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Sorry Sen. Rockefeller, your FISA "war on terror" explanation is a cop out

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 09:32 AM
Original message
Sorry Sen. Rockefeller, your FISA "war on terror" explanation is a cop out
Edited on Wed Oct-31-07 09:32 AM by ProSense

Jay Rockefeller channels Dick Cheney's fear-mongering to urge telecom amnesty

Leading telecom advocate Fred Hiatt this morning turned over his Washington Post Op-Ed page today to leading telecom advocate Jay Rockefeller, the Democratic Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman, to explain why it is so "unfair and unwise" to allow telecoms to be sued for breaking the law. Just as all Bush followers do when they want to "justify" lawbreaking, Rockefeller's entire defense is principally based on one argument: 9/11, 9/11, 9/11. Thus he melodramatically begins:

<…>

Using 9/11 to "justify" telecom amnesty is not only manipulative, but also completely misleading. Telecoms did not merely break the law in the intense days and weeks following the 9/11 attacks. Had they done only that, there would almost certainly be no issue. Indeed, the lead counsel in the AT&T case, Cindy Cohn, said in the podcast interview I conducted with her last week that had telecoms enabled illegal surveillance only in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks – but then thereafter demanded that the surveillance be conducted legally -- EFF almost certainly would not have sued at all.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007

OK, Then, Senator Rockefeller -- At a Minimum, You Should Make Sure the Suits Against the Government Can Go Forward

Marty Lederman

There is much that I question, or disagree with, in Senator Rockefeller's explanation today of why his bill would provide telecom immunity from liability for unlawful conduct.

Most importantly, before concluding that it would be "unfair" to subject the companies to the liability the law calls for, shouldn't we make certain that the certifications presented to them, asking for their assistance, actually complied with the terms the companies knew FISA required? Senator Rockefeller writes: "If American business -- airlines, banks, utilities and many others -- were to decide that it would be too risky to comply with legally certified requests, or to insist on verifying every request in court, our intelligence collection could come to a screeching halt."

Yes, that's right. But that's why the statute doesn't require the companies to take any such extraordinary measures. If the companies were presented with certifications that satisfied the statutory prerequisites on their face, and that were not patently fraudulent, they should be able to rely on such government representations. (Of course, if the companies did rely on such FISA-compliant certifications, courts presumably would quickly dismiss the cases against them on that ground -- which leads one to wonder why they need immunity from such suits.)

But before any such immunity is conferred, Congress should at the very least ask whether the certifications made to the telecom officials and lawyers, about the ostensible lawfulness of the NSA program, included an Attorney General certification that "all statutory requirements have been met," as required by 18 USC 2511(s)(a)(ii). If, as appears likely, such surveillance was being conducted outside FISA, and in particular if it was premised on a so-called Commander-in-Chief authority to disregard FISA, it's hard to imagine how the AG could have made such a certification to the companies. More importantly, perhaps, and as the Senate Intelligence Committee Report itself suggests, during the period in 2004 when Jim Comey and Jack Goldsmith were threatening to resign because the NSA program was so patently unlawful, the certifications to the telcoms were signed not by the AG, or by the Acting AG, but by White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales. That is to say, it appears that the certifications issued during that period were manifestly inadequate under the statute, and the absence of an AG signature should have put the telecoms on clear notice that something smelled to high heaven. (Perhaps they were told that the AG was not available to sign because he was incapacitated in the hospital? Wouldn't that be something?)

If the telecoms went ahead and facilitated the NSA surveillance anyway, even when presented with certifications that were signed by Judge Gonzales, and even when (?) the certifications did not specify that "all statutory requirements have been met" (on this, I'm guessing, of course), should Congress really be eager to assume good faith and to afford them immunity?

<...>

And therefore, if Congress does grant the telecoms immunity, it must also, at the very least, take steps to ensure that the lawsuits against the government can proceed. Senator Rockefeller therefore should insist that his bill incorporate Senator Schumer's bill that would establish an express statutory cause of action to challenge the NSA program, and should also insist on a statutory amendment limiting the scope of any "state secrets" privilege to allow courts to adjudicate the legality of the NSA program without publicly revealing technological capabilities that must remain public.


