Taser used on Trick or Treater!

[Joanne98]

I can't copy this because it won't let me! Basically some off duty cop heard a girl teenager cussing and decided it was a crime! He grabbed her arm and she fought back so he tasered her. Then he arrested girl and charged her with resisting arrest!

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2007/11/03/taser1103.html?cxntlid=inform

[Demeter]

1. That Will Teach Kids Proper Respect for the Law, All Right!

(shakes head sadly).

[WillyT]

2. Here Ya Go...

Taser was used on trick-or-treater
Police: Girl, 14, became 'extremely combative'

By Andria Simmons
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 11/03/07

<snip>

A Gwinnett County police officer was "forced" to user a Taser on a handcuffed 14-year-old girl who became unruly while trick-or-treating on Halloween night, police said Friday.

The off-duty officer was patrolling Trotter's Ridge subdivision near Snellville, when he noticed the girl cursing while talking with her group of friends, said Cpl. Illana Spellman, spokeswoman for the Gwinnett County Police Department. The officer reportedly warned her to stop cussing because there were other children walking nearby.

The teenager then cursed the officer, Spellman said. The officer told the girl that he would charge her with disorderly conduct if she continued the tirade. As she started to walk off, Spellman said, the officer told her to stop and touched her arm.

That's when police say the girl turned and tried to punch the officer in the face. The officer used physical force to subdue and handcuff her with the help of another officer, but the girl continued to fight, Spellman said.

The officer warned her to stop or he would use a Taser to subdue her, but the girl kept struggling and punching the back of the patrol car with her fists, Spellman said.

"The officer stated she was extremely combative and he was unable to get her into the patrol car," Spellman said. "After several attempts to urge the girl to comply verbally, the officer tased her."

<snip>

Link: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2007/11/03/taser1103.html?cxntlid=inform

[Sanity Claws]

5. Why did he follow her when she walked off?

The cop was looking for trouble and if he couldn't find it, he'd create it. He should be disciplined.

[Lorien]

139. That's what I was thinking too

the cop is an authoritarian thug.

On edit: I wonder what he would have done to the seven year old who came to my door dressed as Boba Fett and was screaming "Open up or I'll break your windows!! Open up or I'll kick your door in"!!!! While his parents stood by staring off into the distance. We know that this generation of kids often have less than stellar manners, but that's no reason to seek out a confrontation with one of them.

[DemBones DemBones]

158. Yes, he was looking to create an incident so he could tase her.

I think we need a federal law to ban tasers entirely. They're probably all made in China, anyway.

After reading about the man tased while sleeping on a couch in his own house and this, I'm really ready to get out of this country.

[seabeyond]

183. i didnt hear about the man on the couch. anyway you could find a link for me

IF it isnt a big deal. or just give me the highlights of the story. i am so pissed about the man that died in canada, ten hours of holding and how dare he,... he got frustrated. they zap him and he dies.

[scarletwoman]

210. Here's the thread about the man being tased while asleep on his couch:

Police taser sleeping man

[seabeyond]

211. thanks. this was the first thread i came to this morning. later found

the thread and already a part of it, lol. i hate this shit. pisses me off. appreciate your effort

[scarletwoman]

225. You're welcome. This stuff really pisses me off, too.

And what pisses me off even MORE, is seeing some DUers actually rationalizing and justifying it! I mean, WTF? No wonder it's so easy for this country to devolve into fascism, when so many so-called "liberals" are authoritarians at heart.

Bravo to you for all your great posts in this thread!

sw

[seabeyond]

226. some DUers actually rationalizing and justifying it! ... they are MORE responsible

than the very cops abusing. it is their silent support that is the enabler that allows the cops to do this.

[scarletwoman]

233. I agree. People of conscience have GOT to take a stand against authoritarianism.

No weaseling about how "maybe" there's a good reason for an adult man to taser a handcuffed 14 year old girl. It's just plain "NO!" NO, there is NO good reason for an adult man to taser a handcuffed 14 year old girl!

sw

[Joanne98]

7. Thanx

[Goblinmonger]

20. Hate to be that guy,

but doesn't sound like this is entirely the cops fault. Should he have tazer her? Don't know enough to know yet. If it was between possibly breaking her arm, dislocating her shoulder, and/or tearing her rotator cuff to stop her from beating on him and tazing her, I think the latter isn't so bad.

I just don't think we know enough to decide yet.

[Trillo]

28. The girl .seemed dumb, but she was also young.

I wonder if she thought he was a trick or treater, elaborately dressed up in cops' garb and playing the part of enforcer complete with radios and cars?

The cop also seemed unreasonable and the instigator, but that's under the presumption that profanity is legal under the First Amendment.

The ACLU has fought past arrests for profanity.
http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16529

Cops seem able to escalate a situation until they need to use their personal taser torture device, and once used, the experience of being tased can never be undone in the memory of the recipient.

It's curious to juxtapose police use of tasers with the governments allowance of waterboarding. As long as there is no lasting and obvious physical evidence of harm, then it seems our overlords seem to think various kinds of torture are okay. I guess our government is telling us that the deliberate inflection of lasting memories of unbearable pain are good things and perfectly acceptable for them to create in response to the slightest of infractions.

[DemBones DemBones]

159. Very well put and I'm starting to think maybe we

need to keep the troops, National Guard and Blackwater mercenaries in Iraq. I'm afraid if they come home, there will be much more of this, especially if there is a terrorist attack (cough) and martial law is instituted.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

256. I hear you

I also think this will happen when we "bring home our troops"

[sandnsea]

42. Was he in uniform??

If he wasn't in uniform he was completely out of line. If he was, well, he needs to venture out a little more because teen-agers cussing is NORMAL.

[Skidmore]

168. I'd say he was out of line even if he was in uniform.

I think law enforcement is completely out of control in this nation, starting from the top down. A whole lot of entitlement and not much accountability.

[TahitiNut]

58. I must wonder at the "ethical calculus" that regards vulgar speech a greater wrong ...

... than using a taser on a 14-year-old. If the speech was too offensive for the "other children" then what was the taser?? The authoritarian mindset is a truly cock-eyed thing.

[Progressive Friend]

98. Hmm, this happened in the Confederate State of Georgia...

And the college student at the Kerry speech was tasered in the Confederate State of Florida.

I'm detecting a pattern here.

[DemBones DemBones]

160. In PENNSYLVANIA, man sleeping on couch in his own home tasered.

Two North Braddock police officers won't face criminal charges for Tasering a man who was asleep at home. But the FBI will review the incident for possible civil rights violations.

Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen Zappala Jr. says county police determined Officers Gerard Kraly and Lukas Laeuricia (loo-REE'-see-uh) didn't commit a crime when they Tasered Shawn Hicks, who was sleeping on his couch.

Police came to Hicks home because they were alerted by a silent security alarm at his home about 2 a.m.

Hicks says the officers Tasered him again after he woke up and showed them ID to prove he lived at the home. Hicks' attorney says he will pursue civil action.


How they got in the house is not stated but I think this is worse than the incidents in GA and FL, and PA was not part of the CSA so knock off the South-bashing, OK?

[seabeyond]

185. ignore my post above. thanks for the info n/t

[Toots]

165. The off-duty officer was patrolling Trotter's Ridge

It is in the childs best interest to fight against an unkown person that wants to "arrest" her. What the hell was the policeman doing patrolling when he was off duty? I think there was some molestation going on and this cop needs to be in prison..

[October]

213. Her cussing might upset the other children?

Her cussing might upset the other children? Not the cop tasering a young girl, arresting her, and wrestling her to his car?

[seabeyond]

217. first they cuff, then they taser. yes, i agree, quite a site for our little

ones to surely be fearful and resoundly intimidated and fearing the cops for a long time to come.

[Sugar Smack]

236. The other kids were old enough to go out by themselves, and if that

were the case AT LEAST, they'd heard the words before, doubtless. The children nearby had NO choice at that point.They could have heard the girl using profanity (*SHEESH*) OR heard the girl using profanity AND seen her acting out, THEN handcuffed, THEN hit with a taser, THEN screaming & shitting her pants and convulsing.

Let's see...dunno, which is more memorable? Which'll scare the fuck out of me enough for a lifetime if I were 8 years old again?

[Tesha]

3. Here's some of the text...

Taser was used on trick-or-treater

Police: Girl, 14, became 'extremely combative'

By Andria Simmons
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 11/03/07

A Gwinnett County police officer was "forced" to user a
Taser on a handcuffed 14-year-old girl who became unruly
while trick-or-treating on Halloween night, police said
Friday.

The off-duty officer was patrolling Trotter's Ridge
subdivision near Snellville, when he noticed the girl
cursing while talking with her group of friends, said
Cpl. Illana Spellman, spokeswoman for the Gwinnett
County Police Department. The officer reportedly warned
her to stop cussing because there were other children
walking nearby.

The teenager then cursed the officer, Spellman said.
The officer told the girl that he would charge her
with disorderly conduct if she continued the tirade.
As she started to walk off, Spellman said, the officer
told her to stop and touched her arm.

That's when police say the girl turned and tried to
punch the officer in the face. The officer used physical
force to subdue and handcuff her with the help of another
officer, but the girl continued to fight, Spellman said.

<more>

[rodeodance]

16. was "forced" to user a Taser--she was HANDCUFFED already!!!

[Squatch]

92. "The off-duty officer was patrolling Trotter's Ridge subdivision ..."

:wtf:

[notadmblnd]

140. That didn't make sense to me either

if he was off duty, then why was he patrolling? something about this story is fishy.

[Liberal_in_LA]

154. me either. Off duty cop thinks he's THE LAW.

[taterguy]

4. 14 is too old for Trick or Treating

[Tesha]

Not in our neighborhood. (NT)

[LiberalVoice]

13. But not old enough to be tasered. nt

[iamthebandfanman]

15. i agree , but how does that make it okay?

[rodeodance]

17. lots of teens go T and T-------nothing wrong with that

[Bluebear]

19. That's right, so tase her!

[seabeyond]

24. so tase all 13 and above trick or treaters? about stupid n/t

[rAVES]

48. WHAT? 14 is a child ffs! dont be ridicules.

[taterguy]

77. What is ridicules?

I'm not hip to that lingo

[uppityperson]

83. The only reply you respond to is for a misspelled word.

That's it? That's all?

[taterguy]

85. Well so far

Give me some time to think before I post :)

[TahitiNut]

72. Nonsense. Among the most fun groups to visit my house was a group of 9th graders.

The group of eight seemed to be the equivalent of the "honor society" since they were quite obviously very smart and very well-informed, wearing costumes that portrayed intellectual topics - not just pop culture. One of the kids wore a sandwuch board (made of poster paper) with an extensive anti-bush 'message' ... and another remarked about how the digits of my house address had certain numerical properties (sum-of-digits, etc.). All this was in a boistrous, playful, and highly conversational style. They were a TREAT for me ... and I adore all the younger kids, too.

[Roy]

114. But not too old for tasering, after trying to peacefully leave his presence?

[taterguy]

136. Sorry, I was conducting an experiment

I made a dumb flippant post just to see what would happen. It got a lot of replies. That's fine with me. I like attention, we all do.

And I hate to sound OCD but here's what troubles me. From a rational standpoint the issue of tasers is insignificant. Not many of us on this site will ever be tasered. However, we'll all be affected by some of the issues that I bring up in threads that sink like a stone.

So what should I do? Post boring old threads about issues that matter or play to the crowd and make posts that I know will generate a lot of response and attention?

The classic dilemma of the "artiste." :)

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[taterguy]

186. I think life is too short to call people asshole without a really good reason

Do I support torturing children? Well no. I merely made a flippant remark about the appropriate age for trick or treating. Maybe I should have clarified my remarks but I'm lazy.

Obviously I'm biased but I don't think I'm an asshole.

Just ask the guy on top of me in this pic. He'll tell you that I'm actually a very sweet and kind guy.

[MrMickeysMom]

176. I read this response after responding to you...

... I sure HOPE it's statistically significant that we CARE about this!

:hi:

[NOLALady]

215. I agree with you

in that I don't think (would hope) that I would never be tasered. However, I have children and grandchildren who could possibly run into some idiot cop who may decide he needs some target practice with his new laser toy.

[MrMickeysMom]

175. Is that supposed to have anything to do with her getting tasered?

I don't care how old she was. Aggression such as was described was purposeful in that the officer escalated it. They should be trained to DE-escalate potential aggressive behavior.

