Being Gay is like being Black

[rucky]

You're born that way. It's not an affliction. It's part of a person's identity, and how much of a person's identity it comprises is up to each individual - and nobody else to ascribe it upon them.

EOM

[xultar]

1. I agree.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. Yup.

[terrya]

3. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Hell, I realized I was attracted to boys in grade school. How could that have possibly been a "choice". At that young an age? How could I have been mature enough at that age to make such a mature decision?

You ARE born that way. I don't understand the exact reasons why...hell, no one really does. But you are born gay or straight or bi. It is NOT some "lifestyle" choice. And any idiot who thinks they can "pray the gay away" is a deluded idiot.

[AndyA]

4. That says it all. n/m

[CreekDog]

5. Marsha Warfield said it's harder to be gay than to be black

"Because you don't have to tell your parents that you're black."

[Catherine Vincent]

81. Is she gay? n/t

[CreekDog]

124. I don't know. She's a comedian, it was a joke, it was funny. Relax. nt

[pnwmom]

146. The gay and black man in my family

my father's partner -- agrees with her. He grew up surrounded by other African Americans, but felt isolated as a teen who was gay.

[deaniac21]

162. Plus gay people are really supported in the black Community.

[Karenina]

168. WHICH segment of the black community are YOU referring to?

Just wondering, cuz we are not a monolith. In the Arts community it's a no-brainer, non-issue.

The southern fundie hyper-xtian doo-da can be supportive as filial love and duty, while shedding tears that the "afflicted one" is going to :evilgrin:

[mondo joe]

6. I agree. There are differences in experience, but yes.

[supernova]

7. Yep.

And because we are born to be attracted to who we are, there is no legal, moral, or ethical justification for discrimination.

[amitten]

8. I think that's pretty obvious. Those who believe otherwise just

are not very bright or perceptive, or at all logical for that matter.

[Psychmd]

9. One difference

You can tell that your child is black at birth. Sexual identity whether homosexual or heterosexual emerges much later. It is in there somewhere at birth and some parents can see it way before a child develops a sexual identiy as a teenager.

[Wcross]

10. However, you can pretend not to be if needed.

Say you go to a job interview, it is not necessary or legal to tell them your sexual orientation. Kind of hard to not be black at the interview. Yes, I know employers are not SUPPOSED to discriminate.

[Neecy]

11. this is true, to an extent...

I know it's often said that we can 'pass', and that's the difference.

But passing requires a sacrifice that's demeaning, stressful, and ultimately harmful. It's like living a lie or a double life, and it's a toll that I doubt many would willingly pay unless absolutely necessary - like our military members, for instance. What a cruel thing to put them through...

[yardwork]

12. "Passing" is always demeaning, stressful, and ultimately harmful.

[soothsayer]

13. yes, but your parents don't hate you because you're black

[Wcross]

15. So you agree, being black is not like being gay?

I agree with you in your statement. Unfortunately there are some parents who aren't all they could be. Most parents love their children regardless.

[mondo joe]

25. Do things have to be identical to be alike?

[NorthernSpy]

112. no, but everyone else does, apparently...

Another day, another steaming load of resentment dumped on the doorstep of lucky ole Black America.


Figures.

[Touchdown]

14. And...flip the coin.

Blacks don't throw their sons and daughters out of the house and disown them for being black.

[rucky]

17. Here's a hypothetical for you...

Just something that you made me think about:

You're having a conversation with someone who doesn't know you're gay, and that person starts making homophobic remarks. What do you do?

The similar has happened to me a couple few times. People don't know I'm Jewish and make cracks. I've learned to handle it more gracefully, but must admit I take pleasure in watching them squirm.

[Lilith Velkor]

21. Being gay is more like being Jewish than being black

Others on this thread have already made most of the points I was gonna make in response.

on edit: Actually, not really. The similarity only goes so far as the 'passing' thing. As far as I know, gay parents don't try to pressure their kids into being gay themselves.

[izquierdista]

29. Opposite sides of the coin

Children have to be told by their parents that they are Jewish.

Parents have to be told (well, maybe the perceptive ones don't) that their children are gay.

