Kinsley: The party that reels in these voters will dominate the future of American politics.

[Warren DeMontague]

(And here's a surprise- they're not "values voters"!)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1673265,00.html

They don't care--or at least they don't think the government should care--about what people are reading, thinking, drinking, smoking or doing in bed.

[piedmont]

1. woot woot!!!

:headbang: :bounce:

[Drum]

2. K&R

I like to read MK

[sendero]

3. When I try to decide...

.. if I'd prefer a Libertarian or a Republican running the country, it is a REALLY tough decision. I suppose they are a teeny tiny bit better than Republicans, but only a little.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. I think the distinction needs to be made amongst the various types of libertarian philosophies out

there, too.

For instance, I consider myself socially or left-libertarian, I think the drug war is a waste of time, I think people should control their own bodies and reproductive systems.. I think that if consenting adults want to look at pictures of other consenting adults having sex it's not the business of would-be nanny statists on the right OR the "left".

I also support fiscal discipline- I think it's unconscionable that we spend half a trillion a year on the Military-Industrial Complex, or $40 Billion a year to keep people like Willie Nelson and cancer grannies from smoking pot.

But I support a SPHC system, a decent social safety net, a livable min. wage, strong environmental laws and regulations on corporations.

[Az]

20. Na, the Libertarians are in general more dangerous than the Repubs

The Libertarians are fanatics about a singular idea of rejecting government. This places them in an unthinking state. The repubs despite all their flaws still think the government should be doing some good. Whether its the same good we perceive is another matter. But they still see it as somewhat functional.

[sendero]

22. Exactly...

This is the way every one of them I've talked to thinks.

Libertarianism is simply the mirror image of Communism. Communists think the state can and should control everything, Libs think the state can and should control nothing.

Both are simplistic abdications of any kind of effective action, both are doomed to fail.

If you took business, taxes and economics out of the typical Lib platform, I'd be a Libertarian. But it is a huge and impossible to overlook If.

[GOPBasher]

4. It's not true that people are tending more libertarian on economic issues.

Just as one major example, because I don't have much time, a strong majority of the country agrees with universal health care, and they're willing to roll back the Bush tax cuts to do it. That doesn't seem very libertarian to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. That's the logical flaw in these kinds of generalizations. I make a big distinction between

social or left-libertarianism embodied in the idea of letting consenting adults run their own lives and control their own bodies, and crazy talk about privatizing sewers and fire departments.

Frankly, I think the way to win is to clearly articulate solid socially libertarian "keep government out of my personal space" arguments combined with sensible real-world solutions that rely on a social safety net- like a SPHC system- that can be justified both from a social welfare perspective along with a fiscal one. I think that way we could draw in disaffected "libertarians" and greens to boot. Right now we're not doing a tremendous job with either group.

And the bottom line is, anyone with ANY kind of "libertarian" impulse is alienated by the GOP, because it's run by fundamentalist flat Earth whackjobs who want to throw everyone who fucks for non-procreative purposes in prison. AND they piss away trillions of dollars on crazy, wasteful shit like Iraq, "abstinence only" education and the drug war.

[williesgirl]

5. k&r

[orleans]

6. michael kinsley lost me awhile back. i seem to remember something

about him not covering election fraud, or saying the election wasn't stolen. that was it for me.

[philly_bob]

8. Ditto. He pooh-poohed biggest story of his time.

Whether or not the story involves machine fraud, as I still believe it does, the story led to Rovian "vote-caging" and Gonzalez' packing of DOJ civil rights units with party-line Young Republicans.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Kinsley has Parkinsons, unless I'm mistaken. I suspect he's as pissed off as anyone that the fundy

nutjobs who control the GOP are holding science on things like stem cells hostage.

What I find most disturbing is that so few in our party are willing to stand up loud and unapologetic for things like civil liberties. Separation of church and state. The right of people to do what they please with their own bodies, including reproductive rights. Hell, most Americans are pro-choice, yet we're told that abortion is a losing issue for us. :shrug: But beyond that, I don't get why our people aren't out there every day hammering on the right of citizens to use birth control- a huge majority of Americans believe in contraception, yet the GOP base is thoroughly anti-contraception to the point of embracing an agenda of eventual criminalization of most if not all forms of contraception.

But we've been fed this noise about the 'values voter' for so long that it seems our people are afraid to take strong stands on personal freedom issues, from choice to censorship to the drug war.