I just wrote the police chief there and told him so.

[NOLALady]

214. But, not too young for tasering.

[JVS]

231. 1000000% agreement here!

Too old!

[taterguy]

252. Finally, a voice of reason in this thread

I was beginning to wonder about this place

[blonndee]

6. Almost scarier are the comments following the story. Sigh. n/t

[jody]

8. The girl's foster mother was not surprised at the girl's behavior.

The girl's foster mother, Ida Martin, declined to talk about the incident on Friday morning.

According to a police report, however, Martin told the arresting officer he did what he had to do to gain control. She reportedly said she didn't doubt that her daughter had been using foul language and behaving violently toward him.

Even so, Martin said the officer should have tried talking to the girl more to calm her down instead of stunning her with the Taser, the report said.

[tammywammy]

18. And the foster mother hasn't filed a complaint against the officer either

[DemBones DemBones]

161. Some foster parents are just doing it for the money, not

because they care about the kids. Sad but true.

[tammywammy]

250. I agree

I wonder, the article was ambiguous, it said the "parents." I don't know if that means foster parents or the child's biological parents.

[NOLALady]

218. That jumped out at me also.

So, she wasn't surprised by the girl's behavior, I wonder if the officer's behavior surprised her. Some kids use foul language. It's a crime now?
It seems that she didn't become violent until he grabbed her. He SAID he TOUCHED her arm. Right!

[seabeyond]

219. i also want to know if the attempted punch was her jerking her arm out

of his grasp too. one of those, wish it was on video

[seabeyond]

323. if he said grabbed, he knew he would be in trouble. gotta say touch.

he doesnt have a choice on that one

[treestar]

240. Good point, too, you'd think this modern nation would have better

trained cops - wouldn't there be some sort of "handle the wild teenager" methods by now? This cop seemed quick to resort to the taser, though we haven't got his side of the story here.

[Elspeth]

9. Any cop who can't handle a 14-year old girl trick or treating should turn in his badge

These insecure cops are just too much.

[lame54]

10. she got the trick - not the treat

"Don't tase me bro!"
the slogan for the 21st century

[Swamp Rat]

11. "The teenager did not sustain any serious injuries."

Oh yeah, Dr. Andria "Carl Jung" Simmons? :eyes:

[seabeyond]

12. and i had two teenage boys be abusive and i told them to get off property in mother tone

they did. 46 yr old woman can handle two teenage boys but a MALE cop needs a taser on a girl. i would say the cop needs to NOT be a cop if this is all he has

[sam sarrha]

25. i was a juvenile parole officer, 4% of delinquents r female, but 1will give you the grief of 20 boys

[seabeyond]

29. damn, for an adult to have to deal with grief. hey..... i havent

given up my power to our youth. i will deal with the "grief" a 14 yr old girl gives me. oh... i do. i have my niece living here all the time, not to mention my other niece that is now 18. no daughters, two sons, i get what you say the challenge in girls. i love that i have two sons. and i thought i wanted a girl. boys ARE so much easier, for me anyway. regardless, i am pretty damn sure we adults can handle our children. even though we are now so afraid of them, even elementary school children, that we are GIVING them all sorts of power. i chose not to

[seabeyond]

30. but i hope you are not suggesting a grown MALE had no other way of dealing

with a teenage girl, yet an old lady was more than able to deal with two teenage males..... i dont think statistics will bare with you. i simply acted like an adult. the cop did not

[Goblinmonger]

108. and what if those two teenage males

had decided to try and punch the old lady in the face instead of just leaving her alone? How would that have gone?

[seabeyond]

115. i dont live life in what ifs of fears to allow fear to control my life when the odds are so far

in my favor. i am not so very fuckin (arrest me now for cussing) afraid in life that i need a totally controlled environment with cops and tasers and guns ect....

if those two teenager hit me in the face so be it, then i will deal with the reality of that. i dont react to ifs, i react to what is. there were lots of people. hubby was watching in the window. and i can handle myself. they could have had guns, they could have had knives. could have all over the place

a 46 yr old old woman with two little kids on the way to florida at 6 in the morning for a week vacation could have bombs and willing to take down the plane. fuckin lots of ifs in the world.

[Goblinmonger]

117. You are the one that brought up this

I can control teenage boys but these cops suck because they can't control one little girl. Apples. Oranges. You told the boys to knock it off--they did. Cop told her to knock it off--she tried to punch him in the face. Don't compare the two. That's all my comment is in regard to.

And you swearing on this forum would not meet the definition of disorderly conduct. Don't be deliberately obtuse.

[seabeyond]

121. cops tld her to knock it off. she walked away. cop stopped her.

i imagine if i followed the boys after they walked away, grabbed their arm, there might have been problems too

[NOLALady]

220. The way I read it,

she swung at him AFTER he grabbed her.

[seabeyond]

222. but that is ok too, cause the cop gets to hold her there until he deems

it is time to let her go, even if it is supposedly all over. per some posters her thinking dont do it again and walking away is so very wrong to warrant a tasering because the cop did not officially allow her to leave, .... he didnt say, you may go now. i guess he just wasnt "done" with her yet. maybe needed more time to humiliate, control, intimidate her. silly girl.....

[Goblinmonger]

291. Way to misrepresent my position

According to what we know, it wasn't over. SHE thought it was over and left. The cop "touched her arm" (don't read anymore into that cause we only have the article to go on) and she tried to punch him in the face. THE WALKING AWAY DIDN'T WARRENT THE TASER. The attempted punch to the face warrented the arrest and cuffing and the continued struggle, abuse, and destruction of property after she was cuffed warrented the taser.

But, hey, don't let what is actually written in the article get in your way of declaring this cop guilty.

[sam sarrha]

129. i do not agree with his tactics, but know how mentally ill some of the girls were, we had attempted

murder of parents during hyper emotional fits... we are talking total berserkering. we had 18% delinquent girls, some just went thru a period of 'insanity' toward any authority.

she may have been a known personality/offender, we had a 16 yr girl it took 4 big cops yo sub due after she tried yo kill her mother,

tho i cant see why he went after her when she left, i'd a said good riddence..sounds like perpetuated and inflamed a bad situation cause she pissed him off.

[seabeyond]

130. after her when she left, i'd a said good riddence..sounds like perpetuated and inflamed

and that is what people are arguing on tis thread. not that there are bad girls that are hard to handle.

[lazer47]

178. so now you want to taze mentally ill, ???? That makes sense

[Fleshdancer]

14. is it normal for off duty cops to patrol?

and the whole idea of not being able to handle a 14yr old girl is bullsh*t. Does anyone else think it's odd that he didn't want her to cuss around other kids but he was fine with the idea of tasering her when she was handcuffed? Honestly, I would rather my daughter hear a cuss word than witness a grown man doing this.

[Gormy Cuss]

23. He may have been working a private security job.

Still, if the teen's only offensive was refusal to stop swearing then the cop was completely overboard in handcuffing her, never mind using a taser. If her foster mother had slapped her across the face because of her swearing, that would be child abuse. An off-duty cop, perhaps playing rent a cop, can use a taser for the same offense?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

21. Because it takes a taser for a grown man to take down a 14 y/o girl.

How did this idiot pass the physical?

[seabeyond]

22. but cops use it ONLY as last resort, dontcha know. that is what i am told by supporter

of micro wave zapper. why we can trust the cops when they zap us with the microwave thing. they ONLY do it last resort, just like the taser. no abuse here. nope.....

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. He did use it as a last resort.

First he talked to her, then he physically stopped her from leaving, then he handcuffed her, and then, last of all, once she was stopped and handcuffed, he tased her.

Last resort.

Incredible.

[annabanana]

40. a taser is supposed to be instead of DEADLY FORCE...

Please explain to my why a cursing 14 year old ought to be shot?

[seabeyond]

43. because she dared to continue being disrespectful to cop. seems that is the most

offensive of action and warrants punishment per a few posters on this thread. then they dont "get" why many of us dont trust a cop to use a microwave zapper as a LAST RESORT

hugest of duhs....

[Goblinmonger]

91. She punched him in the face

according to the article. That is just being "disrespectful." As a matter of fact, I would guess that would be a good way to get on the bad side of a cop pretty quickly.

On edit: tried to punch him in the face.

[seabeyond]

97. then he cuffed her. she is now being arrested for that.

so that validates the taser how. or is the taser him administrating punishment after she is cuffed.

[Goblinmonger]

100. After being cuffed

{and, again, I am going by the article and have said upthread that we don't know all that we need to know in this case} she continued to fight him and would not stop. Sure he could have physically restrained her. That may have resulted, if she continued to fight him as he tried to physically restrain her, in a broken arm, dislocated shoulder, torn rotator cuff, or all of the above. What would you be saying then. Cop thought the taser was the least likely to harm her and stop her from fighting him.

Perhaps she could have just stopped swearing in public (which is a crime--disorderly conduct) and none of this would have happened.

[seabeyond]

102. two cops not one. cant put her in the car? i dont believe it. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

106. Were you there?

Again, I admit we don't know enough. Either of us. But if she was continuing to fight, "putting her in the car" would have been a very physical task that very likely could result in broken bones, knocks to the head, or pulled/strained/ripped muscles. I can only imagine your outrage then.

[Sugar Smack]

235. You know, I can't think of that situation in terms of escalation

because I wasn't there, but get this: The horror of little kids hearing bad words they possibly don't already know VS the horror of seeing an older kid fall screaming to the ground, shitting her pants & convulsing? Seems pretty easy to me. If I were a little kid & saw that happen, my young mind would fear all authority and obey, whatever the command. Breaking in line at Starbucks, etc. Not a stretch, either.

Going from etiquitte into possible killing for those with heart conditions? It's not even a question for me.

[Goblinmonger]

292. But that's not the progression of events.`

According to the article (which is all we have and probably isn't enough at this point), here are the chaing of events:

1. Girl was swearing up a storm
2. Cop stopped her and told her to stop swearing or she would get a disorderly conduct
3. Girl walked away (lots of grey area here as to what happened)
4. Cop "touched her arm"
5. Girl tried to punch cop in face
6. Cop stopped her from doing that and cuffed her
7. Girl continued to struggle, to attempt to hit cop, and hit car repeatedly.
8. Cop tasered her after all of that when she wouldn't stop

But, hey, just continue to say "girl got tasered because she swore." That sounds a lot better. Facts be damned (as we know them from the article which isn't enough to make a final determination at this point).

[Evoman]

305. After #5, the cop should have pushed her away and let her go her own way.

She wasn't a threat to the cop, she was leaving so she wasn't a threat to the kids. The cop should have realized, as the adult, that the shit was getting out of hand and just let her walk.

So its against the law to strike an officer...I understand that. But I also understand that there are times when you don't HAVE TO use your authority and that you, your community, and the girl would have been better of if he had just let her walk. Chalk it off to her being scared, and walk away.

[Goblinmonger]

307. Listen

you atheist fundamentalist :evilgrin:

More seriously, I think I admit that there is where the biggest amount of grey area lies and probably the place where I think I would need to admit that the cop was wrong (there or the tasering).

I can think of a lot of scenarios where him "touching her on the arm" would be just fine (and many that would not be fine). If she turned away, continued to loudly swear, he would be right to touch her arm and remind her that she was facing a disorderly conduct charge. Or maybe he should have just issued the charge and been done with it.

And, btw, someone needs to take a screen shot of this conversation so we can show some people in R/T that there isn't an evil atheist conspiracy where we all agree lock step.

[Evoman]

314. For sure.

It just so happens that apart from a fundie atheist, I'm also an pissed off, anti-authoritarian Latino male with bad cop experiences.

So I'm sure there is bound to be some disagreement between us ;)

[lazer47]

179. Prehaps she should just roll over and play dead and be

submissive, isn't that what we teach people these days,,

[NOLALady]

224. And maybe it wouldn't have happened if he hadn't decided to

grab her after she turned and walked away. She was walking away, he followed her, intruded into her space and she went off.

[Goblinmonger]

293. We don't know he did that

We don't know that he "grabbed her" or that he "followed her" or that he "intruded into her space." We do "know" that he "touched her arm." If you get to speculate on what the cop might have done, we also have to speculate on what the girl might have done. I have offered plenty of scenarios in this thread which show the cop would not have been in the wrong.