[Lilith Velkor]

44. Back in my day, it was a religion and not an ethnicity

Of course, it's also the case that back then, you could sleep with a member of the same sex a few times and not have to base your whole identity on it. *grumblegrumble-kidsthesedays-grumble*

[izquierdista]

119. Which tells us your ethnicity

Apparently, you are not from a part of the world where "Jewish" is considered an ethnicity first, and only secondly a religion.

[Lilith Velkor]

166. How so?

My post says nothing about my ethnicity, just that I grew up on the east coast of the US. :shrug:

[mondo joe]

129. I don't know what day THAT was, but in Nazi Germany it was sure considered an

ethnicity - didn't matter if you converted or not. And I know my Israeli in laws are all atheists but consider themselves ethnically and culturally quite Jewish.

[Lilith Velkor]

167. 1970s and early '80s

One generation after the Holocaust, people were hypersensitive about the ethnicity thing, and understandably so. I was told the Nazis made the whole thing up, so it seems very strange to me to base an identity on that, but then again, gay people used to proudly wear pink triangles. The second generation after WWII has a perspective on the Nazis that I don't get sometimes.

My Israeli friends are Satanists, and when asked, say they are culturally Jewish and ethnically "homo sapiens."

[mondo joe]

24. And yet they are alike in that they are innate and immutable.

You can dicker with the details if you like.

[Chovexani]

28. There are blacks who can and have "passed" for white

Please read up on some history.

[Wcross]

32. Also some gays that have passed for straight.

Rock Hudson comes to mind.

[Chovexani]

54. It's sad all around

Psychologically damaging to say the least.

One aspect of GLBT life that straight people don't understand is that every time you come into a new situation, there are decisions you have to make about how open you're going to be. Homophobes always like to spin this as "your sex life should be private" because gay is all about sex, you know :eyes:

My last job was very open and affirming, sexual orientation and even gender identity was included in the anti-discrimination part of the company code of conduct. Two of my trainers were openly gay and so was my supervisor. I have never felt so welcome in a workplace. We had a GLBT employee group in addition to the black employee group, American Indian group (I'm in Phoenix so there's a large native population). The groups co-sponsored events and it was just a wonderful place to work in terms of the diversity.

Unfortunately I got laid off from there and the office I'm working for now (student finance planning for an auto technician school) is a lot smaller and the company doesn't have any kind of protection for GLBT employees. There is a transwoman who sits at the desk next to mine and she takes an unbelievable amount of shit behind her back. There is one woman who latched on to me real fast because there aren't too many black women in the office and they tend to be cliquish, and she was constantly making comments about lesbians due to one who quit recently, before I started. I kept my mouth shut--yes it was cowardly but I panicked. There's a guy who started the week after me who is very attractive and nice and all the women have hit on him except me, he is gay and is terrified of people finding out. So we are each other's beards now.

Listening to my co-workers go on about their husbands, wives and children, pictures of their loved ones on their desk, while knowing that if I say anything about my girlfriend their opinion of me will inevitably change, and potentially hinder my ability to do my job...that is something straight people never have to think about. I feel like a coward, but what can you do?

[Karenina]

151. You join the disciples of Little Richard

and Jes. Shut. Up. This is called "trying to SURVIVE in a hostile environment"(as Dangermouse's little sidekick put it).

"Passing" has its advantages but includes the fears you describe and much, much more no matter WHO is doing it. Change your name if you're a Sunni in a Shi'ite area... Such a depressing long list.

I've a cousin in Munich who I will likely never see there. He's in the banking sector and his colleagues ALL think he's white.

His older sister is a contrast in comedy. We've done some stunning send-ups over our lifetimes. Please indulge me just one. :rofl:

Her "Year Group" Verein decided to tour my city, so she asked the members for and an exception for her cousin. (This Verein keeps records of students and sends out invites when they turn 50 to join. It's a club network of same-birthyear groups who plan activities together. I'm a year younger and required a special dispensation, which was warmly extended).

Some people "get it" and some can't or won't. But I'll tell you what. This "ex-gay" folderal is a hot-button in these quarters.
So are Fundies of any stripe.

