My First Debate or She Was Awful.

[cali]

I don't have TV so a lot of what you folks talk about is something I have no experience with. Tonight I went over to friends and watched the debate. I found it shocking. Clinton was so bad and so manufactured, my jaw dropped. She was disingenuous about Iraq and Iran. Perhaps it's my bias, but I detected a "how dare you challenge me" attitude that I thought was close to imperial. And Richardson's fawning defense of her was, well, hard to take.

I thought Edwards did a really good job. He had energy and passion, and he used them. He was impressive and came across as straight forward.

Dennis also did a good job, and I didn't think he came off as fringe or loony or anything of the sort. In fact, I thought he defused the UFO shit neatly.

Obama, I thought, was weak. Really, that's about all I saw regarding his performance.

Dodd and Biden both conducted themselves well, but I don't see that either helped themselves in any significant way.

But I keep coming back to how bad Clinton was. She came off as shifty and petulant and entititled.

I've been trying to get used to the idea of Clinton as nominee. Her performance last night blew that out of the water.

I don't know that I feel any need to watch anymore debates. Last night said it all for me.

[OKNancy]

1. I could be your bias. I didn't watch

I fell asleep on the couch! I asked my husband this morning what he thought.
He doesn't read DU and although a staunch Democrat, he hasn't expressed a deep loyalty to any candidate. He said: Hillary did fine. Almost every question seemed to be geared toward her or about her her. The other guys just seemed like they were blathering. Biden had the best lines.

[cali]

2. Biden always has good lines. He's got the gift of blarney or

something closely related. It could be my bias. I'll never rule that out, but she really didn't impress me positively at all last night.

[OKNancy]

4. I forgot to add

Oh yeah... I forgot to add: My husband also said " Russert is a jackass."

I've been reading around this morning and trying to get a sense of what opinions are.
What I have gathered is...people who don't like her think she was awful and her supporters think she did just fine. LOL - typical. I did notice a few comments on how the whole night seemed to be a "get Hillary" fest. I wonder how that will play with undecided voters and women.

I have a feeling that the debate was seen by political junkies only and the true undecided voter will probably make up their mind based on TV ads and appearances and what their friends say.

If I were a Hillary opponent, I wouldn't start cheering thinking this is some sort of watershed.
I imagine she will still roll through the primaries unscathed.

[Beerboy]

3. fwiw, I don't have TV either, but remember

if you asked everyone you know who their congressional reps and U.S. Senators are, 8 or 9/10 would draw a blank.
This preliminary shit just isn't all that important yet.

[Perry Logan]

5. Hillary was incredible. She spoke like a god, and her words touched my soul.

[cali]

7. heh.

each to their own.

[JMDEM]

22. What do you call Democratic Kool Aid??? nt

[JohnnyBoots]

26. An Organic Soy Koolaide Latte, I guess......n/t

[mmonk]

6. I'm glad you saw the debate.

Clinton had a hard time I think because the questions other candidates posed to her make side stepping and generalized uninforming statements difficult. That's my take anyway. I'm a firm believer in that a candidate has to stand for some things. To me, Clinton and Obama have the most difficulty in that regard.

[journalist3072]

8. Thanks for your boring, disengenuous coomentary

Which sounds just like the commentary of the other anti-Hillary folks here on DU. Nothing new.

[Rockholm]

14. I totally agree with you.

Hillary was just fine. Forceful and intelligent. Obama seemed to fumble the entire evening, looking for openings for one-liners. He is not ready for prime-time. Biden and Dodd in my opinion were the strongest in this debate. I enjoy Biden when he is at his most passionate. Richardson and Kucinich (I don't know nor care how to spell his name correctly and won't cop out by calling him Dennis) were barely engaged by Russert and Williams, with good reason. Sadly, Richardson is over-matched. Kucinich is fine in Congress, standing up for his strong beliefs. Edwards, who I do like, was good but snarkey.
It is rather impressive that Biden, Dodd, Clinton are from the North.