[ieoeja]

301. A man touching a strange woman deserves whatever he gets. n/t

[Goblinmonger]

306. Really

Even a cop dealing with someone that has broken the law. That cop "touching her on the arm" deserves to get punched in the face? And somehow I'M the one that is the bad guy in this thread.

[Evoman]

315. You gotta keep up with the news, dude.

I heard on the radio that there have been a growing number of incidents where people dressed like cops are pulling over young women and raping/robbing them. Cop uniforms...really easy to get. Moreover, it was 1)halloween and 2)he was off duty.

[mtnester]

331. EXACTLY...I can hear it now because I was a smart mouthed kid myself

As she was walking away, she called him a bad name...sure she did...and then he got pissed and grabbed her....that is where is ALL went wrong, and THAT is the fault of the cop.

This whole story depends on what the cop was wearing...every last bit of it. If he was in plain clothes, this young lady did EXACTLY what the schools/parents/TV/PSA's taught her entire damn life from the time she could comprehend about stranger danger...if someone grabs you, you fight to get away.

Teenagers are difficult, but the last resort to deadly force is not a way to punish smart mouthed kids for their behavior. He would have been better off to simply ignore this and keep walking.

And the saddest thing? No one at all is stepping up for this child in her immediate/day to day life (there is one reason she is begging for attention with the cussing). I applaud the thread upstream who rationally wrote the police chief. More of that needs to happen.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. Sorry, I should have used the sarcasm smiley.

It was last resort, as that it was the last of a series of overreactions he used against the horrendous threat of a cursing child.

Frankly, if he had no taser and the last resort WAS lethal force, it would never have been escalated like that. That the taser is the new 'last resort' only guarantees that it will be used because it is not seen as something to be avoided, but instead as something to be worked up to.

[uppityperson]

84. You pegged it right there.

"That the taser is the new 'last resort' only guarantees that it will be used because it is not seen as something to be avoided, but instead as something to be worked up to."

[DemBones DemBones]

162. Yep. They escalate a situation so they can use their new phallic symbol.

Not all cops are bad but some are sick sadistic SOBs. I've known both kinds.

[ManiacJoe]

259. Tasers are NOT a replacement for deadly force.

Tasers are a supplement for non-lethal force, like pepper spray and batons.

[seabeyond]

260. tell that to the dead people who were tased. sure they will appreciate it. n/t

[aikoaiko]

26. Too bad she didn't say, "Sorry officer, I'll stop with the colorful language and keep my voice down"

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

31. and too bad we dont live in utopia.

:shrug:

[aikoaiko]

36. Too bad you think its "utopic" to comply with a lawful request from a police officer

[seabeyond]

39. what is utopic is you feel all will behave in your confined little image of how the world should be

or they get punished at the will of those that have the power over us. lets look at why a teenage kid might act up like that and the only way we have dealing with it is to physically hurt them. yet i bet you would be the first to be outraged if a parent used spanking as a mean to teach a child respect and follow authoritarian rule.

[Goblinmonger]

94. So

a cop asking a minor to not engage in disorderly conduct (which is illegal) is the same as a parent spanking a child. Apples. Oranges.

And the use of the taser came after she {on edit: tried to} punch him in the face and continued to fight him. He did not use the taser because she swore.

[seabeyond]

110. As she started to walk off, Spellman said, the officer told her to stop and touched her arm.

he told her to stop or.... she turned and walked away..... he touched her. now... he is in the wrong. per article. he said go, she was going, he touched (and i would really like to know "touched") her. grabbed. stopping her. she is going like he says and he stops her????

[Goblinmonger]

116. You are making that up.

He didn't tell her to go. Here are the paragraphs in discussion.

The off-duty officer was patrolling Trotter's Ridge subdivision near Snellville, when he noticed the girl cursing while talking with her group of friends, said Cpl. Illana Spellman, spokeswoman for the Gwinnett County Police Department. The officer reportedly warned her to stop cussing because there were other children walking nearby.

The teenager then cursed the officer, Spellman said. The officer told the girl that he would charge her with disorderly conduct if she continued the tirade. As she started to walk off, Spellman said, the officer told her to stop and touched her arm.

He clearly wasn't done talking to her. My guess (and, again, I don't know this and we clearly don't know enough about this instance) is that she let a few more fly as she was walking away. But regardless, he DID NOT tell her to go, she started to leave and he touched her arm to stop her.

[seabeyond]

123. so

"he would charge her with disorderly conduct if she continued the tirade. As she started to walk off, Spellman said, the officer told her to stop and touched her arm

so... she walks away and you "guess he wasnt done allowing him to stop her". "then you guess she continued with the tirade" and then you tell me i am not there, we dont know... as you defend the cops behavior

[Goblinmonger]

125. Way to move the goal posts, champ

You said he told her to go and then told her to stop. I quoted the article showing he didn't tell her to go. Now it is a different issue.

Which is the more likely scenario:

1. She turned away, said nothing, and quietly went about trick or treating.
2. She turned away and told the cop to go fuck himself (or some variant).

I'm going with 2.

But, again, we don't know enough. You want to throw the cop in jail for something you don't know. I just want to indicate there might be another side to this story.

[seabeyond]

128. 6 in the morning i was held at airport being wand... like a criminal

lady asked me how i was. i told her i think this is a bunch of crap. not loud, not angry. (i didnt have enough coffee yet so could barely talk) i resent holding my arms out, spreading my legs, just cause i was the one chosen to be treated like a criminal. i know i am suppose to submit. i know i am suppose to be thankful for my safety cause we are all just so afraid. but i am not afraid. i am not criminal. and i do not like being treated like a criminal.

so, calmyly, quietly i told her i think this is a bunch of crap as she wands me.

she tells me to wait

she gets the security dude.

the security dude is in my space, an inch from my face and stares at me.

he doesnt say anything

i say what?

he says i understand you have a problem

i say yes, i think this is a bunch of crap.

not threat, not angry, not out of control, not mad.

we stand there
we stand there
we stand there.

finally i say.... are you done with me

he moves out fo my way and i walk forward and realize.... i was suppose to be intimidate. well fuck me. i didnt even think about being intimidate. not being the criminal. having a right to say this is a bunch of crap. didnt dawn on me

i am going ot be the one to be zapped, because.... whatever your excuse may be

sounds like you are in this environment in one way or another. you know even when they are done with you, they keep you there for intimidation, hence your, "he didnt give her permission to fuckin leave". give her fuckin permission to leave. my god the arrogance in control of another person. how dare you

[Goblinmonger]

149. 7:30 this morning

I was on the highway. Patrol officer was parked in the turn around. I passed him going 10 mph over the speed limit. He waved at me as I went by.

Are we just exchanging anecdotal evidence?

[seabeyond]

150. no, but then i dont expect much more out of you.

i am not the enemy as much as you may like to see me as such. i am the average joe. it would behoove our police to ask why people like myself are turning away from supporting the police when we always have in the past. but they cant wont dont do that out of their own arrogance. not only does it hurt them, but it hurts all of us. that is not my answer to a problem. for all to be losers in this. i prefer to find a solution where we are all winners.

but ignore what is being said, and hold to your position of blind support and allow this to continue in escalation out fo pride.

[Goblinmonger]

151. Where have I ever indicated blind support?

Are you arguing for blind unsupport? Fight the cops at every turn? Of course not. My point is that there are plenty of scenarios where this is not the cop having a problem. WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THIS SITUATION. I'm the only one that seems to be admitting that. You have convicted this cop of crimes against humanity based on one media article. And I'M the one with the problem?

[seabeyond]

153. simply, you can see a need to taser a 14 yr old girl, cuffed, with two MALE cops

i cannot ever see that need.

[seabeyond]

187. another of the growing example of "just" tasering

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2202021&mesg_id=2202021

[Gormy Cuss]

Lawful request? More like a cop using the handy catch-all charge when a person has ticked him off.

Disorderly conduct and disturbing the peace are the weakest misdemeanor charges out there and are very popular with cops who shouldn't be in law enforcement. Sure, some states allow the charge because someone is using obscene language in public but if that's the best the cop could come up with, it's a pretty weak excuse to detain someone.

[aikoaiko]

54. he didn't try to detain her at 1st -- only asked her to stop.

He detained her because she wouldn't stop,

[Gormy Cuss]

65. He detained her because she wouldn't stop swearing --that's weak.

As always there may be important details left out of a single news report but the way it is described here, an off duty cop retained a 14 year old solely because she wouldn't change her language to suit him. No suggestion that she was directing the language at the younger children nor at the cop. No suggestion that she was using language that would constitute threatening either. Again, it reads like the cop was just grasping at straws because he was annoyed that she didn't respect his authority.


on edit: if an adult slapped her in the face because she wouldn't stop swearing, the adult would be arrested for assault. A police officer cuffs her, puts her in a car and gets to use a taser for the same offense. That's slightly out of whack, IMHO.

[DemBones DemBones]

164. What part of "off duty cop" don't you get? He had no authority

to detain her for swearing, and she had no way to know who he was, even if he was in uniform, because it was Halloween.

As for the younger children, I assure you that the chances that they didn't know the words she used are slim.

The cop was just bored and wanted to go off on someone, IMO.

[Goblinmonger]

296. I don't have statutes in front of me

but I think if he was "off duty" he can still stop people. So if you were getting mugged by an armed robber on the street, you would rather that an "off duty" cop just kept on walking and called someone in who might come in 5 minutes or would you rather that "off duty" cop actually stop it while they were there.

[Tesha]

113. A very-near-future lawful request: "Your papers, please..."

Will you comply?

Tesha

[Goblinmonger]

148. Slippery Slope

These are not the same. This girl was engaged in disorderly conduct. She was asked to stop using profanity in the presence of children under 14. During the request she tried to punch a cop in the face. And then continued to fight. If she had stopped swearing and not tried to punch a cop, this story is pretty damn boring.

[Tesha]

184. It's not all that different.

> This girl was engaged in disorderly conduct.
> She was asked to stop using profanity in the
> presence of children under 14.

Perhaps it was disorderly conduct; I don't
think all the facts are yet in evidence.

But the response was quite un-proportionate
to the nature of her crime, wasn't it? And
it was taken by an off-duty police officer
acting under full color of law even though
we don't have hard evidence that 1) he had
any right to be acting under color of law
or 2) he identified himself adequately as
a police officer.

But if you're happy giving the Fingermen
full rein to do whatever they want whenever
they want, well, you're not alone here at
DU, and that will be to the eventual loss
of all of us.

Tesha

[Joanne98]

32. He was off duty! How was she suppose to know he was a cop?

He could have been a child molestor.

[aikoaiko]

34. Maybe the police car might have been the first clue.

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

35. she was handcuffed and controlled. he tasered her as punishment for continued

belligerence. that is punishment for her misbehavior and no more. it is not the job of cops to punish their charge. it is the courts.

[annabanana]

41. BINGO!. . . n/t

[aikoaiko]

44. the paper report said she was more than just verbally belligerent , she was punching the car

I don't understand how she was handcuffed and doing that, but if she was being violent enough to damage property or hurt herself, then it was the officer's responsibility to stop her.

[tammywammy]

47. Maybe he cuffed her in the front and not the back

:shrug:

[aikoaiko]

49. thats possible.

[seabeyond]

56. unlikely... they are not allowed to cuff in front. so if he did, his ass should be tasered

for not following his rules and setting up a situation that should not have been

[tammywammy]

61. Do you have a link saying they're not allowed?

Thanks.

[seabeyond]

66. you will have to talk to police department yourself.

i dont know if all things are on the web or not.

[tammywammy]

71. I just don't know if that's standard across the board

How do you know they're not allowed to handcuff in the front?

I'm just curious. If he was wrong and did that, then he should be reprimanded for that.

[aikoaiko]

63. if he unjustifiably didn't follow procedure he should be punished.

I'll agree with you there.