We met at a Brauhaus and as I sat down the farmer sitting across from me introduced himself with German the equivalent of, "Welcome cuz!" Once everyone was seated, a ditz w-a-y down at the other end of the table (My cousin has done her two weddings. Seating arrangements ARE important. Just ask any bride.) said, "I thought your cousin was coming! Who is your friend?" Herr Farmer raised himself slightly, leaned into the center of the table and just looked at her for what seemed like an eternity. When he settled back into his seat our whole end of the table all burst out laughing! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Chovexani]

153. LOL!

Germans crack me up. My best friend in the world was born in Germany and came over when she was 5 (her dad is Indian, mom is German). She learned English watching cartoons and the Price is Right.

Her mom is a real trip. She's this quiet, unassuming little German lady with a sword collection to rival a museum's, and loves Beavis & Butthead (hearing her call someone a buttmunch with her accent is comedy gold). You'd better bring her the correct beer from the store, too.

One summer my friend's brother came to visit, and we took her mom to a flea market in Chelsea...my friend's husband (who is Puerto Rican) came along. We left her mom and went to get food, when we came back we couldn't find her, so the four of us shouted, "MOM!" at the top of our lungs. You can imagine the scene when two German-Indians, a Puerto Rican dude and a black chick yelled that on a New York corner. :rofl:

[pnwmom]

147. Gov. Jim McGreevey, Sen. Craig, and a multitude of others.

[Catherine Vincent]

95. Speaking of passing....

My mom forwarded a dvd to me recently of a movie called "Pinky". It's about a black woman in the 50's that was sent up north to school by her grandmother who sent her every penny she could scrap up by washing and ironing clothes. She was sent to get an education and while there, she therefore passed for white. She wasn't intending on doing this but everyone thought she was white so she just went with the flow. After she became educated to become a nurse and engaged to be married (to a white doctor), she decided to find her way back home to her black grandmother that sent her on. Although she was passing for white and had the good life up north, something in her brought her right back where she started. Her fiance' went to get her and found out she was black but wanted to marry her anyway but wanted to move out west where no one would find out. She told him to leave because she said she was too proud for that. She would know and he would know and it would be living a lie.

I thought it was a very good movie. You should check it out. Very educational.

[Chovexani]

104. I will have to Netflix that

Sounds very interesting.

[Wcross]

114. I just added it to my list, THANKS cat_girl!

The new releases are all crap these days, this one sounds interesting.

[mondo joe]

125. Pinky is okay, but it's no Imitation of Life - and I mean the real 1934 version,

not the Lana Turner one. Though Ethel Waters was in Pinky, which is a real treat.

[CT_Progressive]

34. This is a pretty insulting remark.

To imply that gay people have to "pass" as straight, implies that gay people "look gay" and have to "act straight" to fool people. As if every gay man wears pink and talks with a feminine voice, and every gay woman wears flannel and talks with a gravelly voice. I find this remark pretty demeaning to homosexuals.

Gays and lesbians don't have to "pass" as anything. They simply can be themselves, and their sexual lifestyle is simply off-limits.

Period.

[Wcross]

60. I am not saying gays should HAVE to pretend.

I am saying that for the most part sexual orientation is not as obvious as ethnicity. The O.P. stated that being gay is like being black. I contend that it is not. Being a realist, I know people still discriminate in hiring, in housing & other aspects of life.

[mondo joe]

164. People do discriminate. Gay people, however, do not have even the protection of the

law in many situations. It is so extreme that in some cases parents have lost custody of their children only because they are gay.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. actually so can SOME black people, hence the invention of the term passing,

SOME gender conforming gay people (like me) can pass but a lot (like my gf or brother) cannot pass.

[goddess40]

89. I'd liken it to being atheist

Atheism isn't a choice just as being gay isn't a choice. People have a herding desire so they want to be like the rest of the herd for safety and comfort so being Atheist is definitely outside the box.

It's okay to hate both groups - the then Vice-President Bush thought that Atheists should have their citizenship revoked and be kicked out of the country.(With parents like this asshole and Bab's the low life it isn't to surprising that their offspring our human trash)

Edit: you can hide atheism to some extent, unless you live is a community that takes "attendance" at church. Fortunately, for Atheists we, if we're straight, we can date and marry who we choose without more prejudice.

