Pit Bulls Kill Miniature Horse Donated To Cancer-Stricken Child

[krispos42]

AMARILLO -- A miniature horse given to a boy with brain cancer by the Make-A-Wish Foundation was killed by a pair of pit bulls who were found roaming in his yard, authorities said.

The 31-inch tall horse, Anniversary, was donated by the foundation to 3-year-old Christian Vasquez in late August.

Christian, who was diagnosed in January with a malignant form of brain cancer, received a pull cart, a blanket, a halter and a bridle set from the foundation on Saturday, said Jelaine Workman, executive director for the foundation's Amarillo chapter.


Two days later, Anniversary was found dead on his property in Pampa by Christian's father, Raul Vasquez.

<more>

http://www.ksat.com/news/14413827/detail.html

Make-a-Wish is trying to get him a new horse. God, I can't imagine this happening to my 3-year-old :-(

http://www.amarillo.com/stories/102507/new_8766314.shtml
http://www.northtexaswish.org/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Miniature horses is where veal comes from.

At least that's where Olive Garden gets it from.

[Whoa_Nelly]

6. Am sure you're joking

Veal is the meat produced from very young cattle -- most commonly male calves from dairy herds

[shain from kane]

12. Oftentimes, unborn calves. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

148. Holy crap!

:spray:

[Enrique]

2. this won't do much for pit bulls' image

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xultar]

5. I'ma part of the Pro "pibull" lobby as you put it. They are nice dogs

when socialised and taken care of properly. Golden Retrievers have killed people before.

So don't spew bullshit.

[renie408]

7. Gee, that took all of ten minutes. You guys are getting a little slow.

BTW.... coming from the person who defends the pitbulls every time they kill something do you HONESTLY think nailing me for a typo stings?? That was almost funnier than you jumping in here so fast.

And if you would like me to dredge up all those pesky stats from the CDC which prove that pitbulls have accounted for the majority of dog related deaths over the previous twenty years, I will be happy to.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Alright, dredge the numbers up.

Let's see the stats, normalized for the popularity of pit bulls.

[cuke]

16. And let's see the stats for ALL dog bites, not just the fatal attacks

Maybe it's just me, but I think it's pretty serious when a dog disfigures or disables a young child.

[lumberjack_jeff]

340. No, a dog which has the physical capability to kill

is a bigger concern than one which has the physical capability to hurt, for the same reason that the there is nothing analagous to the department of alcohol, tobacco and firearms for candybars, frenchfries and slingshots.

... and my pet is a rottweiller.

[renie408]

20. Not sure about 'normalizing for the popularity of pitbulls', but here you go:

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

I think I know where you are going. Pitbulls accounted for by far the largest number of fatalities, but are, by far, NOT the most popular dog in America. If you did a percentage of dogs or a number of dogs per thousand involved in fatal attacks, the numbers would be even more startling.

[cuke]

23. How about stats about non-fatal attacks?

Or does disability and disfigurement not count?

[renie408]

27. Hold on, it took me a minute... I am supposed to be doing something else..

1. Children suffer 60% of all dog bites.
2. 73% of children were bitten on the face, neck, or head.
3. More than 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs each year.
4. Dog bites cost over $1 billion a year, with insurance companies paying out $250 million in liability claims.
5. Children are 900 times more likely to be bitten by dogs than mail carriers.
6. Dog attacks account for one-third of all homeowner liability claims.
7. Pit Bulls and Rottweilers are involved in over 50% of dog attacks


http://www.central-insurance.com/docs/ho-dog.htm

[cuke]

32. 4.8 million bites a year, and you ignore them and focus on fatal attacks

Look at the #'s you just posted.

BTW, if rotties are biting as much as pitbulls (which are actually several different breeds) then if you were to adjust the #'s to acct for popularity, then rotties are coming out worse than PB's

[renie408]

49. No, pitbulls aren't 'several different breeds'. They are a breed recognized by the AKC.

And what does Rotties being worse than pits have to do with anything? That's like saying Dick Cheney is worse than Bush, so we shouldn't pick on Bush.

[cuke]

53. The newspapers don't know that

When the media reports it, the person reporting it doesn'T know a pitbull from pit stop

[renie408]

59. That is a generalization, not a fact and proves what, exactly? n/t

[cuke]

No, it is a fact

Most "dog people" can't tell the difference. You expect a "journalist" to know better?

[Critters2]

233. You have stats to prove this?

How would one do that, exactly?

[cuke]

236. You look at the dog (or it's picture)

And if you look at the oft-quoted statistics on the # of fatal PB attacks, you'll see that they aren't counting just PB's as PB's. They count any mutt that looks like a PB.

So if PB's are so aggresive, why are so many mutts involved in fatal attacks?

[Critters2]

252. "So many"? So, you don't have stats.

Just wondering.

[cuke]

255. How do you expect to dig up stats

about dogs that have been euthanized and disposed long ago?

If you read the statistics about dog bites, both fatal and non-fatal you will see notes that demonstrate that the category of PB's includes dogs that either only APPEAR to be PB's and mixed breeds.

[Critters2]

260. You've demonstrated that you nly have anecdotal evidence for this.

Your opinion doesn't constitute proof. But thanks for playing.

[cuke]

267. *yawn*

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

See section 'Dogs most liable to kill"

"Studies indicate that pit bull-type dogs were involved in approximately a third of human DBRF (i.e., dog bite related fatalities) reported during the 12-year period from 1981 through1992, and Rottweilers were responsible for about half of human DBRF reported during the 4 years from 1993 through 1996....he data indicate that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities." (Sacks JJ, Sinclair L, Gilchrist J, Golab GC, Lockwood R. Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998. JAVMA 2000;217:836-840.) "

Please note they don't refer to Pit Bulls. They refer to "pit bull-type dogs"

"The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.) "

So much for the "how much damage can a small dog do" argument

[cuke]

269. ..

ftp://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Publications/mmwr/wk/mm4621.pdf

Data from HSUS and NEXIS were merged to maximize detection of cases and avoid
duplicate reports. Because news media accounts can inaccurately report breeds of
dogs involved in DBRFs, only breed data from the HSUS were used (4 ). When multiple
dogs of the same breed were involved in a fatality, that breed was counted only
once. When crossbred animals were involved in a fatality, each breed in the dog’s
parentage was counted once. Dogs were also classified as on or off the owner’s property
and whether they were restrained (e.g., chained or leashed) at the time of the
attack.


Please note that mutts are counted multiple times (once for each breed in it's line). Also note how the mention that "news media accounts can inaccurately report breeds of dogs..."

[cuke]

274. Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which maintains the United States' database on fatal wounds inflicted by dog bites, does not advocate breed-specific legislation, instead encouraging "Dangerous Dog" laws that focus on individual dogs of any breed that have exhibited aggressive behavior.<64> The CDC study is also admittedly flawed due to a large number of dog breeds being unknown when the study was compiled. It bears mentioning that using newspaper reports as evidence is hardly the most valid data available"

[cuke]

276. CDC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

News reports of injuries and fatal attacks
News media stories of "pit bull" attacks involving disfiguring injury to humans and other animals, the latter very often also fatally, ranging in size from attacks on smaller nonpitbull dogs<74> <75> to horses<76> <77> <78> <79> <80> <81> can be found globally.<82><83> The pit bulls involved were not always loose and off the owner's property, but sometimes were inside the home of the owner, who, or a family member or visitor, was the victim of the aggression. Fatal pit bull attacks to children and adults have been reported by the English-language news media in the United States and United kingdom. Of course dogs are frequently misidentified as "pit bulls", either through ignorance or prompting by overly zealous media and/or law enforcement.<84> <85> <86> <87> <88> <89> <90> <91> <92> <93> <94> <95> While many of these incidents surely do involve a Pit Bull, the Pit Bull has been shown to have no less acceptable temperaments than most other dogs<96>. Dogs are also frequently misidentified as "pit bulls", either through ignorance or prompting by overly zealous media and/or law enforcement.

[Roon]

279. Yep!! Exactly!!

People who know their dog bites should have the pants sued off of them when their dog attacks someone.

[uppityperson]

89. It means they are misclassifying and reporting erroneously.

Many times dogs that aren't AKC pitbulls are reported as being such because that sells more papers. Which of these dogs is an AKC pitbull? Give it to a reporter and see if they can pick it out. Unless they know their AKC breeds well, they will probably have problems. So, why do you think a dog attack is reported as a "pitbull attack" and later it comes out it was a different type dog? Why is the retraction not given front page coverage?
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

[Clark2008]

114. I reported on several pit attacks when I was a journalist.

And, since my beat included both police and courts AND the Humane Society (we all got to pick our "pet" beats - no pun intended - beats we wanted to cover in addition to our news beats), trust me, I knew what a pit bull was/is.

:eyes:

[Oeditpus Rex]

238. That might have some validity if

reporters didn't get such information from the police or other responding agency.

[cuke]

246. Do you think that the police can tell breeds apart?

Even some professionals are unaware of this.

[Oeditpus Rex]

250. I don't know, but that's not my concern

I just know there's an important distinction between "The dog was a pit bull" and "The dog was a pit bull, police said."

[uppityperson]

58. exactly, and that is a problem with new reports.

Often dogs called "pitbulls" in reports are not AKC recognized pitbulls. Several different breeds, many large headed purebreds and mixed breeds are commonly referred to as "pitbulls" in reports.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. The AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier.

They recognize the staffordshire bull and the american staffordshire.

[renie408]

77. Sorry, I got that wrong. I thought they did. That doesn't mean that a breed with a registry since

1898 isn't a breed, though.

[cuke]

81. Do you enjoy stirring shit up?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2135103#2135184

[renie408]

132. You just linked right back to this thread.

I figured you were going to link to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2129525&mesg_id=2129782

And a lot depends on my mood of the moment as to whether I enjoy stirring shit up. It would appear that I have been in a bit of a shit stirring mood lately. Do you always refuse to accept any position that is opposed to your own or always use bizarre non sequiturs in place of actual arguments?

[cuke]

143. Wow, you say you like to stir shit up, but are offended that I asked

Do you always refuse to accept any position that is opposed to your own shit stirring or always use bizarre non sequiturs in place of actual arguments?

[renie408]

150. On what planet is it intelligent debate to quote your opponent?

And I am not offended. And if you can come up with the aggression stats which say that labs are more aggressive than pits, I will accept it.

Seriously, my own dogs REALLY want dinner. I have to go. You can have the last word on this one.

[cuke]

198. Earth

Here on planet Earth, people quote their opponents all the time

Whatplanet are you on?

[renie408]

208. Hey, you never said which one was the pitbull downthread.

That might make somebody who isn't as convinced of your dog expertise as I am doubt you. Could you please tell me which one it was? You know, right?

[cuke]

221. You are afraid PB's but you don't know what they look like

You obviously dont want to admit that, so you're trying to turn it on me

[renie408]

310. Well, you are defending pit bulls without being able to identify them.

Your point?

[Dervill Crow]

328. Wrong - the AKC recognizes the American Staffordshire Terrier.

The "pit bull" designation includes several different breeds.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

55. When my neighbor's little hyper chihuahua

bit my child's finger, his life wasn't in danger.

Little dogs bite more, but I'll leave my child with ten unknown little dogs before I leave him with one rottie, pitbull, or chow. (Yeah, I can't stand chows, either.)

[cuke]

60. What if the little dog bit his neck? Or his face?

Is disfigurement and disability not important?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

75. Uh, yeah,

but his life is even more important.

And that's the point. A bite from a nasty little toy poodle just isn't going to do that much damage - especially if parents aren't leaving their young children unattended with a small dog. My neighbor's collie was in it's own backyard, and was killed by a nasty, ugy, vicious pitbull that broke through my neighbor's fence.

I'm just not real worried that the little shih tzu that lives behind me is going to break through the fence and attack my kids or my dog. And if she does, I'll grab her by the colarr and return her to my neighbor. If a pitbull breaks through my fence, I will SHOOT IT.

[cuke]

80. So why ignore the non-fatal attacks?

"A bite from a nasty little toy poodle just isn't going to do that much damage "

You're just flat out wrong about that. Small dogs have not only disabled and disfigured children, they have killed them. Is losing one's sight "that much damage"? How about losing the use of a finger or hand? etc?

"I'm just not real worried that the little shih tzu that lives behind me is going to break through the fence and attack my kids or my dog. And if it does, I'll grab it by the color and bring it back to my neighbor. If a pitbull breaks through my fence, I will SHOOT IT. PERIOD."

