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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:10 PM
Original message
The Confederate flag was hanging in the garage
Edited on Tue Oct-30-07 03:55 PM by bigtree
Dick Cheney says he didn't see the Confederate Battle flag hanging in the garage during his visit at the Hudson Valley gun club in Dutchess County New York. I have no doubt he knew it was there, though. Undoubtedly, it was hanging in the garage alongside of the old license plates, right over the old pickup truck, as a symbol of regional pride or, perhaps, as a commemoration of the flag Southerners shed their blood for.

But, to me, the rebel flag a symbol of resistance to the Union, and also, to Civil Rights, as it was resurrected as a symbol of opposition to efforts to legislate protections for blacks in the '50's. I frankly don't see anything worth defending about the battle flag. I'll bet Cheney does.



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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tribal vs Progressive Societal values
It seems to me the Confederate flag speaks to some people's tribal sense of society. It is the result of insular attitudes about culture. Those who are not like us should be seen as alien and separate. And most importantly our moral considerations only extend to those we consider to be part of our tribe.

It is the dismissal of a larger progressive society. A rejection of diversity. Built on fear and intolerance. It is the call to drive out that which is not like us rather than a call for tolerance and understanding.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Like a burning cross, the Confederate flag is a symbol of violent racism.
As you note, people began flying that particular flag in the 1950s as part of a violent response to the Civil Rights Movement. The meaning is crystal clear to those who fly it and those who see it. It means, "I am a white supremacist and I am willing to use violence to protect my privilege."
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NavyDavy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. hear hear
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Agreed
And I don't buy that Cheney didn't see it. Not for a moment.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. It's like neo-Nazis celebrating the regime that reduced Germany to rubble.
And then there was the repercussions on the survivors, vide:

"Nutritional levels and Famine
For several years following the surrender German nutritional levels were very low, resulting in very high mortality rates. Throughout all of 1945 the U.S. forces of occupation ensured that no international aid reached ethnic Germans. <27> It was directed that all relief went to non-German displaced persons, liberated Allied POWs, and concentration camp inmates.<28> During 1945 it was estimated that the average German civilian in the U.S. and U.K occupation zones received 1200 calories a day.<29> Meanwhile non-German Displaced Persons were receiving 2300 calories through emergency food imports and Red Cross help.<30> In early October 1945 the U.K. government privately acknowledged in a cabinet meeting that German civilian adult death rates had risen to 4 times the pre-war levels and death rates amongst the German children had risen by 10 times the pre-war levels. <31> The German Red Cross was dissolved, and the International Red Cross and the few other allowed international relief agencies were kept from helping Germans through strict controls on supplies and on travel.<32> The few agencies permitted to help Germans, such as the indigenous Caritas Verband, were not allowed to use imported supplies. When the Vatican attempted to transmit food supplies from Chile to German infants the U.S. State Department forbade it.<33> The German food situation became as worst during the very cold winter of 1946-1947 when German calorie intake ranged from 1,000-1,500 calories per day, a situation made worse by severe lack of fuel for heating.<34> Meanwhile the Allies were well fed, average adult calorie intake was; U.S. 3200-3300; UK 2900; U.S. Army 4000.<35> German infant mortality rate was twice that of other nations in Western Europe until the close of 1948.<36> (see also Eisenhower and German POWs)


Forced labor reparations
As agreed by the Allies at the Yalta conference Germans were used as forced labor as part of the reparations to be extracted . By 1947 it is estimated that 4,000,000 Germans (both civilians and POWs) were being used as forced labor by the U.S., France, the UK and the Soviet Union. (see also Eisenhower and German POWs) German prisoners were for example forced to clear minefields in France and the low countries. By December 1945 it was estimated by French authorities that 2,000 German prisoners were being killed or injured each month in accidents.<37> In Norway the last available casualty record, from August 29, 1945, shows that by that time a total of 275 German soldiers died while clearing mines, while 392 had been injured.<38> Death rates for the German civilians doing forced labor in the Soviet Union ranged between 19% - 39%, depending on category. (see also Forced labor of Germans in the Soviet Union).


The social effects of Rape
Norman Naimark writes in "The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949." that although the exact number of women and girls who were raped by members of the Red Army in the months preceding and years following the capitulation will never be known, their numbers are likely in the hundreds of thousands, quite possibly as high as the 2,000,000 victims estimate made by Barbara Johr, in "Befrier und Befreite". Many of these victims were raped repeatedly. Naimark states that not only had each victim to carry the trauma with her for the rest of her days, it inflicted a massive collective trauma on the East German nation (the German Democratic Republic). Naimark concludes "The social psychology of women and men in the soviet zone of occupation was marked by the crime of rape from the first days of occupation, through the founding of the GDR in the fall of 1949, until—one could argue—the present."<39> Some of the victims had been raped as many as 60 to 70 times.<40> See also (Soviet war crimes (WWII)).


