Remember cutting gas demand by raising prices provides little supply to the poor/working poor...

[Blackhatjack]

With gasoline heading for $4/gal, keep in mind that raising the price to cut demand simply rations more gasoline supply to those rich enough to pay for it, and it effectively cuts off supply to those who cannot afford it.

The only fair way to allocate limited supply of gasoline is rationing, which would affect the poor/middle class/rich alike in sharing the burden.

And if gas hits $4/gal or higher you will still see large SUVs on the road getting 10 mpg because the rich can afford to pay the price.

[taterguy]

1. Rationing is only fair if you're able-bodied and have options like walking or biking places

It absolutely screws people with health problems.

[kestrel91316]

2. So why couldn't people with BONA FIDE health problems get

an extra ration? There's nothing to stop that. Just go by who has handicapped license plates (permanent AND temporary).

[taterguy]

3. So are you saying only folks with handicapped plates should drive now?

That would lessen congestion considerably.

[kestrel91316]

4. No, YOU are saying that. I am saying that those with physical

limitations, for whom walking and biking and perhaps even mass transit are impossible - THOSE folks perhaps would need a bigger ration.

But you go right on putting words in people's mouths. It'll make you LOTS of friends.

[taterguy]

5. I wasn't putting words in your mouth, I was asking for CLARIFICATIOn

I'm just confused by the notion of gas rationing. It implies that there's a lot of voluntary / discretionary driving going on.

My experience is that that most folks feel they drive only when it's absolutely positively necessary. (Or at least that's that they say on this site)

So what will happen in practical terms if there's a limit to how much gasoline people can buy and what should the limits be?

How much gas should people be able to buy?

These are questions that I'm genuinely curious about.

[kestrel91316]

6. I'm not the one to hash out the details of gas rationing. I'm a VETERINARIAN, lol.

I just know it worked fine in WW II and if we REALLY want to get a handle on Peak Oil/Global Warming, we had better get off our lazy butts and do it.

I live 2.3 miles from work. No, it's NOT my first choice of where I would WANT to live, but there are greater considerations for me than my personal pleasure. Once I get completely moved into the new apartment (1-BR rather than the 2-BR plus office house I was in) then I will see about biking or walking to work. Biking is tough on Ventura Blvd, and getting to alternate routes is just as dangerous.

I would like everybody else to make an effort, too. And don't stop at replacing your light bulbs with CFLs, folks. You have got to walk the walk in addition to talking the talk.

[taterguy]

29. In WW II production of personal cars virtually ceased and there were no Interstates

Is that what you're advocating?
Oh wait, that would be putting words in your mouth.
Sorry. :)

[Blackhatjack]

7. There already is "...a limit to how much gasoline people can buy." How much $ You Got???

One of the points of the OP is that there are critical needs for gasoline by people who do not have the $ to pay $4/gallon.

If the scarcity of gasoline supply is driving the price per gallon up, why not choose a different way to allocate the supply among the people rather than just by price?

I know people in low wage jobs who cannot keep those jobs if the price of gasoline goes up to $4/gal.

Once you allocate the available supply in relation to the total demand, there should be no need for the price of gasoline to go up because of scarcity.

A system for rationing of gasoline has always had exceptions for certain people(ie. doctors, govt officials, anyone serving a vital government interest, etc). It would do one thing. It would demonstrate to Americans just how much gasoline we are using, and how they can find alternatives to using as much gasoline once the scarcity has disappeared.

[taterguy]

8. The philosophical question is what constitutes a critical need?

Right now I usually drive to the grocery store. I could ride a bicycle but I choose not to. If I rode a bike I'd have to make about 3 or 4 trips. What takes half an hour in a car would take half a day on a bicycle and quite frankly I've got better things to do with my time.

Is it critical that I occasionally drive 150 miles to soak in some natural beauty and get exercise? Well no, but doing that helps me do my job much better. It also makes me healthier and we all know how important that is.