As well you should. Any attacking dog should be considered a threat to one's life. Nothing wrong with self-defense. However, with approx 3 fatal attacks from PB's annually, don't you think the reaction is a bit hysterical? Now compare that with the millions of other bites, and the millions of dollars it costs to treat them.

[renie408]

82. Look, are you trying to say that you would be equally concerned about a chihuahua

loose in your neighborhood as a pitbull? Cause I just can't see that. And do you think that pitbulls aren't also non-fatally biting people? Are you saying that those three attacks are the only pitbull attacks occurring each year?

[cuke]

94. No. It's pretty simple

If you want to know which dog is more aggressive (as determined by how often they bite) then you need to count ALL of the bites. Just because the dog was unsuccessful in it's attempt to kill something or someone, that doesn't make the dog any less aggressive.

You are measuring a dogs aggressiveness on the basis of ONE RARE form of aggression (fatal attacks) while ignoring the MOST COMMON form of aggression (non-fatal dog bites)

[midlife_mo_Jo]

95. Little dogs often bite out of fear of being overcome by kids

That's not necessarily an "aggressive" trait.

The chihuahua that bit my son's finger was not "aggressive." It was a bit hyper, and was probably afraid of my son. It happened very quickly when we arrived at the neighbor's house. With better supervision it could have been avoided.

The pitbull that broke through my neighbor's fence and killed her collie was not only "aggressive," it was damn vicious and deserved to be destroyed. It was.

[cuke]

102. It's called "Fear-aggression" and yes, it's aggression

Maybe you should do a little reading up on aggression and dog behavior.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

116. I know what fear aggression is

I had a miniature poodle that was quite fear aggressive. At twelve pounds, I didn't fear for my life, although our vet finally recommended that the dog be put down. (The dog was aggressive there every six or eight weeks when the groomer attemped to groom him.)

My neighbor's dog is not fear aggressive. it's a dog, and dogs can and do bite to protect themeselves without necessarily being fear aggressive. My eight year old son walked into the room and almost sat on the dog. My son put his hand down on the floor as he threw himself down. He could have killed the dog.

[cuke]

125. But you just said it wasn't aggression. Now it is

And yes, a small aggressive dog isn't as dangerous as a large aggressive dog. You're not breaking any new ground with that.

The point is that to measure the aggression of a dog, you must measure ALL aggressive acts. Not just the fatal ones.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

128. My poodle was fear aggressive

My neighbor's chihuahua wasn't.

[KurtNYC]

121. very few dog bites represent an attempt by the dog "to kill something"

dogs bite during play, mating, and as part of pack heirarchy.

Even if one accepts that pitbulls may be no more likely to bite, the statistics show that they are involved in MORE LETHAL ATTACKS than any other breed. IMHO it is the combination of breed and OWNER that creates these problems.

[cuke]

129. We're talking about aggresive bites, not play bites

We're talking about aggression. And yes, PB's are involved in more lethal attacks than other breeds. However, that indicates NOTHING about the dog's tendency toward aggression. It is a reflection of the popularity of PB's (specially people who want to be tough) and their size. It has nothing to do with their breeding

[KurtNYC]

173. even if a bite breaks the skin it isn't necessarily an attempt "to kill something"

any more than a lick represent an attempt to eat someone.

[cuke]

207. You're right

I phrased it wrong. It doesn't matter if the dog wanted to kill or not. The important thing it was an aggressive bite as opposed to some other type of bite, like a play bite which is not considered an act of aggression

[Roon]

275. My Parents have a huge wiemerwiner (sp)

that has bitten 7 people, including a 2-year-old boy who had to go to the hospital and a friend of theirs that required stitches. Wiems are very needy dogs and if they think you are dissing them on attention, they will get mean and attack. Anyway, my parents know this dog bites, this dog has even been quarantined for after he bit the two-year-old, yet they keep the dog. I don't know what breed of dog is more dangerous, but I would like to see a statistic on how many people that have dogs..that KNOW their dogs bites..and has disabled/killed people or other animals. THAT is what pisses me off the most....

[cuke]

277. It really pisses me off too

Explain how they can get sued and lose everything if that dog bites the wrong person and it comes out that the dog has bitten people in the past

[Roon]

293. I know, I don't know what they're thinking

They are both intelligent,college educated, stable people. I just don't get the reason why they don't realize this dog is dangerous and get rid of it/put it down. It just boggles the mind.

[uppityperson]

278. They better be careful, talking big liability issues there.

[Roon]

316. Don't I know it

They drive flashy cars, have a HUGE house that sits on 7acres, they own several rental properties and they travel, travel, travel. And the threat of losing all of that hasn't deterred them from keeping that biting dog.

[Critters2]

298. Hmmm...I'm skeptical.

Hard to think a dog with this record hasn't been destroyed.

[cuke]

303. I've seen it many times

"Oh, he was just playing", "He didn't mean it", "It's your fault", and a million other excuses.

When it comes to something they love, people will say anything.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

90. How many ANIMALS do pitbulls kill? Human fatalities are just a tiny part.

I know of two dogs killed by vicious pitbulls just in the last few years here in my little part of suburbia.

Yes, disfigurement is serious, but it's not the same thing. Ask any parent who's lost a child if they'd rather lose their child or their child's finger. No brainer.

[cuke]

97. How many dogs bite?

If you want to know how aggressive a dog is, you measure ALL acts of aggression, and not just the fatal ones.

If you want to argue that it's better to get attacked by a Chihuahua than a PB, then you're going to have to find someone who disagrees with you. The argument has been made that PB's are more aggressive than any other breed by a large margin. The problem is that it's based on looking at a limited set of data.

[nonconformist]

92. LOL... easily the most ridiculous pro-vicious dog argument I've ever heard

"why are fatal attacks getting more attention than non-fatal attacks?!?!?!"

Are you fucking kidding me?

[incapsulated]

96. Actually...

It's a point based on pure genetics.

Another breed of dog may try to kill you, may want to kill you, but a pit has the jaw strength to be fatal. That doesn't mean they are more aggressive toward humans however it's just that they are bred to fight. Other dogs.

Which is why they really aren't more aggressive toward humans than other dogs they are just an aggressive breed that will look to attack other animals if they are improperly trained or trained to be vicious. And if they turn on a person it can be very ugly because they have the strength to kill you.

[cuke]

101. Right, so how stupid is it to measure aggression by ignoring aggresive acts?

People like to make fun of arguments as if they knew what they were talking about, but it only takes a minute of thought to realize that to measure aggression, one must look at ALL acts of aggression

on edit:

"why are fatal attacks getting more attention than non-fatal attacks?!?!?!"

Pretty dishonest to put that in quotes as if I said anything like that

[incapsulated]

110. Well...

Because the result of a little poodle attempting to kill you will be laughable but if a pitbull wanted to they could.

They are a fighting breed. They can be aggressive toward other dogs and animals because they were bred for this. They are fully capable of taking on a small child or human if out of control because they are so powerful, so they must be understood and well trained. And sadly people do not or even train them to be nearly psychotic. When they are well trained and in the hands of sane and responsible owners, however, they are wonderful pets because they actually are far more affectionate to humans than many other breeds.

Don't blame the dogs, blame their owners. Or in this case, whoever let them get loose.

[cuke]

117. Poodles can be both vicious and dangerous

They're not chihuahuas. They can do a lot of damage. Poodles were originally bred for hunting.

And yes, PB's can be dangerous, just as any LARGE DOG can be. However, there are breeds that are far more aggressive than PB's. Like you say, its the owner, not the breed. The differences in aggression between breeds is, for the most part, marginal

[incapsulated]

120. Lemme tell you, for pure viciousness

Little dogs can be the worst. Usually because they are so nervous, that can make a dog very aggressive.

[cuke]

130. Exactly

Some people can't distinguish between "dangerous" and "aggressive"

[midlife_mo_Jo]

134. Ok. So a dangerous, aggressive pitbull killed my neighbor's collie.

That make you feel better?

:banghead:

[incapsulated]

151. I'm sorry that happened

:(

As I said, they were bred to fight other dogs and if they develop aggressive tenancies and this isn't stopped immediately, this sort of thing can happen.

I will also point out that I've known many pitbulls who didn't seem to have an aggressive bone in their bodies.

[cuke]

254. *yawn*

This thread isn't about your anecdotes

[midlife_mo_Jo]

139. Ok. So a dangerous, aggressive pitbull killed my neighbor's collie.

That make you feel better?

:banghead:

[midlife_mo_Jo]

140. Ok. So a dangerous, aggressive pitbull killed my neighbor's collie.

That make you feel better.

:banghead:

[midlife_mo_Jo]

147. Three times I tried to respond to "Exactly."

And three times, the message got posted in the wrong place.

Weird. Definitely some kind of bug.

Anyone else experience this?

[incapsulated]

157. It happens sometimes

Just a lag that causes dupes.

[cuke]

149. You really don't have a clue, do you?

And you just can't admit that you might have been wrong in confusing aggression with danger. So instead, you act as if it was me who didn't understand

[midlife_mo_Jo]

160. The DAMN pitbull was AGGRESSIVE and DANGEROUS.

[cuke]

195. Wow

You still seem to think that this about the one PB encounter you had

[midlife_mo_Jo]

200. Make that two encounters I personally know about

and those encounters are certainly similar to scores of other attacks by pitbulls.

How many breeds of domesticated dogs attack unprovoked the way these dogs do?

I used to be terrified of a chow, but I actually had to enter his territory before he became aggressive. The pitbulls seem to leave their own territory to attack other dogs and humans.

[cuke]

203. I've had more encounters than you/ None of them PB

I don't know why you think your two anecdotes are relevant. I have known about 6 Cocker SPaniels that were quite aggressive, but you won't see me brand an entire breed because of some anecdotal evidence.

Chows are known for being territorial. PB's can be territorial, but chows are more. Chows are also closer to a wild dog, if I understand it correctly. As you might have guessed, I don't have a lot of experience with chows.

Also, no dog attacks "for no reason". You may think it was unprovoked, but from the dog's POV you did something provocative, even if that means you unknowingly acted like a prey animal. PB's can have a strong prey drive.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

214. Provoked?

Obviously, my neighbor's collie provoked the pitbull next door simply by existing.

Yeah, I guess that was a "provoked" attack in the eyes of the dog. In the eyes of the law, it certainly wasn't. Thank God we distinguish between the two.

[JuniperLea]

258. Deja vu all over again, eh cuke?

I was seriously injured by a Jack Russell when I was 14. All I did was put a bowl of food down for him! If my grandfather hadn't been there, I'm sure I would have required reconstructive surgery. A year later, I was bitten by a German Shepherd while retrieving my softball, which landed in his yard... I didn't see him until he was headed for my face... I jumped and he bit me in the stomach instead, thankfully. The owner came out and yelled for me NOT to run, knowing the dog would give chase. I think that saved me some serious injury. I shouldn't have gone anywhere near that yard!

I still love dogs... big ones, little ones, pit bulls, shepherds, dobermans... I really like big ones best... big teeth and all. Dogs are very loving beasts.

You are right... dogs are territorial and prey driven. Running is something that prey does.

[cuke]

288. And as your experiences show

one can easily provoke a dog without intending to do so. IMO some attacks are labeled "unprovoked" simply because the people doing the label don't understand what provokes a dog

[JuniperLea]

299. Exactomundo! ... eom

[incapsulated]

144. When dogs are let loose

They will eventually, left alone, revert back to their natural state. They form packs. They HUNT.

I wouldn't want to run into a pack of wild dogs of ANY breed.

This was a mini-pack.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

153. "One" dog does not make a pack

One pitbull broke into my neighbor's yard and malled her collie so badly it was strewn across the backyard.

Dangerous. Aggressive. Vicious. Mean.

It was put down.

Good riddance.

[cuke]

158. Wrong

It's a pack on one. Dog behavior is dog behavior. On their own, dogs hunt

[midlife_mo_Jo]

161. One dog makes a pack?

And please explain the hierarchy in that pack?

[incapsulated]

There were TWO DOGS in this story

Not YOUR STORY. Which is why a called it a mini-pack, who knows how long they had been running loose.

[cuke]

168. Dog packs don't have a heirarchy

There's a pack leader, and alpha female, and the other dogs. Stop watching Dog Whisperer and read up on dog psychology

[incapsulated]

196. Uh...hierarchy?

I've watched dog whisperer and he only refers to a pack leader not some complex hierarchy.

[cuke]

259. Dogs have no heirarchy

They relate to each other as dom/sub, but there isn't a "pecking order". A dog can dominate a dog that is dominated by another dog that is submissive to the first dog.

There is a lot of misunderstandings when it comes to dominance and pack behavior

[KurtNYC]

182. and is their natural food collies ???

