookTV interview about Reclaiming History is online here (for RealPlayer)
http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=8329&SectionName=History&PlayMedia=Yes

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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #94
100. Google up Richard Belzer's blog re JFK and Bugliosi's book
It's a tour de force.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
95. Thought crimes
Thinking for yourself means making connections and drawing conclusions, in order to make sense of the world. This country's best people--like those listed above-- are those that have inspired independent and innovative thought.
I have felt that someone just wanted me to shut up and feel crazy when they accused me of conspiracy theorizing. Great post, thank you H2O Man.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-26-07 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
96. Thank you, Sir.
We breathe together in our quest for Truth.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
102. Check out kpete's most excellent post re Bobby Kennedy on JFK
Edited on Sat Oct-27-07 01:41 PM by EVDebs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1657789

however, the 'capable Walter Sheridan', as shown in Joan Mellen's book A Farewell To Justice

http://www.joanmellen.net/

was out to destroy Jim Garrison's investigation. Page 186, it was Sheridan who in 1963 "had determined, at Bobby Kennedy's request, that the mafia had not planned his brother's assination."

Sheridan's NBC 'White Paper' on Garrison is the result, aired June 19, 1967. The CIA and the media...working both sides of the street.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
104. Kicking
Because I see some people posting on other threads today who need some clarity on the definition of conspiracy and theory.

:kick:
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