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He was stranded, now he's steamed (PA Nat'l Guard?)

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 01:27 AM
Original message
He was stranded, now he's steamed (PA Nat'l Guard?)
SUSAN KOOMAR
Pocono Record Managing Editor
February 17, 2007

... "I had to go to the truck driver next to me to find out what was going on," he said. "They said 'Oh, the National Guard is out.' But there wasn't a soul around ...

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070217/NEWS/702170328/-1/News


Tourism weekend may be salvaged after road closures
Catherine Rodriguez and David Pierce
Pocono Record Writers
February 17, 2007

... A promise of National Guard troops to help state police direct traffic never materialized ...

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070217/NEWS/702170326/-1/News


Local officials upset with state response
David Pierce
Pocono Record Writer
February 17, 2007

... Miller said the state also failed to followup with a promise of National Guard troops to take over the I-80/Route 209 checkpoint so state police could get back to other duties ...

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070217/NEWS/702170327/-1/News
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. "National Guard troops to help state police direct traffic" - are there any left stateside? nt
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Much of the PA Nat'l Guard is indeed in Iraq
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Incorrect
Edited on Sun Feb-18-07 02:01 AM by sanskritwarrior
the largest unit in the PAANG is in the middle of a Stryker fielding at Indiantown Gap.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Pennsylvania_National_Guard_Gets_Stryker_Light_Armored_Vehicles.html

Here is the Stryker page under US Brigades is the order they are being fielded and the order in which they can or have already deployed. 4/2 is going to Iraq as part of the surge. SBCT 5 - 2nd Brigade, 25th Infantry Division is in Hawaii and cannot deploy until next year as it is still being fielded. That means the PAANG Stryker Brigade wont be ready to deploy until mid 2008 at the earliest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryker

Also the 2nd largest unit returned last year

http://2bctironsoldiers.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_2bctironsoldiers_archive.html

Actually searching the PAARNG page, I can't find a single major unit in Iraq.......they have already gone and come back.

The only unit I can find deployed is B/1-104th ATK BN: July 2005 to December 2007

http://www.dmva.state.pa.us/paarng/cwp/view.asp?a=3&q=441220
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. You may be right. But it's actually impossible to tell --
The ironsoldiers blog you link promises a summer 2006 return date but links itself to a government site (last updated in April) that says the troops are serving in Ramadi.

The Administration prefers to move to move folk around in small chunks (of a few hundred), so despite PA having the largest Natl Guard in the US, it probably doesn't move en masse but smaller pieces get shuffled here and there to limit opposition that big movements would trigger. In particular, the final link you quote is completely undefinitive, since it's own one of many units.

Some of your links are from last June and fail to note that the Stryker units were scheduled to be delivered not only to Indiantown Gap but to a number of other armories across the state.

On the other hand, if Natl Guard are sent off to Hawaii to train for Iraq duty -- or if they're sent elsewhere to free other troops for Iraq duty -- they still aren't available for emergencies in PA

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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I hope that is a rhetorical question......
As of right now of the 15 Army National Guard Combat Brigades, one is in Iraq.

There are 330,000 National guard members, 15% of which are in Iraq. Look I'm not being snotty, of course the NG is overstretched, just like us AD guys are. But it is factually incorrect to imply that all the Guardsmen are gone to Iraq.......
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Sheesh, touchy!
Edited on Sun Feb-18-07 01:48 AM by Bluebear
Look, during Katrina it was revealed that a WHOLE lot of life-saving equipment was over in Iraq, and not available to save lives here at home. A GAO report says that Guard units at home only have 34% of the equipment they need, so I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that our National Guard are not as ready as they could be to help with disasters at home.

===

Relief efforts to combat Hurricane Katrina suffered near catastrophic failures due to endemic corruption, divisions within the military and troop shortages caused by the Iraq war, an official American inquiry into the disaster has revealed.

The confidential report, which has been seen by The Independent, details how funds for flood control were diverted to other projects, desperately needed National Guards were stuck in Iraq and how military personnel had to "sneak off post" to help with relief efforts because their commander had refused permission.

The shortcomings in dealing with Katrina have rocked George Bush's administration. Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, has resigned from his post and polls show that a majority of Americans feel the President showed inadequate leadership.

The report was commissioned by the Office of Secretary of Defence as an "independent and critical review" of what went so wrong. In a hard-hitting analysis, it says: "The US military has long planned for war on two fronts. This is as close as we have come to reality since the Second World War; the results have been disastrous."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article316682.ece
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sanskritwarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Not touchy at all
I'm committed to factual proof......Katrina was a disgrace and a result of the 256th Mech still being in Iraq. The fact is Bush Fucked up in Lousiana by not redeploying the 256th the largest unit of the LANG. The fact is most of the PAARNG is not in Iraq, most of them have been home nearly a year....I'm not touchy, I don't like incorrect facts......
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
7. Lets pick the people to blame
First is the Governor. Why did he NOT call a State Emergency? Yes, I know the Eastern 1/3 of the State (Harrisburg and East) get a lot more snow then in Western Pennsylvania. This is because Atlantic Storms bring in a lot of warm moist air, which drops a lot of wet snow. Such Atlantic Storms rarely reach across the Mountains.