[seabeyond]

68. he did by the simple fact of zapping her..... as last resort. he was a bad cop or inadaquit cop

all the way around on this situation

[Goblinmonger]

109. Again, you were there? n/t

[seabeyond]

119. spport the abuse of police with the argument of "where you there"

thoughout your arguments you make conjectures of if they didnt use taser would result in broken bones, like that is a reality, a given, an only way... yet your answers are "were you there".

this blind support of bad police behavior is resulting in lack of respect for authority from the average joe like me. the authorities need my support and respect yet they are quickly losing it. it is going to turn our nation into chaos and it will be people like you, more than the absive cops, that will be responsible for this.

i am not you bleeding heart liberal. i believe in personal responsibility. a ction reaction. we create. i believe in repercussion for action. i belive in order. i believe in law. and i am the one police are losing that has always before in the past supported our law enforcement. it has been a deacde of me watching this progression. it is not one event. one moment in time. it is what we are becoming

treat us like animals and criminals, and that is what we will become

this girl was treated as a criminal, this is what she became. not that she was a criminal at the beginning. but per the cops behavior, that is what she ended up as.

[Goblinmonger]

122. You are going off on this cop without knowing anything

I have clearly be stating throughout that we don't know enough. I'm just not ready to throw this cop to the lions when there are many logical scenarios that make him doing nothing wrong. Could he be an asshole cop that had a hard on for beating up some young kid? Sure. Could she have been some asshole kid that was ready and willing to throw down with a cop? Yep. I'm just trying to counter the shitstorm in this thread with two things: 1)we don't know enough. 2)cop might have been right.

She was treated as a criminal because she was. She was engaged in disorderly conduct.

[seabeyond]

124. you are putting conjectures all over for the cops behavior

defending the cops at every point of their misconduct, then point the finger at me

simply.... tasering a 14 yr old is inadaquit police action in my opinion.

[Goblinmonger]

126. So there is no time

when it is OK to taser a 14-year-old. None. Zip.

If everything in the article is 100% accurate, I'll go with the cop. How's that. Not your wild ideas about how the scenario went, but verbatim to the article. If there is more information, I reserve the right to change my stand. He touched her arm (not grabbed it, jerked it, yanked it) because he wasn't done talking to her. She said nothing. She then tried to punch him in the face and after being handcuffed continued to fight, struggle, and punch the car. In that instance, I will trust the cop's judgement that a taser was going to cause less harm to the girl than him physcially using pain to subdue her, yes.

[Bonobo]

198. Wake-Up! "Procedures" are written by people. Not imposed by God. OK?

You need to wake the fuck up.

[seabeyond]

53. like they have done decades in the past.... pick her up and put her in

they didn't always have tasers yet still they were able to handle these situations. all of a sudden, we have tasers, and there is NO other recourse but to zap them. that is stupid thinking and allowing police to abuse, which in turns create dissent from the people, which create less support for cops not to mention loss of respect, which make cops angry and more abusive to control population. treat us like animals, criminals and that is what we become. if that cop had handle the girl in a mature manner, an arrest would not have been necessary and th subsequenct actions.

firstly

secondly the cops are using "punching" things an awful lot as an excuse to zap people. you cant figure out how cuffed she can do it, but you buy it and dont question it. rollin eyes. these tasers take life. last resort does not result with death in things. death for vandalism is NOT good enough for me. and we have seen tasers kill.

joanne posted a thread where a man is held in airport for ten hours. he is frustrated. he is punishing things. ot hard enough to break window or computer, so not big deal "punching" things, but big enough for the cop to use as excuse to taser. he dies.

so totally not a way to handle the situation. our cops going to deal with these issue and given power of life and death they had better damn well be taught how to deal with them. this is not the way

[aikoaiko]

55. in days of old the police " cracked skulls" -- what mythic past are you referring too.

[seabeyond]

oh bullshit, when they did they got their ass charged. that is a bunch of crap

to sugggest they would have cracked this kid over the head to control her in the old days, or used the now not allowed choke hold cause it was killing people

[aikoaiko]

59. believe what you will, but police have been and will be allowed to use pain to gain compliance

the methods and techniques change, but its still the same function.

[seabeyond]

62. you are totally ignoring the "reasonable" part of the equation. how convenient n/t

[aikoaiko]

69. convenient -- only because you just realized you didn't know what you're talking about.

[seabeyond]

74. bullshit. i know if a cop crack a skull for this in the past they would be in trouble

i know that the choke hold used in hand to hand has been disallowed because it killed people. yet you are telling me a taser that kills people is ok physical force for a 14 yr old girl handcuffed. not a matter of me not knowing what i am talking about, anywhere in my arguments. it is a matter of you blindly supporting, that will ultimately create the most chaos in our society as cops further abuse and we continue to fear, disrespect our cops more and more

i prefer for the cops to work with its citizens and not see us all as animals or criminals. universal law, you treat us as, we will become. i dont want to live in that world. i dont want my children to grow up in that world. i want a better society

your attitudes promtoes chaos. not mine.

[aikoaiko]

79. "cracking skulls" is just one of many expressions to imply the use of pain for compliance.

Billy clubs to ribs, arm locks, wrist holds, etc etc etc.

Sure, some cops have gotten in trouble for excessive force, but by and large cops do not when someone is failing to comply with lawful requests.

[seabeyond]

70. a parent slaps the face for cussing/ a cop tasers for cussing

how can you logically defend this?

[aikoaiko]

76. read the article again, she wasn'te tasered for cussing.

[seabeyond]

78. she was tasered because the cop abused his power. and you are endorsing his abuse

if you really want to play word games. there was no reason for the initial arrest in the first place. there was no reason for her to be cuffed. and there was no reason for taser, but the cop wanted to.

[aikoaiko]

86. Saying I am endosing abuse is like me saying you're endorsing teens committing crimes

Its stupid.

I'll bow out now because you're making shit up and I find it difficult to converse with people when they do that.

[seabeyond]

88. she cussed. you cussed. that is not a crime. and yes, you are endorsing abuse n/t

[tammywammy]

93. I think it was the punching of the cop, not the cussing

[Goblinmonger]

103. Her cussing would be disorderly conduct and is a crime.

If a student at school tells me to fuck off, they can (and have) been charged with disorderly conduct and given a fine.

Broke up a fight last month and was taking both kids (with another teacher) to the office where our police liason is and one kid tried to start up again. I turned him and told him to keep walking. He said as loud as he could, "Fuck you Mr ______, Fuck you. What are you going to do about it." I told him he was making things worse for himself, informed the liason of the exchange, he got a $150 disorderly ticket. $50 was knocked off because he apologized to me. Would I have laid him out if he came at me? Yes. Luckily I didn't need to. This cop was not so lucky.

[Joanne98]

51. The article didn't say anything about a police car!

[aikoaiko]

57. "The officer stated she was extremely combative and he was unable to get her into the patrol car,"

[Joanne98]

67. I didn't see that. But that still doesn't make cussing against the law!

[aikoaiko]

73. cussing isn't against the law.

but it can be disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace.

Honestly, if some teen was cussing up a storm and little kids were around, as the paper stated, I would want the police officer to ask the teen to keep it down and enforce his request.

[Eric J in MN]

107. It's unclear if the writer means a black-and-white car or just...

...the car he happeneded to be patrolling in while off-duty.

[DemBones DemBones]

166. People can buy old police cars and fix them up to

look like they're still police cars. And maybe she didn't see the car until he handcuffed and tased her.

She gave him a hard time but he instigated it and made her behavior escalate.

[immoderate]

177. Some police forces give their cars to officers ful time.

They do it down here in south Florida. The cop rides to and from work in it and it sits in his or her driveway when they are off duty.

--IMM

[Goblinmonger]

96. So ask to see his ID

Tell him you are going to use your cell phone to call the police station and verify who he is. I imagine he would be fine with either of those options.

Punching him in the face is not the correct sequence of events.

[seabeyond]

105. do you imagine that. like i imagine when she turns to walk away

he would allow it. event over. instead he stopped her and "touched" her.... why? i imagine she didnt feel he had the right. not too clear in the article why he took it beyond, once she was walking away. and she didnt punch him. she tried. all the while listening to people defending this saying she punched him. i could imagine with her stature and experience, and a cop, how she could do it. well, it sounds like she didnt do it. sounds like it can be construed that any kinds of hands off me police is a tried to punch. like the cops wouldnt lie to try and cover their ass for tasering a 14 yr old girl.

[Goblinmonger]

118. Since we are "imagining"

He tells her to knock it off (which I agree with). She turns to leave and says that he is a fucking pig and can go fuck himself if he thinks she is going to listen to some no-dick asshole like that. He touches her arm to get her to stop so he can make it clear that she can't be doing that around kids and she tries to punch him in the face. I don't have much sympathy for the kid in that scenario.

And, again, we don't know enough to make a clear judgement on this issue.

[RaleighNCDUer]

111. If you really expect a rational reaction from a pissed off 14 year old

you don't know kids.

The cop, as a professional, should have known better, and known how to deal with it.

A kid that is swearing as she walks away

IS A KID THAT IS WALKING AWAY.

[Goblinmonger]

120. And is a kid that is continuing

to commit disorderly conduct and won't stop. He was right to tell her to stop swearing a blue streak around young kids. I don't think that is unreasonable.

[DemBones DemBones]

170. Amen to that. A prudent cop would have let her walk away.

So she was swearing. Big deal. I'll bet he's been sworn at before by bigger and older males and didn't try such stuff with them.

[Sugar Smack]

228. She's a fourteen year old KID! What's wrong is that this adult cop's ego

sped ahead to having the last word and felling a juvenile girl. I read what you posted about the girl causing harm to herself by struggle. And what her foster mom said. But there is NO excuse, NONE, to quell the girl's struggle with a taser! And NO, I wasn't there. And still, there is no excuse to use a taser on an unruly 14 year-old girl. Or boy.

[Goblinmonger]

297. So if she is hitting the cop, hitting the car

and will not stop the struggle, what is the male cop to do? He could use pain to subdue her but that might very easily result in a broken bone, dislocated shoulder, torn rotator cuff, or all of the above. Collective heads at DU would explode if that had happened. The tasering stopped the struggle which might have injured her, the cop, or both without her having the physical injuries, or others, listed above.

Could the cop have been a prick? Yes. But the point is that WE DON'T KNOW ENOUGH and people here are ready to find the cop guilty of crimes against humanity when there are plenty or scenarios that make what he did just fine.

[Evoman]

310. He should have uncuffed her and let her go.

[Goblinmonger]

312. If she were calm

I would agree with you. What we know at this point is that she was not. Uncuffing her seems to be a road to even more problems if she was that abusive.

[Evoman]

309. Some stranger GRABS me, on HALLOWEEN, and I, as a good, responsible citizen,

would have had a lot more force behind the punch. Grab my little sister, and I'd probably be sitting behind bars.

That cop should have been smarter...he's lucky it was just a 14 year old girl.

[NOLALady]

317. My bet

he would not have behaved that way if it wasn't a girl.

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. She was walking away when he stopped her.

The incident was over. He escalated because being cussed at by a little girl threatened his manhood and authority.

That type of person should never be a cop to begin with.

[aikoaiko]

46. Its not clear, but it also said she was continuing her tirade possible as she walked away.

The incident may not have been over, but the paper isn't clear.

[DemBones DemBones]

169. Maybe you'll understand what NCEvilDUer said:

"If you really expect a rational reaction from a pissed off 14 year old

you don't know kids."

"The cop, as a professional, should have known better, and known how to deal with it."

"A kid that is swearing as she walks away

IS A KID THAT IS WALKING AWAY."


My take is that the cop wanted to prove his manhood because it pissed him off that the girl was swearing as she walked away.

She walked away just as he told her to and then he grabbed her and escalated the situation.

You should really go do volunteer work with kids in foster homes, who have often been abused, abandoned, and generally given the shit end of the stick, let them tell you about their lives.

I don't doubt she was out of control, I have seen plenty of fights between teenaged girls and they are worse than fights between boys. But she was walking away until he grabbed her and he is supposed to be an adult and a professional law enforcement officer trained to deal with unruly people without harming them.

As a teacher, I couldn't have laid a hand on her without possible disciplinary repercussions and when kids pitched fits in class or in the hall, I didn't have hand cuffs or a taser so I had to talk to them. Talking to kids often works well. In GA, by the way, it is against the law to paddle students, which is non-lethal, but cops can taser kids. It's not logical.

[MadHound]

75. Too bad that the cop didn't read the Constitution

And realize that the girl has the right to free speech. More than one case involving cussing and free speech has reached the Supreme Court, and in every case, such personal speech was deemed to be allowable under the First Amendment.

Sorry, but you can't bust anybody for cussing on the street, even if you try to sweep it under the rubric of disorderly conduct.

