I think it is good to point out - there is a fundamental disconnect

[Joe for Clark]

going on right now. I am fairly (or not) christian - I am. Christian to me, I think Martin Luther King. You say christian to the post Reagan set - and they think Fallwell.

There could not be a more fundamental disconnect.

So if I say there is a christian left rising - I say it because I know there are many, many like me that understand just what they did to our religion. And we are taking it back - right now!!

I hope everyone here understands this and give us a little distance from the "nut jobs".

Joe for Clark (and hopefully Gore)

[JuniperLea]

1. I hear you!

I was raised in a Fundy family. I have a cousin who was raised in the same church with me who is now a missionary in Israel... and a big fan of Rush Limbaugh... 'nuff said.

That experience left me Agnostic. Unless you talk to my B/F who insists I still have a lot of it in me. I hope that means the good stuff I learned. Like treat everyone, especially the poor and downtrodden, as you would Christ himself. Christ was very concerned with the poor and the ill and he tried to set a good example for us to follow. I think today's "lepers" are the gay, the homeless, etc. All the groups the Fundy right would want us to ignore, or even condemn. Yet these are the same people Jesus would have the most empathy for.

We also have to deal with civil rights. That means, whether we like it or not, people can choose to believe what they want to believe. If a certain church believes gays are evil, we have to turn the other cheek. What we don't have to do is sit back and watch the Fundy nutjobs impose their beliefs on others!

Momma always said never discuss religion or politics. So what do I do? I comment on a religion thread on a political message board. Oi!

:P

[Joe for Clark]

2. Its ok - I don't think I could sell water in a desert

when it comes to religion. And I know, some of the most "christian" people I ever met were not.

Doesn't matter.

Some people made it matter - and corrupted a faith. That matters.

It is true you know, life is a pendulum and swings both ways. It is coming back the other way right now. It is surely ok with me to believe what ever you want. Just don't judge christianity based on these last years. And rest assured, what goes around, comes around.

Karma.

Joe

[HCE SuiGeneris]

3. That is encouraging.

I hope that the real intent of adopting religious principles is to propagate a higher understanding of morality, and of implementing higher standards in our interaction with our total environment. The "moral" right has, from what I have seen, done the exact opposite.

[JuniperLea]

4. I agree

I have known true Christians. Some of those who profess to be Christians these days, well, I just think it blasphemous to call oneself such a thing when there is nothing but hate being preached.

I remember hearing sermons about the last days, and about the warnings that many will come in His name and they will fool even God's chosen. I believe we are seeing that right now. I still have a lot of Fundy family members who think I'm the Devil incarnate because I don't support Bush and his war. I tell them that anyone who tells you that Jesus, the Prince of Peace, wants this war is lying to you. And furthermore, we were told to treat the lesser of men like we would treat Jesus because they are his brothers. And further still, God loves us all unconditionally. He loves GW, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden and Jerry Fallwell every bit as much as he loves you or I. Oooooo... they hate that one. They can't seem to separate the sin from the sinner.

I'm all for the pendulum swinging back.

Jesus loves the little children. ALL the children of the world! Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight...

[CrazyOrangeCat]

6. you speak the truth. they can't handle peace/love.

I can't even imagine having grown up in a truly Fundie family. I know several who have. I'm thinking you're the most sane of the lot!!

:hi:

[JuniperLea]

9. I had a rough time of it all

I had my own music ministry... I traveled from church to church... I was invited to come sing all over California... Churches, schools, prisons, orphanages, etc. I took rock and roll tunes and put my own words to them, and I even recorded an album of original music written by my choir director. Then one day I was singing at a big gathering in my home town. Many choirs and singers from all over gathered. I was sitting in the audience waiting my turn and listening to the others, when I overheard one of my own church elders saying, "that rock beat comes straight from the depths of hell!" I had quite the conversation with him and my pastor... mainly along the lines of how I felt Lord led to do what I was doing and who were they to question the mysterious ways of the Lord, and that my music is getting attention with young people and many are coming to hear my music, and staying to hear the sermons. What could be wrong or evil with that? I asked hard questions. Questions based on scripture that they themselves taught me. They didn't like it too well, and I didn't like the way they condescended. Well, it wasn't but about six months later that the pastor had an affair with a married female member of the congregation, and in hearing of his transgressions, his wife tried to kill herself.

I figured that was a sign. I was out of there. I've since read many books on many religions and I still consider myself a seeker of truth, but I've been very unwilling to link myself with another Christian church. Every time I have gone to one since the awful ending noted above, I've been ultra sensitive to hypocrisy. And I haven't found one so-called Christian church thus far that is devoid of the same.

I know on a deep level, I have strong beliefs about God. But I consider myself a spiritual person, not a religious person. I am glad I had the experiences, and I'm glad I came to know scripture. Unfortunately, I use it more now to point out hypocrisy than anything.

Still, I believe in peace and love!

[CrazyOrangeCat]

10. yours is quite a story.

thanks for sharing it.

i've belonged to many churches. and now at 48, i find myself, like you, ultrasensitive to hypocrisy and buzz-words . . . bullshit in general. and without a church. but that's okay. there's plenty to be said for spirituality at the individual level.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

5. I'm with you.

MLK practiced the words of Jesus.

My father has too. Either would've given the shirt off their backs, because of their faith.

I struggle with hate. Because . . . truth be told I truly hate the hypocrites down through the ages who've usurped the things Christ taught, for their own gain. These warmongering chickenhawks are the worst, tho . . .

Their hands are covered with the blood of innocents, and I swear, I don't know how to not hate them, Joe.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

7. Ahh... you have iterated the crux of the matter.

I become a hateful person when I witness harm inflicted upon innocent entities. People or animals, it matters not. It presents a very difficult situation when an immediate remedy is required. An excellent point C O C. And a correct solution that will invariably remain hidden to me.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

8. For those of us who were taught . . .

. . . to stand up for the weak and powerless, I suspect it will remain hidden.

I have read enough about MLK, and have listened to some of the things he said under terrible duress . . . to know that he somehow approached everyone with love.

That is amazing to me. Thanks for replying, BD12. :hi:

[Az]

11. Its about time. As an atheist its tough for us to tell the fundamentalists they got it wrong

I mean we have no cred in their books to begin with. Its up to you guys to shout down those who misrepresent the man you cherish.

Anyone that embraces tolerance and learning is fine in my book.