So what demands are legitimate? I'd really like to have a civilized discussion about it.

Take your time with any responses. I'm in no hurry.

[Blackhatjack]

10. As the OP points out, if you have plenty of $ you can continue to do all these things unaffected...

... your comments are willfully obtuse.

You would proffer that allowing those with plenty of money to have access to all the gasoline they want from a scarce supply to burn in low efficiency SUVs is fine with you, even if it means a low wage earner will lose their job because they can no longer afford to buy gasoline at the inflated price to keep their job.

WHich is more important? The rich be insulated from any and all inconveniences of a scarce gasoline supply, or a working poor family being able to hold onto to their job and put food on the table? I guess you could ponder that while you 'drive 150 miles to soak in some natural beauty and get exercise."

IF you are serious about having a 'civil discussion' and this is your position, you really don't have to say anything else. We can discern exactly what you think of shared sacrifice in a democracy. Those with the money should get what they want, when they want it, and forget those less well off who do not have the same options.

[taterguy]

12. I just don't understand how a rationing plan could be currently implemented

Let's start simple: how much gasoline should each individual be entitled to every month?

[Blackhatjack]

16. You could start in a very simple manner like we did in 1973...

... people could fill their tanks every other day depending whether their license tag ends in an odd or even number.

The rationing program in 1973 did reduce total demand and also addressed the problem of people waiting in lines to buy gas.

[wuushew]

18. Such a system promotes a black market for gasoline

Whats to stop people from swapping plates?

People who break the rules will just externalize the cost onto others.

[Blackhatjack]

19. What is to stop people from switching license plates today? It's against the law...

Do you believe a majority of people go around violating the law?

It would be the same with violating the law on rationing.

There are other methods like odd/even residential addresses. Or days linked to the first letter of one's last name.

We use odd/even numbering for outside water rationing in Raleigh, NC during the drought, and penalties of a few hundred dollars to thousands of dollars for repeat violations. Guess where the most violations and repeat violations occurred? In our richest neighborhoods. Some residents cited there simply shrugged off the citation for watering their lush green lawn by saying 'it was like a price increase, and not a problem.'

Even if the system does not work perfectly, it does for the great majority --and that would lead to greated equality in access to gasoline rather than allowing the rich to gas up their huge SUVs and their boats when others cannot keep their jobs because they cannot afford to pay the higher prices for gasoline to get there and work.

[Horse with no Name]

48. They could do like they do in Texas

Your vehicle registration sticker on your windshield has your license plate number on it.
They could go by that. Those are impossible to swap.

[taterguy]

23. I took your advice and pondered things while soaking up natural beauty

Here's what I came up with:

I just don't see any feasible way to enact a rationing program. The rich will find loopholes to prevent any changes from affecting them. It's not a question of whether or not I think that's right, that's just the way things are. If anyone knows how to change that I'd love to hear about it.

Earlier I asked a simple question: How much gas should people be able to buy every month? Your answer was to say people could buy as much as they want, just every other day.

I still want to know: how much gas is it reasonable for a person to consume? Just pick a number.

Should some folks get higher rations? Who and why?

Obviously I think we all should make sacrifices. We just disagree on methods.

Here's what I think we should do:

Set examples by using automobiles as rarely as possible. People in my area have all sorts of excuses about why they need their cars. The fact that mine stays parked the overwhelming majority of the time refutes most of them. I do talk about my lifestyle way too often for my friends' taste.

Point out to our employers that it makes good business sense to promote alternatives to driving for employees to get to work. The EPA even provides technical assistance and financial incentives for employers to go this route.

http://www.bestworkplaces.org/index.htm

Lobby local governments. People that you have access to that can actually implement change. A national program to conserve oil would be great but I don't personally know anyone that makes national decisions.

That's it for now.

Have a great evening and rest of the weekend.

PS: Here's the beauty I soaked up. I think I consumed about three gallons of gas doing it. Sorry.