Hostility against Germans
The post-war hostility shown to the German people is exemplified in the fate of the War children, sired by German soldiers with women from the local population in nations such as Norway where the children and their mothers after the war had to endure many years of abuse. In the case of Denmark the hostility felt towards all things German also showed itself in the treatment of German refugees during the years 1945 to 1949. During 1945 alone 7000 German children under the age of 5 died as a result of being denied sufficient food and denied medical attention by Danish doctors who were afraid that rendering aid to the children of the former enemy would be seen as an unpatriotic act. Many children died of easily treatable ailments. As a consequence more German refugees died in Danish camps, "than Danes did during the entire war.""<9><10><11>"

Wikipedia

Yet, all that sticks in the minds of those poor mutts, is the sight of German troops marching triumphantly into Paris, etc. As Joe Bageant remarked, in the face of similar stupidity: "Let me go and slit my wrists" (...or words to that effect).


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Progressive_In_NC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. The funny thing is, most of the poeple who fly it have no privilege
The only privilege left in America is for rich folks of any color. Poor Southern folks or anybody without a lot of money flying that flag in this country is just fooling themselves.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well they sure can't claim it is a "Southern Heritage" icon if it was hanging
in the Hudson Valley Gun Club. As far as I know New York was part of the Union.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It was indeed a Union region, despite the local opposition to Lincoln and war in general
Edited on Tue Oct-30-07 03:51 PM by bigtree

"We came when the country first called, and now, when the country calls again, we should like to see some of those who advised and entreated us to come at the start, come out here themselves. . . . It sounds very well to tell people . . . to return with ball riddled flags but let some of the harpies themselves come out and get some of their own blood washed in the green grass and by their example lead those whom they are urging on to follow.-- W. H. Ingersall, 9th New York ("Hawkins' Fire Zouaves")


It has become a commonplace of New York State history during the time of the American Civil War to suggest, as Edmund Wilson does in his introduction to The Civil War Stories of Harold Frederic, that the state, "played an apparently paradoxical role of supplying more soldiers for its population than any other state of the Union and at the same time putting up perhaps the strongest opposition to the Republican administration . . ."

Despite these mixed reactions to the war and Lincoln's administration, young men up and down the Hudson River Valley answered Lincoln's call to arms . . . Regiments from the Hudson River Valley participated in most of the major campaigns of the war, both in the Eastern and Western Theatres, including Fredericksburg, Chancellorseville, Gettysburg, the Wilderness, Appomattox, the battles for Atlanta, Sherman's March to the Sea, and Bentonville, among many others. The Hudson Valley indeed paid a high price in its effort to help, initially, preserve the Union, and then, by default, to free the slaves.

http://www.hudsonrivervalley.org/themes/CivilWar/index.php
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. "hanging...right under the old pickup truck"?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. over
Edited on Tue Oct-30-07 03:57 PM by bigtree
just like a noose
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Maybe I'm reading it wrong...
but hanging UNDER the pickup truck? So, you would have to get on your hands and knees to see whatever it is that's hanging underneath there.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. over, over
Edited on Tue Oct-30-07 03:56 PM by bigtree
changed it :spank: :banghead:
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. It's been a long day, friend.
And it's damn near Miller Time in my neck of the woods.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. make it a Bass
and I'll join you
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. What the hell is the confederate flag hanging up in upstate New York for?
Edited on Tue Oct-30-07 06:26 PM by cat_girl25
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Ask Pastor Wickham
His comments were unbelievable.
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Aristus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-30-07 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. I have had Confederate flag types insist it was because they wanted people to know
"that I'm kind of a rebel, y'know?"

I usually ask them: "What's wrong with the American flag? At least that was a successful rebellion."
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mvccd1000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
17. It's upside down!
Sorry, sometimes I have a warped sense of humor.

I used to not see any problem with it, because it doesn't symbolize anything racist to ME, but I've learned that that is not the case for everyone.

The first place I ever saw it was on the General Lee on The Dukes of Hazzard. Since it's kinda difficult to picture the Dukes as racist, I probably attributed the same characteristics to everything they used on the show.

Too bad its whole history could not be so harmless.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
18. A swastika would have fit well next to that RAG!
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
20. I have no problem with Confederate flags
Cheney is a vile, despicable piece of offal. But no because someone hung a Confederate flag in a garage.
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