:rofl:

Your defense of them is that they are natural cannibals ? Hooray!

[renie408]

192. Hey, back off. He has trained forty to sixty dogs or more and has read dog psychology.

Have some respect for the expert.

[cuke]

209. In the wild, dogs attack other dogs

I'm surprised that you dont know that. I'm surprised that anyone over the age of 10 doesn't know that

[incapsulated]

165. I was referring to the OP story

Not yours.

See, I love all animals. But I don't project human qualities on them and judge them as "bad". It's an animal. It didn't do it to be "mean" or to hurt people's feelings. It is an animal that was not given the control it needed so it went agro and killed another animal.

[cuke]

212. mmJ thinks this thread is about his/her encouters

[renie408]

217. When everybody knows it is all about your professional dog training expertise and fabulous

fact finding skills.

[cuke]

223. Tsk, tsk

Running out of arguments?

I still haven't heard how you train your dogs

[midlife_mo_Jo]

218. MMJ

is pointing out the similarity of the attacks.

A common element in many of these pitbull attacks - very little provocation, and that's one reason why they make the news.

[cuke]

224. No you're not

You are talking about the two encounters you had, as if anecdotes were statistics.

Dogs rarely (the exception is dogs with "canine rage syndrome") attack without provocation of some kind.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

232. Pit Bulls make the news precisely BECAUSE THEY ATTACK UNPROVOKED

How about this?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/29/national/main1453798.shtml

or this?

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/04/11/news/californian/23_29_184_10_04.txt

or this?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2003/11/23/horse23.DTL

or this?

http://www.kirotv.com/news/13943140/detail.html

or this?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-02-florida-dogattack_N.htm

or this?

http://www.nbc5.com/news/14348775/detail.html?subid=10101401

I could find more for you, but I think I've made my case.

If you will tell me they were "provoked" in one way or the other, your definition of provoked is a lot different from mine. Just existing is provocation to some of these dogs. That makes them aggressive and dangerous.

And by the way, I realize some of these dogs may be badly bred. Heck, I was looking at AKC registered golden retrievers a few years ago, and the conformation was awful. That doesn't mean they weren't golden retrievers - or "mostly" golden retrievers.

[cuke]

235. Nope, none were unprovoked

I realize that some people aren't as big on science as I am, but things do happen for a reason.

And yes, I am using a different definition of provoked. I'm using the one animal psychologists use. It has nothing to do with the intentions of the victim. If the victim behaves in a manner similar to prey, then the victim has provoked the attack, albeit unknowingly.

In addition, there is something known as Displacement Aggression where an animal (including humans) will direct their aggression at something other than the entity that is provoking the aggression. When humans do it, it's called "striking out blindly". When dogs do it, it's an "unprovoked attack"

It's not that "just existing" provokes these dogs who engage in displacement aggression. The aggression was provoked, just by someone other than the victim

[midlife_mo_Jo]

242. Sure, some woman in her bed

is attacked by pit bulls coming through her doggie door.

If these dogs require SO LITTLE TO BE PROVOKED, then they need to be outlawed or more closely regulated.

Most dogs have a higher threshold for provocation, as they should if they are going to live as domesticated animals.

If walking your dog and minding your own business is provocation, these dogs need to be outlawed.

I've been barked at and growled at by territorial dogs when I've been walking in my neighborhood, but they don't tear me to shreds.

[cuke]

253. Wrong again

Dogs, by nature, go to great lengths to avoid fighting. A dog that is so aggressive that it attacks for seemingly "no reason at all" was not created in one instant. That's a dog that has been mistreated or neglected over a long period of time. Just because you don't get to witness the provocation doesn't mean it didn't happen.


"Most dogs have a higher threshold for provocation, as they should if they are going to live as domesticated animals. "

Wrong again. Small dogs have a lower threshold than most PB's

"If walking your dog and minding your own business is provocation, these dogs need to be outlawed. "

You might want to read what you're responding to. I clearly stated that the provocation need not be made by the victim. If a dog has been tied out for long periods of time, and people passing by tease the dog, then that dog will "learn" that passerbys are a threat. If you walk your dog past a dog like that, it is indeed a provocation as far as the aggresive dog is concerned.

*YOU* may not have provoked the dog, but the dog was provoked (by previous passerbys who had teased the tied up dog)

[NashVegas]

320. Existing = Provoking and Wearing a Short Skirt = Inviting Rape

Your arguments are full of shit.

Your claim that horses were responsible for more deaths was a load of shit, too.

[Greyskye]

271. Yep. Look at Tony Blair if you need an example.

[nonconformist]

156. Because there's a difference between a BB gun shot to the leg...

and a shotgun blast to the face.

Both acts of aggression, but one is far more deadly.

That said, I'm not anti-pit bull (or Rottweiler, what have you) to the point where I think they should all be spayed/neutered and weeded out. Just, I would never own one and I wouldn't allow my children to play at a house where one lived. And I would be none too happy if one of my neighbors had one and didn't keep it on a VERY short leash at all times.

I do, however, think it's pretty amazing that when something like this happens (which is fairly regularly), there are always people that are screaming about how they have/know a pit bull that is the SWEETEST DOG EVAH. Yeah, that's fabulous.

[cuke]

170. All dogs should be kept on a leash

and all acts of aggression should be considered if you're trying to figure out which dogs are aggressive. I don't know why that's so hard to understand

[renie408]

188. So, as a professional dog trainer, you think all dogs should be kept on a leash?

Is this at all times? We live on a seventy acre farm and our dogs are not on a leash at all times.

[cuke]

216. Or fenced in

Please show me a professional dog person who says it's OK to let dogs run loose

I rural areas dogs can be attacked by other animals, shot by someone who feels threatened or just likes to shoot dogs. The dogs can be stolen (some rings have been known to drive through a rural area picking up all the dogs that running free) and sold, possibly for medical research.

But since you claim to be an expert, why don't you tell us about your seven dogs and how you train them? Tell us all about the methods you use, and the various theories concerning dog psychology that you use to interpret your dog's behavior.

[renie408]

219. No no...I specifically said I WASN'T an expert. You are the one who has trained 'SCORES' of dogs

and I was going to ask you the same thing, only I figured you can Google Cesar Milan as quickly as the next person even if you can't find a link to prove your claim that labs are more aggressive than pits.

I use a reward method, I guess. I am not big on punishment and believe in praise. Works well with horses, too.

[cuke]

225. Show me a canine professional who says it's OK to let dogs run loose

It doesn't have to be you.

"I use a reward method, I guess. "

You guess?

You don't even know how you train your dogs, and you make fun of me?

And let's not forget that you're afraid of PB's even though you doh't know what they look like

[renie408]

312. And let's not forget that you are unable to pick the pitbull out of your own lineup.

I am not a professional dog trainer. Neither are you. You want to say you are, but you have made zip effort to back any of your claims up. You can't even identify the pitbull in an array YOU posted. You have made rather outrageous claims about having trained 'scores' of dogs. Were you training them one at a time or many at one time? Cause let's just say you were training three at a time. 'Scores' implies something over sixty dogs, I would guess. And it probably takes about six months, wouldn't you say, to get good basic training on a dog. So, training three dogs at a time for six months apiece, to train sixty dogs would take ten years. You are saying you spent ten years of your adult life as a dog trainer and have no way to prove that? Not one word of your own training method? I just said I owned a lot of dogs and grew up with them. I also did some volunteer work and worked at a small animal vet. Ask me anything about horse training, which I have done my whole life. I use a classical correct approach based on dressage fundamentals. But gosh, you haven't said anything like that about dog training. Makes me almost think you are blowing smoke.

[uppityperson]

104. jaw strength thing is an urban legend.

[incapsulated]

115. No, they are bred to fight and if you ever had to deal with one

fighting with you, you wouldn't be so flippant. The muscles in their chest and jaws were BRED to be strong, this is no legend.

[cuke]

119. Yes, they have strong jaws

but there are dogs with stonger jaws. It's the "locking jaw" thats the urbal legend

[incapsulated]

124. The difference is...

They really were bred to do things like grip, it's part of fighting but it isn't necessarily aggressive.

It's just like my Husky would pull my arm off, they are bred to PULL, it's what they love to do.

Dogs like this need LOTS of activity and outlet for that energy. I used to have to walk my half-Siberian Husky 2 hours a day.

[flvegan]

155. Christ, yes it IS a legend. I also have FACTS

Locking jaws AND incredible bite strength are both false.

Dr. Brady Barr of National Geographic (Dangerous Encounters: Bite Force, 8pm est 8/18/2005) – Dr. Barr measured bite forces of many different creatures. Domestic dogs were included in the test.

Here are the results of all of the animals tested:

Humans: 120 pounds of bite pressure

Domestic dogs: 320 LBS of pressure on avg. A German Shepard, American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) and Rottweiler were tested using a bite sleeve equipped with a specialized computer instrument. The APBT had the least amount of pressure of the 3 dogs tested.

Wild dogs: 310 lbs

Lions: 600 lbs

White sharks: 600 lbs

Hyenas: 1000 lbs

Snapping turtles: 1000 lbs

Crocodiles: 2500 lbs

[incapsulated]

172. lol, Rottweilers and Shepards are also VERY STRONG DOGS

Where did I say Pits had more strength than ANY OTHER DOG?

[flvegan]

175. You responded to the jaw strength issue

as being an urban legend with a "no..."

So, it's now proven that yes, it is an urban legend. Move along.

[incapsulated]

180. "Move along?"

Who the fuck do you think you are?

I responded that Pits are very strong and can kill you and that strength is no legend.

I never said they were the strongest dogs in the fucking world.

So you "move along", buddy, you have no point.

[flvegan]

184. You disputed that the uber strength of the pit bull jaw was urban legend.

It is, as shown. Are pits strong? Yes. Can they kill? Sure. Any dog can in the right situation.

Yes, I have no point, obviously.

[incapsulated]

189. I said their strength was no urban legend

It isn't. They along with a few other breeds are incredibly strong and I have struggled with my share of large dogs. The urban legend is based on some truth, I don't want my arm caught in the mouths of any of those breeds going agro. People focus on the pits because assholes get them and encourge them to be aggressive so they are far more likely to be attacked by them than the other breeds who are also powerful. Hence the "urban legend". However, it is based on some facts.

You came along with your little stats that they aren't as strong as rotts or sheps and if my argument was that those dogs were weak and pits were the strongest of them all you might have a point.

But I didn't and you don't.

[LeftyMom]

300. Oh my.

:popcorn:

I don't know if you know the credentials of who you're arguing with, but you're going to get your ass handed to you in a minute so I figured I'd get a good seat.

Unless he's busy with the dogs, in which case I'll do it myself. :D

[NashVegas]

323. WHOA! ARI FLEISCHER! WELCOME TO DU!

Hey baby ...

[Mojorabbit]

332. I got nailed

by a snapping turtle. Nasty bite. But then my african grey parrot also has bitten me a few times. A macaw can lop off a finger from what I have read. Parrots can be trained. Snapping turtles not.
I have a new weiner dog who showed up a few months ago. He is not allowed around anyone unsupervised as I don't know him yet and he is hyper. My coonhound is a sweetie and gets along with rabbits and cats and every person he has come across in the past ten years. I still supervise him when new people are around.
I feel it is part of my responsibility to make sure everyone is safe in my house.

[BadgerLaw2010]

123. No, jaw locking is the myth. They do indeed have extremely strong jaws.

[XemaSab]

341. I got attacked by a chihuahua as a toddler

They're shitty little dogs. :(

[kestrel91316]

74. When I still worked on dogs, Rotties were the ONE breed that

I was genuinely afraid of. For good reason - I had several instances where they attacked me UNPROVOKED in the exam room and the owners sometimes even let go of the leash, or were simply ineffective at controlling the dog. Interestingly, each and every time the owner swore that the dog didn't have an aggressive bone in its body.

[renie408]

79. Shar Peis. I was scared to death of shar peis. I got jumped by one just for

reaching for the leash. I wouldn't blame you for being cautious with Rotties, chows, pits, GSD's or shar peis.

[kestrel91316]

138. GSD's can go either way. Chows - all bad IMHO. Rotties - NEVER to

be trusted. Pits - amazingly loving toward their vets. Shar Peis - not great, but not terribly dangerous. Cockers - snappish biters. Dobies - cowards. Labs and Goldens - goofballs.

[cuke]

227. GSD's can be skittish. Rotties are very protective - always use caution

Chows are an odd breed. I don't have much experience with them. They tend to be the opposite of the type of dog I like. They can be very standoffish. They are not as attached to humans (other than their family) as most other dogs.

