***Dem debate wrap-up thread****

[pinto]

[Bluebear]

1. MSNBC Winners: Edwards, Obama. Loser: Clinton. I am SHOCKED!

Clinton "wouldn't give a straight answer"

[Colobo]

3. YEAH!

[jenmito]

30. He's BACK, baby!

:toast:

[AtomicKitten]

120. Oh yeah!!

[pinto]

12. I think Edwards, Biden and Clinton had the most concrete answers overall,

Clinton ducked a question, but had clear proposals for discussion, otherwise. As did Edwards and Biden.

[Bluebear]

16. "Edwards gave sharpest answers by far"

I am stunned that the talking heads are breaking from their coronation of Clinton.

[jfkjunior2004]

20. What

has been said about Biden?

[goodgd_yall]

47. This is good

It might be a closer race than is predicted (among the Dems).

[Ninga]

60. This was very good for Edwards, 2 solid debate performances in a row. He helped himself.

[helderheid]

2. K&R

[Bluebear]

5. "Clinton gave double-talk"

[pinto]

4. Kick.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. Losers

Fat Timmah Potatohead and Robonewz .... a pair of asswipes.

[sandnsea]

7. Edwards, Obama and Biden

They all did great.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

59. Sounds about right.....n/m

[Spiffarino]

127. My "Winner's" list, for what it's worth

1. "Edwards' best performance so far." So says the MSNBC talking head, and for once I agree. He hit HRC pretty hard and, while few blows landed, they rattled her a little bit. His best points were made about issues of class. He's the only leading candidate who is running on a populist platform and it's a potential winner if presented properly. I just wish he would come out unequivocally in favor of universal health care.

2. Hillary was cool at first, but got off her game as the night went on. It's hard to be the front-runner because your a natural target, but if HRC is going to be the nominee then this debate should be a learning experience. She won't make the same mistakes next time and, in fact, that she didn't get destroyed in tonight's dogpile may have actually helped her.

3. Obama was good in spots, but fumbled his words a few times and didn't always have a ready answer. The fact is, he didn't hurt himself and he should come out OK.

4. Biden was good as usual. He was smart and quick on his feet. I didn't see any serious mistakes and it may even move him up a point or two.

5. Bill Richardson played scold as he took on the job of defending Hillary from all the meanies. Tonight's performance made it clear he's angling for VP or a top Cabinet post, and I have to admit "Secretary of State Richardson" has a nice ring to it.

6. Dodd is a good Senator and a terrible speaker. He talks so fast you can't always understand what he's saying, which is a shame. He's sharp and he's progressive on most issues and I love his policy positions and his willingness to take on Bush. None of that will help him, though, because nobody's listening.

7. Kucinich was his usual - unusual - self, full of facts and fire. Sadly, that stupid, pointless UFO thing sucked out all the air from his informed rants. It will haunt him.

And finally 1,000,000,000th place goes to Tim Russert for his extreme douchebaggery, with Tweety even further behind for his reinforcing the UFO nonsense and acting like it was a serious issue right after he said he was kidding about it! They were, as Jon Stewart might say, an epic catastrofuck.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

8. late Obama move pulled him into tie w/ JE. Biden very good. Clinton too pressing/loud

[Colobo]

Gobama!

[RebelSansCause]

9. i love dennis

why are people treating it like a joke? the UFO that is.

[xiamiam]

23. because they think we are the only beings in the entire universe...nt

[bdamomma]

140. Dennis is so humble, so what if he saw a UFO

did he say that or did he say he believes that life exists on other planets. Cause I believe there is life on other planets.

[Mojambo]

10. Edwards - Excellent. Obama - Above Average

Dodd was quite good at times. Biden was criminally underused.

Richardson just isn't very good at this.

I thought Clinton got beat up a little bit.

[goodgd_yall]

58. I agree with your assessment

Clinton got "caught" tonight, from the start with the Lieberman/Kyl vote to the 2 minute flipflop which the other candidates wouldn't let go by without comments. Good move on their part if they want to capture or at least lessen HRC's lead.

[helderheid]

11. I saw a UFO once - WTF?

[pinto]

18. What a throw away question. (I was going whaa?)

[helderheid]

28. UFO does not = spaceship. Unidentifiable Flying Object. Jeez!

[tekisui]

When I heard that story, I thought oh, no.

I am glad he'll still be around to hold the others to a higher standard, but that won't win a pres. election.

[oldgrowth]

13. Time clock !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BlueStater]

26. Geez

Hillary got more time than Kucinich, Richardson, and Biden COMBINED.