Warrantless wiretapping in place before 9/11

Chairman Conyers Asks DNI McConnell, Asst. Attorney General Wainstein to Explain Qwest Allegations

Phone Companies Seeking Immunity Gave Money to Senator






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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Jay Rockefeller's Contempt For The Rule Of Law

Jay Rockefeller's Contempt For The Rule Of Law

By Big Tent Democrat
Posted on Wed Oct 31, 2007

One of the biggest disappointments of last night's debate for me was Senator Chris Dodd's refusal to discuss (sure Russert and Williams were not going to ask about it, but so what, thrust the issue into the debate) the raison de etre for his candidacy - restoration of the Constitution ad the rule of law. And today, as Glenn Greenwald discusses, Senator Jay Rockefeller reaches a new disgraceful low, as he argues for total disrespect for the rule of law:

Today there is significant debate about whether the underlying program -- the president's warrantless surveillance plan -- was legal or violated constitutional rights. That is an important debate, and those questions must be answered. In the meantime, however, these companies are being sued, which is unfair and unwise. As the operational details of the program remain highly classified, the companies are prevented from defending themselves in court. And if we require them to face a mountain of lawsuits, we risk losing their support in the future.

What drivel. Losing their support in what? Breaking the law? What in blazes is rockefeller talking about? The telcos will not honor duly issued warrants because they are being sued? Ah, there's the rub. Rockefeller does not believe in the NEED for the government and telcos to follow the law. What's the rule of law to Rockefeller? Nothing at all. He is a disgrace. More.

Rockefeller fills his column with a pack of lies misinformation:

Let's be clear. First, there is no automatic amnesty. All Americans, including corporate citizens, must follow the law and be held accountable for their actions. The bill authorizes case-by-case review in the courts only when the attorney general certifies that a company's actions were based on assurances of legality, and the court is specifically required to determine whether the attorney general abused his discretion before immunity can be granted.

No law is needed to provide this defense to the telcos. It exists under current law. As Greenwald notes:

FISA and other laws already contain amnesty if telecoms can show they acted in good faith. When telecoms comply with the law, they don't get sued. They get sued only when they violate their legal duties to their customers and the country by engaging in exactly the behavior which the American people, through their Congress, decided to prohibit in the form of our "laws."

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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Another
kick! :dem:
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. SHAME ON YOU, SENATOR!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!
:grr:
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. Has Jay Rockefeller EVER opposed or worked against Kit Bond?
WTF good is he?
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. OMG
this really pisses me off.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. Call
Washington, D.C.
531 Hart Senate Office Building
20510
(202) 224-6472
(202) 224-7665 Fax

and put your 2 cents in. I did.
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. kick eom
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Mojorabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
7. I am kicking again
because we need to make our voices heard. Please call.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. Rule by corporations.
Will it ever end?

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. The Weak Case for Telecom Immunity
Wednesday, October 31, 2007

The Weak Case for Telecom Immunity

<...>

The primary argument that Rockefeller and other proponents of immunity make is that immunity is somehow necessary to ensure the future cooperation of the telecom industry. As Rockefeller puts it, "if we require them to face a mountain of lawsuits, we risk losing their support in the future." He warns that "private industry must remain an essential partner in law enforcement and national security."

But this is nonsense. First, it's not as if the telecom companies can refuse to comply with a court order, so there's zero risk of non-compliance in cases where the FISA court is involved. And in cases where only a government directive is required, the current law allows the executive branch to seek an immediate ex parte order from the FISA court if a company refuses to comply with the directive. So it's not as if the companies can just ignore valid government requests for information and assistance. And they won't.

Moreover, there are plenty of existing incentives to cooperate with the government. First, the companies get compensated for their assistance. Second, and more importantly, these companies are always competing with each other for lucrative government contracts. That alone provides plenty of incentive to stay in the good graces of the executive branch.

Beyond that, there is something completely ass-backwards about the logic of this argument. We're being told that the threat of lawsuits and liability will make the telecoms hesitant to cooperate with the government in the future. But the entire point of having civil liability provisions in the law in the first place is to make these companies think twice about complying with legally dubious requests. If that's a problem, then we shouldn't just be granting retroactive immunity, we should be repealing the civil liability provisions altogether. These civil liability provisions exist solely to disincentivize precisely the kind of conduct that occurred here. It is the threat of facing massive lawsuits that is supposed to keep the companies in line.

more

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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
10. Officially disgusted here. nt
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
11. any Dem that supports Amnesty has sealed the deal for me...period
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. 9/11 changed everything, apparently
And telecom companies were so scared of the prospective impact of a terrorist attack, that they sold the American people down the road for this corrupt administration and rolled over even before September 11.

And the poor dears have suffered enough, so much so that in fact Sen. Rockefeller is willing to give them a pass on all illegal activity, both pre- and post-9/11. I've had quite enough of this, thank you. It's time we made the country work on behalf of its citizens again.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kick! n/t
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-01-07 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
15. ...
Edited on Thu Nov-01-07 04:44 AM by Solly Mack
You don't give immunity to those who aid government in breaking the law - you go after them for breaking the law

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