It's just sad that we are still having conversations about this shit - it should matter and anyone with a brain in their head and a heart in their chest knows that.

[NOLALady]

141. "Kind of hard to not be black at the interview"

Not always. Many fair skinned blacks will do what's necessary to get a job. If they feel that they would have to pass, than pass they will.

[Wcross]

142. Yep, it depends on the individual.

It is much more difficult to mask/cover-up/hide skin pigmentation than it is to cover sexual orientation.

[mondo joe]

144. And what do you do after the interview anyway? If you get the job?

Pretend to be hetero? Make up a cross-gender name for your partner? Bring a beard date to the holiday party?

[Wcross]

155. Have you ever asked a black man that question?

Oh, never mind. You are obviously baiting me into a pointless argument that will waste my time. Being gay is not like being black.

[mondo joe]

156. I might ask a gay black man - but I don't know why I'd ask a straight black man about

living a closeted gay life.

Make sense, please!

[Wcross]

158. Yep, I knew you would try to waste my time.

[mondo joe]

159. I knew you wouldn't bother to support you "point".

Thanks.

Enjoy your unexamined proclamations.

[DU9598]

16. Don't forget

Very few churches damn you to hell for being black.

[ellacott]

18. Why is there a comparison?

[Karenina]

22. Comparison? It's a commonality.

We "others" of all descriptions KNOW the ravages of -isms.

[ellacott]

31. commonality

I guess if you say so....

[rucky]

that would be the purpose of the comparison.

to show a commonality when there seems to be rift.

[Karenina]

130. Kinda like Truth and Reconciliation.

;-)

[Lex]

19. Black parents, family, friends expect their children to be black

and don't ascribe some mental defect or lack of religious belief to it.

[ellacott]

67. and don't assume that you know what I'm going to say(post)

Where in the world did that come from? You guys are funny.

[Der Blaue Engel]

76. That wasn't an assumption of what you were going to say

Allow me to butt in for a moment, because I see you're misconstruing the above post. "...and don't ascribe" was a continuation of the subject line, not an admonition to you; i.e., "...and {they} don't ascribe."

I assume. Heh.

edited for using term from the wrong post

[ellacott]

102. No problem butting in

That was my mistake and I offer my apologies.

If you hadn't butted in I wouldn't have realized I misconstrued the post.

[Skidmore]

20. Too bad it seems that we can't all work on being human together.

We are all born one way or another. Not a single one of us does not have something about us that opens us to attack or derision. Not one of us, from the top of the pyramid where privilege affords much to the bottom of the heap. We all bleed red, we all suffer, we all need love and care and shelter.

[jgraz]

23. I mean this in the nicest possible way: who cares?

This whole "choice vs inherent" business is a red herring from the real issue: that it's nobody's fucking business what anybody does in their bedroom. I get frustrated with this kind of framing when the real answer is "get your fucking nose out of my sex life before I break it off."

:rant:

[Lex]

26. it's not just about sex

nt

[jgraz]

37. It is to these right-wing freaks

That's all they care about. The answer to them should not be "I was born this way", it should be "shut the fuck up you inbred moron."

[rucky]

35. Maybe they have no choice in their sexual preference...

but they should be free to express their identity any way they see fit.

Who cares? You may not. But many openly gay individuals send a message to other gay people that it is okay to be open about who you are. It's not something you have to hide or be ashamed of - and it's not an identity that's limited to your sexual practices. It's an entire culture that has been built from the (under)ground up. One that is (in theory) safe, non-judgemental, and accepting.

[jgraz]

36. I think we're in violent agreement

My only point is that the "choice" debate is not the issue with these right wing freaks. Even if a private sexual matter is a choice, that doesn't give them a right to stick their nose in our business.

[mondo joe]

42. Being gay isn't about my "sex life".

[jgraz]

47. See post 37

[mondo joe]

52. But you were saying YOU think the answer is to say "get out of my sex life".

Why would I say that if it's not my sex life?

[jgraz]

53. The response to the homophobes. Making sense yet?

At any rate, this is a side issue to my main point which is this: The right of religious freaks to judge homosexuals should not be predicated on whether it's a choice to be gay. The debate seems to imply that if somehow homosexuality could be shown to be a choice, then it would be OK for the xtians to condemn it.