Disgraceful.

[bdamomma]

141. sickening, again the media dictating to American citizens who

to vote for.

[Catherine Vincent]

29. Williams and Russert has the #3 spot.

LOL!

[goodgd_yall]

38. That ain't right

[Blackhatjack]

14. Edwards by far was the sharpest attacker of Clinton.... Howard Fineman

[Neshanic]

15. Tweeties so excited I think he's going to lay an egg.

[waiting for hope]

I'm giggling....

Thanks!

[Catherine Vincent]

32. LOL!

[BeyondGeography]

17. The headline: Hillary completely blew it at the end

A total meltdown on the drivers license issue, reinforcing the too-clever-by-half arguments made all night by Edwards and Obama.

[Neshanic]

25. Absolutely positively correct.

[Colobo]

31. Edwards/Obama or Obama/Edwards NOW!

[Sparkly]

42. I just didn't see that.

I thought her answer was clear.

[hedgehog]

Which one?

[Sparkly]

66. The one referenced above re: driver's licenses. nt

[hedgehog]

102. I meant, which of her clear answers on licenses for illegal immigrants?

She gave several options.

[Blackhatjack]

19. Obama made a good point about HRC's failure to release WH records...

[jenmito]

21. I can't believe it! for ONCE, Hillary was not declared the winner, and in fact,

was called out on her double speak!

[cuke]

106. Kind of blows DU's whole media conspiracy paranoia out of the water, huh?

[desi]

121. It sure does...

Russert came after her from the first question. I was watching the time and it was all about Hillary for the first 20 minutes. It was not till then that Kucinich and Richardson were even included. I was expecting Kucinich to blow a gasket.

[billyoc]

22. Tweety is definitely extra-foamy.

He must have gotten permission to speak ill of Hillary.

[sjdnb]

24. All but Biden a bunch of political hacks

saying ANYTHING to achieve their political ambitions.

But, we all know, this is a beauty/money contest where ability, honor, and experience really don't matter ... it is, after all, just the Presidency we're talking about.

[Think82]

99. AGREEED! If YOU WATCHTHEDEBATES IT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE! Biden 08

[GCP]

139. Seconded - he was criminally under-used

But he's getting my vote

[Sparkly]

27. I don't think they scored anything new against Clinton.

The "not a straight answer" thing is silly! A nuanced answer is not necessarily an evasive one. I understood exactly what she was saying, and I'm sure the others on stage did, too.

I thought Biden did very well! I don't know why he isn't doing better in the polls. :shrug:

And I thought Obama was good.

I still wish they'd been pushed to explain WHY they disagree with Kucinich's healthcare proposals.

Finally, I thought Timmy made an ass of himself, as usual.

[BootinUp]

35. Only 1 on stage

disagreed with her.

on the license question.

[More Than A Feeling]

36. Distinction without a difference. Clinton screwed up, and reinforced the negative narrative

against her.

[Sparkly]

39. How did she screw up? nt

[More Than A Feeling]

43. By juggling the whole "it makes sense/I endorse it" distinction without a difference.

It looked, and sounded like, and was double talk, and that's the negative narrative against her.

[Sparkly]

52. She didn't say "I endorse it."

She said immigration reform is needed at the federal level. And since BushCo hasn't done anything, it's left states to deal as best they can with the issues involved as a result. So she doesn't think Spitzer's idea is the best way to manage it, but she can understand why he'd put that forward in the absence of any progress in Washington.

[cuke]

61. She was unclear.

She should have said that at the federal level she wants comprehensive reform, but I support Gov Spitzer because he has to do something to deal with *'s failure and we want these people to come out of the shadows

[Sparkly]

64. That is what she said.

I heard and understood that. :shrug:

[cuke]

68. Yes, but she said it unclearly

and gave a bad impression

[Sparkly]

73. I don't understand why anybody found it "unclear."

When Edwards and then Obama tried to make it seem so, I was disappointed. Real disagreement is one thing, but pretending not to understand her answer, claiming it's unclear or double-speak, is disingenuous.

[sjdnb]

50. Uhhhh, by so OBVIOUSLY putting her political ambitions

above us, our country, ethics, honesty, integrity, the world, etc. etc.

I'd LOVE to vote for a female I believed in, but I cannot, in good conscience, vote for someone like her who is so willing to change her principles anyway the political winds blow.

[Sparkly]

55. Love her or hate her, I think she's been consistent.

:shrug:

[sjdnb]

67. Yes, consistently moderating her opinion

based upon what the polls suggest she should believe - if she wants to achieve her political ambitions.