[ShadowLiberal]

14. The reason

"Hell, most Americans are pro-choice, yet we're told that abortion is a losing issue for us."

That's because of where the momentum is on the issue, prochoice people are less likely to let it decide their vote then antichoice people. It's because of this that a vocal minority on an issue can get it's way in politics if enough of them are willing to heavily base their vote on that issue.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. I think it's a lie, frankly, perpetuated by the corporate media. And it's falling apart.

The GOP just may nominate a pro-choice, thrice married crossdresser for president, giving lie once and for all to the myth of "all powerful values voter". They have momentum on this issue according to whom? Were you aware that 1.2 Million Americans came out in April of 2004 to march for reproductive choice on the Mall in DC? (I was one of them) Were you aware that this was the LARGEST peaceable assembly on the mall in United States History? EVER?

You could be forgiven if you didn't know all that, because the media under-played it to a ridiculous degree. But the idea that the "momentum" is with the anti-choice crowd is a lie.

[provis99]

9. Ugh. I'd rather chase after values voters than libertarians

Libertarians and Ayn Rand freakazoids can fill in "Ronald Reagan" in their voting booths, since they all think democratic government, responsible to the people, is the great evil of our day. Who needs em?

[Warren DeMontague]

12. I guess you didn't really want to read the article.

Anyway, chasing after values voters is how we got the wonderful crowd running the show today.

Not everyone who identifies as "libertarian" (small l) is an "Ayn Rand freakazoid".

Do you support the drug war? Want to fill our prisons with pot smokers? Do you think your tax dollars have nothing better to do than censor pictures of consenting adults fucking? Are you opposed to a woman's right to choose?

If you answered "no" to any of the above, you have "libertarian" tendencies. Sorry.

[artemisia1]

16. So true.

So true. I think many on the left are economic liberals and social libertarians (as in, stop worrying so much about what your neighbor does in the privacy of their own home, provided, of course, there are no victims).

[Az]

21. This is where there is wiggle room

Not all Libertarians are the philosophically fanatical Libertarians that are dangerous. Many are just fed up with politics and can be brought around. The small l libertarians usually are fixed on one aspect (social or business) and flexible on the other (business or social).

[sendero]

23. The problem is..

... there is no way to separate the social libs from the economic ones.

I'm in complete agreement with the social libs but not at the cost of the economic ones, who would be an even bigger disaster than the Repubs if their policies were implemented.

These morons still talk about less business regulation and oversight. How many Enrons do you think we'd have then?

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I disagree. It's not difficult to separate economic libertarianism from social libertarianism.

It's very simple, but it requires the ability to separate small-l libertarianism the philosophy from the big-L Libertarian Party. And the recognition that NEITHER party is speaking effectively to people who want civil liberties restored, want the government out of citizens' bodies, bedrooms, and bloodstreams, want an end to the drug war, want prison space reserved for violent criminals and not pot smoking cancer grannies, don't think government should be in the business of censoring films or pictures of consenting adults having sex, think gays should have full equal rights, including marriage rights, etc.

And as for the economic libs being "worse"... Well, look at it this way- right now the GOP has embodied the absolute WORST of the WORST of the economic libertarian philosophy- frankly, business regulation and oversight has been stripped down as much as physically feasable. If you think there are folks out there who are MORE anti-regulation and oversight than the Bushies, give them their number, and the Bushies will hire them. But what the GOP has done is combined this with spending like a drunken sailor on shit like Iraq.

That's why I say we can reach ALL the libertarian types- even the economic ones- because they have to know that no matter who is in charge, SOME money is going to be spent by gov't. So should it be on a SPHC system, or on idiotic wars based on lies? Research into clean renewable fuels? Or the Military Industrial Complex?

I think the place for our party to start is to articulate a strong, across the board personal freedom agenda- equal rights for GLBT citizens (incl. marriage), unapologetic support for reproductive freedom, an end to the worst idiocies of the drug war, the right of terminally ill people to a pain-free, dignified exit of their own choosing, getting gov't out of the censorship/morals business where consenting adults are concerned, etc.

Then combine that with support for a SPHC system, a liveable minimum wage, investments in our infrastructure, etc. Explain to the econo-libs why these things make sense from a fiscal standpoint, and in the process we would bring on board disaffected greens as well.

The only people who it would piss off are the DLC conventional wisdom folks, who want the party to be nothing except GOP-lite.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. I knew libertarians in Oregon

Essentially, they didn't like restrictions on personal behavior, but their personalities were marred by a smug disdain for anyone who wasn't affluent. They were the "I grew up poor and started a successful business. What's wrong with those other people?" types.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. Here's the ever popular political compass test.