[Goblinmonger]

127. See post 112

profanity in the presence of someone under 14 is disorderly conduct in Georgia. The SCOTUS has made it pretty clear that minors can and should be protected from indecent speech (can't remember the case off the top of my head but it was about 900 sex phone number advertisements).

[Deja Q]

131. I WHOLLY agree. We think what happened was nasty, but consider our past:

When children grew up in the 1950s, if they chewed bubble gum in class, had a shoelace undone, talked out of turn (never mind swearing, which was not tolerated at the time), they got their wrist slapped with a ruler, paddling, or other form of punishment.

School uniforms were required too.

Kids of today have it very damn good, if I may say so myself... a pity our schools won't even teach what used to happen over those little actions that really were harmless.

[seabeyond]

132. they only get their ass tasered. so much better. yup. and lets see how this board

embraces spanking as discipline?

[Deja Q]

134. No. What I am saying is,

Let's look at the past, and then the present, see how things have changed, and if we truly give a damn reassess ourselves and our future.

Tasering may have been too convenient or going too far, but don't expect me to defend the "little girl" at all. Such swearing happened when I was that age (mid-1980s) and I found it sickening. Usually by thugs or thug-wannabes...

I hear it all the time today, by more than just a gaggle of thuggy losers, and it's beyond deplorable. There IS a problem with what is defined as acceptable behavior by children that did not used to exist.

Plus, I've debated in the "spanking threads" and I ain't talkin' about the ones in the Lounge. I am for spanking, within reason, for just due circumstances.

BTW: I was not an eyewitness to the event, so I cannot and will not assume what was said in that article was 100% accurate. Maybe it was, but if the girl wasn't so unruly, she wouldn't have been tasered. And children of previous generations got batted around for offenses that really were nothing by comparison. Chewing gum vs screaming "fuck you pig" or whatever it was she'd said.

[DemBones DemBones]

171. Um, I actually grew up in the Fifties, and what you said

was not true of any of the 17 schools I attended, except that high school students were paddled, but only boys. Boys were also allowed to smoke while girls weren't so I guess that was a fair trade off; they got to smoke but if they got in big trouble, they got a couple of licks. There weren't that many paddlings.

I never wore a school uniform and never saw a teacher slap a kid's wrist with a ruler.

Seventeen schools in seven states and one foreign country; counting up all the teachers would take me too long but it was far more than 17 since we changed classes started in 7th grade.

The main method of punishment was to make us write "I will not talk in class" or "I will not chew gum in class" 100 times or more.

[NOLALady]

234. Well, I also grew up in the '50s

We had to wear uniforms and we were paddled in Grammar School but not in High School. I can't remember if they were paddled for chewing gum, but I was almost paddled once. We were required to walk to the corner in a line at school's end. I was sick one day and I saw my neighbor's car (he was picking up his kid) and ran to the car. The nuns didn't know I was sick, (that I stayed out a few days should have given them a clue). They were waiting for me with that damn paddle when I returned to school. I ran out of the office and ran all the way home. My Mom had to go to the School to clear things up.
They were ready to beat me because I "broke line" about 10 feet from the corner!

Those nuns instilled in me a real love and respect for authority. :sarcasm:

[mudesi]

141. WHAT LAW DID SHE BREAK?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You conservatives are frustrating me.

[tammywammy]

143. See post 112

[Goblinmonger]

147. Oh please

THAT'S the best you got. Call me a conservative for thinking we don't know everything and possibly considering that the cop wasn't in the wrong. Knee-jerk much?

[ellisonz]

156. How about just another fucking pig?

Don't tase me bro:evilgrin:

[DemBones DemBones]

163. Kids in foster care have often been bounced around from home to home

for years and have behavioral problems that are quite understandable. Some foster parents only take in kids for the money the state pays them and some are abusive, including sexually abusing children. If you had put up with years of shit as she may have, you might have reacted the same way she did.

Teach public school for a few years and learn about how many parents don't care about their kids or are abusing them.

[R_M]

201. I agree with you one hundred percent.

[seabeyond]

203. this is what gets me with the few arrogant poster going after this girl for cussing

all one has to do is look at all the societal breakdowns to understand why she may be where she is at and instead of an anger at her, is a sadness that she was raised in a way to be there. my kids, with all the cussing all around, tv, music, adults, kids.... dont. they dont like it. well, youngest really likes it he just knows he is not allowed. anyway... it is the time and connected and nurturing that my kids have had for their 12 and 10 yrs of their lives. not all kids get that and instead of being mad, i am sad for that child. instead of striking out and treating her as animal, tasering her to humiliation where she no longer has control over physical self and vulnerable to all.... is sick.

instead the cops reinforced her view of her sick world she is in

[R_M]

205. Not only did they demean the girl further, but they...

also helped to re-enforce the negative image sticks to police these days.

[Fleshdancer]

229. yep. I assume her friends stood around and watched the whole thing

and who knows how many other kids witnessed this as well. The actions of one stupid officer makes it that much harder for all the other officers because people don't trust them. Tasering a trick-or-treater? As a parent, how do you explain to a child that witnessed this that they should still trust the police?

[Joanne98]

27. Man tasered to death while looking for his mother!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071103.BCTASER03/TPStory/National
VANCOUVER -- Deaths, arrests and other emergencies are routine events at Vancouver International Airport, a small city that has a life of its own, but when Paul Levy's BlackBerry buzzed at 2 a.m. one recent Sunday morning, YVR's vice-president of operations was faced with an unprecedented crisis.

Robert Dziekanski, a Polish immigrant who spoke no English, had died moments after being taser-shocked by the RCMP in the international arrivals terminal, where he had spent nearly 10 hours wandering alone in a secure area while his mother waited nearby.

"We realized obviously when I got the message this is something out of the ordinary. I've certainly never experienced this in the time I've been here and I've been here 16 years," said Mr. Levy, who about once a month is notified of a death at the airport, which handles more than 17 million travellers a year.

But the taser death of a passenger who apparently had grown frantic after failing to find his mother was unheard of.

Mr. Levy was soon on the phone to Larry Berg, CEO of the Vancouver Airport Authority, and they talked back and forth throughout the day before gathering for a meeting early Monday morning.

By then the story had triggered a coroner's inquest, an RCMP investigation, and an emotional public debate that was raising questions not just about the RCMP's use of tasers, but also about internal operations at YVR.

Yesterday, for the first time since Mr. Dziekanski's death three weeks ago, airport officials spoke publicly about the incident, which has left them and their employees shaken.

"I think people are quite distraught about this and quite concerned. You know there is a lot of introspection going on around this - myself included - because no CEO wants this to happen on his or her watch," said Mr. Berg, who with Mr. Levy has walked through Mr. Dziekanski's final hours.

"We're all very disturbed by this incident out here at YVR and feel a good deal of remorse for the mother who's obviously suffering through this process. It's any parent's worst nightmare."

Mr. Berg said when officials first heard of the incident, "We were shocked and had a lot of questions. Why? What happened? So you start on that process ... and it takes days for this to start to become clear."

Mr. Berg said ...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071103.BCTASER03/TPStory/National

[seabeyond]

33. i went back looking for this thread, because not enough are bothered with this death

when in this trick or treat tasering thread. thank you

[Joanne98]

52. You're welcome seabeyond and fell free to add any other taser stories!

God only knows there are enough of them in the news!

[seabeyond]

60. child (6,7?)at school that cant be controlled by a bunch of adults, 26 yr old mothers in jammies

taking kids to school stopped for speeding and not wanting to get out of car cause she isnt dressed. all very good reasons to tasers someones ass i am sure. and absolute last resort seeing how our cops are so inadaquit at reasoning or resolving.

[rAVES]

45. He needs a tazer to his balls...

[Deja Q]

135. That's not fair! Two things would have to happen first:

1. He'd have to cuss and swear, preferably as an unruly child

2. The girl would have to have balls. If "an eye for an eye" is fair, you should advocate tasering him in the same spot he had tasered her. Unless there's something the article didn't bother to tell us, I highly doubt she's got a pair of testicles looking for a quick charge.

[RaleighNCDUer]

281. I think it is pretty well established that the cop didn't have any balls

so I assume the poster was speaking metaphorically.

[Joanne98]

64. Here's a book that gets to the root of the taser problem!!!

http://www.amazon.com/American-Methods-Torture-Logic-Domination/dp/0896087530

American Methods: Torture And the Logic of Domination

In this important book American journalist Kristian Williams shows how the US state has institutionalised torture. President Bush asserted in February 2002, "None of the provisions of Geneva apply to our conflict with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan or elsewhere throughout the world." As the Schlesinger Report concluded, this Presidential ruling allowed US forces to increase their use of illegal interrogation techniques.

So US police, military and prison guards routinely treat detainees brutally. The repulsive abuses at Abu Ghraib are typical, not aberrant. There have been more than 400 reports of abuse in US detention camps in Afghanistan, Guantanamo and Iraq, and a hundred inquiries have been launched. There were 13 officially acknowledged murders at detention camps between January 2002 and March 2005.

The US state, with Labour's connivance, has consistently used `extraordinary rendition', kidnapping people and then transferring them to other states for torture. For example, the CIA illegally sent suspected al-Qaeda trainer Ibn al-Libi to Cairo for torture, where he apparently confessed that Iraq had trained al-Qaeda members to make bombs. Bush then publicised this confession, as did Colin Powell to the UN, even though the Defense Intelligence Agency had already warned them that the confession was unreliable.

Williams details torture by the US military and the US police, by US allies overseas, and in US prisons, jails and detention facilities in the USA and abroad. The US state uses torture methods like stun guns, stun belts, pepper sprays, restraints, rape and the threat of rape, `supermax facilities' and solitary confinement. The US state promotes torture in its training programmes, for example in the `Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation', formerly called the School of the Americas.

Williams reveals the US state as a machine of coercion, of organised violence - represented by armed bodies of men, the police, armed services, prisons - designed to subjugate the will of others by force. Williams proves that "The product of torture is not truth, but terror. Its strategy is not that of objective investigation, but of political intimidation."
http://www.amazon.com/American-Methods-Torture-Logic-Domination/dp/0896087530

He wrote another good one too..
Our Enemy in Blue. Police and Power in America
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Enemies-Blue-Police-America/dp/0896087719/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b/104-4866192-1627122

[Kurovski]

80. Is there a law against swearing in that area?

Or was the officer playing "nanny", or "big bro"?

Should a cop who is merely scolding just back down when his finger-wagging fails? If the bratty, foul-mouthed 14 year-old broke no law with her language, the cop should have had his say, and then let it go when the little shit had no plans to stop swearing.

[seabeyond]

81. per poster on this thread, cause she would want WANT the cop make her stop

regardless of if the girl is breaking the law. then this poster will defend the cop to hell and high water about people following law????

[Kurovski]

82. The tasering crap is way out of control.

BushCo must love it though, fond as they are of torture in general.

The message is "You never, ever know when we'll taser yer ass, so pipe down and behave." It's about control. It spreads more fear, or worry at any rate.

[seabeyond]

87. and it is so obvious. written clearly for us to see. yet still there are those that support it

because they are just such damn cowards and impotent. i will be the one tasered and zapped because i will be the one that dares to not be intimidated. hold me for ten hours in an airport, i will dare to get mad. detain or arrest me because i said shit and i will dare to be mad. we are not allowed to be mad. we must submit. and shame on those that are allowing this to be in our society.

sometimes we have to allow for the kid or adult that cusses, and let it go... may not like it or want it, nor do i like the fundamentalist christian to hold up signs fags in hell, ... but we cannot taser to control our people for our desired behavior. i am just not good enough to live in the perfection some profess.

[slackmaster]

90. Is being out of control a function of how often something appears in the media?

Or is it based on how many abuses of it you see on YouTube?

[Kurovski]

99. It's the way it's used.

The circumstances. Seems to be folks with bad judgment using it in non-life threatening situations.

The ramifications are grotesque.

[slackmaster]

182. But how much do you really know about the manner in which it is used?

Sure, you hear about improper uses because they make news. But do you have any visibility into how often they are used for legitimate, lawful purposes; especially as an alternative to more harmful weapons like guns?

[Basileus Basileon]

89. Okay, clearly the problem is

both parties are horribly stupid.

The cop asked the girl to stop swearing around children. The girl flies off the handle and starts cursing in the cop's face. The cop tells her to stop or she'll get charged with disorderly conduct. She gives him a "fuck you" and turns away, complying with his demand to stop harassing him. So far, everything's okay.