[flashl]

9. During a pike in gasoline prices last year ...

there were several local reports of low income workers pawning their personal effects to pay for gasoline.

[Blackhatjack]

11. So true... and we had a city council raise the price of bus transit fare rather than raise taxes ...

.... the 'fee for service model' has infiltrated every aspect of essential services so that those well-off financially can pay the 'same price as the poor' for water, sewer, gas, etc. and their property taxes will not be increased.

When you consider the percentage of total income the working poor spend on housing, food, transportation, and utilities, there is nothing left over --and any increase in any of these creates a 'hole' that cannot be filled.

[Strelnikov_]

13. Robert Hirsch agrees

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x117589

I agree.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=60641#60763

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1725012#1726171

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1036763#1037413


Rationing by price will perpetuate mis-allocation of a dwindling resource, leading to suffering for all. For example, what happens when farmers leave their crops in the fields because they are outbid by Wal-Marts warehouse on wheels and suburbia hocking everything to keep the easy motoring life going for a few more months (because the media will blowing smoke up all our collective asses on how the high prices will pass). Things will putter along, for a few more months, until the granaries start to empty.

[Blackhatjack]

15. This scenario will play out if 'price' is allow to be the only filter on allocation...

With 1% of the population owning over 21% of the nation's wealth you have to ask if it is important to allow that 1% to determine how a scarce resource will be allocated?

Will they opt for the 'greater good' of all Americans, or will they continue using gasoline in ways that do not preserve essential services for government, and allow the less well off to financially survive?

I don't have that much confidence in them making the 'right' decision when it comes to the 'public welfare.'

[wuushew]

14. Wasn't rationing in 1973 considered a failure?

n/t

[Blackhatjack]

17. I remember 1973, and it was not a failure.

Before rationing people with money were trying to hoard gasoline, and there were long lines waiting to get gas(which increased consumption as those vehicles were running while waiting).

IT did reduce demand, made people think before they made unnecessary trips, encouraged carpooling, etc. All positive things.

[RB TexLa]

20. There is no reason to ration a product that has ample supply

[wuushew]

21. kick

:kick:

[TimBean]

22. cheap gas creates bad behaviour

Like living too far away from where you work, like building exurban communities that are nothing but houses because everyone drives the four miles to the local wal mart, that trucks in plastic crap from China.

Rationed gas will create MORE of this behaviour (or worse)
Expensive (true cost) gas will give people the incentive to live their lives in a more efficient manner.

[bobbolink]

25. You haven't been reading actual reports, have you?

What would you have poor people do?

Throw themselves off a cliff, so you won't have to think about them?

[TimBean]

28. you haven't learned from history

No.

People have been building suburban sprawl communities for the last few decades. These communities are sadly inefficient, but have been fueled by cheap gasoline. This method of living is unsustainable and the sooner we realize it, the better.

Higher fuel costs are a good way of letting people know "You live too far from the places you work and shop" These changes don't happen over night or even in a year, but take years to manifest in society. After the high gas prices of the 70's, the Japanese took over the car market by making fuel efficient cars that everybody loved.

In the short term, high gas prices are painful, as habits are hard to break. Gasoline has a very inelastic demand.

In the long run, people can change, and communities can become more efficient (meaning less traffic, less exhaust in our air, places of work and places to shop closer to places to live.)

In the long run, high gas prices are a good thing.

[bobbolink]

30. I suppose you will be laughing with glee at poor people dying in order to satisfy you.

[TimBean]

45. One day oil production will peak

I don't know when oil production will peak. It could be a hundred years for now, it could have been yesterday. I don't know. Please don't pretend you know either.

When it does peak, are we going to live in communities that only work because gas is a 2 bucks a gallon. Or will have become less wasteful. All your sympathy for the poor does wonders for them now, but can they run their cars on it when there simply is no oil left?

A new reality will have to set in one day, and the sooner we accept that the better.