I have a theory that all the "bully breeds" like PB's, Rotties, etc are very attached to their families and to people in general and that's why some of them become aggressive. They are morely likely to see something as a threat to their people. I also think they are more sensitive, and need training that focuses on rewards more than other breeds. Punishment tends to make these dogs more reactive.

[kestrel91316]

239. The problem I always had with Chows was that they are impossible

to "read". All that fur makes their body language and facial expression hard to see, and they really never give any visible warning before letting loose with a full-on attack. So you just had to know it was coming by definition.

[cuke]

245. I'm not very familiar with chows

A friend of mine had one many years ago, and I've seen a few other chows and chow mixes. Not enough to know about reading them. They sound like a lot of terriers who sometimes go from zero to sixty in one swift step.

Dogs have the same problem with dogs that are hard to read. Dogs usually engage in a lot of body language when they meet. If a dog's physical characteristics make it unable to give certain clear signals, the other dogs may assume it's a threat. Some kennels and day cares don't take certain breeds because they're hard to read.

[seabeyond]

295. my other neighbor has a rot. really a sweetie... they say. i try to be friends

i call out to her. hi oki.... i say. real friendly voice. only once in the ten years has it gotten out. the woman caught it in my yard. i looked at it and said, it looks like a damn bear, doesnt even look like a dog. geez, is it big. yup. scared of it too. but then as i say, neighbor keeps that one locked up

[grace0418]

136. Children are 900 times more likely to be bitten by dogs than mail carriers.

Well, I should think so. Since when do mail carriers go around biting children?

[JuniperLea]

251. We should outlaw all dogs!

Bastards should never be allowed near people!!!


I don't really need to tag this, do I?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. By far?

27 more deaths than rottweilers over 10 years is "by far?"

Please.

"Pitbulls accounted for by far the largest number of fatalities, but are, by far, NOT the most popular dog in America."

Actually, the CDC's counting all "pit-bull types" which is several different breeds and mutts as well. So I in numbers I'm willing to bet there are far, far more than Rotts. If you normalized, the discrepancy, already small, would disappear.

Plus, you've got 66 total deaths over ten years. That's how many people are killed by lightning every year.

All your numbers show is that being afraid of pit bulls as a breed is fundamentally stupid.

[renie408]

29. Gee,I would have thought that pitbulls and rottweilers being responsible for over 50% of dog attacks

would mean that being afraid of them was reasonable.

Go figure.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. Gee whiz.

I would have thought that you warning about the CDC numbers against pit bulls would mean they'd support your argument.

:rofl:

[cuke]

37. Most dog bites don't come from loose dogs attacking strangers

which is what happens in most of the fatal cases.

Most bites occur while the dog is in the home, and most bites are to children younger than 14.

Kind of odd that such vicous dogs are biting their owner's children and not strangers. Why do you think that is?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. Why do I think it is?

Irresponsible parents + curious kid + grumpy old dog trying to take a nap

But I don't believe in this pitbull = bad bullshit.

[renie408]

57. Laugh all you want. Pits are responsible for nearly twice as many fatal attacks than the next breed.

How does that NOT support what I said? OH!! I get what the little smiley is doing. He is SPINNING. Just like you are trying to spin the facts to support your asinine comments.

[cuke]

63. Why do you ignore non-fatal dog bites?

If PB's are so vicious, why are they biting family members but not strangers?

"How does that NOT support what I said? "

Because you take one figure out of many and ignore the rest.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Pitbulls kill less people than horses do.

So being afraid of pitbulls, is very, very stupid.

The little smiley is rolling on the floor because he's laughing at you and your failed arguments so hard he can't do anything else.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

84. When was the last time a horse tore down a fence in suburbia

to kill the neighbor's dog?

Do you know what a collie looks like after a pitbull has ripped it's body to shreds? Can you imagine finding your beloved dog like that? My neighbor was traumatized after finding her beloved collie. And I know so many people who have similar stories to tell about pitbulls in their neighborhood or town. It's just not that uncommon.

[cuke]

108. So if you're killed by a horse, it's OK as long as the fence isn't breeched?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

126. THINK!

If you're killed by a horse, you were probably riding it or in some way associating with it.

My friend's collie was in it's own yard, minding it's own business, when that damn pitbull attacked it. And isn't it funny how many attacks are just like that with pitbulls?

[cuke]

137. THINK

There's a diference between "danger" and "aggression". The claim is that PB's are more "aggressive" than other breeds.

You have yet to say anything intelligent about aggression. Instead, you have confused it danger

An aggressive poodle is more dangerous than a gentle PB

[renie408]

127. If a horse attacks you, you have done something to piss it off. REALLY piss it off.

Horses are on the wrong end of the food chain to randomly attack. They will attack people if they are cornered and have no other options. But actually, they generally just become more and more docile. Hence the expression 'breaking'. Horses would way rather run than attack. I did hear a story once about a three year old stud colt that broke out of a paddock and attacked a kid who was playing with a plastic baseball bat. It turned out that the kid's father regularly used the baseball bat as a 'training aid' (Read: "The father regularly beat the shit out of the colt with the bat"). But that is about the only time I have heard of a horse going out of its way to attack somebody.

[incapsulated]

85. lol

I love Ptts, but this whole thread is funneh.

:P

[renie408]

88. Oh for chrissakes...horses don't kill people by attacking them, dumbass.

They kill them when people fall off of them. Which people can generally control easily by NOT GETTING ON THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Jesus, don't allow the dogged (pun intended) pursuit of an argument to force you into saying stupid shit like that.

[incapsulated]

91. And if no one rode horses and no one owned ANY breed of dog

We would be left with A PLAGUE OF MINIATURE HORSES RUNNING WILD!

[renie408]

100. Well, when you put it that way.... n/t

[KurtNYC]

145. perhaps he thinks people should ride pitbulls

it would be safer per his stats

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

338. So? The people are still dead.

They should simply put all those horses to sleep so nobody gets hurt again.

[Clark2008]

24. How about the stats that count, then?

Hubby's in insurance and they absolutely will not write a homeowners policy for you if you have a pitbull, a huskey, a dobe, a rottie and a couple of other breeds.

[cuke]

39. I'm not sure how that counts

It certainly isn't putting PB's in a class of their own.

[Clark2008]

133. Sorry - this thread evolved as I was typing.

I was simply commenting that there ARE certain breeds of dogs, Pits included, that are classified as threats.

:hi:

[cuke]

154. OK

and actually, I don't have any problem with that. There are "bully breeds" and they do tend to be more aggressive than other breeds, so they do represent a greater risk. However, the differences are mostly attributable to environment. The effects of genetics is marginal

[renie408]

190. Wait a minute...

THEY say that pits are a threat and that's OK. I say they are and you argue like I said you mother was the bearded woman in a carnival. What the fuck?

[cuke]

220. Tell the truth

You have claimed that PB's are the most aggressive breed, or one of the most aggressive breeds based solely on stats concerning fatal bites. I told you that is stupid

Don't pretend that I've said PB's are always safe or that they are the least aggresive of dog breeds. Since you need things spelled out to you:

ANY DOG CAN BE DANGEROUS

[renie408]

315. Please cut and paste where I have said that pitbulls are the most aggressive breed.

And I have also said more than once and in this thread that any dog can be dangerous. I have never said and haven't pretended that you said anything about pits. What I have said REPREATEDLTY is that it is ridiculous to treat pitbulls like labradors or to try and pretend that they are the same kind of dog. What are labradors bred for? Retrieving game. What are pitbulls bred for? Hmmm....

You seem intent on proving that ALL dogs are bred to be completely equal. That if you own a chihuahua it is no different from owning a pitbull. I think that is frankly stupid. Golden Retrievers are not as likely to hurt you as a pitbull. Does that mean that NO Golden Retriever will ever hurt someone or that ALL pitbulls will? Of course not. But what purpose does it serve to pretend that they are the exact same kind of dog? They aren't.

[xultar]

40. I saw a 1/2 starved pit bull on animal planet last night that despite her condition

she was a loving dog who was adopted by a recent retired couple. You don't say all blacks are athletes. Why colour all pit bulls with a broad brush ahe?


The typo thing was just funny as fuck to me personally. I suck @typing too.
I love all dogs. There isn't a dog on the planet I don't love.

[renie408]

72. I didn't say 'all'.

Listen, you are preaching to the choir about dogs. We have six. Shit, seven. We just took over a friend's GSD because she can't take care of him any more. Anyway, I have all different breeds and have all my life. We are settling on GSD's lately. I have found I really love that breed. But I would tell you straight up that they are not a dog for anybody. They require a lot of attention and have a strong work drive. In the wrong hands, they can do bad things. I ahve a female that I got from the local GSD rescue. She had been in four homes before she came here. They were getting panicked because they said that if she came back to them one more time, they were going to have to put her down. We live on a big farm and I don't work outside the home. It took several months, but she finally settled in, we had a lifestyle that suited her and she is the best dog we have ever owned. The thing is, there were four families before us that stuck her in a crate all day while they went to work. It drove her crazy. GSD's aren't suitable for that. Instead of pretending that they would be, whoever sold her to those people should have told them the truth. I feel the same way about pitbulls. They are GENERALLY not a dog for just anybody. Pretending that they are is going to cause more problems than respecting them for what they are.

And I KNOW about individuals within a breed. I have TB horses. Most people will tell you that they are nuts. I have two that are so laid back a toddler can ride them. BUT they are individuals within a breed. The reputation the breed has is earned.

I am not picking on or making fun of pitbulls. I am picking on and making fun of the people who leap onto any suggestion that pits are just wonderful family pets getting a bad rep and that they are just like golden retrievers or labradors.

[Dora]

10. Wow, just wow. I'm not a pit bull fan, I'm not even a "dog person."

But even I can recognize the immaturity in your response.

Flamebait much?

[renie408]

15. I am a dog person. And a horse person.

And every time any kind of pitbull attack gets mentioned, there are people who leap to the defense of that breed and say that pitbulls are just like any other dog. Well, they aren't. I have been over this and over this with people. The best way to handle a breed like a pitbull isn't to try and convince people that they are just like labradors. The best way is to INFORM people that these are dogs that aren't playing when they go after something. I also have had pitbulls come after my dogs and my horses. These dogs are not small eared labradors.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. It seems like every time there's a pitbull attack...

there's a bunch of whiny nuts show up ranting about pitbulls. You don't see them whining about labradors every time there's a labrador attack. Probably because people don't post labrador attack stories.

[Javaman]

73. maybe if they changed the name of the breed?

after all "pitbull" doesn't really exude the concept of cuddliness.

given the fact that they were originally bred to be fighting dogs, I believe the flamebate poster is going to have a very long uphill battle on this one. but perhaps the flame poster likes it that way? :shrug:

[uppityperson]

99. Problem is the name has been expanded to include many other dogs.

Many dog who aren't pitbulls are called that. My sister's big headed dog disappeared, we think someone shot and killed it. Post #36 shows her. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2135103&mesg_id=2135581

Find the pitbull here...
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

[renie408]

141. As whiny and nutty as to compare falling off a horse to getting attacked by a pitbull?

You mean, that whiny and nutty?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

177. ROFLOL

The comparison is kinda' funny, huh?

[renie408]

142. Dupe n/t

[cuke]

19. Labradors rate high on the aggression scale

Higher than pit bulls. And most dog bites are done by SMALL DOGS

[renie408]

31. Can you get me a link for that? n/t

[cuke]

47. I'll see

In the meantime:
http://dogobedienceadvice.com/which_dog_breeds_are_most_aggressive.php
http://www.gomestic.com/Pets/Five-Potentially-Aggressive-Dog-Breeds-You-May-Not-Know-About.51557

Note how many small breeds are on the aggressive list

[renie408]

105. Oh, hey, I get that part, too.

But little dogs tend to be 'snappers'. We have a rat terrier. She is the only biter we have. If she snaps at you, it might break the skin. She weighs MAYBE fifteen pounds, though, and I doubt she could hang off a tire by her teeth. Pitbulls are bred with some fierce equipment.

My mom has a pitbull and it scares the shit out of me. That dog is just not right. I know they can be good dogs, but I personally have known quite a few that just weren't. And I don't think that the media has it out for pitbulls. When two GSDX's attacked and killed a kid in our area, it was reported on for days.

[cuke]

109. No, you get very little

You want to measure aggression in dogs by ignoring the majority of aggresive acts and focusing on just one very rare form of aggression. You obviously don't know about aggression or dogs.

[renie408]

146. LOL...this has been fun. But I have to go feed the seven dogs I know so little about

Hey, if you are lucky, maybe they will eat me instead!! None of them are pitbulls, so that would make you happy.

