The 30-year-old virgins

[Herman Munster]

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/09/06/virgins/index_np.html

When Amanda was 26 years old she found herself in a familiar but awkward situation: She was still a virgin and the guy she had been dating for three months didn't know it. She wasn't ready to sleep with him yet, but she was close, real close. One night they were at his house, making out on the couch, when he asked her, "When's the last time you had sex?" The question was blunt and unexpected. She didn't know how to answer, and she didn't really want to. "One year? Two years?" She didn't respond. "Don't tell me you're a virgin?" he blurted as he abruptly pulled away. "No offense, but most people do that in high school," he told her. He acted like a victim, she says four years later, telling her that none of his friends would ever sleep with a virgin, that he'd already slept with two and would never do it again. About a week later they went to the movies together, and afterward, he walked her to the car. She leaned in to kiss him and he backed away, "like I was some disgusting object."

"It made me scared to date, scared to talk to guys. It was like, 'Oh my God, they're all going to do this,'" she says. She still tried, occasionally, and after about a year she met another guy, someone else from work. But then he also didn't know she was a virgin, and one night when they were practically naked together in bed it happened again, almost in the exact same way. He asked her about former lovers, and while she laughs nervously now as she retells the story, it wasn't funny then. It reminded her of the last time and she started to cry. But this guy was actually nice about it, telling her things like "That guy was such an asshole" and "You should say you just haven't found the right guy; be more self-confident." It made her feel better, and when he left he said he'd call her the next day. But he didn't call until the following week and things went downhill from there. "He never really said it was because I was a virgin," Amanda says. "But that was the point when everything shifted."

[Lisa]

1. "surprising number of women"?

Well, not to some of us.


Thanks for posting!

[NC_Nurse]

2. You know, I don't remember anyone asking that.....

I wonder if it has more to do with her lack of "skills" or the way she acts.
Maybe if she seems really uncomfortable or clumsy, they wonder why?

Just a thought....

[Warpy]

5. Probably. There's no anticipation of what's coming next (NO PUN)

when you've never experienced what's coming next. The guy's going to pick up on that.

The guys who are actively looking for virgins are even worse, most of the time.

The only thing to do about it is find that great guy and try to build a friendship before you land in bed together. Either that or find a not so great guy and hope he doesn't care, a far less optimum solution.

[Lisa]

10. That's why I'm going with Plan A!

Thanks for confirming my hunch (that landing in bed with someone who is drunk, desperate, or doesn't care would be "far less optimum")



p.s. there was a rather good documentary about just this thing on Canadian TV a while back.

http://www.cbc.ca/thelens/program_250406.html
http://www.artizanproductions.com/whatwedo.php

[slutticus]

3. Wasn't this a show on Lifetime?

[Deja Q]

4. I'm 35, still a virgin, and scared to date too. So what?

I'm sorry the guy was such a jackass. Not everybody does it during high school.

[Herman Munster]

7. how exactly do you define virgin?

You've never had any sexual activity of any kind? Some people think they are virgins if they've had oral and anal sex but haven't with vaginal sex before and I always thought that was a silly distinction.

[Deja Q]

22. And would your definition include molestation, or possibly worse?

[The Straight Story]

39. good question my friend

If I were to guess - it would mean voluntary sex. But on the molestation thing, been there myself - outside of that I did not have sex until I was 19.

[whistle]

6. It was Oscar Levant who said, "I knew Doris Day before she was a virgin."

...Levant was in the cast of Doris Day's first film, Romance on the High Seas, in which Day played a brassy showgirl very different from the virginal ingenue character that later brought her stardom.

[Warren DeMontague]

8. Oh, bull. We're spending A Billion Dollars a year in taxpayer $$$$ telling kids they ALL should

stay virgins until marriage, if not forever.

I have a hard time believing that there's some kind of widespread discrimination, particularly with guys who are about to sleep with a girl and then she says she's never done it before: "Oh, ewwww!".

Methinks there's something else going on in this story.

[Lisa]

12. I just laugh at the right-wingers who are pushing abstinence

Knowing that I've had so much less out-of-wedlock action than most of the GOP top brass is a big source of amusement to me (as is the assumption that leftist women are either lesbians or libertines).


p.s. for the other v's reading this thread ... you've probably discovered this already ... the people who truly love you and mean the most to you, will not see it as a big deal.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. I lost my virginity at age 16. I was pretty active, sexually, in my youth and young adulthood.

Now I'm married.

(And yes, I'm still active sexually despite that, ha ha)

It would have been totally absurd for me to marry the first woman I slept with, or the second, or the third. It also would have been ludicrous to suggest that I "wait" until marriage. Same thing applies to my wife. We got married in our 30s.

To each his own, but I think it's ridiculous to suggest that it's "better" to abstain from sex because you don't want to get married or meet the right person until you're out of young adulthood. For some people, for sure, maybe it is, but that's a personal call. I don't regret the fact that I had an enthusiastically sexual young adulthood, with a few long-term relationships, a bunch of relatively short term ones, and a good amount of what the kids today would call "hooking up" as well. When I was finally ready to settle down and get married, I had no second thoughts about leaving that part of my life behind.

Judging from myself and my peer group, I would say certainly that anyone who didn't have sex before 25 would have been out of the norm, but I wouldn't judge that person. Again, to each his or her own. I object when people try to push these judgments on others.

[Lisa]

21. my thoughts exactly, impeachdubya

My presuming to pass moral judgements on people over something like this -- would be just as out of line as them jumping to conclusions about my upbringing or ethics. I found it rather funny (in every sense of the word) that some of the "experts" quoted in the article were making snap calls about over-30 virgins being "obese" or psychotic (according to my physician I am neither of the above!).