Whether or not people agree with it, it's interesting to note (I don't have the graphic right now) that most of DU falls in the lower left quadrant, and most of the candidates for BOTH major parties fall in the upper right.

http://politicalcompass.org

[qdemn7]

18. I really like this part

And every time the Democrats lose an election, critics scold that they must put less emphasis on the sterile rights of individuals and more emphasis on responsibilities to society. That is, they should become less libertarian and more communitarian. Usually this boils down to advocating mandatory so-called voluntary national service by people younger than whoever is doing the advocating.

Did I mention I really don't like Communitarians?

[Az]

19. Libertarians are fanatics

And fanatics are dangerous. They hold to a singular idea that government is bad. They stop just short of anarchy but they are kindred spirit. The problem with their fanaticism is they completely miss the danger that is the Corporate entity. They also miss the spark of goodness that is our humanity. Thus they smother that which is good while enabling that which is most evil in our society.

The Libertarian would have everyone one forced to become an expert in everything in order for them to brave the world of the consumer marketplace. Open to every form of psychological manipulation the Corporations can turn loose the people would not stand a chance. Without regulations to keep them in line Corporations would run a muck over the population in their monolithic drive for profit.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. Big-L Libertarian Party members, maybe. People with small-l libertarian philosophical Points of View

including large swaths of DU, are another matter.

The fact is, and this article is less about the big-L Libertarian party as it is about the libertarian impulse- our party has done a piss-poor job of speaking to people who want the government to do their job, and not play preacher/morals ninny. Who want gov't out of their bodies, bedrooms, and bloodstreams. Who believe the bill of rights needs to be respected, not redacted. etc.

[VelmaD]

26. I get really tired...

of being told libertarians think the government should butt out of people's lives. Maybe it's just the libertarians I've met, but I've yet to meet one who wasn't anti-abortion. They want the government to leave THEM alone but they have no problem poking their fucking noses (and letting the government control) my reproductive organs. Not to mention most of the libertarians I've met were racist, sexist, and homophobic.

[Bongo Prophet]

27. For decades, the term "civil libertarians" was used for what ImpeachDubya terms "small-L"or left-lib

People used to be able to differentiate.
I agree that Big-L party Libertarians are doctrinaire to an extreme degree and won't budge on issues.
I used to use the Libertarian argument to peel Repugs into the L party, where they might do less harm, (:evilgrin:) and even met Andre Marrou, the L candidate in 88. He told the joke to us about the Greens (then rising in Germany)being red inside ("if you cut one open"haha, not) and that exemplifies the contempt that I saw against ANYONE that fell off the ideological bandwagon in the slightest.
"Privatize the National parks? Are you guys serious??"
They were a pain to be around, so I gave up talking to them. ALWAYS RIGHT - in their own eyes.
Culturally, I am too flexible and progressive to not feel in a box around them...

I think on observation that the word libertarian is now too tainted by association with the party, and yet the concept of progressive/liberal/social freedom is far too important to NOT have a term that people will immediately understand. Whatever we call that liberal freedom, I think it is important to give peole ways to describe their POV in hybrid terms. Sometimes people may be "socially X but economic Y", and we want them to lean toward OUR side, while they figure it out! (socially liberal works for me, and helps revive the term liberal in a specific context)

[Warren DeMontague]

28. How many self-identified small-l libertarians have you come across on DU who are anti-choice?

I'm sure you've seen the graph where most people here sit on the lower left quadrant of the political compass.

I agree- Ron Paul, for instance, is anti-choice and anti-separation of church and state. I don't know how anyone can claim with a straight face that that is any brand of "libertarianism".

To me, left or social libertarianism means that one supports the right of people to make their own decisions about their own bodies; absolutely that includes the right of women to control their own reproductive systems. That includes the right of people to use birth control. It also includes the right of consenting adults to have sex in front of a camera and other consenting adults to watch films or look at pictures of that sex, which is where certain sub-groups of otherwise "pro-choice" liberals seem to get their noses out of joint. It includes an end to the idiotic drug war, support for the bill of rights, support for civil liberties, and support for FULL equality (including marriage rights) for our LBGT citizens.

If you can find me an example of a self-identified "libertarian" on DU who is anti-choice, point me in their direction. I'll be happy to try to set that individual straight.