[cuke]

162. Do you really think that owning dogs makes you an expert?

[renie408]

167. No. And what qualifies you to be an expert? n/t

[cuke]

171. Being trained by an expert and training scores of dogs

That makes me an expert

So where did you learn about dogs?

[renie408]

185. I invented them. I also train seeing eye dogs, agility dogs and those St Bernard's that rescue

people in avalanches. Gee, I am not sure how either one of us can prove our 'expertise', so I will tell the truth.

I have owned dogs all my life, I worked at a small animal vet's for a couple of years, I have done SOME training, but nothing fancy, before we had kids we volunteered with the ASPCA and the Humane Society and I volunteered at the local county animal shelter. I occasionally foster dogs at my house.

Hey, if you have trained 'scores' of dogs, I bet you have a website or something. I'll tell you what...you show me yours and I'll show you mine. I have one for our farm.

[cuke]

228. I don't believe you

You have said things no dog professional I know would say. In fact, I've heard many make fun of some of the ideas you have expressed in this thread

I no longer train dogs professionally (ie for money).

[Critters2]

243. Do you have a website?

Hard to imagine such an expert isn't either advertising for business, or sharing your expertise with the world. URL, please?

[cuke]

256. *yawn*

Asked and answered

[Critters2]

262. Where? nt

[renie408]

302. No. You mean you don't REALLY believe that I invented dogs??

That was sarcasm.

Jeez.

[kestrel91316]

FYI, as a vet I always found Labs to be GREAT dogs, very trustworthy

as a breed.

But then I also noted that put bull types were THE VERY BEST-BEHAVED breed at the vet office, lol. Go figure.

[cuke]

111. Generally speaking, there are few stray Labs

when compared to the # of stray PB's, which is what I attribute a large part of the descrepancy on

[renie408]

159. Need another link on that, too. n/t

[cuke]

166. Go work for a rescue or animal control

[renie408]

169. I have.

I have worked with both the ASPCA in our area and for a very brief time I volunteered at the local animal shelter to play with dogs. I couldn't take it. I also worked at a small animal vet's for a couple of years. I am keeping one dog right now that is waiting for a new home. Next??

[MiniMe]

257. I do volunteer for a lab rescue

Any dog can bite.There are labs that bites, there are goldens that bite. I have 1 of each, and I can't imagine either one of them biting anybody, but I would never say never. There are labs that are agressive, and yes, we do see them in rescue. However, they are the exception. I have fostered labs for 5 years, and both of my boys came from rescue. A few of my fosters were mildly dog agressive, but I never had one that was people agressive, although we have had a few in the rescue. The rescue I volunteer for puts those dogs down because we can't take a chance, and because it is usually not a lab trait.

I believe that there are more bites by labs and goldens than any other breed, simply because they are the most popular breeds. If you have more dogs of that breed, you will have more bites, it makes sense. The question is how many bites are there per thousand labs? I don't have that statistic, I don't even know if it exists, but I would suspect that it isn't that high.

I had one foster that came back to the rescue because a mother said that the dog had bit her son. Well, I took her one step at a time, and found out that she was an extremely mouth dog, and she tended to throw her head back and forth with her mouth open when she was cuddling. I talked to the mother, and she was not supervising her kids with a brand new dog and didn't see it happen. That dog did not have an agressive bone in her body, but I can see how she could hit an arm, a face, a leg, whatever, skin in general with a tooth, but not be biting. I suspect that is what happened in this situation, but I will never know for sure. She certainly had a bad habit. She got adopted to a family without kids (we try not to put the dogs in a situation to fail), and we never heard another word about her, other than what a great dog she was.

Despite being the most popular dog, labs have 1 fatality listed from 1979-1998, and a few more for mixed lab attacks while a purebred pitbull accounted for 66 fatalities. I have met plenty of nice pit bulls, sweet as can be,I would trust them with a baby. I have met very few agressive pit bulls. However, I do think that some (note some, not all) breeders are breeding for agression, especially those that fight pit bulls. Labs are being overbred now due to their popularity, and most of the agressive labs I have seen were from bad breeding. That is just what I have seen, and I'm not saying that it is always the case.

[cuke]

263. Very interesting

Thanks for posting that.

I was under the impression that there were very few stray labs. I guess what they say is true - you can teach an old dog new tricks

[MiniMe]

266. Thank-you for acknowledging that

We have about 70 in our system right now, we are a pretty big rescue. We adopted out 17 at our adoption day last Saturday, and 4 more over the weekend. And there are more waiting to come in. Thats the curse of being the most popular breed, more dogs equals more strays.

[MiniMe]

268. Just one other thing, because I have seen this too

Because of the overbreeding, some labs and goldens are coming in that are very fearful, a bad trait for a lab, but again, due to poor breeding. Being very fearful can lead to a "fear" bite, that isn't agressive, it is more like a "leave me alone" bite. Still no excuse for it, but I'm sure that is a factor in a good number of lab bites, and golden bites too.

[cuke]

294. Thanks again

I'm saddened to hear about all those stray labs. I had a couple. Incredible dogs. It's no wonder they;re so popular

[BadgerLaw2010]

118. Labs bite more because there are more labs. Per-capita, lab is very low.

[uppityperson]

26. Labrador attacks aren't sexy, don't get as much coverage.

I've been bit by a small mixed breed, a labrador and almost by a St.Bernard. The owners of each knew their dog had issues but let me go near them when I was a child. "oh yes, he bites" was the statement (paraphrased) by each after getting bit. Any dog can bite.

[Roon]

301. That's another thing that pisses me off about owners of dogs that bite

They will bring their dogs to Christmas, to the cabin, picnics, etc. and if a kid approaches the dog the owner will say, "Watch it, he bites!"...why bring the fucking dog if you know he bites and there are kids around? I just don't get dog owners sometimes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Oh, you're a horse fan, eh?

http://asci.uvm.edu/equine/law/articles/deaths.htm

Well according to the University of Vermont, horses kill more people than pitbulls.

:rofl:

[NashVegas]

107. Really?

When the rider was mounted, death resulted from a fall in 85% of the cases (52 of 61). During the last 10 years, this percentage has increased, from 85% (22 of 27) to 88% (30 of 34).

The 15 percent mounted who did not die from a fall (9 of 61), died from the following causes: hit by car while riding horse; gunshot; horse spooked into large truck, went through windshield; galloping and hit telephone pole; rode horse into guywire, horse fell on her; hit by vehicle; hit by vehicle; and drowned from riding horse into deep part of lake; horse reared hitting deceased’s head.

Of the 23 unmounted deaths, 9 were caused by the horse, 4 by motor vehicles, 3 in horse-drawn vehicles 3 from loose horses, 2 while leading a horse and 2 from medical causes. The means by which these deaths can be prevented is education of the horse community for the changes that need to be made in each situation.

Of the 9 that were caused by the horse there is no breakdown of whether or not the horse attacked the victim or the injury was inadvertent.

What % of Pitbull-related injuries or deaths are not a direct result of an attack?

[renie408]

176. I am not going to bite on that pitbull question, but I can answer the one about horses.

I would be willing to guarantee that ALL of the deaths were inadvertant. Bad things can happen when you get between a scared 1200 pound animal and what it perceives to be its avenue of escape. I have known people to have bad accidents when they were trying to load/unload a horse from a trailer, etc., and the horse spooked.

[cuke]

229. Dead is dead, right?

[renie408]

317. Can you read what you are writing? Does that really make sense to you?

Never let the pursuit of an argument force you into saying truly stupid shit. It doesn't make you or the point you are trying to make sound any better.

If you cannot see the difference between being attacked by a dog and getting in the way of a horse that is trying to run from something that has scared it, you know jack all about animals and are more full of shit than I realized.

[Dora]

38. I'm not arguing the merits of animal ownership or the viciousness of any breed.

Your response to the OP was deliberately antagonistic with the intent of pissing off people who love their pit bulls.

You're behaving like a shit-stirrer, and it stinks.

[RamboLiberal]

45. Everyone should go to Google News

and enter "pit bull attack". You'll get a number of pages of recent horrific attacks from all over the country. Then do "labrador attack". You'll get some but nothing like the pit bull attacks.

Like I said in another post I have nothing against pit bulls but I do wish they'd become less popular especially among the idiot dog owners who want them only for their toughness, macho image, dogfighting, etc. I'd also love to see the crappy breeders put out of business.

I can't blame some communities for banning the breed. What I'd like to see is mandatory spay/neuter laws and if you want to be a breeder you'd have to pay a license fee and regularly be inspected. If too many of your pups get in to trouble with serious attacks even after they are off your property then your license is pulled and all dogs on your property have to be spayed/neutered.

[cuke]

56. Yes, because we know the media never engages in sensationalism

[RamboLiberal]

210. Bull - any dog attack that results in death is making the local news

In the past you'd get the occassional Rottie, German Sheperd, Dobie fatal attack but good lord nowhere near the pit bull attacks. And I've never seen one "breed" become so damn popular as this one has especially in urban areas.

[Critters2]

244. If it bleeds it leads,

dog attacks are sexy, no matter what the breed. But there are more pit bull attacks, so more put bull attack stories.

[uppityperson]

66. "Pit bull attack!!" sells papers. "Labrador attack" doesn't. Here is a fun thing to try.

Find the pit bull. Anyone who has a dog to mistreat or to try to turn aggressive has a problem and they should not be doing this. As I told the owner of a fox terrier that bit my young son, lock it up, keep it away from kids or I'll get rid of it. He got really pissed when I reported him to animal control.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

Edited to add, give this website to your local newspaper reporters and editors. See how they do. "pitbull OMG!" sells papers.

[renie408]

113. I am guessing number 7. Number 3 looked close, but the ears don't seem right. n/t

[cuke]

122. So you're afraid of PB's, but unsure of what they look like?

[renie408]

163. Which one is it? n/t

[cuke]

181. LOL! Looks like I was right

[renie408]

187. You mean you are defending pitbulls and you don't know which one it is?

I asked because I was wondering if you knew. Since you are a professional dog trainer, I am sure you do. So, which one is it?

[renie408]

191. Hellooo??? Waiting for a reply down here...n/t

[renie408]

193. Still waiting...Do you know which one was the pitbull or not? n/t

[cuke]

230. Don't hold your breath

I don't know why you thnk I owe you anything after saying you're afraid of PB's even though you don't know what they look like.

So go ahead and keep pointing out how I'm not answering this question. I'll just keep pointing out how you're afraid of PB's but don't know what they look like

[renie408]

304. Yeah, boy, that really shows me. Refusing to prove that you know jackshit about dogs

really hurts me.

[uppityperson]

270. #7 is wrong. Try again. I know which it is and it's not #7.

[renie408]

305. So, what breed of dog IS #7? n/t

[uppityperson]

308. Dogo Argentino

[renie408]

319. LOL...all right, I concede.

However, the picture of the Dogo Argentino on that array and the pictures of pits on the American Pit Bull registry website are virtually indistinguishable. And if you saw a dog that looked like that attacking somebody in the US, what are the odds that it is going to be a dog identical to a Pit Bull, only bred in Argentina?

I do get your point. A lot of box headed dogs get called pit bulls. Just like a lot of hairy black and tan dogs get called GSD's. The difference is that I am not trying to say that mitigates the fact that GSD's can be dangerous dogs. Or that I don't think people should be careful if they are going to own one. Particularly since there are lines of GSD's that are bred to be more suitable for pets and lines that are more suitable for aggressive jobs.

Look, there is nothing anybody can do about the redneck owner who wants a mean dog to somehow offset their own machismo (or lack thereof). If pitbulls are restricted, they will get something else. I hear Pomeranians are underrated for that purpose. But it doesn't take an asshole to get in trouble with a pitbull (or a German Shepherd or a Rottie or a Chow). Sometimes it just takes somebody who doesn't understand dogs too well. I don't think it does anybody or any dog any good to pretend that all dogs are created equal. That pitbulls are just like Golden Retrievers with short hair and small ears. They aren't.

[incapsulated]

241. Hey that is damn good

Here is a link to all the stories with pits being blamed for attacks by other breeds:

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/MistakenIdentity/WrongId.htm

[Roon]

306. Not one of those dogs on that test is a pitbull..eom

[uppityperson]

309. There is an American Pit Bull Terrier there.

click on a dog. It will take you to a bigger picture and the name.

[renie408]

324. The pit they used doesn't look so much like a pit, though. n/t

[uppityperson]

329. Which is indeed one of the problems. "pit" sells papers.

"I'm not sure what type dog it is, maybe a greyhound?" doesn't.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. That's exactly our point.