I know that there are people out there -- and I've encountered some of them -- who will nitpick a person's character based on anything. (They used to try to claim that there was something "wrong" with me because my parents hadn't had any more children.) Looking at my life right now, it would be kind of difficult to say that I am antisocial -- have a wide circle of friends around the world, plus penpals and Internet contacts. Plus I'm active in local political and cultural groups and charities, and I have no shortage of people, male or female, to go out to movies or dinners with! Ages ranging from teens to over 90, too! (For some reason I'm a big hit with guys over age 70 .... I've certainly made some very interesting friends over the past few years.)

[Withywindle]

56. You sound a lot like me here, though I think you're from an older generation?

Dunno. I never believed in "waiting"--and a good thing too, I'm 38 and never married. If I'd ever thought "waiting" was a good idea, I'm sure I'd have shot up a couple workplaces in frustration by now. (And I'm a woman. I can't imagine how men must feel, if it really is more intense for them.)

Personally, I've had a lot of experience, I don't regret a bit of it, and I prefer a partner who's a peer and equal in that regard. (Even better, someone who can teach ME a few things. Not easy to find, but worth looking. :evilgrin:) Virginity...well, I have to be honest. It likely would be a dealbreaker at my age unless the person was the specialest special that ever specialed. I find the idea of "initiating" someone...unappealing. I just can't help but think someone whose libido was low enough to allow that, or who had such attitudes about sex, or such strong social anxieties or whatever the reason, just wouldn't be sexually compatible with me. And that IS very important in a relationship, like it or not.

I would never treat the person like the woman in the OP was treated, though. I would try to find a tactful way to be honest and straightforward about why.

[nonconformist]

58. I feel the same

I'm a 34 yr old woman, and I've had plenty of experience and I'm happy about that. I also think that virginity would be a turn-off for me at this point, to be completely honest.

[Xenotime]

138. That is some of the biggest crap to come along in years...

I still laugh when the topic comes up.

[Bigmack]

9. These guys must ...

... really be shitty lovers.

I have to think back a looooong time to remember what all that shit was about, but I seem to remember just being terribly, terribly, grateful, and never, NEVER passing up an opportunity to get lucky because of the experience or lack thereof of the wonderful woman involved.

I don't see a virgin as a challenge... a mountain to be climbed. I also don't see a virgin as somehow less desirable.

[NashVegas]

11. Sounds Like She Got Lucky

And got a couple of losers out of her life without even intending to.

[knitter4democracy]

14. That's what I was thinking.

Hubby and I were both virgins when we got together (closeted Christian upbringing), so there wasn't the pressure that the woman in the article faced. She needs to get right with herself and decide not to settle for "just some nice guy" but instead the right guy (which is easier said than done, I know).

[StarryNite]

16. Exactly!

She should consider herself lucky for that very reason. Some people pressure virgins to lose it. Some pressure them to keep it. Frankly, it's nobody else's business. It's his or her body to do with what they want. And if somebody has a problem with somebody else's virginity or lack thereof, screw 'em! (figuratively speaking, of course)

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

13. k&r Interesting thread. nt.

[Zech Marquis]

17. Im still a virgin

Just turned 35 earlier this month, and I'm proud to say that I'm still a virgin by my own choice. I chose to wait and have that first time really mean something special to me and whoever the special woman will be :-) I do have one very good friend in mind, but I won't lose sleep over trying to get it over with. I won't try to preach to anyone what to do--this is a personal choice each person must make for themselves.

[StarryNite]

42. Stay true to yourself.

You'll know when the time is right for you.

[Ellen Forradalom]

43. Good for you

If you are happy with your choice, I am happy for you.

[madokie]

18. I just can't wrap my little pea brain around a 30 year old virgin

I might could see a 21 or so virgin but a 30, nope just can't do it

[StarryNite]

20. You're silly.

:+

[Lisa]

24. let me get this straight -- you're offering to wrap your brain around a virgin?

I can't claim to be an expert when it comes to reproductive biology, but I don't know if that would actually change that person's "virginal" status. (Though they do say that the brain is the largest sexual organ.)

[madokie]

30. Can't never tell for it might be fun

;-)
oh btw I can attest to that last statement

please don't be offended by me

[Lisa]

33. big .... frontal lobe, eh?

(grin)

[calteacherguy]

47. Then you truly do have a very small brain. nt

[madokie]

54. theres no doubt about that ;-)

[treestar]

19. How ironic

Our mothers would have been ashamed not to be virgins on their wedding night, we have to start in junior high school? Whether we're ready or not?

It's too bad it has become such a minor part of life, sex. It means nothing now. All the romance is gone.

If a guy rejects a girl for being a virgin he was never into her anyway. Imagine that being a downer! The sexual revoluation was a big mistake. It took all the romance away and made sex trivial.

It's just a sport, it means nothing and you engage in the act of extreme intimacy with people you don't know, while they judge you not only on your body but on your "performance." Yeah, what love. :sarcasm:

Frankly, I thought men were to be more worried about that than women. And why do men still prefer younger women, then? We're less experienced when we're younger. LOL, the idea is that we are always wrong - damned if we do or damned if we don't - the concept is control. We're always "wrong" and the man gets to judge us. Our appearance and now, our "performance" our age, our weight. We ought to rebel and go on strike and just quit.

[NashVegas]

23. Our Mothers Were Less Virgins Than We Knew - Granny, Too

Huge study that came out last year (?) about that, although in most cases, the pre-marital sex involved was with future spouses.

But it's crazy right now. I was in a bookstore and happened upon a little paperback that basically said, "dating is dead, long live the hook-up, deal with it."

I think the hook-up is a load of crap.

[Lisa]

26. good point ... my folks didn't have me until they were in their 40s

And they had always maintained that they didn't date anyone else before they met. The implication being that I would be disinherited if I even thought about hooking up with anybody before I finished school. (I now suspect that they had co-ordinated their story before I asked.) Recently I found out that this was not true, and I even met one of my dad's exes.

Talking with other people who were raised in the 30s, 40s, and 50s (see my earlier post on having a lot of elderly friends!), I'm now seeing that there is often a difference between what one was "expected" to say about one's love life, and what actually happened.