Now, we have Big Mistake #1: Cop tells her to stop and "touches her arm." What the hell? The situation was over. Big man just couldn't bear to have a little girl blow him off.

Next, we have Big Mistake #2. Girl tries to punch cop. What the hell? Punching a cop never works out for you. That gives him carte blanche to do whatever he decides is necessary to subdue you. You have just authorized him to hurt you. Don't be retarded. Don't punch cops.

Cop attempts to subdue girl. Then comes Big Mistake #3: Girl resists arrest. What the hell? When a cop wants you to get in the car, you have to get in the motherfucking car. Failure to do so will result in your ass being handcuffed and stuffed in the car in a less-than-pleasant manner. Save yourself a whole fucking lot of trouble and get in the damn car.

Finally, we have Big Mistake #4: The fucking Taser. What. The. Fuck. I've defended taser use before, but this is retarded. She's a 14-year-old girl. Your life was not in danger; you were not threatened. You just didn't want to have to deal with her any more and zapped her? Turn in your badge; you're too dangerous to be a cop.

[seabeyond]

95. thank you

and the reason i say this is i believe you are the one i was talking to in the microwave thread? i am thinking. if i am wrong, ignore me. thank you, because i can respect a person that sees the cop wont abuse a weapon, but when there is a case of it, you recognize and acknowledge. THAT means more to me than anything. because that is the only way i believe we as a society are going to get a handle on this. and more than anything, i simply do not want these "tools" abused by the cops. i am not suggesting getting rid of them, unless they are unable to gain control of the taser situation. if they cannot, then the only answer is to remove them from the force.

it will be people who support the use, but refuse the abuse, that will get the cops in line here. per your post. not making excuse for the cops who tasered this girl.

and i agree with your breakdown on the event.

[seabeyond]

188. another example. the problem grows. the higher ups support this behavior

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2202021&mesg_id=2202021

this is what loses the support from the ordinary citizens that the police need, but no longer have. when we law abiding citizens fear the very people that are hired and trained to keep us safe. they must have rules for our protection. those rules no longer hold, leaving us feeling vulnerable. it is a given. it is being created by the very people yelling at us to support. and it will be a nightmare when it is all said and done. or we can recognize and put boundaries, lines not to be crossed, for all of our protection

[R_M]

194. Everyone needs to learn to defend themselves.

I did so and still do.

[seabeyond]

101. she tried to punch, nowhere stating she did punch him. he handcuffed her for the punch

no need for the tasering for trying to punch him. and there were two cops.

btw, the kid was with a group of friends, cussing.... not cussing at anyone. and a kid could pick up on the cussing hence the cop telling her to stop. as a parent of little ones, i tell kids to ignore the cussing and get on with life, a persons choice to cuss or not... certainly dont think a person should be arrested for it. further, the person saying she said fuck you to the cop and walked away didnt read it in that article. it states cop told her to stop, she turned and walked away. he stopped her, and touched (what grabbed her arm, i would be pissed) and she turned to try and punch.

but keep defending tasering a 14 yr old....

[Goblinmonger]

145. Man you are frustrating to have a discussion with

First you say that he told her to go and then stopped her.
I showed that the article didn't say he told her to go and she left when he didn't tell her she could leave.
Then you claim that I am saying she has to submit to the will of the cops forever and always because I said the cop was justified in telling her she couldn't go when I was just responding to your mis-statement of the article.
Now you are mocking me because I provided a scenario (after you provided one) about what could have happened (of course I have also said about 6 times that we don't know enough to make a judgement) with her saying "fuck you" to the cop and, correctly, saying that I "didn't read it in the article." Then, 17 words later, you say that the cop "grabbed her arm." Where do you get that? The article never said that. It said he "touched her arm." Not grabbed. If you are going to call me out (when I admit that we don't know everything) at least have the decency to not make shit up yourself while you are doing it and not claim that you don't know everything.

[RaleighNCDUer]

282. You do understand that the article was written by someone who

wasn't there, don't you?

If the article says the cop 'touched her arm', it's because the cop told the reporter that he 'touched her arm'. Every detail is obviously being told from the cop's perspective, and none of it from the kid's perspective. You think the cop would cop to having 'grabbed her arm'?

[seabeyond]

284. that is all an obvious, and i would have told the poster, but man,

he sure is hard to have a discussion with, wink.

[Goblinmonger]

290. Which is why I have said, probably 10 times in this thread,

that we don't have enough information.

But you did read the whole article and know that the reporter also quotes the mother of the child so the "touched her arm" may have come from the mom and not the cop. But of course you "know" that isn't the case.

My whole point in this thread has been to point out that we shouldn't kill this cop yet when we don't know the whole story and there are plenty of scenarios where what he did is not a bad thing.

[Eric J in MN]

104. No names of the cops. Some accountability. NT

NT

[Goblinmonger]

112. Her swearing was illegal

according to Georgia law (pretty sure this is common verbage in most states--I know it is in Wisconsin). Disorderly conduct is:

2-33 (4) Without provocation, uses obscene and vulgar or
2-34 profane language in the presence of or by telephone to a
2-35 person under the age of 14 years which threatens an
2-36 immediate breach of the peace.

http://wwww.legis.state.ga.us/legis/1995_96/leg/fulltext/sb420.htm

[Deja Q]

133. But it was 'free speech'

I disagree that she was exhibiting free speech. She was under 18. Children didn't used to have so many "rights"...

[BlackVelvet04]

155. Who gives a fuck?........

seriously, what if she had died from the taser? It happens. Do we really want cops using what could be lethal force because a kid cusses? Some people like this cop need to get a life and quit making a federal case out of bullshit.

[MrMickeysMom]

191. So, how to define "fighting words" in Georgia...?

A person who commits any of the following acts commits a
1-20 misdemeanor:

1-21 (1) Without provocation, uses to or of another, in his
1-22 presence, opprobrious or abusive words which by their
1-23 very utterance tend to incite to an immediate breach of
1-24 the peace, that is to say, words which as a matter of
1-25 common knowledge and under ordinary circumstances will,
1-26 when used to or of another person in his presence,
1-27 naturally tend to provoke violent resentment, that is,
1-28 words commonly called 'fighting words';

Well, I suppose the response to my e-mail to the police chief in this matter provoked a few words that could insite a "fight".

Also, note the qualifier, "without provocation". Who provoked whom?

[Fleshdancer]

230. it isn't clear to me that she was in the presence of kids under 14 yrs old

it seems implied because it was Halloween night, but if she's 14 and hanging out with her friends, there is a possibility that everyone within earshot of her was 14 as well.

[RaleighNCDUer]

283. "...which threatens an immediate breach of the peace."

Read it yourself.

It is not the language, but the intent of the language that is the problem. If the language was not directed AT the kids, and there was no threat involved, then it was not 'disorderly conduct'.

[Goblinmonger]

298. So I should be able to stand on a public street

outside an elementary school during recess and yell about how fucking sick and tired I am of every fucking thing in the country and the cops can't do shit? Yeah, right.

[seabeyond]

300. we seem to have problems with our males throwing tantrums in school

and killing off numbers of kids. surely this would be an apples and oranges, as you have suggested in the argument.

a grown man flippin out in front of a school and a 14 yr old girl with friends, talking to the friends, on halloween night away from school

i would not be worried about my kids and others hearing the cussing. something i regularly have to deal with my kids. it is the world we live in. as a parent i take the responsiblity for my children. i would be concerned if you were going ot pull a gun and start shooting, then be the coward so many males are and shoot yourself.

not the same concern with the 14 yr old old cussin while talking to her friends

two totally different things

wouldnt you agree

[scarletwoman]

137. How much you wanna bet the 14-year old girl is black?

Because one thing I've noticed in all these stories over the past few years of "out of control" kids being brutalized by cops (4th graders being handcuffed for mouthing off in school, etc.) is that all these children are African American.

These children are being treated as though they are not human beings. There is something very sick and ugly going on with this kind of behavior on the part of "authority figures" toward these children. These children are being treated with utter contempt, and to lay the blame on the children for the outrageous behavior of the authority figures toward them is uttely contemptable.

:mad:
sw

[taterguy]

138. Andrew Meyer was black?

I did not know that

[scarletwoman]

142. Oh, bug off. He wasn't a little kid either.

[R_M]

196. Skin color is irrelevant. It's the act that matters.

The police were dead wrong to use such force.

[scarletwoman]

209. It's not irrelevent when black kids (& adults) are more likely to be suject to abusive police action

Of course the police were dead wrong. What I'm saying is that there appears to be a pattern of these "dead wrong" police actions happening to black children specifically.

There have been several stories over the past year of young children being handcuffed, arrested, "subdued", etc.; and one thing these stories have in common is that these have all been black children.

The larger point is, when authoritarianism runs rampant -- which is what we are witnessing with the increase of the indiscriminate use of tasers -- those who are members of "out" groups are victimized first.

Elsewhere in GD is a thread about a man who was tasered by cops in his own home while asleep on his couch. That he was a black man comes as no surprise.

sw

[R_M]

212. I agree that racial profilng is wrong.

[JVS]

146. YAHOOO!

[taterguy]

157. Why are you cheering about a young child being tortured?

Shame
Shame
Shame

[JVS]

232. Because she was a candy-seeker in the same way Andrew Meyer was an attention-seeker

;-)

[Catherine Vincent]

152. I hope his buddies at the Police Station are giving him a hard time for

tasering a 14 year old girl that was trick or treating.

Moron!

[John Kerry VonErich]

167. Lets clear the air here.

1. He patrols the area maybe because of Neighborhood Watch?!?

2. He may have been off duty, but when you are a cop, you are on duty 24/7. Even if you are off the clock.

3. If you think she did nothing wrong, check the city's ordinences. More than likely her loud cursing could be warrented as disturbing the peace.

4 She was tazered because because she kept resisting. The punch indicates she poses a possible threat. I know, I am gonna get flamed for this, but don't underestimate teenagers. They can be quite the weasles and she may go for his gun, taser, or pepperspray.

So based upon what I have read in the piece. The cop was in the right on this one.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Kerry VonErich]

238. I read enough OMC posts to know this is coming.

nt

[Name removed]

249. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemBones DemBones]

174. No way. Professionals don't do those things to kids.

She was cussing on Halloween night so I hardly think she was disturbing the peace with all the other trick or treaters running around.

I taught high school in Appalachia and I didn't get to use a taser, not that I would have wanted to. I had many behavior disordered kids in my classes and I just had to deal with them by talking to them.

The girl was walking away, as directed, when he grabbed her and then she lost it. He deliberately escalated the conflict instead of letting her go.

We are not a police state, at least not yet.

Tasers should be banned. Too many cops have itchy taser fingers.

[John Kerry VonErich]

237. Depending on the definition in the ordenance.

The reason he grabbed her arm and told her to stop is standard precedure. They must have a verbal comply to the officer's command, hence she just walked away after without compliance. A yes will do and she would've gotten out of trouble.

Would you rather be tasered or shot?

[merh]

180. excessive use of force

misdemeanor violations of city ordinances do not pose safety threats or risk of harm that require the use of force to subdue.

Cops CANNOT USE FORCE to apprehend suspected misdemeanor violators.

You are wrong.

[John Kerry VonErich]

239. Even if the assailant assaults an officer with a punch?

The cussing didn't get her arrested, just warned. Her rage did and she was charged with obstruction and disorderly conduct. And she wouldn't stop, posing a danger to both herself and the officer, yes the officer. Part of the officer's duty is that if the assailant is out of control, consider it a danger no matter what. That is fact.

[merh]

242. Nope, those are misdemeanor charges

there is no assault of an officer or other felony charge.

Use of excessive force to subdue a teen, use of a taser to apprehend a misdemeanor arrestee, is a sign of poor training. There were other ways to subdue her that did not require the use of a weapon.

If you are LEO and you think this is justified, then you too have had piss poor training. If you are civilian, just goes to show what you don't know and what you will allow be done to you in like circumstances.

Either way, how pathetic for you.

[John Kerry VonErich]

244. She was out of control

1. I mistook your post as you were just refering to her cussing as a misdemenor only. Sorry about the confusion.

2. I am not a LEO, but have an uncle that is (former president of his chapter's FOP) and he agrees that it had to be done. She wasn't injured, and the parents is looking like she is not going to file a complaint. Although she did politly said it could've been handled better.