Pit bulls aren't really more dangerous, it just gets reported more.

It's a phony fear.

[theHandpuppet]

83. Thank you

It seems like when it comes to pit bulls some folks refuse to even acknowledge that different breeds of dogs exist for a reason. My two Scotties are not bird dogs, nor herders, nor lap dogs. They were bred to be ratters and have the instincts for it, doing a great job of keeping the vermin out of my garden and sheds. But because they are small doesn't mean they are proper dogs for small children -- in fact I would highly recommend against it, even though I've been a Scottie fancier all my life. Don't mistake them for Golden Retrievers. They make for better guard dogs than babysitters and don't suffer fools or small children gladly.

Luke, our black lab/shepherd/border collie mix, wouldn't know what to do with a mouse if one was crawling up his nose but he's an alert if neurotic guard dog who could play fetch until he dropped from exhaustion. Luke's also gay as Ian McKellan and loves kittens.

Bonnie, our sheltie/collie rescue, whom we lost just yesterday, was our gentle lady of the house. We will miss her quiet dignity so much.

:cry:

Humans have been breeding dogs for thousands of years -- for a reason. I don't expect a lhasa apso to hunt or a wolfhound to be a mouser. Pit bulls fight and kill because it's what humans have bred them to do. How much those traits may be exhibited in individual dogs may vary, but they were bred for fighting instincts and that includes certain physical charcteristics that make them especially dangerous when they do attack. So yes, we humans are responsible for this but the question becomes do we deny what we've done or face up to it and take some responsibility?

Rather than simply carry on a crusade of denial, those who care for pit bulls would be better served by focusing their energies towards stricter laws which regulate who can breed and/or own pit bulls.

[flvegan]

98. Sigh.

Your obvious bias aside, how specifically are pit bulls not "just like any other dog" and how specifically are every "other dog" just like to make this comparison. Should be interesting.

[cuke]

237. This "dog person" admits to being afraid of PB's but doesn't know what they look like

I asked her how she trains her dogs. Her response was basically "I don't know"

[seabeyond]

13. ya, i feel that loving everytime i go out front yard, and have to look neighbors house

to see if his lovable, cuddly pits are out and if i have to go back in my house, cause of all their niceness. not to mention a consistent watch over children if they dare to use their own front yard, ... wink

[uppityperson]

35. Ferocious pitbull mauling 2 kids

Too bad someone got scared, shot and killed her. Seriously.

[seabeyond]

131. so? what are you saying. i have two pits across my way

for a decade now. we have not been able to use our yard because of their right (yes, i agree it is their right) to own these dogs. and they have been known to get out. they are aggressive. we dont have warm and fuzzy feeling toward the lovable pit. there is no empathy or concern for the terror that my son twice has been chased into the house by the dogs. the only reply is,... ya but... what about my dog being shot and killed

this is how it works

my son looked at your pit just now, and your picture of the girls loving on it and said, oh what a cute doggie. with no anomosity even with their experience. and we can feel the pain you and yours experience at your loss. and i am sorry for your experience

and at that, it still does not make my experience of living across the street of two aggressive pits for over a decade with two little and growing children, always worry, always concern, never the feeling of being safe while in our front yardwhile it was.

on edit, re reading your post. someone got scared, shot and killed her. where? in your fenced back yard? or while it was roaming the nieghborhood around an unknown person that didnt know dog or the threat. you let you dog out of confined area? that is exactly what i have to deal with and the owner ASSURES me his dog wouldnt hurt anyone. i assure you as i am mowing my lawn and their gate in front is open i tell hubby i am mowing, he hears me scream, get the gun and SHOOT the damn dog.

[renie408]

194. I have pics of my kids wallowing all over my GSD's

Are you trying to say that GSD's have never hurt anybody or that someone would be unreasonable to be worried by a couple of aggressive GSD's?

Are you trying to say that since YOUR dog is good to YOUR family, that pitbulls are NEVER aggressive and any anxiety about them is undeserved?

I really don't understand what this picture is supposed to prove.

[seabeyond]

226. point seems to be see how friendly. so allow to wander neighborhood without restraint

because really, they will not harm your little child out in the front yard... promise.
boggles the mind

until my child is mauled. then... not the pit, pit didnt do it, not the pits fault.... it is the OWNER who didnt raise and socialize properly and allowed to wander the neighborhood

and a parent whose job is to protect the child takes a risk? a chance? with the life of their children?

i left this thread, yet still come back to this thread not getting it. is the poster owning the fact their pit was not kept confined? and is that anyone elses problem but the owner of the pit?

[cuke]

231. umm, renie thinks it's OK to let dogs roam free

renie doesn't understand Instinctual Drift and Prey Drive

Even the nicest, sweetest, most gentle dog can be dangerous in the right circumstances

[seabeyond]

234. i have had a dog for years that have never left my yard, ever.

it is a little beagle. doesnt shit in other peoples yard. only my yard and i clean it up. doesnt bother or terrorize the neighbors. my responsiblity as a pet owner.

i feel strongly about that.

but you are right. the best behaved dog can become aggressive for all kinds of reasons. season, mating all kinds of things can cause a dog to attack.

[cuke]

240. I'm so very glad to hear that

A loose dog is not only a danger to others; it's also a danger to itself.

[seabeyond]

261. the third and very important reason. health and safety of your very own pet

yes

[uppityperson]

273. You are jumping to conclusions and assumptions also.

Point is this is a friendly big headed dog. I don't allow my dog to wander by itself and think people who do are foolish. Not sure what your point in this is, obviously you are missing the fact that the dog and kids are on a couch, inside.

[seabeyond]

280. yes i know they are assumptions, not conclusions, hence my many ?????

you say the dog was shot because someone was afraid of it.

i cannot conclude, nor make the assumptions, i am flat out asking, .... was the dog shot confined on your property? or while on a leash? otherwise, how did someone have the opportunity to shoot the dog? not while it was sitting on your couch in the house. surely. but again, another assumption

[uppityperson]

282. Ah, they live out in desert country on acreage.

While it was chasing ground squirrels. Don't know who.

[seabeyond]

284. i am sorry to hear that. i am much more comfortable people

living out in the middle of nowhere allowing animals to run than in a neighborhood. i have lived in az desert so i know the mentality and freedom of buying that kind of environment. but then also the attitude is pull the gun and shoot if a dog (maybe missing with chickens or any other reason) ends up on anothers property. much quicker than a neighborhood.

[uppityperson]

286. I live out and don't let me dog roam freely. We had rottweilers in our woods for awhile.

That really pissed me off. Neighbors let their rotts run free. Animal control talked with them.

[seabeyond]

281. then again, i post clearly two pits. there is no question they are pit

american pit. totally bred, aggressively trained pit. i can go thru the tale of living across from these people for a decade and you would have a much clearer understanding why i am sure they are aggressive, dangerous pits. you putting a picture of a dog that may or may not be a pit sittin on your couch with your children, to contradict my claim of pits across the street? isn't accurate either.

[uppityperson]

285. "i post clearly two pits"???? Not contradicting your claim. Showing our "pitbull".

Sounds like you have assholes for neighbors, or would it be more p.c. to say people who do not take adequate care of their pets, feeding, sheltering, socializing, controlling them.

[seabeyond]

289. confederate flag in front yard, swat picked up 58 guns when they kicked down door

drug dealing. fights. and god know what else has gone on in that home. literally, god only knows.

they are THE name in town, but this is the black sheep of the famly. the others are lawyers and gets the guy off whenever he gets in trouble. AND... this is an upper income neighborhood. father died 6 motnhs ago and they are still working on getting son out. soon. soon, no pits.

we started with three rotweillers. they roamed in pack. i kept calling the pound on those. mean dogs. saw once when one got out had a weight tied around his neck. i GUESS this is to make the dog stronger in attack.

tis disgusting

i moved in here with a 3 and newborn babies. has been a lot fo years having to watch out my window

[uppityperson]

272. Wow, you sure take things and run with them.

I don't know what you mean by a GSD for starters so I can't answer any question with that in it. You sure don't understand what this picture is about.

I am saying this dog is very child friendly.

Of course any type dog can be agressive. Is this a pitbull?

[iamthebandfanman]

51. i agree they are friendly dogs BUT

i think thats only when dealing with people (unless trained otherwise).

my BEST friend had a BUNCH of pitbulls(bread them for a while) and they were the SWEETEST dogs i have ever met and were nice to EVERY person they encountered...

other animals... that was another story...
my friend DEFINITELY did not train them to be vicious either BUT

when he would take them for walks they would lunge at almost ANY animal that came near that they werent familiar with(i guess a perceived threat).....

my friend and his dad were out splitting logs for a neighbor one evening when his normally calm dog calmly approach a goat that was in the same fiend and proceeded to lunge at it mouth open. it grabbed the goat by the side and pulled it to the ground. the goat died and my friend hadta pay for it.

like i say, the dog was calm and friendly to everybody it met... it just didnt care much for other animals especially if it was unfamiliar with it.

i tend to think thats just how some of them can be. whether they are bread that way or not.
they are very protective.

[cuke]

71. Aggression is a complicated subject

As you point out, there are many forms of aggression - people-aggresive, dog-aggressive, fear-aggressive, etc and different breeds do have differing levels of aggression. PB's are definitely more aggressive than some other breeds, but these differences are marginal at most. The way the dog is raised is far more important in the development of aggression than genetics, as proven by science

Unortunately, some think the media knows more about it

[iamthebandfanman]

87. but thats what i was saying

this dog was raised VERY well and treated as lovingly and caringly as any other pet or person in their family...
its attack was totaly unforseen and pretty much shocked all of us, myself included.

needless to say the poor animal has been isolated in a large pen ever since because they dont think they can trust him anymore(it was a male dog).

he really never ever showed any signs of aggression before and they definitely didnt raise him to be that way. infact they had another VERY small dog(forget the bread) and it never so much as even barked at it.

honestly, it came outa nowhere and had nothing to do with how it was raised.

i really just think PBs are naturally more protective and territorial...
its unforunate and sick that there are people out there who exploit that

[cuke]

178. I was agreeing with you

Sorry about the confusion

"i really just think PBs are naturally more protective and territorial...
its unforunate and sick that there are people out there who exploit that"

I think that's true for all the "bully breeds" IMO, that's why they got their reputation. Their loyalty to their pack, their protectiveness, and their territoriality combined with owners who don't understand how these traits work in dogs

[pegleg]

135. Until they maul your kids.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vilis Veritas]

8. I heard they had contacted Dennis Kucinich...

to see if he would loan them his Pocket Colbert...

:hide:

[melody]

9. Life is so f'ing unfair -- I hope they find another miniature horse for the little guy

Poor little horse. :( Poor pitbulls that weren't bred the way they should have been. :(

There's nothing about that story that isn't tragic as hell.

[renie408]

11. The thing about the pitbulls...

I don't 'hate' that breed. But they are NOT like any other dog. They should not be owned by assholes who let them run around loose or who want them so that they feel tougher or whatever.

[cuke]

21. So it's OK for an asshole to own a Labrador?

No dog should allowed to "run around loose", and no dog should be use to boost someone's self-esteem.

[renie408]

48. Labradors are the number one most popular breed in this country, with a bullet.

How many dog attacks do they account for? How many animal attacks do they account for?

Are we really all going to pretend that the problem has nothing to do with selective breeding for the past hundred years or that it is ONLY because pitbulls are owned by jerks? The lady in Florida who was ripped to pieces by her two pitbulls wasn't a jerk according to her neighbors and her dogs weren't running loose. Gee, why did her two dogs eat her? Probably because she didn't maintain the right kind of discipline with the dogs and allowed them to be alpha.

I am probably more open minded about this than you might think. Find me the stats that prove that labs are equally as dangerous as pitbulls and I will believe them. So far, the stuff I have found and my own anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise.

[cuke]

179. Link

[renie408]

197. Thank you for proving that you are talking out of your ass.

You have not provided one shred of ANYTHING to back up your claims. You never identified which dog was the pitbull in the array you linked to previously.

Gee, your expert credentials are looking a little shabby, my friend.

[cuke]

291. Look again

Near the top of the thread I posted links which describe a fatal attack by a Pomeranian and a Dachshund & Golden that killed it's owner.

I also posted a link from the CDC which show the statistics on PB's are distorted because they count mixed breeds multiple times

All you've done is link to one flawed study on fatal bites, and one flawed study on non-fatal bites. You've also admitted you're afraid of PB's w/o knowing what they look like, that you let your dogs run free, and that you don't know much about the different methods of training dogs.