[nonconformist]

27. I will never forget the day that my dear great-grandmother.....

told me and my mother, very matter-of-factly and totally out of the blue, that she was pregnant with my grandfather when she got married. You could have knocked us over with a feather!

[SoCalDem]

29. Every generation thinks THEY are pushing the envelope..

but doing math sometimes reveals that Gramma & Gramps licked that envelope years ago :rofl:

[Lisa]

31. yeah! check the cancellation date on the stamp!

A friend of mine is a genealogist, and she now makes a point of warning people before she starts helping them with their investigations, that they might have to throw out a lot of their preconceptions about their ancestors -- after they start doing the math on wedding and birth dates. There seem to have been an awful lot of 2 or 3-month "preemie" births surviving in the years before modern neonatal care, for example!

[SoCalDem]

35. Yep there have always been a lot of 7 lb preemies..(6 month gestation)

and from a time when stillbirths were rampant, due to lack of medical interventions for FULL term babies..

and there are many families that find out that Gramps wasn;t really their Mom or dad's father.. There were "cads" back then and the poor girls rebounded with that "nice guy next door" who "did the right thing" and ended up raising the pre-conceived kid as his own his whole life without ever knowing :) (some probably knew )

[Berry Cool]

66. I feel really sorry for those who grow up thinking the older girl in their family is Big Sister

and then one day they find out she's not their older sister after all...she's Mom...and the woman they thought was Mom is actually Grandma. Who took in her daughter's child and raised it as her own when daughter turned up pregnant.

I think that really messes up some heads but good.

[SoCalDem]

70. My aunt's friend had a wacky family

the friend got pregnant at 16 and the guy left town, so she married a guy from the neighboring farm (he thought the baby was his)..They had another child and then the war started.. She got word that he was killed, so she took up with another man (did not marry him)..Just like in the movies, her husband shows up (he was a pow who was rescued).. She was 2 months pregnant... she had not yet told the other guy, so her husband ended up raising 2 children that were not his..and she never told him ..she did tell my aunt, who told me :)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

76. Like Winston Churchill, for instance.

He was one of those healthy 7 month babies. In fact the newspaper notice said he was premature.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Kaylee]

143. God yes!! My mother went to a family reunion and found out

that our side of the family wasn't really related to them, rather my great-grandmother was actually the child of a woman on the side....thus our omission on the family tree.}(

[Yupster]

55. I think early sex and pregnancy was almost

as prevalent as it is today, but the difference was that most pregnancies back then ended in marriage where they don't today.

[Warpy]

32. My great grandmother outlived two husbands and

then had a child by a lover. Her eldest daughter had three children by three different men, not sure if she ever married any of them, my grandmother called her "Miss Tobacco Road."

One grandfather was gay. The extended family knew when he had a fight with his lover because my grandmother would get pregnant again.

Most women who had affairs just raised any children from them within the marriage. Men who had affairs just abandoned the whole situation, unless they were wealthy enough to be courtly and support the kid.

Unmarried people who had affairs had shotgun weddings. If the male in question skedaddled, the woman "went to live with an aunt" and reappeared six months to a year later, depressed.

To think our forebears were giants of morality is utterly ridiculous.

[NashVegas]

40. My Great-Great Grandmother Was a Madam

Who had 5 children by the same (married) man.

One of them grew up to be a state senator. Social mobility isn't what it used to be.

[regnaD kciN]

46. It's a strange, strange world we live in, Master Jack...

I know what you mean. I grew up right on the trailing edge of the era when virginity until marriage was assumed to be the norm for "good girls," and any girl not "pure" would have been treated as "damaged goods." (Not that guys wouldn't be happy to sleep with them, but there would be no way that they would think of them as potential marriage partners or even serious girlfriends, just "cheap f*cks.") Even when I was an adolescent, although it was generally assumed that some of us were having sex, girls would never want it to be known that they were among that group.

Now, it seems, being a virgin is just as much cause for being dumped as not being one was when I was young. It's a very, very mad world...

And, BTW, I don't think blaming the "sexual revolution" is enough in this case. When I grew older than the age I mentioned earlier, the general ethos was that virginity on one's wedding night was not a requirement, but that one was only supposed to have sex (especially the first time) with someone one knew and loved well, and had been involved with for some time. In other words, it was still supposed to be a big step. How it went from there (which was really the case through the mid-'70s) to now is a mystery to me, but I suspect it has a little to do with the rise of "free-market" conservatism that raises selfishness to a moral imperative and devalues other people except for what "services" they can provide to you.

And, finally, I would have to say that your line "If a guy rejects a girl for being a virgin he was never into her anyway" has to be the worst unintentional double-entendre of all time.

[John Q. Citizen]

50. To each their own. Worrying about what other people think or do is a losing

proposition.

There's absolutly nothing wrong with waiting for your true love and there is absolutly nothing wrong with getting laid because you want to.

Waiting for your true love or getting laid because somebody tells you to, on the other hand, is just plain idiotic, IMHO.

There are lots of very happy marriages that resulted from hooking up, there are lots of happy marriges that resulted from waiting for your true love, their are divorces from hook-ups and waiting for your true love, and some people just don't want to get married period, even with their true love.

Our bodies, our emotions belong to us, and anybody who gives over that power to what others do or think is, imho, on the wrong track.

All men are different, just as all women are different. I just can't buy into sexist pre-judgement about an entire half of the human race.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. my $.02

If a guy rejects a girl for being a virgin he was never into her anyway.

I have a slightly different take on it.

If I were dating at age 30 and I became close to someone who turned out to be a virgin, I'd have to be damn sure that she was "the one for me" before I did the deed. Why? She was presumably saving herself for an ideal man and in all likelihood, I'm not it.

It's not a turnoff because he holds her in less esteem because of this, it's a turnoff because he holds himself in comparatively low esteem.

[Berry Cool]

67. Perhaps he is making assumptions about the girl

that are not necessarily in evidence. How do you know she was "saving herself for the ideal man"? Maybe all she wanted was someone who met a certain minimum standard, or someone with potential.

[Lisa]

74. Or she might have found herself in a situation where she could have had sex, but ...

... doing so would have had negative consequences for herself, the guy in question, and other people as well. And if the choice was between that, and merely losing an opportunity that would likely present itself later (with someone else) -- it might have been the right decision for her, at the time. Personally I think sex has a bad enough rap in some aspects of our culture, without having it stigmatized as emotionally traumatic, negative, and with a whole load of unpleasant repercussions. Being forced to lose one's virginity under duress could ruin future enjoyment, and that's a sad thing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. If by age 30 she'd never met anyone who meets "the minimum standard"

... the likelihood that I do is minimal.

All she wants is perfection. Good luck with that.

[mondo joe]

127. It doesn't need to be right or wrong. Everyone can just find the partners that match their own

choices and desires.

If you like sex without love, have it. If you prefer romance, have it.

Take responsibility for your own choices.

[nonconformist]

25. I wonder if she would have better luck if she was forthcoming about it up front

I'm going to wager a guess that she is probably a bit awkward, which is why they guys end up asking and also probably why she's not more forthcoming about it. I do know a virgin in their late 40's, and he is admittedly socially awkward and suffers from low self-esteem, which increases as the years go by. :(

That said, the first guy's reaction really surprises me... I wonder if it had more to do with commitment than anything. He might have been thinking that if she was still a virgin at 26 and they had sex, what does that mean to her... when he was interested in something more casual.

Very interesting subject. I lost my virginity a couple of weeks after I turned 17, and I can't imagine my life without sex, so it's very intriguing.

[Herman Munster]

53. that's very sad

quite honestly, if I was in his situation, I'd just get a plane ticket to Nevada and go to one of the legal brothels and experience sex just to see what the fuss was about. You only live once and to deny yourself the most basic of human desires just seems wrong.

[nonconformist]

61. It is very sad

And he's actually a really athletic, very good looking man... especially when he was in his 20's, but even still today. Women used to hit on him all the time. :shrug:

[SoCalDem]

28. Oh bullshit.. She's wearing it as a "badge of virtuosity"

I do NOT advocate teens "losing it" , just to de losing it, but sheeez. Where has this woman been?

In MOST adult relationships that are "normal", after a certain amount of time, well.. things just progress to that level. and usually in one's late teens or early 20's at the latest..

This woman's afraid of something.. and I don't fault her would-be lovers for recoiling..

[NorthernSpy]

36. no, virtue is what she has; virtuosity is what she lacks...

Virtuosity comes only with practice.

This woman's afraid of something.. and I don't fault her would-be lovers for recoiling..

I dunno. Some people have weak appetites. Maybe she just hasn't got very strong desires, and going through with sex never really seemed worth the bother.

[SoCalDem]

37. Ya got me

Been busted by the grammar police.. I am an off-duty member today..apparently :)

but then she HAS practiced the skill of remaining virtuous, so maybe she IS a virtue virtuoso :)

[calteacherguy]

48. Wow, what do you feel threatened by? And why does everyone have to be like "most?"

Talk about narrow-minded, you fit the bill.

[LoZoccolo]

52. It is the guys' choice as well, but it sounds like they could have been more tactful about it.

If they were afraid that she would become too attached they could have expressed that they were concerned for her, for instance. It sounds like they were, but it didn't come through.

[SoCalDem]

57. I think they were afraid that if they were her "first"

and if she had saved herself for prince charming.... well maybe they were not ready to have someone that attached to them.

I am NOT in favor of casual sex, but by the time someone gets to be in their 30's it's pretty unusual to find a woman who has been saving herself for decades..and that you might just be that person she's been saving it for.. or thought you were the one..

tlak about making a guy skittish.. It's right up there with asking their opinion on wedding invitation designs, a few weeks after you start dating :)

[NorthernSpy]

80. there should be a way to say, "I was saving myself, but things have changed..."

... now I just wanna screw."

The forthright approach.

[Berry Cool]

68. You're making an awful lot of assumptions about "normal" people

and their "normal" relationships.

Not everyone fits the norm. But that doesn't mean the situation is recoil-worthy. Just a thought.

[Berry Cool]

34. What I fail to understand is why one's own sex life became just another party topic.

Why is it that it's the accepted thing nowadays to swap sex stories with both friends and strangers as part of the "getting to know you" social process? Whatever happened to people who believe in keeping private things private, in being respectful of your partners and not kissing and telling, even if one has "has nothing to hide"?

Has anyone never heard of "TMI"?

Why do we think that we should be social outcasts if we either a) have no sex stories to swap amongst our pals or b) have a sexual history, but choose not to share it by telling stories and sharing a communal laugh over it while we listen to those of others?

[Lisa]

38. maybe it fits with people being disinterested in culture, or current events?

Lacking anything else to make stimulating conversation about, perhaps they are resorting to something that they think will get a lot of attention (personal gossip)?

Just a thought.

I'm lucky enough to hang out with people who don't feel a need to dish out graphic details about their love lives.

[nonconformist]

141. So being open and honest about sex means you're a classless fool now?

There's nothing wrong with being open about sex. Sex is completely natural.

[Lisa]

142. Sure, it's possible to be open and honest ...

But that doesn't mean the same thing as talking only about sex and excluding everything else. I'm sure that even Dr. Ruth and Dan Savage, who do this stuff for a living, can discuss other topics and be just as lively and interesting.

Take this thread, for example. A lot of people have weighed in with very interesting and helpful suggestions, observations, and opinions. You yourself have contributed some thoughtful discussion. But you didn't feel the need to talk about sex non-stop. Why make it either-or? I suspect that if someone really is a "classless fool", it would become evident in a lot of other ways!

Personally, I don't mind if sex comes up (so to speak) in a conversation. But if there are lots of personal details involved, and I already know that the person's partner doesn't like having all their most intimate moments (even the ones that are just romantic) being shared with complete strangers, that can make me feel like I'm intruding on someone's privacy just by being there. Especially if the details are being shared just for shock value, or (worse) out of spite. I remember being at one party where my boss got drunk and started dishing ... I had never met his wife, but I just didn't get the feeling that it would be good to listen in (or remind anyone else about that particular conversation in the future). If your partner's cool with it (and even standing there contributing), sure.

As long as the two of you don't keep trying to shift the topic back to the awesome sex you had last night, when after a while the rest of the group wants to talk about sports, or movies, or the 2008 election. Then I suspect people would start wandering off to see if there's any food left. Just like they would if someone refused to budge from any other topic, like art history or gardening. If it's just another thing to have social conversation about, one's got to expect that not everyone is going to be riveted!


p.s. I liked your earlier point re: perhaps the two guys in the OP article were concerned about the woman's feelings. A cynic might suggest that they might have been worried about what she would do -- or say to others if they took advantage of her and then dumped her. But I would like to think that they didn't want to cause her a lot of emotional distress -- only they couldn't or wouldn't clarify that with her.

[NashVegas]

41. Because Sex Has Become Part of Our Social Culture

Like it or not.

[tammywammy]

45. I don't understand it either

I'm 27, and I rarely talk about my sex life with anyone, except my partner of course. It's just none of their business.

Now I do have a few close friends that I'll talk about things with, but even then it's not a graphic locker room type of discussion.

[JVS]

123. Read Foucault

[porphyrian]

44. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to be a virgin or wanting to have sex.

As long as people are honest about what they want and don't try to force the other person to do what they don't want to do, who gives a shit?

[calteacherguy]

49. Well said. nt

[porphyrian]

51. Thanks. It's really how I feel about it. -n/t

[cgrindley]

59. I wouldn't date a virgin

for that matter, at my age, (41), I wouldn't date anyone who didn't have a failed marriage behind them. If someone makes it to 40 without being married, losing their virginity, or having a string of a few 5+ year relationships... it's a red flag. Stay away.

[Berry Cool]

69. Then you're essentially writing off a whole universe of people

because you've decided they must be abnormal. Your choice, I guess.

[cgrindley]

86. No... I'm writing off a very very very tiny minority of people

people who are probably damaged goods for one reason or another. I don't want to deal with someone else's mental issues. I'm just not interested in having a relationship with someone who has anything so screwed up in their pasts that they've basically lived 25 years without love (physical or otherwise).

[wuushew]

87. Your lack of empathy is a big part of the problem

I sure hope you are not as tactless in person as you are on the anonymous internet.

[cgrindley]

97. It's not a lack of tact or empathy

it's just the cold realization of the way that the world works. Have you been married? Cause I have. I made the blunder of marrying someone with too much baggage the first time around. I don't advocate marrying out of one's socio-economic, educational, political or emotional milieu. Opposites don't attract and a marriage is way too much work as it is without setting it an impossible task. My second marriage is to someone whose values and lifestyle and education and so on are in tune with my own. It's a heck of a lot better.

Face it, the majority of people not only wouldn't have anything in common with someone who never had a serious relationship or never lost their viriginity or so on, the majority of people would be at odds with that person. No shared experiences whatsoever. It could never work. I, personally, wouldn't even try.

[NorthernSpy]

102. some people are just better at relationships than others...

I don't advocate marrying out of one's socio-economic, educational, political or emotional milieu. Opposites don't attract and a marriage is way too much work as it is without setting it an impossible task. My second marriage is to someone whose values and lifestyle and education and so on are in tune with my own. It's a heck of a lot better.

You're generalizing from your own experience: assuming that what's true for you must be true for most people. But couldn't it also be the case that the majority of people might actually better than you at making their relationships work -- even relationships with unconventional characters like the ones in the article? Maybe the "normal" experience is something other than yours, and most people are better at this stuff than you think.

You couldn't find common ground with a shy, sexually inexperienced person? Perhaps the real problem is that you might find a little too much common ground there. The problem with shy people is that their presence makes us acutely aware of our own insecurities, which makes us awkward and uncomfortable as hell.

The thing is, people marry "out of their milieu" everyday, and at least some of them manage to live happily ever after. But a person with a high degree of innate insecurity would find such a situation hard to negotiate. Putting all the blame for such failures on the "damaged goods" 40-yr-old virgin -- well, that sounds like a way to avoid examining oneself.

[cgrindley]

105. That's fair

I'd rather be with someone whose damage is similar to my own.

[LoZoccolo]

60. I know a girl who was a virgin until she was 27-28 and her reason was...

...simply that she didn't want to risk getting pregnant or getting a disease. That might have been more cautious than a lot of people, but there wasn't some big reason about trying to find the right guy or anything.

[jgraz]

112. Lame n/t

[Katherine Brengle]

115. Sounds pretty smart to me.

A bit extreme, but smart.

[Triana]

62. One word about the guy: What an arrogant, self-centered pr*ck...that is all (n/t)

[Mountainman]

64. I agree. My wife was a virgin when we met. She was in her early 20's.

It didn't bother us at all and I never talk about other women I've had relations with. Our love life is just between her and me and no strangers past or future.

[Triana]

65. You are a very wise mountainman! (n/t)

[Berry Cool]

71. Indeed.

Why is it anyone else's business at all? Look at all the assumptions being made about people right here on this thread...that there is something "wrong" with you if you haven't done A, B or C by a certain drop-dead date.

Who can be blamed for not wanting to toot their horn about what they have and haven't done, when all those conclusions might be jumped to by people as a result?

[Withywindle]

73. Well, to be fair...

if you're dating that person, it becomes your business. Everyone has preferences in partners. Everyone has dealbreakers. They aren't all the same.

Other than that, no, it isn't, and I would never presume to judge someone based on virginity. But by the same token, I'd appreciate the same amount of respect for those of us who, in the words of Mae West, "have been around the block many times...because we like the neighborhood." We get more than our fair share of judgmental BS to deal with too.

For the record, I like to toot my horn about what I've done because the anecdotes are hilarious, the same way all my Greyhound bus stories from the 80s are fun to tell. :D

[Lisa]

75. my friends who've "been around the block" are the first ones I run to ...

... when I have "navigational problems" with my love life. For example, I was in a situation this summer where I wasn't sure whether I was "reading the map" correctly, and I will be everlastingly grateful to a couple of fiftysomething women and a sixtysomething man, who have a great deal of marital and extramarital experience. I respect them greatly, because their human relationship advice (not just for romantic matters, either) is tops. They provided a tremendous amount of reassurance, and were not the least bit judgemental. Rather than feeling sad or desperate, I do not have regrets about any of my past decisions, and am looking forward to what the future will bring. (At least I've got some fairly amusing disaster stories to tell!)

[Mutineer]

82. Because if you haven't had a LTR by the time you're in your 40's or 50's

chances are there is something going in your psyche that prevents you from forming attachments to others and/or you're running away from your own sexuality. That's NOT healthy in the least.

[eridani]

72. Really stupid attitude

I'll bet there are plenty of shy late blooming types who'd turn out to be pretty hot given the chance.

[orleans]

77. i viewed my virginity as if it was a disease that i needed to cure.

i was really young when i tried to cure it w/an older boy who figured out i was a virgin (the hard way) and stopped everything because he didn't want to be the one deflowering.

it was so humiliating.

it's hard for me to "relate" to the idea that someone actually wants to retain their virginity, simply because i absolutely hated mine.

[ellie]

83. Me too!

I couldn't wait to get rid of it. It seemed to me like an extra appendage. I am still friends with my first (he was older). My husband and I hang out with him and his girlfriend sometimes.

[loser_user]

103. I hated my virginity as well

I was twenty when I lost mine. I felt so embrassed that I hadn't lost mine but all of my friends had already lost theirs. So I hired an "escort"...

[BurningDog]

78. What guy is seconds away from 'sealing the deal' and then...

starts asking questions about previous relations and partners?

[nonconformist]

84. Probably a guy who is in bed with a nervous, awkward woman

Who doesn't know what she's doing.

[Lisa]

131. "nervous", "awkward", "doesn't know what she's doing"

That describes me at my last couple of job interviews!

[Akoto]

81. I'm a virgin.

22-year-old male. I'm not one bit ashamed. When the time (and the other person) is right, it'll happen, and that's it. :)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

85. People are fucking idiots about sex...

...myself included. I lost my virginity at 21 and it sucked. We were both drunk and it was a disaster. It scared me and put me off sex and dating for a long time, which was stupid. I'm 28 years old and I only recently had my first serious relationship. And you know what? It was great. I should have done it a lot earlier. But you can't change the past. I tend to be fairly unapologetic for the way I've lived my life. I've got no fear of telling any partner about my past experience or lack thereof. If they can't deal with it its their problem, not mine. I'm confident and secure in my own skin, and if someone is going to judge my worth as a person or a partner based strictly on my previous sexual or romantic experience it says a lot more about their own insecurity than it does about me. The insane demands that we're putting on young people about their sex lives are ridiculous. No wonder people feel they're worthless when the image they're supposed to emulate is a fictional TV character. Who the hell is to say when's the right time to have sex? It's different for each person.

[CT_Progressive]

88. I agree with the guys - I'd never be with another virgin.

Far too much trauma and drama.

Besides, anyone who was that uptight/delusional about having sex ("ooo, its special!") is not the right woman for me.

Here are a few facts:

1) Sex is not special. There is no reason to "save yourself". That's like saying "Cheesecake is special, I'm not gonna eat any until I find the right baker." i.e. friggin stupid.
2) When women lose their virginity, it hurts a little, and often even bleeds a little. Its not an experience a guy likes.
2.B.) The trauma of losing her virginity transfers to the man who takes it. Subconsciously she blames him for it. It affects the relationship.
3) Sex is a skill, just like any other learned skill. Sex with a novice is horrible. They don't know what to do. Like all skills, sex skill gets better in only one way - thru experience (i.e. time). Many guys later in life (30+) do not want the hassle of spending the years of training required to make their partner acceptable in bed.

So, lets sum up.
- Go get laid, because waiting is stupid and serves no purpose whatsoever, and will likely relegate you to being a spinster.

Hope this post helps!

[jgraz]

90. Hoo boy are you gonna get it

:popcorn:

(I completely agree, but I'm glad you said it ;) )

[Katherine Brengle]

116. Ew.

[fizzgig]

120. those aren't facts, but opinions

i was 16 when i lost my virginity (he was 16 and also a virgin) and we were together for nearly seven years. there was no trauma involved for me, nor do i blame him for anything.

in my experience, the quality, if you will, is not all about how much experience the partner has. nor is every person the same, what pleased a previous partner might not please the current partner and (in my experience), there is a certain amount of 'training' in every sexual relationship.

[JVS]

126. I think all of those are worth dealing with in order to "boldly go where no man has gone before"

The relationship may end, but the memories and bar-room boasting will last a lifetime.

[jgraz]

89. Staying a virgin is a valid choice. As is not wanting to date one.

If a woman in her 30s told me that she was still a virgin, it would be a strong indicator that we have fundamental differences in how we want to live our lives. I'd have similar questions about someone who had never traveled, never been to college, was a strict vegan, a theist or (god forbid) a republican. Personal experience has shown me that certain obstacles are just too much work to overcome unless you already have a strong commitment to a person.

[CT_Progressive]

91. Good post. I would not date a republican, either.

Too big of a fundamental difference in ideology.

Same thing with a 30+ yr old virgin.

That doesn't make me a bad person. Just Free to Choose.

[alarimer]

93. Sometimes it isn't a choice

As is the the fact that someone has never traveled (that could be lack of funds or time, not just lack of interest). I was a virgin until 26 because no one asked. That simple.

[jgraz]

96. You never thought to ask anyone?

No offense, but someone truly interested in being sexual doesn't wait to be asked.

[alarimer]

100. Well, no actually.

Being sort of a shy person I am not one (or at least wasn't then) to take the initiative. I could no more ask than I could jump over the Empire State Building.

[jgraz]

101. See, that's exactly my point

I'm really not trying to judge you as somehow inferior or superior to anyone else, but I AM saying that someone with your personality would be fundamentally incompatible with someone who has a more outgoing, assertive approach to sexuality.

[TZ]

104. What about someone in their 30's who is a virgin

but not ENTIRELY by her choice (partially cause she's picky) and has actually been turned down BECAUSE of that said virginity? It becomes a kind of vicious cycle where while she wants to get rid of something that has become a burden, the few people she finds herself attracted to (and she can't just say you-sleep with me..there has to be some attraction of some sort) don't wish to deal with the issue.
I know multiple females in this situation (and some slightly younger male virgins as well). The ignorance of the multiple reasons for people to retain their virginity in this thread is quite depressing. The one I hate and seems to be underlying many posts is that if a person is still a virgin past 30 is a) saving themselves for marriage, b)not interested in sex or c) something is fundamentally wrong with that person and one needs to stay way away from them (ie ugly, mentally ill, emotionally crippled etc).
The cases I am familiar with fit NONE of those profiles. Prejudice agaisnt older virgins is rampant, IMHO.

[Herman Munster]

106. I think people just don't understand what they don't know

For many people, being a virgin past 30 is inconceivable and something so far out of their range of experience is strange and people tend to shy away from the strange.

Having this knowledge about human nature, if I was a virgin past 30, I would lie blatantly. It's just too much trouble explaining away why and having to justify that you are not damaged to someone.

If questioned why I appeared anxious, I would have a cover story prepared. Maybe say before intimacy that I haven't dated or been sexual in a few years and I am a little rusty but I really like you and blah blah blah blah.

If questioned on past relationships, just say you aren't one to kiss and tell. I prefer to keep the past in the past and look forward.

[jgraz]

111. Hah, that's happened to me

I have a close friend who I used to date on and off about 10 years ago. She recently told me that I was her "first". After I got over the shock of that revelation (and the guilt about how casually I had treated our relationship) I realized that all of the weirdness surrounding that time suddenly made sense.

Ironically, she recently tried a getting serious with a 30-year-old virgin after she'd been "playing the field" for a few years. It went just about as badly as our relationship did.

Sex is a big part of a relationship and people just need to be compatible in that area. Fortunately it sounds like there are a lot of older virgins out there. They just need to find each other.

[Lisa]

132. do you think it would have helped if she'd been up front about it?

Personally, if I had lied and then found out that my partner felt shocked or guilty as a result of the subsequent revelation, I'd feel bad about that. I am getting the impression, after reading through this thread, that it would probably be better to be honest from day one ... and be prepared for the possibility that the guy might want to leave, for various (and to him, perfectly sensible) reasons -- like the "hassle" (worries about emotional drama, years of training, etc.).

[jgraz]

133. Totally

We probably would not have had sex, since I was just looking for a casual fling and I was already a bit wigged out about the fact that she was 12 years younger than me. But, we would have gotten to this point in our relationship much faster, and I think she would have had a chance to look for a real boyfriend rather than waiting for me to "come around".

As it stands, we went through some pretty rocky times but she's now one of the dearest friends I've had in my life.

[Lisa]

134. that's good to hear

Both that honesty (as uncomfortable as it might be for both parties initially) has benefits ... and that the two of you are good friends now.

I recently had a situation where I could have picked up a guy who was on the rebound, quite easily -- if I'd been prepared to lie. But I liked and respected him too much to do that. Now we are really close ... even worked on a book together ... and trust each other completely. He calls me up to ask my advice on getting back into dating. I don't know if this will eventually lead to romance, but we sure wouldn't be at this place today if I'd made up a bunch of stories and taken advantage of him. It's quite possible that I've now got a friend for life. Enough of those ... and I may be so contented that it won't matter if I never get married.

[Herman Munster]

135. I'd frankly get experience any way I can if I was a 30 year old virgin

If it meant, I have to lie. I would lie. If it meant I had to pay for sex in a legal and safe way, I'd do it. I wouldn't get attached the first time. I wouldn't care about the other person's feelings. I would do what I had to do to fix my problem. It would be strictly "business." Strictly to get experience so in the future I would have a normal relationship without any self-confidence issues about performance.

The longer you wait. The more difficult it will be to have a normal relationship.

[Lisa]

136. If I felt I had to lie to a friend, just to have sex -- I'd have more wrong with me ...

.... than just self-confidence issues. As you point out, there are plenty of options besides that, if it really became an urgent matter. Personally I try to approach all relationships (whether or not they might lead to getting into bed with someone) as being worth of respect -- for myself, and for the other person involved. If that means I have a "problem", or am missing possible opportunities, I'm willing to take the flak for that. I was hurt pretty badly a while back, and I really don't want to put anyone else through the same thing.

Actually, in a couple of months, I will be 40 (and yes, I laugh whenever I see the title of that Steve Carell movie). I don't mind "outing" myself, since there have been a number of comments by people here in their 20s and 30s who feel self-conscious about admitting they are virgins. If not seeing myself as "damaged goods" is a symptom of being "damaged goods" -- guess I haven't got an answer for that, short of pointing out that it's circular logic. No regrets (at least, not about the sex thing). From what I have seen, I'm not having a better or worse time in my life than people I know who are married or dating.

[Herman Munster]

137. I'm not judging you in any way

Nobody has walked in your shoes. As long as you are living a complete and full life without having sex, who am I to judge you or care how you live your life? Do what makes you happy. There are surely enough dysfunctional relationships and marriages and diseases out there to give anyone a little pause about sleeping with anything that walks.

But if someone cannot do what you are doing and live a full life without sex and it's causing them a lot of psychic and emotional anguish that it is impedeing on their ability to be happy and live full lives, well I think they should do whatever they have to do to confront their demons.

In those cases, I think it's best to just get it over with. Postponing things is not helping matters.

[jgraz]

109. Like I said, I'm saying nothing about the "value" of someone who's a virgin @ 30

Just that I know that I wouldn't be romantically compatible with them. Just like I know many wonderful vegans, christians and introverts who I know I wouldn't be compatible with.

The same thing has happened to me many many times. I don't want kids. Ever. I've met many women who I was very interested in and who were very interested in me. Once they hear I don't want children, they bail. Immediately. That's just the way this stuff works.

[mondo joe]

125. I couldn't agree more. I don't know why the woman in the OP needed the approval of the man.

If you want to be a virgin, be a virgin. If you want to have a lot of sex, have a lot of sex. Do what you want to do - and if you're afraid to stand by your choice, don't expect to be treated with kid gloves by everyone else.

[alarimer]

92. That nearly happened to me

I was 26 or so the first time. Believe me, I felt like a freak. But the only reason for it was that NO ONE ASKED. No guy had ever appeared to be at all interested in me. Not one. Not in high school, not in college, not in graduate school. I felt like a complete and total loser. So I did it with someone entirely inappropriate just to get it over with. And, you know, it was no big deal. Sex to me is still no big deal. I don't feel I need to save myself for someone special. I have, I guess, a casual attitude towards it. I do it if I feel like; If I don't feel like, then I don't. It is just something to do, a need to be met. I have those needs, even though I am probably not relationship material (having tried and failed numerous times, it is clear to me that I am someone no one wants to be with on a more or less permanent basis. Maybe I am too smart, too independent, too something or another).

[Kansas Wyatt]

94. I dated a 25 year old once, who was a virgin and she wanted me...

To be her first, which I was. No it's not exactly grand slam fun being a virgin's first, but it's no reason to act like an asshole about it either. If someone is dating someone, then you would think that person cared about the other and their feelings, and would not want to hurt the other's feelings in any way.

[nonconformist]

98. I think that the guys were far more concerned about her feelings than she led on

I think they were worried about taking her virginity at this late stage, and what that would mean to her. If a man isn't ready to commit yet, and he was thinking this was something more casual, I can see why they would shy away from this scenario.

Let's face it - if they really weren't concerned for her feelings, they would have had sex with her and then blew her off.

[Mandate My Ass]

99. I agree.

There's something weird about her two "close calls" where she's practically naked and doing it after months of dating when the topic comes up for the first time. It seems she wants something in exchange and it spooks the men.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. "Celibacy is it's own punishment" - bumper sticker

[originalpckelly]

107. Where are these women??? Me = totally willing to help out.

:rofl:

[Herman Munster]

108. LOL, i think you are on to something, I think all these virgin women

need to start a internet dating site. I'm sure lots of men and other virgin men in similar situations would be very interested in helping.

[coffee_strong]

110. From conversations I've had

with some men regarding this matter, having sex with a virgin is a turnoff b/c of the pain factor. If a guy is just looking "to get lucky" he may not be patient enough to take things slowly.Hence not wanting to be so delicate. I see nothing wrong with people abstaining. Who are we to judge if someone is a 3oyro virgin. I think it's the same as judging someone who is very promiscuous.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

114. Wow, I knew the broad brushes would come out eventually.

Apparently some women feel threatened by men who treat sex as a normal part of adult life :shrug:

[Katherine Brengle]

117. Of course sex is a normal part of life, never said it wasn't.

I said men (in general, which clearly make exceptions for some men) fear women who do not make themselves sexually available.

Didn't take long for the "broad brush" accusation to come out, and it never does.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

119. The guy she had been dating for three months asked that question because it's a less rude form of...

"DO YOU EVER PUT OUT?"

[jgraz]

121. If he'd been dating her for three months, he should have known the answer

[JVS]

122. There's a moment where "Why didn't I have sex with her yet" becomes "Maybe nobody did" in the mind

[jgraz]

124. It says a lot about how their communication had been going up to that point

Probably not a good match for either of them.

[HEyHEY]

128. Three months and no nookie? I don't know whether to think he's a good guy

Or a pathetic weakling.

[JVS]

130. I think he's a good guy who suddenly realized the enormity of the situation

[cgrindley]

139. I wouldn't call anyone back after two weeks of no sex

nor would I recieve their calls. It's just a waste of time. There are plenty of more compatible fish in the sea. There's no reason to waste valuable time and energy on someone who views sex as something mystical and holy and sacred and special or as something that "seals the deal". Until marriage, there is no deal. It just doesn't count, to me at least, for anything. It's just humping. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be with anyone who thought it was special. That's embarrassing.

[HEyHEY]

129. If the chick is a virgin or the town bike, it doesn't matter

If you like her. And I say that from experience. I've dated the most timid, "Will be a virgin at 30 girl" and the most sex-crazed girl in the city. In Niether case did the lack of sex, or the friction burns on my pecker, make a difference. If a guy treats you like a freak cause you're a virgin, he's a dick. And, at the same time SHOULD be trying to convince you to have sex.
It's best to have a lot of sex when you're younger. Get all that fucking around out of your system, then do a few things you'd be ashamed to admit. That way, when you meet someone special, their past won't matter so much, cause you'll both be praying neither brings it up. ;-)
I have a friend who when her last BF asked her how many guys she'd slept with she answered, "I'm not telling, because it will become and issue for you." He kept persisting, so, she dumped his ass. WHo needs that crap? So, go fourth and fuck.

[madokie]

140. There is some good advice there

two can't get on it and one can't tear it up, so try as you may