[JMDEM]

23. Same back at you. nt.

[KharmaTrain]

9. You Miss A Lot Just Watching The Tube

I had the chance to see a debate earlier this summer...there's so many other things to see and hear at these things that the teevee doesn't do justice. It's the eye contact the debaters have with the crowd and with themselves...it's the REAL sound of their voices when they speak on an issue (which is passion, which is talking point) and their personal presence...who looks like a President.

These debates are a summer replacement TV show...quick soundbites and gotchas...with lots of campaign slogans and little of real substance. It's all about "winning" and "losing"...who played the game well and who didn't. Little focus is placed on the complex issues that lie beneath what these candidates stand for as opposed to the quick zinger or the confrontation.

Imagine this as having to do a job interview...and your auditioning with all the other applicants at the same time. You have 90 minutes to get a word in edgewise and try to "win" the job with the best "gotcha". That's surely not a way you'd like to get a job or the type of company to work for, but this is the game the corporate media has set up...and keep that in mind.

[sendero]

11. Imagine ...

..... having to sit in front of a camera and play both sides of the fence over and over and over again. Imagine having to spin your numerous mistakes and try to act like they were correct over and over and over again.

I don't have to imagine, I can just watch HRC.

[KharmaTrain]

16. And All The Other Candidates...

I hear many spins and twists by candidates on their stances on many issues. That's called "politics". I have been around too many campaigns to expect any different. So Timmeh Russert and his game show gotcha questions should be how you determine the merits of a candidate? That's pretty sad.

[sendero]

17. What's sad...

.. is that you are ready to vote for someone who just gave Bush another blank check to invade another country we have no business messing with.

That's beyond sad, it's STUPID.

Politics is one thing but claiming that all of the Dem candidates try to play the triangulation game all the time is a lie and you should know that.

[KharmaTrain]

20. They All Play Games

Each candidate has their "gimmick" that gets them attention, money and, possibly, votes. Just look across the aisle if you want to see triangulation and pandering. The only platform these goons have to offer for the future is more war and economic warefare. I'm looking ahead, not behind. I can find fault with every candidate, but that's not what I'm looking for...I want to hear their positions on the future and how they will achieve it...or if they can.

The real sad is the mess of a country we have...and whomever takes over on 1-20-09 is going to have to spend a majority of their term just cleaning up the corruption and abuses of the past 7 years. It's going to be a person who can put this country back on an even keel...restore destroyed foreign relations, address a growing economic stranglehold on the middle class, fix a health care system that's literally killing people and find a way out of a war that won't end up with our troops having to retreat. Words sound great on the stump...i'm not expecting perfection...far from it, I just want to know exactly what I'm getting...and that is a personal choice. There are gonna be a lot of tough choices to be made...I want someone who can bring change to start this country back from the abyss. Idealism is great...but it's not what's needed to clean up the messes the next president will face.

[G_j]

10. entitled, close to imperial..

good descriptions

[LWolf]

12. Well this time, I agree with most of that.

The only point I'd disagree with is Biden. I think he turned in a strong performance that will help him move forward.

[Vinca]

13. I saw bits and pieces and pretty much agree with cali.

Hillary sometimes sounds shrill - almost shrewish, as if she's trying too hard to outmacho the male candidates. That's not hard to do from all appearances. Edwards holds his own, but Obama - who I used to support - seems Casper Milquetoastish. He doesn't inspire confidence at all. Very disappointing, especially given how inspiring he can be when he's "on." Maybe he's being overhandled. I almost don't care who of the "top tier" comes out ahead. I'm not jumping up and down over any of them. Kucinich is still getting my NH primary vote.

[HamdenRice]

15. "how dare you challenge me "

You hit the nail on the head, not only with Clinton herself, but with her supporters.

I find one of the main differences between Clinton and all the other candidates, is that the other candidates are running on various issues.

Clinton seems to be running primarily on her inevitability, and her supporters use the idea of party loyalty and discipline alone to crack the rank and file into line.

Most of the pro-Hillary threads on DU are not about what she stands for but: "you're not a good Democrat if you don't support the front runner."

