Our Beautiful Country has lost it's way - if ever, there were a time to make a stand, it's NOW!

[ShortnFiery]

I'm almost brought to tears this morning as I listen to Michael Savage fans, et. al., who are clearly cheerleading for waterboarding as a fair interrogation technique. Then, I reflect back to my family's proud history of honorable service in the U.S. Army and "let go" a long sad sigh of relief that my beloved father, a combat engineer during WWII died last year so he does not have to know how, as a country, America has lost it's compassionate soul as the bright and shinning beacon for fairness and democracy.

Listening to all these *fearful* right wing Americans touting the fact that we should torture all the evildoers, I wonder HOW, as an country, we have fallen so far from our once SOUND moral compasses?

More than anything in this world my dad was HONORED and PROUD of how the German Soldiers would *beg* the Americans to take them prisoner before the Russians moved through Europe. Why? Because albeit it was overblown to some extent, AMERICA and AMERICANS were genuinely considered "the good guys" who would treat their prisoners in a humane manner.

Now, I can only conclude that through the effects of FEAR-mongering and LEARNED-helplessness, that our democratic Senators would dare EVEN CONSIDER that Bush's nominee be confirmed without flatly stating that "Waterboarding is torture. We are Americans and we DO NOT TORTURE." :wtf: is up with Mukasey stating that he's NOT SURE if water-boarding is torture?!?

DISGUSTED is the only word that I can find to describe my feelings regarding the gutless bordering on TREASONOUS complicity of far too many within our Senate.

Perhaps no one agrees with me? Perhaps some do? However, my family and ancestors (including myself) did NOT honorably serve in the US Army to condone even A HINT of *torture* for those who we hold as even "the worst of the worst* - Enemy Combatants and/or Prisoners of War.

My Dear God? :cry: We are Americans, and we, as a Country, have NOT EVER considered torture even remotely humanitarian. If we don't target those actively moving us toward realization of a "police state" mentality AS WELL AS those who are complicit or enabling, we will soon live in a totalitarian society where even our police forces will be given the "OK" to torture. :grr: :thumbsdown:

My humble suggestion: That those who want America to reclaim it's "moral high ground" as a TRUE Democratic Beacon on the hill - target all Senators, both Democratic and Republican who vote for Mukasey's confirmation to be UNSEATED in their next Democratic Primary.

[DCKit]

1. Great Rant!!! K&R

[ShortnFiery]

4. Thank you. I'm honestly in shock. Granted that as a young woman, I lived a sheltered life

but this is Not My Country. I hope and pray that sooner rather than later, we can elect and enjoy Congressional Representatives who hold up their OATH to Our Constitution.

If Mukasey is confirmed, the flood gates of "all's fair" is opened.

This will be "The End of The Innocence"
... by Don Henley (written 20 years too early)

Remember when the days were long
And rolled beneath a deep blue sky
Didnt have a care in the world
With mommy and daddy standing by
When happily ever after fails
And weve been poisoned by these fairy tales
The lawyers dwell on small details
Since daddy had to fly
But I know a place where we can go
Thats still untouched by man
Well sit and watch the clouds roll by
And the tall grass wave in the wind
You can lay your head back on the ground
And let your hair fall all around me
Offer up your best defense
But this is the end
This is the end of the innocence
O beautiful, for spacious skies
But now those skies are threatening
Theyre beating plowshares into swords
For this tired old man that we elected king
Armchair warriors often fail
And weve been poisoned by these fairy tales
The lawyers clean up all details
Since daddy had to lie
But I know a place where we can go
And was away this sin
Well sit and watch the clouds roll by
And the tall grass wave in the wind
Just lay your head back on the ground
And let your hair spill all around me
Offer up your best defense
But this is the end
This is the end of the innocence
Who knows how long this will last
Now weve come so far, so fast
But, somewhere back there in the dust
That same small town in each of us
I need to remember this
So baby give me just one kiss
And let me take a long last look
Before we say good bye
Just lay your head back on the ground
And let your hair fall all around me
Offer up your best defense
But this is the end
This is the end of the innocence

[ixion]

2. How did we get here? Why, the Law of Least Effort, of course

This is the thing that really aggravates me. This has happened time and time and time again throughout history, and yet the dominant nation-state continually falls into disarray in this way. It's very well documented, and a safe bet that it will happen again, I'm sad to say.

The fact that we're even debating torture :wtf: is ludicrous to me. The fact that people think bombing Iran just 'cause we feel like it is beyond ludicrous, but so was the illegal invasion(s) of Iraq and Afghanistan, IMO.

The fact that people put up with ever-changing, always dehumanizing "security" measures is ludicrous to me. I believe people have collectively lost their minds. I believe we have, collectively, forgotten the meaning of the words "with Liberty and Justice for all".

I'm sorry, but I see NO liberty and not even a HINT of justice being offered up these days. I see only intolerance, violence, surveillance and outright loathing of the We the People.

Everyday I weep for what we have become. :cry:

[mmonk]

3. Your feelings are my feelings.

My father fought in Europe against Nazi Germany. As Germany lost, he was also part of the army of occupation. He saw horrible things that happen when a country loses its way. He passed before this abomination had occurred in his country. I'm glad in a way he hasn't been witness to this.

[ShortnFiery]

5. Thank you.

I must take my daughter to school now and run some chores.