[Marrah_G]

50. Wrong

Expensive gas hurts only the working poor.

Gas, Food, Heat, household goods- All these things go up when gas goes up. Our wages don't improve but our cost of living keeps getting higher.

I cannot walk to work, it is to far. There isn't alot within walking distance.

For those of us just getting by, the rising prices are likely to put us over the edge.

Gas for the car comes first: no work, no money.
Electricity bill comes next: I can fall back on space heaters in a bind
Oil comes next: I live in New England
Then comes food: Sometimes it is very bleak.

Unless you know what it is like to choose gas over food then you really don't understand the life of the working poor in this country.

[TimBean]

63. Exactly

Don't you find it strange that you MUST drive to get to work. That you are unable to serve the community you live in. It wasn't always like that. But cheap gas made that possible, and is in the process of making that necessary. This is not good. Artificially lowering the cost of gasoline will only enforce this behaviour and make it that much harder a transition when we have no choice.

[bobbolink]

24. FINALLY! A "rational" approach! Higher prices do NOTHING to limit useage.

Poor people often lose jobs because they can no longer get to work when gas prices rise.

Yet, so many liberals continue to advocate gas taxes!

It doesn't seem to bother them that poor people then have to choose between getting to work, and eating.

"And if gas hits $4/gal or higher you will still see large SUVs on the road getting 10 mpg because the rich can afford to pay the price."

Absolutely! It simply doesn't faze them.

Nor do they care what it's doing to people with no "slush fund".

[wuushew]

26. Why not match a federal gas tax with a tax credit for income tax?

That way you eliminate the regressivity and massively multiply the existing economic incentive for improved fuel efficiency.

[bobbolink]

31. Has it occured to you that the poorest of the poor don't even PAY income tax?

Is there anyone here who actually knows anything about poverty?

The only way ANY of you are going to GET THIS is to be poor yourself.

The muddleclass can't implode fast enough.

[wuushew]

42. Um, what about the word CREDIT don't you understand?

Most people, poor or otherwise DO pay taxes on earned income. My proposal realizes this and sets the tax credit equal to the average tax at the lowest bracket.

Here is the 2006 Federal Tax schedule rates

http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=150856,00.html


The only legitimate criticisms would fall into three categories:


(A) Cash flow issues which can be addressed by the changing the start or frequency of the federal gas credit.

(B) The impact on on impoverished disabled or elderly tax payers; In non-urban areas where public transit is not prevalent, subsides for taxi services should be increased to offset those priced out of car ownership.

(C) Illegal workers would be hit by the increased regressivness, but this could be addressed with other issues in the guest worker/amensty debate.


What methods to you propose other than increased CAFE standards to improve fuel efficiency?

[bobbolink]

49. People on disability and elderly poor DO NOT PAY INCOME TAXES

To quote you, "What is it about poverty that you don't understand?"

If you're talking about tax rebates once a year, those don't work, especially for homeless people.

[wuushew]

53. Yes but they could still apply for a credit

My most recent job was in state tax collection.

Let me give you an example. Lots and lots of people in Wisconsin qualify for something called the homestead credit. For the poorest people the value of the credit covers completely their rent or property tax bill for the previous year.

Many people who were on SS did not need to file income tax paperwork at all, but they sure were beating down my door to fill out a tax form to get a refund.

I propose the same thing for a gas tax reimbursement. Democrats are smart people and we certainly can make a fair tax structure that also encourages conservation.

We could gradually ramp up the tax over a series of years. If we start out low like 10 cents a gallon that would only be $78 a year assuming 15 gallons of gas a week. We know the average fuel economies of the existing car fleet. We know the average distances people commute along with a lot other useful information so there is really no obstacle to implement such a plan forthrightly.

[bobbolink]

54. I guess you didn't read the rest of what I wrote.

HOmeless people pay that tax, but don't have AN ADDRESS WITH WHICH TO FILL OUT YOUR FORMS!!