[merh]

255. Then your uncle has had piss poor training.

There is no 14 year old so out of control that the use of taser is warranted to subdue her, if she were so out of control, she would have been charged with a felony offense.

Maybe the foster mother is as ill informed as you and your uncle.

[John Kerry VonErich]

261. You be surprised

One thing I know about police training, coming from my uncle, is never underestimate any assailant. No matter how old the person is.

[seabeyond]

264. ergo, treat us all like criminals and animals. yes, i know

this is one of the issues that is causing so many problems. a hard one to address from many angles, but one we must do something about. because the loss of support police are getting from the middle class, law abiding people will only hurt them. i would like them to see this before it is too late. but if we keep arrogantly denying a problem, justifying, validating, allowing misconduct on the police side, at all cost protect them, then we can never hope to address the issues. we can start by not seeing people like me, that speak out against abuse as being the enemy

bet that one is too hard for you and yours.

[John Kerry VonErich]

265. Now you are treating this like Rodney King

If you think you way of enforcement is better, then be a cop. See if it works. I won't deny that there are bad cops out there, I just said that this one blotter was justified IMO and thats it.

[seabeyond]

267. that is the mature argument i am looking for. so cause i have no desire

to be a cop, i must keep my mouth shut? thinkin not.

and right there, you think it is justified in you opinion. nothing else need be said.

[John Kerry VonErich]

277. From what was written...

yes on that, unless new detail emerge. At least lets be open for more details.

[seabeyond]

278. two male cops with a handcuffed 14 yr old girl. you cannot convince me

that there was any reason for tasering,.... i just do not see how anything could suggest these two males could not handle this girl. i think the difference in the mindset may be, i am so appalled at the idea of being tasered. the pain. the loss of control. the humiliation. the vulnerability is so beyond my grasp of what is acceptable. i cannot ever imagine being in a position where a taser would not be anything but the hugest of deal.

and it feels to me like you dont feel any of those things with the idea of being tasered.

[merh]

266. Again, your uncle has had piss poor training

if he thinks it is appropriate to taze a 14 year old girl whose only crimes were cussing and disorderly conduct and failure to obey an off duty cop.

[seabeyond]

270. but he thinks it is justified. he thinks it is the right thing to do. how do you

argue compassion. it is what we see we cannot do with the republicans on torture, gay rights ect... you cannot argue that someone feels compassion towards another. that girl was no threat to two grown men. but they just do not see that it is a big deal to taser another human being. i cannot see it as anything but a big deal. but if a person cannot see that, then to them it is perfectly ok to do.

[merh]

280. Your uncle is wrong and is teaching you bad things, okay.

There are other ways to subdue folks, especially 14 year olds.

And btw, the girl was handcuffed, so she was subdued.

A Gwinnett County police officer was "forced" to user a Taser on a handcuffed 14-year-old girl who became unruly while trick-or-treating on Halloween night, police said Friday.

Your uncle is wrong, it was not justified.

[MrMickeysMom]

189. Yep, you're gonna get flamed for this...

... and for making an ASS out of U and ME.

The fact is, you and I know that 14 year old girls who verbalize (city ordinance or not) don't escalate their aggression unless provoked. If she disturbed the peace, where was the complaint coming from? I didn't read about anyone in the neighborhood complaining and calling the cops, pal.

[John Kerry VonErich]

241. You failed to notice he was off duty when he arrested her.

He caught her in the act patrolling the neighborhood (hence the neighborhood watch scenerio), and just told her to stop, and she failed to agknowledge verbally so he had to get her attention by touching her arm. And she threw a punch, which got her arrested.

And before you say this was a wrongful arrest, as I said in my previous post that even if the officer is off duty, he is still on duty. One of the most common of reprimands in the police business is when a crime is commit and an off duty officer witnesses it, and he fails to do something about it.

[MrMickeysMom]

251. This has absolutely nothing to do with the taser event decision

The fact you infer that this is what a citizen should do -carry a taser while not punching into the precinct, but acting like a citizen on patrol with the neighborhood watch- gives me the willies. He has the privilege of deciding to use potential deadly force while not on duty. This is seriously FUCKED UP.

Have you ever been zapped? Would you know what to do if the result of your zap's voltage caused ventricular fibrillation during a re polarization period of the heart? So, I guess then, he would have to have time to do CPR while calling back-up on the bitch, now that she was properly subdued. Oh, I'm sorry, he didn't have his radio for back-up, and, by the way, he's not on duty. He was just patrolling the neighborhood as John Q Citizen... Sounds more like John Q. "I got a hard on to enforce the law, but I can't get overtime for it" Citizen.

I'd rather he'd cuffed her then pushed her to the ground (since she hit a police officer, even unknowingly, this would have at least been marginally acceptable in my book). He carries a fucking taser while not at work. Are you even aware of what you are not bothering to question here?

[John Kerry VonErich]

271. Tasers are legal

Anyone can carry one.

And to answer your question, what's there to question? I gave my opinion from what I had read in the article. We don't know the ENTIRE details yet and if it is clearly and LEGALLY proven the cop was in the wrong, then pass me the Heinz 57. Done that before, and have no problem eating my words again.

[MrMickeysMom]

273. Fair enough

Meanwhile, I'll have to see about how easy it is to carry a taser in public while we all update our CPR certifications.

[scarletwoman]

216. She was ALREADY HANDCUFFED when the cop tasered her!

Read the article, she was already restrained! This was NOT a matter of the cop being in danger of her "go(ing) for his gun, taser, or pepperspray".

She was tasered because the COP was out of control, it was the COP that escalated the situation.

[John Kerry VonErich]

243. Wrong

She was still resisting, and she could escape (and it does happen, especially if there was only one cop restraining.) He did what he had to do.

[seabeyond]

245. two male cops with a handcuffed girl.... now i really am lmao at you

pathetic attempt in justifying the MENS behavior. geez us.... if the two male cops really have so little control over one handcuffed girl, we are all in a world of hurt.

[John Kerry VonErich]

246. Where the hell did you get 2 from?

nt

[seabeyond]

248. here you go

That's when police say the girl turned and tried to punch the officer in the face. The officer used physical force to subdue and handcuff her with the help of another officer, but the girl continued to fight, Spellman said

[scarletwoman]

254. No, YOU'RE wrong. Read the first sentence of the news article at the OP's link:

A Gwinnett County police officer was "forced" to use a Taser on a handcuffed 14-year-old girl...

(my emphasis)

I don't know what kind of person thinks it's okay to taser a 14 year old kid whose hands are bound, but it's certainly no one that I would want in a position of authority.

And remember, after the initial encounter she had turned and starting walking away, it was the COP that escalated things.

sw

[John Kerry VonErich]

262. You can still escape even if you are cuffed.

How did the cop escalate? He touched her shoulder, from what the article says.

[scarletwoman]

269. He could have just let her walk away, as she was doing.

She was already in the fucking cop car when he tased her!!! Read the damn article!

Why should this kid have been treated like a fucking criminal in first place? So what, she had a potty mouth! Was she robbing a liquor store? Was she pointing a gun at anybody? Was she beating up old ladies?

No, she was "cussing"! So fucking what? For that she deserves to be brutalized and traumatized and physically endangered? You think kids should be picked up off the street, handcuffed, thrown into police cars and tasered for bad language??? What the hell is wrong with you anyway? Why are you defending this bullshit?

[seabeyond]

272. she can still escape from TWO GROWN MALES in handcuffs. how little the poster

thinks of our cops today. this argument to me is the most comical of his. my males in my family would be thoroughly offended for all of their gender if jk were to suggest two grown men could not handle a 14 yr old girl in cuffs.

[scarletwoman]

276. I'm just fucking outraged at the kind of mindset that thinks ANY of this could POSSIBLY be justified

I mean, what the hell?!?! You've got to be a real asshole control freak to think that it's okay for some jerkoff cop to just come along and hassle some kid just because she's "cussing". That cop had to have had a hair up his ass to begin with, and so he goes and takes out on a 14 year old girl.

Fuck that asshole cop, and fuck all the assholes trying make lame excuses for him being an asshole.

:grr:

sw

[John Kerry VonErich]

274. From what was said in the article

she was tasered for being physically out of control, and was still out of control during the arrest. Based on what I read she threw a punch at the cop, that would've been an assault charge (either she might have missed or she was lucky he didn't charge her with that). If she was in the car and was tasered, she might have attempted to kick the glass out. We don't know yet, just giving an opinion based on what I have read. We don't know the entire details yet.

[scarletwoman]

279. I repeat. He could have just let her walk away as she was already doing.

HE chose to escalate it by going after her. HE's an out of control asshole, pulling his bully dominance crap on a 14 year old girl. There's absolutely NOTHING justifiable in his subsequent actions, because there's NOTHING justifiable in his going after her in the FIRST place.

[Bonobo]

172. "Since 2003, 3 people have died after stunned with Taser during a struggle with Gwinnett police

I never even heard of that place and they have killed THREE people with tasers since 2003!

Wow.

[AX10]

192. Milford Connecticut (New Haven County) had no...

"in-custody" deaths between 1972 and 2006. They implemented tasers in 2006, which ended their record (a man died in their custody of being "tased".
It is an absolute crock of shit that any weapon can be "non-leathal". Notice how most police departments are calling their weapons "tools" now. It's a little way of making use of force appear to be less serious.

[seabeyond]

193. "any weapon can be "non-leathal"... my hubby is republican, support police

knows weapons, all that macho man stuff. anyway, after interacting with some males on this and the microwave zapper thread i wanted his opinion on the taser incidences. told him about man in airport ten hours. asked, how long before i would have been "angry, frustrated". he laughed. he knows i am right up there to be the one tasered. i am not intimidated. i will not lower my eyes and submit.

talking about the tasre and use, and how they said it would be used that is what he says. it is a weapon. it can kill. all weapons can kill. there is NO non lethal weapon.

point being, the pacifist like me will hear non weapon and believe cause hey i dont know shit about killing and hurting others. but.... all these spouting off to me nonlethal seem to be the ones that know the most the bullshit they are singing.

[R_M]

195. .....

Tasers are not fun to be hit with to start. I do own a gun (firearm) for protection. I am pro-gun, no apologies there either. I don't trust the government, especially those government mules with weapons.

[seabeyond]

197. he voted kerry in 2004. he has a sticker on his work folder

if you are not outraged, you dont know what is going on. he left the nra in late 1990's for something unethical that they did. he has sworn he will never vote for repug again, or at least until they clean up because of all the corruption, dishonesty, what they say about gays and their bigorty.

but.... you dont have to like my hubby. freedom is wonderful that way. and i will love him enough for both of us. wink.

[R_M]

200. I made that post because you made it sound like he was still...

a right wing Republican. I edited out the header in my first thread.
I still disagree with your husband being so pro-police though. No one should get special treatment.

[seabeyond]

202. this is a hard one for so many. but i am patient cause he has grown

so much since we have married. like so many of us, he was raised to respect police. this is horrible for him to see where they are going. lus it is easier for him to submit to authority than it is for me. characteristicly it is about nigh impossible for me. one of the reasons he married me i didnt put up with his mama shit where all the kids did and still do. the point being, he is still seeing it as a few bad apples instead of an attitude that police has created throughout their ranks. but.... i see on cops or like the threads on du the abuse and will be outraged, rant about it, put myself in the same place and let him see that, even though i am a very good person, law abiding for the most part and certainly not deserving of abuse.... i too could be the one zapped because of police attitude

i am working on it.

and he is working on it

[R_M]

204. I understand

:hug:

What does this mean: "didn't put up with his mama shit where all the kids did and still do."

[seabeyond]

206. lordy

the night he asked me to marry him was after i am ranting on the beach, who the hell does she think she is telling me what to do. friggin no one tells me what to do, not even my own mama. she still tells her 40 something year old kids how to wipe their butts and they are lawyers and doctors and prissy good. they submit. i do not. hubby loves it. sometimes even gets a little back bone

i was giving the example how not all people are confrontational like i and most people on this board are.

[R_M]

207. Mama's Boy. I see your from Texas.

I guess we use different terminology. That's o.k.