[renie408]

307. A) I have posted only one study. That was from the CDC, the same as yours.

B) I don't *think* I said anything about being afraid of pitbulls. C)We have a fenced in yard. The dogs are allowed to be free on our farm, which is seventy acres, if we are with them. Otherwise, they are in the yard. If you seriously think that I am going to keep my dogs on a leash when I am in the middle of my seventy acre farm in a rural area, you are about as deranged as you present yourself to be. D) I am not the one that has made claims about training scores of dogs. You are. You have also not made any effort to back that claim up with proof. You cannot identify the pitbull in the array YOU posted. You are dodging doing that.

What does ONE fatal pomeranian attack prove? That Poms are mean little shits? Ok, I'm in.

[Runcible Spoon]

202. that woman was killed by a Presa Canario

no to get into this fight, just to clarify facts :hi:

[renie408]

213. Are you talking about the woman in San Francisco?

I am talking about an article about a woman who was killed about a month ago in Florida by her two pet pitbulls. I am not talking about the woman who was killed in the hall of her apartment building by the two dogs owned by the lawyers several years ago in San Francisco.

[cuke]

313. How do you know they were pitbulls?

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/MistakenIdentity/WrongId.htm

[Kingshakabobo]

331. ....Because the dead woman's son identified them as such on the 911 call.

"Red Nosed Pit Bulls"

[Runcible Spoon]

358. ohh another big story..you're right..

I'm remembering that poor woman mauled a few years ago...but that story was so odd, IIRC the dogs were owned by some prisoners or something.

[cuke]

283. You should read the posts on the thread

we have someone who works for a Lab rescue and SURPRISE!!! labs bite also

"Are we really all going to pretend that the problem has nothing to do with selective breeding for the past hundred years or that it is ONLY because pitbulls are owned by jerks? "

I have no idea what you mean.

"The lady in Florida who was ripped to pieces by her two pitbulls wasn't a jerk according to her neighbors and her dogs weren't running loose. "

In one of my posts, I link to a story about how a Pomeranian killed a baby and another story about a Dachshund and Golden that kills it's owner in the owners house.

And it's not for me to find statistics to prove anything about labs. You said that PB's are more aggressive than other dogs. The burden of proof is on you. Also, in posts near the top of this thread, I post links that show the stats don't count breeds accurately and the media reports of dog attacks often report the breed involved inaccurately. The info comes from the CDC.

[melody]

69. I love Staffordshire terriers (real name of pit bulls) but they aren't Labs

A popgun isn't an AK47. Pits have been bred in many instances to bring out bad qualities in them. The people who want mean
dogs know how to breed/buy them. There are some dogs that can't be made mean (my rescue Shepard is a case in point ... dog-fighters
tried to abuse her into being a fighter, but she's just too big a sweetie pie) but there are dogs who are bred for the temperament
to do just that. That's not saying that you can't rehabilitate a fighting dog since I've seen it done quite successfully, but
fighting pits aren't labs or Chows or any other kind of terrier. The traits that make them wonderful pets can be used against
them in the breeding process.

[RamboLiberal]

28. Exactly - if they find the asshole owner

He/she should have to buy this kid a new minature horse and if I was the judge I'd have him shoveling the horse manure for the next year beside banning him/her from owning any more dogs.

I'm not against pit bulls per se but it does disturb me that this seems the breed to have at the moment among some in the population. We're getting some badly bred and badly socialized pit bulls out there. It will be the good owners and dogs who will and are paying for what these irresponsible jerk owners and breeders are doing.

Here's another sad story from last week that a irresponsible owner of a pit bull caused.

Born blind and afflicted with cerebral palsy, seizures and a host of other disabilities, 3 1/2-year-old Pauline Veloz had little joy in her young life.

Except for Hennessey, a little black and brown Chihuahua who became her constant companion and was specially trained to forecast her seizures.

But the faithful Hennessey - whose very presence calmed Pauline - died Friday after a brutal attack by a neighbor's pit bull, causing heartache for the girl and her entire family.

Unable to speak, walk or easily communicate with those around her, Pauline is confined to a stroller and had spent most of the time rocking and banging her head against things.

But after Hennessey came into her life, Pauline, nicknamed Peanut, stopped banging her head, and her right hand, normally clenched in a fist, began to open to pet the small dog that never left her side.

-----

On Friday, as Pauline's uncle babysat her in the front yard of his East San Jose home, a 50-pound pit bull got loose from a neighbor's house and charged the 2 1/2-pound Chihuahua, tearing it apart and leaving it near death.

BTW, Hennessey couldn't be saved.

http://www.mercurynews.com/valley/ci_7200800

[robinlynne]

34. I think they should all be spade, and not continue to breed them. at all.

[uppityperson]

41. "spayed" not spade, and yes, spay owners who treat dogs wrong

spade is a type of shovel. To neuter a female by removing uterus and/or ovaries is to spay her, hence "spayed". Think of "I jump" "I jumped". Unless you mean they should get their head chopped off with a shovel, in which case I'd say "spaded".

This is a spade:

[robinlynne]

46. You are uppity, uppity.

[uppityperson]

52. Sometimes.

1 of my pet peeves (not meant as a pun).

[Critters2]

247. I agree. nt

[semillama]

17. The Artistocrats!

I apologize for the insensitivity of my post subject, but the whole thing is so absurdly tragic it seemed like one of those jokes.


Our newest employee has a miniature horse, he claims he wish he had it when he was single because it's the "greatest chick magnet ever."

[cuke]

22. I blame Hillary

Has anyone ever heard her speak out against this scourge of pony-eating Pitbulls?

[shain from kane]

30. Did you hear about the pit bull who ate a horse?

Neigh.

[hiphopnation]

76. ok

not supposed to be funny (or is it) but this post and the two prior are probably some of the funniest things i've read in GD in a few weeks. please, all three of you stand up and take a bow. hilarious

:rofl::spray:

[uppityperson]

43. Poor horse, poor kid.

[Zookeeper]

287. Yes. I think that's the first and best response.

I feel so sorry for that child. :cry:

[MadHound]

44. Sorry, but these are the risks you take with livestock

All sorts of dogs, both wild and domestic, will hound and kill livestock, cows, horses, sheep, what have you. Coyotes, wild dogs, wolves, the various large cat breeds will hunt and kill. That's the way nature is. Is it a shame that this happened, yes indeed. But perhaps they could rig up some sort of shelter for this miniature horse, perhaps in a garage or outbuilding.

This isn't a pit bull thing, this is a nature thing. It could have been shepards, rotts, labs, heelers, any one of a long list of breeds, or even just plain mutts. It is the chance you take with livestock:shrug:

[RamboLiberal]

54. Oh bullshit

It's one thing for wild animals like cougars, coyotes, etc. to attack - yes that is nature. But even in rural areas dogs should not be allowed to run loose and harass/kill livestock or wild animals like deer.

If you have a dog you damn well better do your best to keep it from getting off your property. The owner of these pit bulls should be buying this kid another horse.

[MadHound]

78. You can want in one hand. . .

You obviously have never lived in rural area. Yes, livestock is run down and killed by dogs. Sometimes these dogs are part of wild packs, the unwanted pups that city folks drop off, or sometimes their your neighbor dogs. The usual solution is that the owner of the livestock either shelters his livestock at night, or leaves them out and takes his chances. If he does the latter, he generally has a thirty aught six handy to shoot said predators.

Most people in the country don't fence or chain up their dogs, they generally wander around and suffer the consequences. They get hit by cars, shot by irate farmers, etc. It may not be right in your eyes, but that is the way it is. Frankly, if you got up in peoples' faces about this issue, it would probably be you getting shot.

When I moved out to the country the first thing I did to the new house was build a fenced back yard so my dogs wouldn't chase my neighbor's cattle and either get shot or get run over. They go outside the fence when I'm out there with them. Most folks don't do this however, either through lack of funds, or the simple fact that out in the country people don't like to have to worry about having a lot of laws restricting them, including laws to keep your dog controlled. That has both its good points and bad points. You have tragedies like this one, but on the flip side you don't have to deal with six different kinds of permits to build what you want on your property. It is a very libertarian atmosphere in most rural areas, which is both positive and negative. Personally, I like that atmosphere, it allows me to pursue my hobby of rebuilding old cars unimpeded by meddling city governments. But for many city folks it is repugnant. That's fine, if you don't like it, don't move out here.

[RamboLiberal]

222. Still not right to let your dog run and harass livestock or wildlife

And I'm not that unfamilar with living in the country. Get on my property and harass my livestock or deer and I have every right to shoot 'em dead. In my area of the country the rural folks do not look kindly on loose dogs harassing wildlife or domestic animals and any dog doing so will not be having a long life.

[Roon]

311. I was helping my Uncle move from one cabin to another

in pike national forest. I found this large femur bone. I asked my Uncle, "Where did this come from?" he replied, "Oh, the dogs take down a deer or two every month." I got to his new cabin and found a set of antlers hanging on the wall. I asked my Uncle, "Did you bag that buck?" He replied,"No, that is another deer that the dogs took down a few months back."...the breed of the dog? Golden Labs.

[shain from kane]

61. It's a good thing that they had insurance. n/t

[midlife_mo_Jo]

68. Sorry, but it happens much more with some breeds

My neighbor's collie was killed when a pitbull tore through her fence and attacked the collie. Her collie's carcus was practically shredded in her own back yard. It was awful.

When you hear something like that, you can pretty much figure it was a pitbull.

[MadHound]

86. Biased much?

I live out in a rural area, and the main strays that I see wandering around, both wild(dropped off by city folks) and domestic are mutts, of pretty indistinct breed lines. Yes, they take down calves, cattle etc. In fact I see very few pit bulls out here, that's more of a city breed.

I have owned pits and pit mixes for a good portion of my life, and frankly, it isn't the breed, it's the owner. My current pit mix is a sweet heart who wouldn't hurt a fly, but of course I didn't raise her to be mean.

But hey, if you want to automatically assume things, go for it. Just don't be surprised when you have egg on your face.

[shain from kane]

93. The most famous pit bull ever.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pete.php

[uppityperson]

103. OMG!!!11 Those poor kids!

Arrest the parents! Taze them!

[shain from kane]

112. Yum Yum Eat 'em up! Eat 'em up! n/t

[renie408]

204. Dog attacking I don't know about...livestock chasing

I do know about. We have had to shoot at dogs to get them away from the horses twice. Once they looked like they were some kind of shepherd mixes and there were three of them. The other time, they were literally what is called in our area 'bear hunting dogs'. I am not sure of the breed, but they look like a brindle Rottie, only longer legged. My husband didn't hit the shepherds and the shooting scared them off. He had to actually shoot one of the other dogs. The gun shots didn't phase them one bit. I don't *think* he killed it. It certainly took off agilely enough.

[renie408]

201. Actually, this is true.

I won't argue with that one. Some dogs are more devoted to chasing livestock that others and some don't seem to know what to do with them when they catch them, but most dogs I have known just love to chase a horse. You have to teach them that it is undesirable.

BTW..I don't keep my horses in my garage. I think it is the responsibility of the dog owner to keep the dog up.

[MadHound]

205. Oh, I agree, it is the responsibility of the dog owner to control their dog

But so many don't take on that responsibility that many people stable their livestock at night if they can, and keep a long rifle handy if they can't.

But thanks for being one of the few who recognizes the realities of rural life.

[renie408]

211. I live in the country. Well, it used to be country...

Anyway, I know how it is. In the summertime here we turn the horses out at night because it is so hot during the day. We have to keep an ear out at that time.

[Critters2]

249. ...

[SacredCow]

50. How tragic.....

Personally, I think having a pit bull is like playing with fire. Sure, it may be that yours has never or will never turn on you or anyone else, but it DOES happen. Hell, I've seen it happen and been on the receiving end of it to boot.

But I don't think banning the breed, or even demonizing the breed is the answer. The problem begins and ends with the dog owner. Whoever owned these dogs should have to pay a steep fine (I'm thinking in the thousands range) for allowing their animals to run loose and cause injury.

[flvegan]

64. Good to see that the kiddo is getting a replacement (most likely)

3 year old with brain cancer. Tragic.

[theboss]

70. Joey Porter is out of the country, right?

He can't be blamed this time.

[YOY]

106. Amarillo...that explains it

Sorry if there are any DUers unfortunate enough to live there.

[seabeyond]

152. me .. bah hahaha. and pit is the dog of choice. makes our cowboys FEEL

like the manly men they like to pretend to be.