She is running an entirely authoritarian campaign and that's why I won't vote for her even if she is the nominee. We've already had 8 years of authoritarianism and we don't need any more. The Clintons learned all the wrong lessons during their time in office, and it seems that they don't intend their second act to be symbolized the such innovations as having "question and answer time" in the Congress as the British PM has in Parliament. Whatever they do this time is going to be rammed down our throats "for our own good" as the Clintons see it.

[MyNameGoesHere]

18. Having watched debates for a long time

this was nothing more than a "gotcha" moment like all the other debates. There has not been real debates in this country for 30 or more years. It is just a farce and really nothing more than a giant talking point. Yawn to all of them really.

[karynnj]

19. In fairness, this was Hillary's worst debate

I think it showed more of her unlikable side than any previous debate.

First, a comment on demeanor - What I noticed, during a period when the sound was muted, because I took a phone call was the difference in her facial expression when she was talking and when she was waiting to answer. She had a near permanent scowl when silent, then a too bright smile when she was speaking - the shift was disconcerting. This is important, because as we found in 2000, the media will make something of it. Here it was less obvious as there were so many candidates. (In 2004, I would have loved to see what Kerry was writing as he took "notes" with a straight face, while Bush spoke and acted bizarre in the first debate.)

Second, a comment on the level of the debate - Possibly because the questions were designed to pit Democrat against Democrat, this was the nastiest primary debate I ever saw. I do not like Hillary and Dean was my second favorite by the "pincushion" debate, but my impression was that this was a fundamentally meaner debate. The underlying message - especially from Edwards - is that Hillary Clinton is not fit to be President, because she is corrupt, not trustworthy, doesn't tell the truth, and is helping Bush get us into war with Iraq. Though it was true that Dean was attacked by everyone - no one was questioning his character as a person. It scares me that the Democrats have so much more money in the primary. On the surface that is good - but it looks like they will be using it attacking each other. (HRC was pretty bad with her attacks on Obama in the last several debates.)

I think only Biden and Dodd came out looking like grownups concerned with world issues here.

[GCP]

21. I've come over to Biden after last night

From the very first, Clinton seemed not to be talking to the democratic base, but to swing voters in the general election. IOW she seemed to be assuming that she already had the nomination and this debate was just something to get through. She was rehearsing her general election strategy, meanwhile the people who would be actually voting in the primaries were being treated like idiots. The way she tried to justify signing the Lieberman-Kyl amendment was typical of the way she's shucked and jived over the Iraq War vote, troops coming home, you name it, she's got a position for it - depending on the audience.
Just my 2 cents - flame away HRC supporters. :hide:

[Atman]

24. She is totally plastic, totally fake. She'll say or do anything to get a vote.

Even if it means changing her position three times in the same sentence. Welcome to the club. Hillary is horrible. But the corporate media wants her, so America will be forced to take her.

.

[JMDEM]

25. Clinton's only strong point is that she didn't "lose it"

She kept her cool despite a pretty heavy assault from all sides.

Now, she flat-out lied on several occasions, and when she wasn't lying she never directly answered questions posed to her. I don't know if that's important to people or not... or if they just want a "leader" who can flat out lie and never answer questions directly, but acts tough while doing it.

I just about fell out of my chair when she said she has been standing up AGAINST Bush at every opportunity, then DID fall out of my chair when she said she would do whatever it took to stop Bush from attacking Iran. Liar liar liar liar!!!!!!!!!

I watched the debate on my computer. My monitor is damned lucky to still be intact tonight.

Oh yes -- I've never been a Kucinich fan. Gore's my man, followed by Edwards. But in my opinion, Kucinich did the best of all candidates tonight. (The DU straw poll shows I'm not alone in this assessment.) I'm going to re-evaluate my position.

[Virginia Dare]

27. I didn't watch it, mostly because..

the whole thing was being set up ahead of time as an attempt to tear Hillary off her perch, and I can't TOLERATE Tim Russert. I'm glad Edwards did well though. I hope it bumps him up in the polls.