[seabeyond]

208. actually i am from calif. hubby a texan. i got stuck here.

but hubby promised no matter how long i lived here i would never be a texan. yeehaw

[MrMickeysMom]

181. I just e-mailed their Police Chief and this is the reply I JUST received!

I am not kidding... I sent an e-mail to Police Chief Charles Walters after reading this thread and linked story out of Atlanta. A very bubba- looking police chief's face appeared next to an e-mail link when subsequently Googling that county police website. Lo and behold is [e-mail]

Apparently, he's in good position to respond from his Blackberry this Sunday morn...

___________________________

Thank you for your meaningless uninformed opinion.
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld


----- Original Message -----
From: Lois Drumheller <[e-mail]>
To: Walters, Charles
Sent: Sun Nov 04 09:41:19 2007
Subject: Do you teach your officers how to "de-escalate" violence?

Dear Chief,

News gets around the internet easily these days, and I was just reading
about the 14 yr old who was overhead cursing among other children while
trick or treating in your area, resulting in an escalation of
aggression between officer and perp.

Do you see how that situation was escalated by what that officer did?
Have tasers have replaced honest police work?

I'll be watching Atlanta closely from my state of PA as I wonder which
MSA will become the first official police state. Sounds like you guys
are in the lead. A fourteen year old... are you proud of that? Sounds
pretty awful to me.

Lois Drumheller
Monroeville, PA

[AX10]

190. He's just another parasite "sucking off of the tit of the state"!

[riqster]

221. I always say, it starts at the top.

The chief treats the public with contempt. His subordinates follow his lead.

[seabeyond]

223. i agree. n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

247. That was his reply?

What an asshole.

[MrMickeysMom]

257. Yep, a real leader of the police force, that one...

Looks like a Bubba from Atlanta, too. No offense to other people named bubba living in Atlanta, but Jesus...

[jody]

253. Walters' reply makes sense to me given how little the public knows about the incident. n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

258. Well, it doesn't to me, given that my e-mail wasn't aggressive

... and the public was about as informed as it could be, given a foul mouthed 14 year old was cuffed and tasered. Unless you think the newspaper got it wrong and you know something personally, I'd say the public has acurate reporting.

[jody]

263. IMO you insulted the chief, "the first official police state. Sounds like you guys

are in the lead. A fourteen year old... are you proud of that? Sounds
pretty awful to me."

Have a nice evening. :hi:

[MrMickeysMom]

275. Sounds like a regular question for a police force who makes it routine to use them

How awful it is to ask questions, neh?

:hi:

[MrMickeysMom]

199. Got a comment for the police chief?

No? Well, that's cool, too. MMM

[e-mail]

[riqster]

227. My comment to the pig in question:

Chucky,



No wonder your officers have no respect for the public they are sworn to serve, as you clearly have none yourself. They learn contempt for the people from you, and then go out and abuse little girls. Cops like you are why so many people don't trust the police.

[Bonobo]

268. If anyone tasered my 14 y.o. daughter, I'd...

Well, I think you can guess. What about you?

[riqster]

285. I have 7 kids, ages 16-25

And I'd do the same.

[NOLALady]

286. Count me in.

[seabeyond]

287. i would have everyone in town hoppin

i know lots a lots of people

[seabeyond]

288. sheeeit, i would be doing it if it wasnt my kids and was someone

elses kid.

[Goblinmonger]

289. What if your 14 yo daughter

tried to punch a cop in the face?

[Gormy Cuss]

294. You mean if a private security guard tried to grab her and she swung at him?

I'd be proud of her for defending herself from an assault by a stranger.

[Goblinmonger]

299. No, a real live cop "touched her arm"

while having a discussion about her swearing in public. She then tried to punch a REAL cop in the face for that.

But, hey, make up whatever facts you what. All we know is what is in the story. Let's try to stick to that, huh?

[Gormy Cuss]

302. He was off duty. Was he wearing his uniform? Did he identify himself to her before he grabbed her?

Neither are in evidence in the story. What is in the details is that he was off duty and "patroling" a subdivision. That's working a paid private detail, same as any other security guard. There is no evidence that he identified himself as a sworn officer at the beginning of the incident.
Let's try to stick to the story, shall we?

When one has a heated confrontation with another person, turns away and then feels a "touch" on the arm from that person, the natural inclination is defensive. Swinging at someone to get them away from you, for example. Of course, describing it without context solely as her attempting to punch a cop in the face makes it sound quite different.

[seabeyond]

304. the punch could have been just as easily her swinging her arm up

to get him to NOT touch her anymore. there are moves all us female know. like when we saw bush go to massage the german pres, the way she shrugged her shoulders and raised her arms to get his hands off. universal. probably most all female have made that move. the creepy feel of hands on us we dont want. another is someone grabbin our arm and tighting muscle and lifting arm up and away from touch. natural.

or an automatic swing

i can see all of those things.

but.... since we are going off the story, and this was the account of the off duty cop i have not brought this up, though it is an absolute possibility.

not to mention a lot of cops say swing just to escalate crime to an arrest. not so unheard of.

but... we dont have the whole story, we only have one side and we may never know what truly happen

i havent needed all this to argue, there is NO call to taser a cuffed 14 yr old girl with two male cops

[Goblinmonger]

311. I'll stick to the story

but you don't seem to want to.

Sure, maybe he didn't identify himself as a cop. But if she didn't know he was a cop, I doubt the mom would have the reaction she did. Granted, that isn't in the story. I'll leave that until we know, but will admit I am operating on the assumption that he did.

My "natural inclination" would not be to punch them in the face. I might swat at the hand but would more likely pull myself/my arm away from the touch if I was pissed.

And please don't say I described it "without context." How many times have a discussed the chain of events in this tread (granted, the "did he identify himself" is a new wrinkle yet to be discussed).

[Gormy Cuss]

319. You aren't sticking to the story. You are adding detail that isn't there.

That's my point. You like everyone else must make some assumption based on gaps in the news account. I see no indication that she was aware that he was a sworn officer until after the alleged "punch".

You said that your inclination would be perhaps to swat at a hand. Are you an adolescent girl? No, you're an adult with a different maturity level and ability to assess appropriate response to the level of the threat. If you're an adult, then a swat may seem appropriate. If instead you attempted to push the hand off of your arm rather than swatting it, that may have being construed as an attempt to punch. Who knows if that's what happened here?

If you're a teen with a family history that has brought you into the foster care system you may have had life experiences that make you react with a balled fist instead because of past victimization. There's a hint that this is plausible from the foster mother's comments suggesting that this teen is an angry person. Using blue language is a pretty mild form of venting that anger IMHO. There is no suggestion that her use of obscene or vulgar words was directed at the younger children, or that she was threatening them in any other way disturbing the peace. This reads like a minor infraction by a minor until the cop escalated it by trying to touch her as she walked away. Should the girl have been reprimanded? Absolutely. It's the rest of the incident that seems to have been handled badly by the cop.

I haven't read every reply on the thread but the question of whether and when he identified himself as LE occurred to me as soon as I saw that he was off duty yet patrolling the subdivision. In or out of uniform is unanswered, as is whose patrol car was used -- it matters a great deal whether it was marked as subdivision security or a Gwinnett county vehicle.

[Goblinmonger]

321. I am agreeing with you on the ID part

Maybe didn't make that clear. My biggest "sticking points" are the ID (thanks to you), the "touch," and, of course, the events resulting in the taser. The ID is not addressed in the article. The "touch" is but I admit a great deal of grey area there. The events as listed make it sound likely it was OK. But we all really need to wait and see.

I'm sure if I'm wrong, I will have a hundred or so people telling me about it. Wonder if I'll get that many apologies if I'm right?

[Gormy Cuss]

326. And if you're wrong, will you apologize to each person who called it correctly?

Honestly, it's just a discussion. The only reason to apologize is if one has dug in and resorted to incivility aimed at posters who disagree. Other than that, it's a matter of a difference of opinion. We aren't on a jury. Most of us aren't contacting the Gwinnett sheriff either.

[seabeyond]

329. difference of opinion................ yes. n/t

[riqster]

332. If he was on duty, in uniform, and ID'd himself as a cop, I hope none of my kids would throw a punch

Otherwise, they would have been expected to mace the bastard, on the assumption that it was Halloween, and crazy men have been known to be out there looking to abduct teenaged girls.

I see assumptions as the basis for this argument. If you're an authoritarian whose knee-jerk reaction is to trust The Man, you'll make the assumption that the kid was in the wrong. If you've had the cops shit on you (as I have), your assumptions will be the opposite.

Look at THE KNOWN, STATED FACTS: a man is driving in a car where children are trick-or-treating. He observes a teenaged girl cursing, and stops, to tell her to stop. She does not stop. He tells her to stop or be arrested. She WALKED AWAY.

Problem solved. All done. WHY DID HE GRAB HER? The situation he stopped to address has been addressed.

Were it me, I'd assume the guy was NOT a cop and defend myself, because the grabbing made no sense. Why would a cop grab her after saying "stop it or else" and she stopped? Halloween night, we make sure our kids are hyper-vigilant, and for her to react as she did makes a lot of sense from a teenaged girl's POV.

Frankly, unless he had a cam in his car taping the exchange, I am going to side with the girl, becasue if you just look at the known facts, what he did makes no sense; the grabbing was out-of bounds.

[seabeyond]

325. but lets understand. a cop can interpret a swat as a punch just as easy

as not. this adult cant maintain and goes for a swat... that is still assaulting an officer.

your ass is tasered. and cop totally within his right per a few posters

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

303. If it was in self-defense, like this, I'd say good for her.

The cop assaulted her first.

[Goblinmonger]

308. Assaulted her?

And we know that how?

[Evoman]

313. You know I love you man, but your wrong in this.

Would you let a man, EVEN dressed as a cop on Halloween, touch your daughter? Would you let her be taken into a car without complaint?

The cop is an adult. He should fucking know better than to be touching/arresting kids. He tried to assert his authority, which he shouldn't have done, and escalated a situation.

[Goblinmonger]

320. Ironically

I have a 14 year old daughter. And the "did he identify himself" thing is a good point. I said a few days ago that her response to his request should have been to ask him for ID and call the cops on her cell phone to make sure he was a cop. Trying to punch him in the face is not the response. And I have talked to my daughter since then telling her that she can and should do those things. Ask for the ID. Call the police to verify he is a cop. I know a lot of cops in my area at least and none of them would be pissed with that response if done in a mature way.

And I love you to, even if you are wrong.

[seabeyond]

327. you really think cops will allow and give her time to do all that stuff.

that alone, let me see your id and let me call to make sure you are legit challenges these macho males and how dare a teenage girl challenge and not submit to the authority of these men. you might have just set your daughter up. the up side, she will probably never have to take your advice

and here is why it is so very important to me that we interact with our police force as a community and adjust some attitude so we dont have the unnecessary, dangerous and painful situations. for your daughters sake

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

316. Because it says so in the story.

If you get in an argument with somebody and they start walking away and you run up behind them and grab their arm... that's assault.

[Goblinmonger]

322. That's not what the story says.

It did not say he "ran up behind" her. It did not say he "grabbed her arm." It said she turned to leave and he "touched her arm." Could the article be wrong? Yes. Everyone's adding something, I guess--even me!

[seabeyond]

330. we know if the cop said "grab" his ass would be in trouble

he was very sure to say touch. but i ask you the natural thing a person would do to stop anothers foreward momentum. grab. now.... we cannot say that is what happened, but logic comes into play. and it is in all of our heads, ... sittin there

[Bonobo]

318. I would doubt the veracity of the policeman's claim.

[Goblinmonger]

324. I have no problem with that.

Basically saying he is guilty and the only one in the wrong based on what we know from one story is a whole different thing. I'm not even saying (contrary to what others have said) that the story is accurate, but that given what we know, there are scenarios both ways.

[Bonobo]

328. The thing is, most of us think you should START with the assumption that

a 14 year old girl should NOT EVER be tasered. If you start with that assumption, you will find that many alternative ways of dealing with the situation arise.

On the other hand, if you start with the assumption that no one is above getting tasered and it is a really useful tool, you will soon find someon ewho is appropriate to taser.

Do you get me? It's all about where WE want to be as a society.

This is our country, our policemen, and WE write that rules (indirectly) about what kind of behavior we expect, what kind of police procedures we accept.

I simply think we should START on higher moral ground. Tasering a 14 y.o. girl should send up alarm bells that we are not going in the right direction.

[sarcasmo]

295. Our Police State is becoming more and more obvious.

When will the sheep wake up?