[Sparkly]

75. Okay.

I guess I'm not as familiar with her past stances as you are. :shrug: I haven't heard her, or the other Democratic candidates, contradict themselves.

[sjdnb]

77. Give it up, already

Americans do not elect the most qualified, ethical, or intelligent ... and probably won't for decades to come.

It's a beauty/money pageant and, for most, an incredible waste of time/resources.

[gorekerrydreamticket]

72. Didn't do well on the archives, releasing her WH papers question. Then Obama jammed her on it.

Just my opinion...

[Sparkly]

80. Yes, I agree that was odd.

I didn't understand what President Clinton had sealed, if anything, and why. It was left very unspecific.

[countmyvote4real]

37. Sen. bankruptcy bill supporter can "hack" with the best of them.

That was a deal breaker for me.

[Think82]

105. might want ot read this first

http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=234426&...

[Catherine Vincent]

40. We Democrats love beating up on our own.

They just gave a good talking point for the republicans. Just like the Kerry flip-flopper answer was started by Dean.

[Colobo]

49. She lost the debate.

[Catherine Vincent]

95. So did Obama.

:)

[hedgehog]

108. A lot of us don't consider criticizing Senator Clinton as beating up

on our own. How about running a Democrat from the Democratic wing of the party for once?

[billyoc]

33. They're ripping Clinton a new

contribution hole.

[jfkjunior2004]

51. I dont

think you can say that.... it might affend the FEMALE clinton supporters...;) lol j/k

[babylonsister]

34. Matthews calls on Richardson on how he distracted the conversation away from

Clinton. I watched him and all he did was blame Hillary in a nicer way. Smoothe!

[jenmito]

41. Yup. But I'm fired up and ready to go again for Obama!!

:hi:

[babylonsister]

44. Not me!

:shrug: :hi:

[Colobo]

46. Obama will be Our Next President!

[Neshanic]

45. Tweety trying to put Richardson in the Lost In Space club now.

[minkyboodle]

48. Tweety and UFOs

Grilling Bill Richardson on it, This fucking media
has jumped the fucking shark that's all there is to
it
:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Neshanic]

53. If there is a God, Tweety has an anal probe waiting for him by aliens.

[babylonsister]

74. ROFL!

:rofl: How fitting that would be!

[eppur_se_muova]

78. Better rabid wolverines than aliens. nt

[minkyboodle]

87. lol

eric cartman sized probe if we are lucky lol

[cuke]

54. Edwards did the best for himself

He didn't sound canned, looked calm and confident, and made lots of good point. Came out looking good all around

Obama - started looking nervous, did better and better as the night went on. Needed to do really well. I don't think he hit his mark.

HRC seemed a touch nervous but did pretty well all night until she flubbed the immigration issue. She was not going to say "I support giving DL's to undocumented workers" but she does support Spitzers's proposal (but does not support it at the federal level where comprehensive reform is needed) and she botched the explanation.

Biden was wonderful. Used every moment well and his "a noun, a verb, and 9/11" was my fave rant of the night

Dodd also did well for himself. He came across as intelligent, thoughful, calm and presidential.

Richardson did better than he has in the past, but he's still missing something

[oldgrowth]

56. Clinton & Obama get more time than all others put together

[hedgehog]

69. Is this the first debate where a candidate actually got more face time than

the network people?

[Blackhatjack]

57. Edwards came out guns blazing! Wonder if Tweety Will Acknowledge How Well He Did?

[MiniMe]

62. Did anybody notice that they were calling Bush and Cheney

Bush and Cheney, and not President Bush and Vice President Cheney? :rofl:

Total lack of respect, I loved it!

[goodgd_yall]

70. I didn't notice, but that's great!!

[Sparkly]

Yes, and I really liked Biden talking about Giuliani, and Obama about Romney.

That was great. :D

[Evergreen Emerald]

63. The media attempted to take Clinton down tonight.

Wow. Guns fully loaded they attacked relentlessly.

[Tactical Progressive]

65. To the Hillary-haters on the left, that's called supporting Hillary

[cuke]

71. Yep, Timmy was obviously obsessed

She handled all of it well except for the immigration question

[Evergreen Emerald]

83. And now Tweety--the whole "wrap up" is dedicated to Clinton

This was a planned attack by the media.

It made me angry that they are attempting to play us--and so many of us are willing to be played.

We should be up in arms at the level of constant attack against her. I will venture to guess that 75% of the questions were about Clinton.

And so far 100% of the "wrap up"

[Cameron27]

84. I thought she did well, not her best debate,

but she survived the group attack. I just donated to Biden though, I really liked what he had to say.

[Sparkly]

89. I liked what he said, too!

But of course!! When are we gonna disagree on something?!? :rofl:

[Cameron27]

91. Oh lord, it's getting spooky ROFL

[The River]

79. Why Not?

She proclaims herself the presumptive nominee and the
MSM are the ones who have been pushing her inevitability.
Now they question the meme? How dare they!

[Evergreen Emerald]

90. where have you been? She has not proclaimed herself

the nominee--the media did.

[hedgehog]

109. When she says "in my administration" over and over?

[Evergreen Emerald]

138. every candidate says that!

That is politics!

[babylonsister]

82. Baloney. She was allowed lots more time to talk. If anything, her fellow Dems,

and that'd be two of them, went after her. It's called competition.

The media was enabling. What is the point of these debates? To get face time and plead your case. She got all of that in spades.

[Evergreen Emerald]

88. no...did you not hear the questions? What other candidate was the subject

of the questions? I will venture to guess that over a majority of the questions were about Clinton, allowing the other candidates to attack her constantly.

Amazing to watch the media with the coordinated attack.

[babylonsister]

104. That is the risk the front runner takes. Sorry, and I've had this conversation,

and read about it. She gets so much press initially, now she has to back it up. I'm glad she's getting called on it. I welcome the differences and still don't know for myself, but I'm not impressed.

[cuke]

97. The media whores did what they always did. No victims here

Hillary Clinton is not Howard Dean.

We went into this debate with Edwards and Obama promising to attack Clinton. No one should be surprised that timmy and chrissie got a hard on. I'm sure Hillary wasn't.

The fact is they went after her time and time again and she held them back. On one question, she flubbed it. I'm proud of her performance but I'm sure those who think she abandoned her cat will now predict her imminent demise, while some of her supporters will pretend it didn't happen

The truth is, she did fairly well, but that one question left some questions open, and I'm sure reporters will be asking her about it in the coming days. How she responds to it will help determine it's impact, if any.

[desi]

123. Russert got the ball rolling from the very first "question"

but she was well aware that he was going to come after her again tonight. His animosity towards her does not speak well of him. He has nothing to "get her" with so he brings in Bill and Spitzer comments.

[vssmith]

131. I am not a Hillary supporter but I do support your comments on Russert

[More Than A Feeling]

76. Chris Matthews is a dumbass.

Drivers licenses for illegal immigrants is NOT going to be the major issue of the campaign.

[pinto]

81. I agree. It's not a big deal, imo, as much as some want to push it.

[hedgehog]

110. It's not the question that;'s the issue but the fact that Senator Clinton couldn't or wouldn't

give a straight answer. She supports it, but doesn't agree with it, or was it she agreees but doesn't support it?

[minkyboodle]

85. where is Keith?

Has anyone noticed that the last 2 debates on MSNBC have been
a Timmy, Tweety and Howard fest with no Olbermann? I wonder
if someone wasn't happy with his performance 3 debates ago which
tended to cut down on the "ol boys club" aspect to the coverage.
Maybe Keith just doesn't want to sully himself probably a wise
move this post debate coverage is pathetic, Tweety leading the
moronic cheers.

[desi]

116. Tweety is just doing a repeat of Gore 2000

and Kerry 2004. It resembles a Swiftboating of sorts. He hated Gore but I believe he hates Hillary even more.

[Blackhatjack]

86. Hillary more than had her chance to defend herself given the extra time she spoke...

It seemed like she was speaking twice as much as any other candidate.

A political strategist once said "give me the microphone and you can ask any questions you want."

[desi]

112. I wonder if anybody noticed that right from the get-go

the questions all had to do with Hillary. It was not till after 20 minutes that either Kucinich or Richardson were even asked a question. And it was surely Bash Hillary night. If nobody can see the animosity towards her from Tim Russert they were not watching. But in spite of that she handled herself quite well.

[Odin2005]

92. WTF was with the UFO nonsense?

:crazy:

[Emit]

103. Yeah, can someone elaborate for those of us who didn't get to watch?

Thanks in advance for the details.

[K8-EEE]

93. Didn't see it but thrilled that Edwards did so well!

Luv him!

[mvd]

94. Hi, pinto

:hi:

I had fun watching the debate. Much better than the last one.

[Blackhatjack]

96. Joe Trippi pointing out HRC inconsistency that Edwards called her on...

[BlueStater]

98. Some protestor just got yanked off the screen n/t

[desi]

124. Hope he does better for Edwards...

than he did for Dean. We will soon find out if the "Lazio effect" helped Edwards.

[superkia]

100. Considering Biden had allot less time or questions, he did have...

great impact. Its too bad that Clinton was once again given the most time and Obama and Edwards were 2nd and 3rd in time. I wish we could have debates where there were no biases in time and actually let all candidates be in the same debate. Edwards and Obama looked to win this debate though and if I called a loser, it was definitely Clinton. Even though Clinton had more time, her ways were pointed out a little more this time around.

[Think82]

107. Biden wins every debate, if you've watched them all, you'd see it. IT's no contest

[superkia]

115. Ive watched them all and he is very precise and direct but...

I wouldn't say he won them all. Tonight for instance, I would loved to have heard another candidate touch on the impeachment issue since it was mentioned a few times by Dennis Kucinich, we need a candidate that will not only be precise and straightforward but one who isn't afraid to do and say the right things. Not enough of them are standing up for the attack on our constitution, non profit health care or impeachment. why? Again Biden is great at how he handles the debates and the limited time he has but I want someone that is willing to take that national stage and speak on some of those very important issues to Americans.

[Think82]

122. Biden answers the questions asked of him. He doesn't go to talking points because he doesn't have to

[superkia]

126. He could comment after he answers his questions though.

I don't think anyone but Kucinich has mentioned impeachment at all, to me thats not leadership. Biden could very easily raised his hand like they were all doing when they wanted to comment on something someone else said. Not one of them wanted to touch impeachment while they had a national stage and I believe its because they don't want to go there at all. They asked Biden very few questions so if he is serious about running he should probably jump in a little more and give some responses to the others, impeachment would have been a great topic to jump in on, in my eyes.

We can agree to disagree, I would have to say that Edwards won the debate tonight.

[oldgrowth]

101. Whats with all the Ron Paul signs are young people not doing

There home work???????????????

[itsrobert]

111. "their"

n/t

[Spiffarino]

132. They don't like Social Security

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: ...or Medicare, National Parks, public schools, food assistance, highways, the Post Office, species preservation, food inspectors, drug safety, clean air, clean water, dams, levees, wildlife and fishery management, :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[MadBadger]

113. Chuck Todd on MSNBC just said that Hillary got worse and worse over the course of the night.

[Colobo]

118. Even Hillary cheerleader Chuck Todd has to admit it.

[Spiffarino]

133. And I have to agree with him

I think he's generally full of it, but he got that one right. You could see her getting more and more edgy. Not her best night.

[babylonsister]

114. Tweety is back-the end-of pumping up Hillary. What do you know?

Chuck Todd said Edwards made points tonight. I finally agree with him.

[Blackhatjack]

117. MSNBC pundit just said 'Edwards Was Just Like A Sledgehammer..."

[Colobo]

119. What are they saying about Obama now?

[MadBadger]

136. Nothing? At least on MSNBC they are saying nothing (KO is on)

but everywhere I've heard, Edwards and Obama won, though Obama was a little more reserved, and Hillary stumbled.

[Neecy]

125. I watched this with a very open mind...

I was supporting Obama, but not after the weekend's debacle.

Dodd impressed me. How many national politicians would call for the decriminalization of marijuana, and talk about the explosion of the American prison population? I liked that. It took guts.

Biden was good and I think he'd be a fine president. Same with Edwards.

[Colobo]

129. Reconsider on Barack.

Think about what a great president he would be.

[Spiffarino]

134. I agree, especially about Dodd.

I like Chris Dodd enough to send his campaign money. He won't win, but he needs to stay on the campaign trail and bring up issues like the ones you mention and more. He's one of the few Senators who has the guts to take on Bush and his trashing of the Constitution.

That said, I wish he'd get a speech coach. He's as bad a speaker as he is a good Democrat.

[ellisonz]

128. Mike Gravel won.

[deacon]

130. Edwards won.

[Digit]

135. Yep, Edwards all the way....good job JE!

[Blackhatjack]

137. Hillary's Strategists Will Go Over The Tape of This Debate With A Fine Tooth Comb

It was her poorest performance, there is lots of rehabilitation that she will need to do and quickly.

Tonight she showed her vulnerability --and you can bet the other candidates are well aware of her weaknesses.

It should be interesting from here on in.

Expect Edwards to continue to ratchet up the criticism of Hillary that she has successfully diverted up to now.