[mondo joe]

62. I think we agree more than we don't, so I don't want to belabor the

differences.

:toast:

[jgraz]

65. Yep. Chalk up my inelegant language to how much this issue pisses me off

I don't think there's a single issue that pushes my buttons more than homophobia. Perhaps animal abuse, but it's close.

[LeftHander]

27. What if you are black and gay...?

[Chovexani]

30. We don't exist

We're like unicorns, in a way.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. like real bisexuals? who are also apparantly unicorns

:crazy:

:hi:

[Chovexani]

50. Invisible unicorns!

:crazy:

[rucky]

45. Identity is more complicated than the categories we put them into.

But Black culture exists, and gay culture exists - partially out of need for safe havens of acceptance for each said common identity trait. In theory, at least.

[xultar]

33. Just one other thing. Gayness can be hidden in most cases. Black can't in most.

So that makes things difficult on another level, but I do agree that it is something people are born with.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. passing is something that has occured in the black community before.

and many gays also pass, whether intentionally or unintentionally. there are certainly plenty of gays who dont pass.

[kwassa]

57. only a very few blacks could ever pass for white

the physical requirement being no detectable black heritage.

[xultar]

58. True.

[mondo joe]

41. True. But I don't think it has done gays any favor. If I had the power

to make every gay person visually distinguishable through some natural means, I'd do it.

[noamnety]

46. you mean

like having little pink triangles to identify them as gay?

:(

I don't think we need to wear our sexual preferences on our sleeves. It's a private matter. Having skin color easily seen, or gender easily seen, obviously hasn't done much to prevent discrimination or hate crimes.

[mondo joe]

49. Don't confuse being identified with being identified for the purpose of

persecution. Thanks.

[noamnety]

55. well. that's true.

but being identifiable makes them targets for persecution. That's the reality we live in.

Why would you wish that on all gay people?

[mondo joe]

63. Because, as a gay man, I believe relative invisibility hurts us more

than it helps us.

[noamnety]

72. That was my point in the previous post

being visibly female just makes us more visible targets for assault.
being visibly black makes people more visible targets for police (and other) harrassment.

Being visible hasn't helped us any that I can see. We just get targeted by more people, nonstop. One woman who I know through another blog emailed me recently to say that every single day, without fail, she was harrassed while walking across campus. My daughter has told me the exact same experience. She's never walked down our street without getting yelled at, not once, since junior high, and she's in college now. Not one time.

I don't think you can judge which group gets discriminated against most, it's a crime against humanity any way you cut it, but that one small piece, the ability to shape-shift and become invisible in your minority status, that's a thing that so many of us wish we could do, when we need a break and want to be able to walk from here to there, just once, without getting screamed at.

[mondo joe]

74. Being invisible contributes to gay powerlessness and bigotry.

If more people knew who was really gay, they'd be less anti-gay. If gays couldn't hide being gay, more people would know who we are. It's proven that the thing that most moves people from being anti gay to gay friendly is actually knowing out gay people.

[NorthernSpy]

92. the ability to pass is an incredible luxury and advantage...

To deny that is just foolish.



I think that you are being naive in the extreme.

[mondo joe]

115. The ability to pass leads to isolation, especially for gay kids who are at high risk for suicide.

Yeah, that's a real luxury.

[mondo joe]

117. You wish you could pass for male????

Do you really think if women could pass as men and non whites could pass as whites that it would improve the lot of women or racial minorities?

Not a chance.

You also fail to see the cost of invisibility - far slower progress on social issues, and incredible isolation - especially for very young gay people who are a high risk for suicide - as well as lives spent in the closet - a very bad place to be.

[noamnety]

138. There was story on This American Life a while back

at least I think that's where I heard it, about a guy who was asking everyone about what superpowers they wished they had. One thing he found was that when he asked "Would you rather have the superpower of being able to fly, or of being invisible?" Men generally answered they wished they could fly, and women just wanted to be invisible.

It's a privilege to have the option to switch it on and off. For every other group, being visible hasn't made misogyny and racism better. It just made us easier to target. About the only time we can compete as equals is when we find a way to hide our place in the caste system. We need to hide our gender and race on resumes (L. W. Fern rather than Laura Fern or Loyola Fern if we want to get a call back), we need to audition behind screens so orchestra directors can't see our gender, race, etc. If we are visible, we are marked as less than, and treated accordingly.

While I understand the suicide risk due to being marginalized and isolated, if you compare that to the risk of sexual assault, which for us is the cost of NOT being invisible - and also leads to suicide - or the increased risk of incarceration, you'd see being visible as a target is not a solution. I suspect if gays were marked all the time no matter where they went as being gay, they would also become greater targets for assault. And I doubt they'd see that as a privilege.

[mondo joe]

140. Yes, that was This American Life. It was a piece by John Hodgman.

You may think it's a privilege to be able to pretend to be something you're not, but my experience tells me otherwise.

It means a constant struggle to make yourself known, even when it takes more energy than you've got. And I thin if you look at the rate of suicide as an indicator of what a privilege it is, you'd see that the isolation is more painful to endure than the risk of sexual assault (which is not exclusive to heterosexual women, by the way).

If gays were marked all the time there's be less assault and anti gay bigotry. It wouldn't be a privilege - bu it would be real.

[mondo joe]

149. Also -

Something I believe you have misunderstood: passing isn't being invisible or unknown. Passing is pretending to be something you're not. It's denying who you are, as if it's shameful or dirty.

Internet message board are good for invisibility/anonymity - but in real life you're one thing or another. So "passing" as straight would be more like the equivalent of you pretending to be Lawrence Fern - not just using gender neutral apearances.

[xultar]

61. Oh I'm not saying that it has done favors. On the contrary not being able to be

true to yourself is depressing.

[ecstatic]

48. as someone else said, being gay is more like being Jewish

but I guess that's not as fun a statement since comparing anything to "being black" seems to add more shock value or something...

The commonality begins and ends with the scorn received by other members of society (hate crimes, etc.).

Yet when you look deeper, the consequences of the discrimination on each group is different--from economic results, to interactions in the justice system, housing, primary and secondary education, etc. But carry on... apparently everyone here has *direct* experience in being black and gay and know exactly what they're talking about.

[Bluebear]

71. Isn't "being Jewish" a religion?

[NMMNG]

78. Is that why so many people get beaten/killed

Because people merely think they're gay--and that includes people who are not?

And why should anybody feel they have to pretend to be straight?

[Bluebear]

82. once again . . . get out of my head

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2165256&mesg_id=2166574

[NMMNG]

90. We're barking up the wrong tree

Bigotry is OK as long as it's religious, and you're just asking for it if you fail to hide what you are.

And why I continue to post here I have no idea.

[weeve]

43. All good points ...

... which makes Obama's blindness to this issue even more troubling.

[bigwillq]

51. Yup (nt)

[CTD]

56. You mean, even if you pray *really* hard, you can't change your race?!?!

:sarcasm:

[kwassa]

59. Being Gay is not like being Black

Gays can hide their gayness, for the most part.

Blacks can't hide their skin color.

[mondo joe]

64. And no black parent has ever abused or rejected their kid because he or she is black.

They're not IDENTICAL.

They are ALIKE.

[kwassa]

68. actually, that is not true

Black parents have rejected their own kids for being too dark-skinned.

you said:
They're not IDENTICAL.

They are ALIKE.


What's the difference between identical and alike?

[mondo joe]

69. They still weren'tr rejected BECAUSE of their race.

Plenty of kids are rejected for appearance.

What's the difference between IDENTICAL and ALIKE?

Alike means there are similarities.

Identical means there are no differences at all.

[kwassa]

73. you said "because they are black"

which is the precise reason for rejection, not that they are African-American and the parents are not African-American.

[mondo joe]

75. Oh, I see. Word games.

Gotcha'.

[kwassa]

79. no, clarity. There is a difference.

[mondo joe]

116. Fine. Let's be clear: African American parents don't reject or beat or abuse their

kids just because their kids are African American.

[NorthernSpy]

152. some whites do

Not all "blacks" come from entirely black families.



http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2007/10/12/plea_deal_approved_in_parental_abduction_case/

[mondo joe]

157. If you can take that story to heart you may begin to understand what it is to be a gay

teen far too often.

[NOLALady]

150. Some black families reject darker kids because

they are like the black race. This happens sometimes in families who are of mixed ancestry. The child is not rejected because of his appearance but because he appears black.

[LanternWaste]

165. One is specific, one is general.

One is specific, one is general. One is an analogy, while the other is a duplicate.
"This is to this, as that is to that..."


(Is the Analogy section still in the SAT's or whatever the standardized tests are called these days...?)

[Bluebear]

70. Ah, how do they "hide" their gayness? You suggest the most "effeminate" man can act that well?

You suggest that there aren't many variations of what a gay person presents innately to the world and that some people can't, ans shouldn't have to "hide" it?

You suggest that there aren't variations of African-Americans, from Vanessa Williams to Seal?

[kwassa]

77. Historically, most gays have done just that, hide it.

in the closeted pre-70s era.

You suggest that there aren't many variations of what a gay person presents innately to the world and that some people can't, ans shouldn't have to "hide" it?

not a question of should or shouldn't, it is a question of "can".

You suggest that there aren't variations of African-Americans, from Vanessa Williams to Seal?

Nope. But as light as she is, Vanessa will always be judged black.

[Bluebear]

80. In the pre-closeted 70's there were a whole lot of murders & assaults too.

Which go on to this day for someone who is "perceived" to be gay. So it's shortsighted to suggest that gay people can hide who they are so easily.

[kwassa]

84. It is still a very poor analogy, and always has been.

[Bluebear]

86. Oh OK well that settles that I guess.

[kwassa]

93. glad you agree

[Bluebear]

99. I don't, but you knew that. Carry on.

[SidDithers]

66. I agree, but with one major difference...

If a person so chose, they could hide their homosexuality from the rest of society. Kinda hard for a person of colour to do that.

Otherwise, you're bang on.

Sid

Edit: I should read the thread before responding to the OP. This point has been made and addressed by many others upthread.

[mondo joe]

118. That is one major difference, but there is another:

black kids are born into black families - they have communities and peers. Gay kids don't have that, and often live in isolation and fear.

[pnwmom]

145. And because they CAN, they are often pressured to do so. Some "choice."

[NMMNG]

83. Oh, forget it

I'm not going to even bother with this one. It's obvious where this thread has gone. :banghead:

Thanks for the attempt, though, rucky.

[Bluebear]

88. Do you love how every 5 subthreads someone says "you can hide being gay!"

Rucky tried to explain that they are both inborn parts of you, and dammit if people don't have to argue "it's not the saaaaame:". :eyes:

[NMMNG]

91. Love isn't the word I'd use for it

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

94. As in they LOVE to highlight how we are different rather than similar.

What a sad thing to do.

[NMMNG]

96. All the easier to keep us down

Funny how they hate when others do that to them. And rightly so.

[Catherine Vincent]

103. I think they mean you can hide being gay in the eyes of others.

In other words, if you're white and gay, you can get away with it....if you don't want to out yourself.

[Bluebear]

105. I know what they mean, but not everyone can "hide" being gay,

People are murdered just for being suspected of being gay.

[Catherine Vincent]

106. Yeah, that is true.

I think there should be town hall meetings with blacks that are anti-gay and with gays. Something has to be done. These blacks are very stubborn when it comes to their bigotry. A lot of them don't even realize it. I try and explain this as a civil rights issue to the ones I know but I'm only one person. I will say that I did get some of them to start thinking.

[NOLALady]

148. The homophobic blacks that I know

will use the Bible as justification for their bigotry. I try to explain to them how the Bible was also used to justify slavery and Jim Crow.

[rucky]

108. Thanks

I wasn't trying to make it into a contest, honest!

[NMMNG]

113. I know you weren't

Unfortunately it ends up being that way in these threads. :sigh:

[Der Blaue Engel]

85. Damn straight!

Er...you are correct, sir. }(

[Catherine Vincent]

87. I agree.

But what about the individuals that grow up believing they are suppose to be a certain way and don't realize it until they are married?

[rucky]

109. Society sure makes nature complicated, eh?

[pnwmom]

97. Except that most Black people have the advantage

of being born into families with other people who are Black, too.

[NorthernSpy]

110. they also have the advantage of being easy to pick out of a crowd...

...weed out of the applicant pool, etc.



Yeah, those blacks. They've got all the advantages.

[mondo joe]

122. I'd take it. I've never tried to hide being gay as an adult. I make sure to let people

know - in the event they couldn't tell.

The closet is a lousy place to be. I'm surprised you envy it.

[NorthernSpy]

127. I do consider being able to pass an advantage...

Those who can do this have the freedom to CHOOSE whether to blend in or stand out when dealing with the majority.

Those who can't do that don't have that freedom.

More freedom is an advantage, is it not?


So yes, I think that blacks are probably right about the high psychological cost of being permanently and indelibly marked as the dark stranger in your own country.

[mondo joe]

128. Would you pass, if you could?

[NorthernSpy]

131. would I pass for what?

?

[mondo joe]

132. For a race or gender or orientation other than your own?

[NorthernSpy]

134. why not?

:shrug:


Was I supposed to say no?

[mondo joe]

136. Is that a yes, or a no?

?

[NorthernSpy]

137. you're not sure... there's a certain ambiguity... can't quite put your finger on it...

Hey -- maybe I'm "passing" RIGHT FUCKING NOW!


:rofl:

[mondo joe]

139. Do you just not want to answer the question? You can say so.

[pnwmom]

143. Why not? Because it leaves you with a sense of shamefulness,

that you have something to hide.

Passing, pretending you are something you aren't, because that's what the majority culture wants to see, is painful.

[Bucky]

98. Interesting that you didn't say "It's like being white"

There's a subtext to this comparison that I don't like. Possibly.

[Bluebear]

100. Both are minority groups fighting for equality, is that so much of a reach?

[rucky]

107. No subtext, but plenty of context

all over the DU.

[mondo joe]

120. Because it's not as much like being white. Though it is equally innate, the status

of minority / majority is quite dissimilar.

[Deja Q]

123. But THAT would be racist, wouldn't it?

It's the same reason why we can have a Ms Black America pageant and not a Ms White America pageant.

:hide:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

160. dude, your lack of understanding of social issues is monumental.

[Bluebear]

163. He made a big show of putting me on ignore, but just for you :) . . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2173843

[Cha]

101. That's right and it's also

like being White..

[marmar]

111. I think Mel Boozer, a gay black man, sums it up pretty well:

"I know what it means to be called a nigger. I know what it means to be called a faggot. And I can sum up the difference in one word: none."

[Deja Q]

121. I know black people who would disagree with you until the cows came home and drink each others' milk

In short, y'all would be disagreeing for a very long time.

And the religion of one of them openly supports the execution of homosexuals as well, but that's another story...

In short, "The world is made up of all types" was the most thoughtful aphorism ever, even eclipsing the much vaunted "May one live in interesting times."

And when one person looks at one's own life, should others step in and dissuade them from their own thinking?

[mondo joe]

126. They are enttled to be wrong. NT

[Az]

133. A caveat

You are born with your sexual proclivity just as you are born black. Where that proclivity lies upon the gradient that is sexuality is another question altogether. Many people are near one extreme or the other but we all lie along the gradient somewhere. Some people are closer to the middle and thus find attraction to either gender. The place your mind is wired for on the sexual scale is fixed but there is an amount of flexibility we all have. This too varies from individual to individual.

But simply put sexual identity and preference are not things chosen. They are things realized.

[Toasterlad]

135. Per Your Statement, Being Gay is Like Being Black, Yes.

No one can argue with the similarities you've posted. However, as others have pointed out, there are also many DISsimilarities. IMHO, there is no reason to compare the two experiences unless you're trying to make a point about equality, which, of course, should be self-evident to anyone anyway.

Race is no more or less important an issue than sexual identity. Equal rights for ALL.

[Toucano]

154. So what is "being Black"?

Black "looking"? 2/3 Black? 1/2 Black? 20% Black?

Is there "gay looking"? 2/3 Gay? 1/2 Gay? 20% Gay?

Your point about nobody else ascribing and identity on another person is well put, however.

[Snarkturian Clone]

161. Thanks for the reminder NT