I'm in tears but I will buck-up for "God hates a quitter." ;)

[mmonk]

8. Have a great day.

We must never quit. We must have purpose.:thumbsup:

[bdamomma]

19. My father too, I am he is not here also to see what his country has become.

[Beerboy]

6. Newb. Our country has always been on it's way.

The U.S. is just a geographical location, not some exalted idea. You seem reasonably intelligent. The U.S. has from before it's inception, all through-out it's history, into the present, and will in the future continue to torture/murder anyone who gets in the way.
It's the sad and sick history of humankind. Do you think our government wouldn't do or fund whatever they deem necessary? I'm sure you're familiar w/ the Manhattan Project...
edited to add, sorry I called you newb. I momentarily forgot during my rant that I'm the newb here!:blush:

[mmonk]

7. But this is a little different.

Everything is being systematically dismanteled with no return or pendulum swing. That's because the gears around the rule of law have been forceably worn down. Remember, the WW II generation gave us the foundation of international law concepts since 1945 even though we occasionally head off course. This time, that divergent course is becoming permanent.

[Beerboy]

14. You can go back much further to find binding int'l treaties;

After WW 1, the U.S. signed onto many international naval treaties meant to curb an ever burgeoning naval arms-race. The U.S. also signed onto the Kellogg-Briand Pact of 1928, outlawing all future use of chemical weapons after the horrors of the Great War.
The many international conventions attended and treaties signed are just so much window-dressing. The only treaty Washington D.C. signed that they actually honored was the post-WW 1 naval treaty of 1922, where the tonnage of warships among various classes was strictly proscribed.
It was re-negotiated in 1935, due to changing diplomatic perceptions...

[mmonk]

15. We've witnessed possibly the end of the foundations

of our constitution such as habeas corpus. Incarceration without due process and the application of torture as policy for the first time as well as what appears to be the end of checks and balances for awhile and the policalization of the dept of justice and the rise of "status crimes". Sure, we've had times of bad history before but this is more total and complete.

[Beerboy]

17. We're witnessing a new interpretation of habeus corpus...

Remember how President Lincoln famously suspended habeas corpus during the opening months of the Civil War ( and for my friends in the South, The War of Northern Aggression) :P
In President Franklin Roosevelt's 2nd term, he wasn't getting his way on the New Deal through the SCOTUS. The Court found the New Deal and it's attendant bureaucracies and taxation less-than-Constitutional, and FDR threatened to use a 'Pack the Court' procedure to install additional rubber-stamp temporary FDR appointees to the Supreme Court,
Thank god Bush* can't read.
It's not for nothing that the Constitution is a living/breathing document the Supreme Court has the authority to change/"interpret" to their liking?

[cali]

9. The U.S. was NEVER some exalted "City on a hill"

It's always been deeply flawed and we have a history of doing terrible things- including to our OWN citizens. The Tuskegee experiments come to mind. And we certainly have tortured in the past. Learn some history. Take a look at what the U.S. did in South America from the 1950s through the 1970s.

And all your caps won't change the fact that you're looking at the past through rose colored glasses.

I hope that all of the Senators on the JC will reject Mukasey, but you're premature on calling them traitors- not that that's stopped you before.

Your OP is a study in inaccuracy and hysteria.

[mmonk]

10. The trendline was in the right direction

since 1945 with setbacks along the way. We're in the middle of a reversal. We can't just say well in the past, we've been bad. The rule of law and balance of power that can when applied, can protect us, is under a full scale assault.

[cali]

13. I don't think it's that simple

I'm not even sure you can say the trendline since the forties has been in the right direction. this isn't the first time we've been headed in the wrong direction since then- though I do think this is a particularly sharp departure.

[mmonk]

16. Maybe if I put it this way, you will understand my angle.

Ignoring our constitutional foundations is different than dismantling our constitutional foundations. The latter is far worse. We are destroying hope and damning our children's future. Yes indeed, a sharp departure.

[DCKit]

11. Oh, Cali. Hysteria?

Just because we may have done some of these same things in the past doesn't mean they were legal even then. They surely aren't NOW. You can't slight anyone for wanting the US to act as it should and says it would.

As for the US involvement in south and central America, I have many friends from Nicaragua, Honduras and, especially, El Salvador who would love to educate the American public about the genocides in their countries that were covertly funded by our government well into the 1980's. Hell, we're still doing it in Columbia.

[ShortnFiery]

12. Thanks Cali, I can always count on your thoughtfulness and sensitivity.

"Your OP is a study in inaccuracy and hysteria." :(

Of course I'm aware of the travesties, but when I was serving in the Army, I wanted to live the life of an honorable soldier.

At least immediately after WWII, as a country and "on the surface" we TRIED to get it right. :shrug:

Now I must fly, but cali, please just consider that I'm talking about "as a whole" our image as AMERICANS was profoundly more honorable? ---> at least many of us, including my hero, my belated father, truly believed that he was fighting for our beloved democratic republic. He was so proud of his service in the US Army ... he even quipped, "Every day in The Army is like Sunday on the farm."

Now, we don't even TRY, as a Country, to "walk the walk" of those who cherish our STATED humanitarian values. :shrug:

[bdamomma]

18. I think we better do something cause this is making headlines

on Raw story, Zogby should be condemned. If this comes to the attention of those crazies in the WH, he will run with this.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Bomb_Iran_majority_of_Americans_says_1030.html


Bomb Iran, majority of Americans says in new poll


very dangerous and Zogby should be arrested for putting out this propaganda, Where is Cheney??? doing his evil things again.