[CRF450]

164. No different how hip hop rapper wannabes use these dogs to make them look badass.

[YOY]

174. The only "pit" in the story as far as I am concerned is the city of Amarillo

I've passed through it twice and both times it reminds me of a wasteland in more than one ways. Amarillo is a staunch right-wing turd of a town that let someone get away with murder.

All because this was what the victim looked like:

and this was the killer: (Not pictured with Cowboy hat and Letterman's jacket.)

People training dogs to be vicious is no shock if it happens there. I know some good folks live there, but they are highly outnumbered.

[seabeyond]

183. as soon as i saw the picture, my heart went out.this was horrendous

i dont remember when it happened but i have heard about it since. just breaks my heart, and was horrible. from what i remember the "cowboy" spent next to nothing in jail. got off? a decade probation? but vaguely remembering he had since gotten in trouble. not really remembering the story. yes. this is what i am raising my sons in. the environment. and we fight it all the way, bravely. and i am a california girl, lol.

ya

that was very very sad and an indictment of this town.

[YOY]

333. Something about the Brian Deneke story stuck in my craw

I saw it on "City Confidential" which I used to watch fairly often when we had cable...I think on the A&E channel about 3 years ago and although all the other cases are long gone in my mind Brian's lives on. I don't know why, I'm not even nor ever was a huge fan of Punk music aside from NOFX and Bad Religion... Maybe because it had all the makings of a "hate crime" without the race or religion.

What made me remember it so was the way they portrayed the victim in reality and how the court portrayed him in the murder trial. He was, by all accounts of people who knew him, absolutely salt of the earth, and well warranted the nickname "Sunshine". The redneck churchgoing football loving hard drinking Texas environment he lived in (and that you live in) gave him the well warranted nickname "Fistmagnet".

Yeah, you got the case summed up there pretty good. I feel for you living there. Like I said, I know there are some good people living there. :)

[TheCentepedeShoes]

248. I live here, too

:P

[seabeyond]

321. btw, son wanted to point out, happened in pampa, not amarillo n/t

[YOY]

334. Oops. Well Amarillo is the closest city to it

Unless you want to count Shamrock (:evilgrin: don't think it's quite a city...but I've gotten gas there on the way through!)

[seabeyond]

335. i was living in reno and moved here to slow down a little. came to a stop, lol

i was on my way back out of town to move back to the west coast and met my hubby. one of the conditions on me marrying him was i got to leave texas quarterly. i head to colorado or new mexico. not too sure where shamrock is, (what direction) must not be towards either of those states, lol.

but shamrock, pampa, amarillo.... it is all the same.

[YOY]

336. It's straight east of Amarillo...you get it and Amarillo whenever you east-west the panhandle.

If memory does not serve me wrong it's really more of a truckstop and not so much a town....but maybe I'm biased growing up in Great Lakes Suburbia and living in cities of 40,000+ population all over the world my life.

Althought I don't know your financial and work situation if I were you I'd relocate to Albuquerque. That city is a warm welcome after driving through Texas. Plus the scenery along the way is wonderful. I've met some cool folks there too!

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

186. wow

Pitbulls, ponies AND cancer stricken kids. That's some fucked up shit dude. Last time I checked though, our country was on item number nine on the dictator's checklist of ten things to do to destroy a democracy.

[incapsulated]

199. rofl

Yeah, but it's been amusing in a sick way.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

206. Yes.

:evilgrin:

[renie408]

215. Yeah, but we all pretty much agree on that. n/t

[cuke]

297. Rumor has it those dogs were breast fed

[Yavin4]

264. Where's Michael Vick When You Need Him?

The man was making the world safe for miniature horses donated to cancer-stricken children, and we put him in jail. Nice going America.

[depakid]

265. Pitbulls & hand guns

Two things you'll NEVER be able to talk sense to many Americans about....

Thankfully, both have been banned in New South Wales and Queensland, where my SO and I expect we'll be spending most of the rest of our lives.

[LadyAziz]

290. Pitbulls will never clean up their image

:(

[skids]

292. Well, I guess that was worth the tombstone for someone...

...geeze, we didn't get the better of that interloper, whoever it was. Oh well, we win most, we lose a few.

(I am referring of course to the "Deleted Message/Name Removed" reply above that seems to have done precisely what it was intended to do.)

[Critters2]

296. Doesn't necessarily mean someone was TS'd.

Just sayin'.

[renie408]

326. So far, so good. n/t

[LWolf]

314. What a horrible thing to happen.

Miniature horses aren't much bigger than some large dogs themselves, and would be easy prey for any dog who had access to them. Many dogs love to chase horses, (and cars, cats, rabbits, and anything else that will "run". If it had been my horse they chased, at least one dog would have died. She doesn't like dogs or coyotes, and once killed a dog who thought it would be a fun game to chase her.

I wonder how the dogs got onto the property; can a pit-bull jump a 4.5 foot fence? Or were they let in?

I ran into a pit bull on a hike along the river last week. He was unleashed; his family was picnicking on a rock by the water. He approached my dog, who let him know that he couldn't approach me. He wagged, sat, and proceeded to reassure my dog that he was safe, at which point she graciously allowed me to greet him, while his owners waved hello. They had to call him back when we moved off down the trail, though. He wanted to tag along. He went back sadly, lay down, and sighed in disappointment.

While I would have preferred for him to have been leashed, he was soft, friendly, and a gentleman.

[Scout]

318. poor little horse, what an awful way to die!

do they have to get another pony for the child?

[krispos42]

339. The Make-A-Wish Foundation is trying to get another one

Hopefully they have the cash to do so.

I just hope the kid didn't see the aftermath, that's all :-(

[Scout]

347. DON'T get him another one! another miniature horse should not have to suffer! n/t

[krispos42]

349. Well, they're going to put in a horsey-door...

...and a LitterMaid! :-)

[renie408]

322. Ok. I am willing to give in. Cuke is right. All dogs are identical in personality.

There is no difference between a pitbull and a Golden Retriever or a Labrador or a Cocker Spaniel or a German Shepherd or a Basset Hound. All dogs are exactly the same, except for size, color and coat. You do not need to treat a pitbull any differently than a Shih Tzu. He is the expert and so I bow to his superior knowledge. If he tells me that all dogs are exactly alike, who am I to say differently? I am just a lay person. Honestly, this is a big relief. The times I have worked with rescue dogs I have always tried to be careful in their placement. Now I know that since all dogs are just alike, it doesn't make any difference. The same person who is suitable to own a Pekingese will work out just fine with a German Shepherd. Since there are no identifiable differences between breeds, people no longer have to pay attention to any pesky information about breed qualities.

[seabeyond]

325. All dogs are identical in personality..... nu uh.... n/t

[NashVegas]

327. Well ... Here You Go

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/porcupinedog.asp





The Porcupine was killed, in spite of all the damage it inflicted.

We had a dog that got into one or two bouts with those critters. All he got was a little bit of a beard, but then he wasn't a pit bull: he let it go.

Isn't that what makes pitbulls dangerous? Their refusal to let go?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

337. That's a bull terrier, not a pitbull.

Nice try though.

[NashVegas]

342. WTF Do You Think a Pit Bull IS If Not a BULL TERRIER?

Disingenuous bullshit.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

344. ..

Here's a pit bull:



Here's a bull terrier:

[NashVegas]

346. Wow. Thank You For Posting a Photo of an American PIT BULL TERRIER

As well as a Bull Terrier, commonly called a Pitbull .. both breeds of which have a tendency to not let go, as was the point in my post about the porcupine in the first place.

Don't you get tired of arguing like a Freeper, using totally disingenuous bullshit? You know, like saying that horses kill more than Pitbulls?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

348. Commonly called a pit bull?

Only by people who don't know what a pit bull looks like.

"both breeds of which have a tendency to not let go, as was the point in my post about the porcupine in the first place."

That's common among lots of dogs or any kind of mutt.



"Don't you get tired of arguing like a Freeper, using totally disingenuous bullshit? You know, like saying that horses kill more than Pitbulls?"

Freepers, when their argument is completely and utterly destroyed and debunked, tend to resort to ad hominem arguments. Maybe they shouldn't have stuck their foot in their mouth in the first place. Is arguing that horses are dangerous because they kill ~90 people over a ten year period disingenous? Yes, that's my whole point, Einstein.

[renie408]

351. About that horse thing...

That is a bullshit stat and you know it. The main way somebody gets killed by a horse is falling off of it. The other way is accidentally getting in their way while they try to go somewhere else really quickly. Horses are never going to mistake you for prey. What they eat pretty much just sits and waits to get pulled out of the ground. While I am sure if you spend some time on Google you will find the odd instance of a horse jumping somebody, horses just don't normally attack people. Ever. At all. They are eatees, not eaters.

[NashVegas]

352. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah

Freepers, when their argument is completely and utterly destroyed and debunked

That's the second (at least) time in this thread you've said someone's argument was destroyed - which is out-and-out bullshit.

There are several breeds of Terriers that are commonly called Pit bulls by everyone in the world except those who are treading water to fight the negative image. Of which you seem to be one. That's not an ad hominem attack, that's just what it is.

Is arguing that horses are dangerous because they kill ~90 people over a ten year period disingenous? Yes, that's my whole point, Einstein.

If you don't watch it, your head will spin so much it finally flies off.

[cuke]

353. About Freepers

I totally destroyed renie so now she attacks me with an ad hominem that isn't even true

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2135103#2138467

I have multiple posts on this thread describing the various personality traits of various breeds. I just dont think that PB's are more human-aggresive than other breeds

[renie408]

355. You did it again. You linked right back to this thread.

You know, you really piss me off. But that is MY fault, not yours. I can either let you drive me nuts or I can let you go. I choose to let you go. If that makes you feel like you won...whatever. I have no control over it. I can't argue with someone who is not bound by logic and who lies. So, go forth and prosper.

Get on with training those scores of Pomeranian attack dogs.

[cuke]

362. You obviously are unable to let me go

You even had to post about me and how you "give up". Now, you're responding to me AGAIN while telling me how you're going "let me go", and finishing up with more snark.

[uppityperson]

345. Delete, am tired. Look at hooligan's post for same info.

[renie408]

350. I think he means its like a Spuds Mackenzie dog, not a Little Rascals Petey dog.

Though how you can tell what the hell it is is beyond me.

[cuke]

354. They are different breeds

and look very different. Look at the pictures BAH posted. DO you really have trouble telling the difference?

[renie408]

356. Oh, now I get it. You cannot read. Poor guy. It must be hard to navigate

through a place like this with the reading comprehension skills of a first grader, huh??

See, I was the one who said they were two different kinds of dogs using popularly well known representatives of the different breeds. Then I said that it was hard to tell what kind of dog was under the porcupine quills in the picture. See? Do. You. Understand. Now?

I get that you hate me now and want to jump on every word I write. I get that part. But honestly, when it makes you say things that are just idiotic, you should resist that urge.

[cuke]

363. It is easy to tell, even under the porcupines quills

BAH could tell. So could I. Look at the ears, eyes, the nose and the shape of the head (which you can tell even with the quills) Bull Terriers have a very distinctive look

[NashVegas]

357. Nah

Most unbiased sources will tell you there are a several breeds commonly referred to as pit bulls. Most Pit Bull defender sources will say that if it's not an American Pit Bull Terrier, then it's not really a pit bull.

Anyway, it's not really the point, it's a diversion from my post stating that what makes Pit Bulls so dangerous compared to other dogs is Pit Bulls don't let go. And that still is accurate for breeds commonly called Pit Bulls, even if they aren't APBTs or Staffordshires.

[renie408]

359. I am no expert, but it is my experience that terriers are

tough little shits in general. They are bred to do things like go down holes after foxes the same size they are, bait bulls, etc. Breed one to be fifty pounds of solid muscle, and that is a formidable animal. I understand your point and agree. Not that it is going to do either one of us a bit of good.

[uppityperson]

361. "pitbull" is often a misnomer, and "they don't let go" is also inaccurate, depending upon factors

training, handling, that sorts of thing. And what "type" pit bull do you mean, since it's been established through this long drawn out thread that there are many types of dogs called "pit bull". Every dog commonly called a "pit bull" intrinsically won't let go? Is this what you are saying?

Common definition vs accurate definition and all. Like you said.

[AngryAmish]

343. Pit Bull terriers are exactly that

Tey are terriers, and terriers, for hundreds if not thousands of years, have been bred to be "game". They don't give up. They stick to a task no matter what.

[Critters2]

330. Yep, a beagle is a shepherd is a chihuahua is a pit bull.

Just memorize that mantra.

[earth mom]

360. And yet people defend those monstrous dogs.

It's always "MY dog wouldn't hurt a flea". :eyes: