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I can't help but feel that Hillary is more liberal than the way she is coming across

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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:29 PM
Original message
I can't help but feel that Hillary is more liberal than the way she is coming across
I think that as a woman, she feels that she needs to project a tough persona. I think that is why she is being somewhat hawkish. My gut feeling is that she is not that way at all. Thom Hartmann was on The Ring of Fire on Air America today saying that some of America's most progressive presidents did not campaign that way, but they turned out great. He said that, for that reason, he would be fine with Hillary. She does have her faults, but I do feel that if she were to become president, she would do the right things for America and would end up being a lot more progressive than many people here at DU think she would.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. ?
are you saying it takes a repuke to be "hawkish" ?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. No.
Edited on Sat Oct-27-07 11:39 PM by aquart
What I got from that statement is an understanding that the first serious woman candidate CANNOT give the impression that she bakes cookies and gets the "vapors" from anything stressful. She has to project the image that if anyone harms a hair on an American head, she will nuke their asses. Anyone who pretends otherwise is, ahem, pretending.

Hillary Clinton is walking a minefield and the worst grenades they've hurled are that she's accepted legal money from people who want to give it to her, that she hired the best PR firm money could buy (which also conveniently prevents it from working for her opponent), and she "cackles." That's impressive any way you look at it.
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1620rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. I agree, I think she is holding her cards close to her vest while
telegraphing a different hand to disenfranchised repuks and Conservative Dem's.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Agree. Smart move on her part.
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rusty quoin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. I like the way Thom Hartmann speaks about 'we the people' influencing our leaders.
It doesn't happen in the neocon party, because they don't believe in 'we the people.'
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. No, no.
It's just that they believe that only THEY are "We, the people." The rest of us are squatters.
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rusty quoin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Yes, you are right. Two different worlds.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. Who and what we are, our activism, will be a significant factor
in what any Democratic president becomes.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. God, I hope so. Too much power to hand anyone.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
22. Yes! That's part of what has gone wrong.
People voted and then ignored their responsibilities to advocate for themselves on their own issues.

Political activism should be as common as sports.
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. You might have a point. I've suspected she's doing a little "Acting"
Edited on Sat Oct-27-07 11:39 PM by BlueJazz
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daninthemoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. Let's hope so.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. And I can't help but feel that the aliens from Aldeberon will soon land, and - with their advanced
technology - will solve all our energy problems, reverse global warming, and teach all mankind to live in peace and harmony forever after.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. I think your feelings are closer to reality.
:dunce: :rofl:
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Thanks. I gotta tell ya, if naivite were an energy source, we'd NEVER attack Iran.
*sigh*
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. She is a pro-corporate progressive, bottom line.
You can bet gays and choice and minorities etc will be protected. You can bet she will not cave on any single conservative pet issue. And you can bet she will play ball with corporations, simply because that's what she has to do to win.

And that's not bad, not near as bad as people act. There are corporations doing good and interesting things, providing us with the technology that allows us to be on this forum for example. It doesn't all have to be about war-profiteering and slime, and I think she knows that.
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Elidor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-27-07 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. So...you think she's an insecure phony?
I don't perceive her as insecure, but she's got the phony part down cold.
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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. I don't think she's insecure either
But she does come across as being insincere and calculating and does what the focus groups tell her to do. I think that she feels if she campaigns as a liberal, she would be perceived as being too weak to lead the country. So she is putting up a tough facade. I had always felt that the first woman president in America would be a Republican just because Repubs are naturally more fascist.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 12:02 AM
Response to Original message
15. and i can't help but feel that you're letting your feelings get the best of you.
she's a dlc dino corporatist.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
17. I think she is also preparing for the general election, when most
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 12:05 AM by pnwmom
Dems tack toward the center, and then are accused of being inconsistent.

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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
19. Agreed. She is in faux-Thatcher mode right now, trying to make
the general population comfortable with her as the strong-on-defense type of a woman executive.

I believe she plans on governing much more to the left once she's in the Oval Office.

She's still beholden to corporate purseholders, but she's more progressive than she lets on.
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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
21. That's odd
I can't help but feel Hillary is more corrupt than the way she is coming across.

To each their own, I guess...

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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
23. i don't agree
remember she used to be a repuke.
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
24. Good for you.
Personally, I think it's a load of cr4p. In my own defense, I'm a woman in a severely male-dominated industry. I'm still myself and do quite well there. I'm NOT a hawk or a wanna-be guy. It's not necessary, IMHO.

I guess whatever makes you feel better is fine, but she has a LONG way to go to make me understand her motives. Especially since I've already lost one good friend in this war (RIP, K - March, 2003) and now my best friend is on her way over there in January. I'm not finding Ms. Clinton's hawkishness "cute" or "appealing" or "a way to get people to take her seriously." Maybe it's just me.

Seriously - I'm glad you can give her some leeway. I'm finding myself very short on that capacity at the moment.
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JMDEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Bravo!!!! nt
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-29-07 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Thanks, JMDEM. n/t
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
26. You are projecting your liberal ideals onto Hillary.
She is liberal in some respects and very conservative in others.

If she is elected, NAFTA will continue essentially unchanged to the detriment of American workers.
Pension law will not be changed, and corporations will be able to promise the sky and then deliver hot air to their employees at the end of their employees' careers.
Hillary will "review" the scope of the illegal powers that Bush has claimed, and she will make a big show of relinquishing a few of them, but she will keep some of them, and she will not tell us until after she has been elected which ones she will keep.
We will leave Iraq at a speed that Hillary's corporate minders agree to, but don't count on our leaving the Middle East until she has "dealt with" Iran.
Hillary will talk a lot about energy independence and alternative energy development, but she will defer to the big energy companies with regard to how government subsidies for energy development are spent. Don't want to offend anyone you know, especially not anyone with lots of money.
The pharmaceutical companies and big insurance providers will sit at the table and "negotiate" a health insurance plan that will mostly insure that us little guys pay the maximum in premiums and those big guys provide the minimum in benefits. (The public insurance alternative will be underfunded and not provide adequate care to those of us who are poor or in the lower middle class. Wouldn't want to have to raise taxes on the rich, you know. Of course, everyone will have the "freedom" to choose their own plan, so the rich will continue to have great coverage if they need insurance at all.)
Ask, don't tell will continue to be the policy for dealing with GLBTs in the military. Just don't get caught being what you really are.
The religious right will be given a hand out without concern for protecting the religious freedom of the third parties for whose benefit the tax funds they receive are supposed to have been budgeted.
The corporations will continue to pay their CEOs however much they can possibly wrench up without concern about the shareholders' interests.
Social Security will continue to exist, but as the inflation that inevitably follows the folly of war grows to unparalleled levels, the method for determining cost of living increases will be changed, and many elderly will find themselves literally out in the cold or be forced to rely on their children and the largess of strangers for survival.
American jobs will continue to be outsourced. The name, Clinton, will continue to be very popular in India, China and elsewhere.
Taxes will have to increase -- and to be "fair" they will increase on "everyone" equally, meaning the lower and middle classes will pay through the nose while big corporations and those whose income is considered to be capital gains pay relatively little compared to their incomes.
College tuition will continue to rise, but student loans will be be available -- and not dischargeable in bankruptcy. In fact, the current oppressive bankruptcy laws will continue to benefit the credit card companies, banks and collection agencies. Again, have to be fair to everyone, especially those who write big checks to Hillary's campaigns.
Habeas corpus will be "restored" but with certain limitations that did not exist before Reagan.
Birth control will be funded by the US government, but abortions will not, and if Roe v. Wade is overturned by the Court Bush has appointed, well, what can a poor girl do? Amending the Constitution to guarantee a woman's right to choose won't be the priority of a Hillary presidency.
Schools will continue to test and test instead of teaching critical thinking. Don't want to be soft on teachers, you know.
Oh, and welfare reform, remember that wonderfully liberal Clinton "compromise" with the right -- as inflation increases and the job market worsens, it will become more and more difficult for the single mothers with several children, the mentally ill, the physically disabled and the simply unemployable to survive.
And, Homeland Security will continue to be well funded and privatized. The rise in the unemployment statistics that would result from defunding the national obsession with spying on ourselves would look really bad. It will just be easier to keep people busy snooping on each other. The worst criminals in the country do their dirty deeds in corporate offices far from the nosy eyes of Homeland Security.

If you really like the scenario I have depicted, vote for Hillary. But please don't pretend you are voting for a liberal when you do. You will only be fooling yourself. Hillary is getting all the press coverage for a reason -- she is the most conservative of the Democratic candidates. The moguls that own the MSM know who she is and what she stands for. She is, for them, the least likely threat to their power, their money and their ideology.

I want a liberal who will stand up for liberal ideals. My candidate is John Edwards. I understand he gave a great speech in Des Moines on corporate responsibility and regulation. Check out his website. He is ready to be president. Kucinich, Obama, Biden, Richardson, Dodd. They are all great too and any one of them is more liberal than Hillary. So don't settle for a cheap imitation when you can have the real thing. Forget about Hillary if you want a liberal in the White House.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Excellent, excellent post! You've nailed it! I hope everyone on this reads it.
One point where I differ with analysis; under H. Clinton, social security will NOT "continue to exist" as it is now. The DLCers & Hillary are already making noises about their splendid "new" plan for pushing people into private retirement accounts.

see this thread

Wishful delusions about H. Clinton being some sort of stealth liberal are sadly misguided. What she REALLY is a stealth privatizer.

sw
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
27. Nov 2003 "stay the course"
The opposite. She will always have to take the hawkish action because she chose to use a tough persona. She will be afraid she won't get re-elected unless she does that all through her first 4 years. It'll be better than a Republican, but it won't be the progress we really need. People are going to be highly disappointed.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
28. I think she is
on many, many issues.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-28-07 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
29. I'm just afraid her need to prove herself to a predominantly "male" world
Edited on Sun Oct-28-07 05:57 AM by shadowknows69
might include showing "the guys" she can wage war as good as any of them. Maybe this is a sexist view of it but that's not the only thing I don't like about her. I have thought this myself on occasion but if she's bluffing the centrists she needs to let us on the left know she's still on our team somehow.
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