GOT IT?

And, back when I had an address, I went through some of that... usually it didnd't come through, and it is also a whole year of living on much less, before you even get it back.

You can't imagine what it's like, because you haven't been there.

Try.

[wuushew]

57. How can the homeless legally operate automobiles without a valid address?

Where is car insurance and motor vehicle registration sent?

Housing and cars are both money pits, but you are telling me that choosing to live in a car is the best course of action over a given time period?



Gas is going to go up quicker than housing in any event, so it is a losing proposition.

[bobbolink]

60. Riiiight... take homeless peoples' cars away from them, arrest them for being on the street.

Just shoot 'em and get it over with, eh?

Man, the compassion here is amazing.

[wuushew]

61. You have offered zero solutions

If hypothetical future taxes are a non-starter why not the same outrage over current schemes that presumably hurt the poor now?

Why is ethanol being used as oxygenate instead of cheaper MBTE? Why is permissible to have low sulfur requirements that drive up the cost of gas? Why is acceptable to have any state or federal gas tax at all?

The government should not interfere with the free market cost of gasoline in any way?


Will it be acceptable to meddle in such things when universal health care is implemented and the minimum wage is $15.80?

[bobbolink]

62. Oh, for gawd's sake!

Because your compassion level is zilch, you're going to attack me?

Look, it was said much earlier in this thread that the real SOLUTION is to do what this country so successfully did during WWII--RATION.

But, you're rather make life impossible for poor folk.

That's your choice, but how that makes it any different from the RW "solutions" is ... well, silly.

When you can get some compassion, and really hear what this all does to poor folk, then get back to it. Until then, there's no use.

bye-bye

[SoCalDem]

34. yep. if it suddenly costs $200 a month to commute, and it used to cost

$100, that's just another $100 a month in debt that working class people have to swallow. They cannot quit working or they have NO money, so they cut corners elsewhere..

and for people who love to say.. "car pool" or "public transportation".. I say.. We are no longer living in "Leave It to Beaver-land", where people worked M-F..9-5 and everyone "at the plant" worked the same schedule..and they all lived "down the street from each other"..

When gas prices go up, people cut back on food and may drop things like self-paid insurance, they may lower their auto coverage, they forego health checkups (even a co-pay visit costs money they no longer have).. they may put off maintenance on furnaces, cars, applances.. they may not let their kids go with the class on field trips...they start paying "part" of bills instead of the whole amount..

[Marrah_G]

51. We don't lose our jobs as much as we just cut out other things

Like food, clothing, things the kids need for school, Christmas presents, Birthday presents.

My kids could tell you what it is like to have nothing under the tree or to have a birthday pass by with an IOU.

These threads tear me up inside. DU is one of the few places I would never expect to hear "Fuck the poor-they are on their own."

[seasat]

27. I'd prefer an initial cap and trade system followed later by a carbon tax.

I agree with your statement about a gas tax being very regressive. The only way to make it work is to first get alternatives in place by a cap and trade style system. If done correctly, it would promote alternatives to fossil fuels. Once the infrastructure is in place, years down the road, you could institute a carbon tax to wean people off fossil fuels. If a carbon tax was implemented right now with the poor public transportation system and no alternatives, it would really hammer the poor.

[SoCalDem]

32. I still say they should modify the pumps

Insert a card that identifies what you are driving, and that decides the price you pay..

Drive a Hummer, pay $5...drive a Honda, pay $1.50 :)

[Fading Captain]

33. Drive a Honda ... Pay $7.50

To help offset the costs of unemployment checks for all our American autoworkers and those who've lost the spinoff jobs.

[SoCalDem]

35. OUR Honda was built in the US.. are they bringing Japanese people here

to build them.. I thought Americans worked for Honda too..

The American auto makers sealed their own fate when they did not read the handwriting on the wall..Hondas last longer, and are cheaper to operate and they ARE providing jobs here

[bobbolink]

37. You're waaaay behind the times.

Ford and Chevy parts made in Mexico, etc., and assembled same.

Toyota parts made in US and assembled in US.

Time to update your data banks.

[bobbolink]

36. And, be poor and drive an old beater because it's all you can get,

and pay the highest price......?

[SoCalDem]

38. At least the poor old beater does not come with a car payment

and surprisingly, some older cars don't get all that bad of mileage :)

[bobbolink]

39. No, but all poor people can afford now is often an old BIG car.

There aren't that many getting good gas mileage that are for sale. It's the land yachts that are being sold used now.

I was pointing out yet another way that poor folk take a hit.

[FredMertz]

55. Let's base it on what you make, not on what you drive...

Make alot of money, pay alot for gas.....make minimum wage, pay just a little. And while we're at it, let's base other taxes and fines on income. A one hundred dollar speeding ticket hurts a poor person way more than it would a rich person. The same is true for drivers license fees, car registration, hunting license,etc. A truly just system would have a sliding scale for these things based on income. Of course since the rich are the ones in control, the poor will just continue to get screwed.

[taterguy]

40. Kick because I think this is an interesting thread

[guitar man]

41. well

Living out here in a red flyover state without adequeate public transportation presents a real challenge as prices rise. At some point, it simply puts average working men/women out of business. When it is no longer profitable to go to work, I guess we simply won't. I know I won't. Hell, I can sit at home and do nothing and be flat broke, why the hell would I want to go to work all day for someone for the same result :shrug:

[Blackhatjack]

43. Why don't posters understand that transportation is required for most jobs ....

... and the lower the wage paid, the bigger the slice of income that is taken from the net salary. In many cases, it is not just the price of gas that kills lower income people. Often they are charged more for auto insurance because of where they live rather than based on their driving record. They often cannot afford to purchase anything close to a late model car, and repair bills become a way of life. Even so, as the price of gas goes up it takes the larger percentage of their remaining income to cover that --whereas upper income people may complain, but it might be just a fraction of 1% of their net income.

Without a job, lower income families have few options.

And this thread does not even address the twin problems of increased food prices because of more expensive transportation, and increased utility bills.

[FredMertz]

56. Amen, brother!

[moondust]

44. delete

[Horse with no Name]

46. You are correct.

Jimmy Carter knew that.

[tritsofme]

47. And watch the lines grow and black market flourish.

My father owned a few gas stations in the 70s, and he made some serious money through black market gasoline transactions during the era of price controls/shortages.

People who are willing to pay will get what they want.

And right now there is no shortage of gasoline, external factors are making it more expensive. If you tell Ma and Pa that own their own Mobil station that they can only charge $2.50 a gallon for gasoline, it might make more sense to close the doors on the whole operation.

[opihimoimoi]

52. Cut the WASTE and we got pleny gas for the farmers, the FFighters/cops/ EMTs, etc

We Americans WASTE the precious stuff.....

Until we get a substitute....conservation should be in order....

[taterguy]

58. What's your definition of waste?

I'm not being snarky. I'd like to know and I think it would be helpful. More importantly, how do we convince others to stop being wasteful.

[wuushew]

59. well for a start....

[opihimoimoi]

64. Thats a start...when the hard times come...all nonessential crap will be minimized

or cut off.

Sky diving, driving 200 miles for a football game/etc will be out of the question, etc

and what of efficient housing/buildings/complexes? We need to engineer far into the future.

and those vacations to no where?? Them too.

We Humans had better get a grip soon or its curtains....

[taterguy]

65. Personally I'm more concerned about work-related waste

Let's face it. Most folks have a limited amount of time and money they can devote to their Earth destroying leisure activities.

However, every day people make choices about how to get to work and it's my belief that a lot of people make the wrong choices.

Everyone is different but I know tons of people that live within a couple miles of their job but drive every day.

What I'd like to know is what are the viable methods of convincing people to change their ways.