The problem was this was an Alberta Clipper combined with moist air from the WEST. Alberta Clipper rarely brings with them much moisture (Cold Air does NOT carry moisture as while as warmer air). The problem was the Alberta Clipper was pushing a weak warm front in front of it and that warm front had the moisture. Pennsylvania was already under below 20 degree temperatures BEFORE these two fronts went through, thus the predictions were for 12 or more inches of snow with Freezing rain and sleet possible. The key was HOW high the temperature was going to go, if above freezing the moisture would come down as rain, if at Freezing, the moisture would come down as Freezing rain, if just below Freezing as sleet, if below about 28, as snow (Everyone was hoping for snow, as it became more and more apparent that the moisture was NOT going to come down as rain).

This was further complicated by where the air temperature switched between freezing and above freezing temperatures. It might be 28 on the surface but at 1000 feet up it might be 33. This would be enough for the snow to melt and then refreeze as freezing rain.

Thus while no one was predicting more than 2 feet of snow, everyone was predicting Freezing rain would be part of the mix. This was going to be a mess. Now Governor Ridge, when he was governor, did close down the state in anticipation of such a similar Storm and received all types of flak for doing so. In a nutshell that is the problem, the storm was going to be bad, but the state hoped it would NOT be so bad that the state would have to close down. That was true in most of the state, the local Schools and Government made the decision to close down (In my local area, Cannondale bicycle Company even told the media to add its name to the Closing list, which they did). On I-78 the State lost its gamble. A Truck Jackknifed and do to the ice on the road the truck could not be moved quickly, this backed up traffic which prevented the snow trucks from plowing and salting (and tying up the trucks with removing the Tractor-Trailer AND being caught up in the same traffic mess).

Thus the problem was that tractor trailer SHOULD not have been on the road, most of the cars should NOT have been on the road, and all of this do to the Governor NOT declaring a State Emergency forcing employers to close down businesses and telling their employees to go him BEFORE the Storm hit (Governor Ridge’s Order had been a voluntary order but it was enough for many employees to convinced their employers to close down for the day). Thus if the Governor had issued a State Emergency (And be willing to take the heat for doing so) this mess would have been avoided, a lot of business would be complaining of having to close early, but that is the cost of gambling that “The State will survive this storm without declaring an Emergency”.

Second, who called out the National Guard? Remember these are PART TIME SOLDIERS; they have to get off their CIVILIAN Jobs before they can go home, get their Uniforms, go to the Armory, pick up their Trucks and help out. Many can’t do that unless called up, and most times the Unit wait for Volunteers and send them into action quickly, and then wait the 2-3 days for the rest of the unit to get to the armory. That is what happen When I volunteer for the Western Pennsylvania Water disaster in 1988, we did not have time for people to get to the armory after being called, those who show up on their own went out. Most National Guard people cannot just leave their work; they have to arrange the time off with their boss. For example telling them you have been called up, and many bosses will DEMAND a copy of the ORDERS. This is a VALID demand of one’s employer thus the National Guardsmen have to go to the armory to get a copy of the ORDER and take it back to your boss. All of this takes TIME and thus it takes TIME to call up whole units, volunteers who show up at the armory on their own do most of the emergency work.

Furthermore except for MPs, most National Guardsmen and NOT trained to direct Traffic, we do it in an emergency and when we pull out our own trucks from an armory, but that is all, the only people who can direct traffic are Police Officers. In my Water crisis days I even had to be escorted by a State Police Officer, even through the Officer did NOT know where we were going and I did (I had to follow him and then direct him where to turn using by turn Signals). While my old unit was used in Iraq as MPs, this was as Escorts NOT directing Traffic, thus they are still NOT qualified to direct Traffic (Through could be used to man road blocks onto the Interstate to prevent cars from entering the Interstates).

Another Complications is the National Guard’s fear that people may use their equipment at home, thus equipment is often kept in lockers in the Armory (When I was in the Texas National Guard my personal Equipment was kept at home, but in Pennsylvania it was always kept in the Locker). Furthermore my old unit (I last served in the late 1980s) kept our Cold Weather boots separate, least we wear them out by wearing them at home in the winter. Thus I would NOT be surprised that NONE of the National Guardsmen had Winter Boots, all of which would have to be issued to them from Indiantown gap. This is what happened to the only pair of Winter Boots I was issued in the National Guard. My unit had planned for a Winter Camp for over six months, every drill for six months we had to report any shortage of equipment, boots, tents, uniforms, web gear etc. The plan was to issue as any shortage of equipment AFTER we arrived at Fort Indiantown Gap. We hit the gap and went straight to the field. This lead to a near disastrous as the temperatures drops to the low 20s and all we were regular boots and rubber over-boots, Field Jackets and liner. In most Pennsylvania Winters that was good enough, but every so often temperatures drop to the 20s and you need more. In our case as we went to the field, temperatures dropped and after one night in the field we had to be called out of the field do to lack of boots, long underwear, and cold weather gear. At the end of out two-week winter Camp we had to TURNED both the Winter Coats and winter boots back in when we arrived at the Armory. We were NOT to keep them least we wear them during the winter. In my last two years in the Guard I never saw those boots again.
MY point here is I do NOT think the National Guard Units were CAPABLE of working outside, the Guard is more worried about the Guardsmen using their Uniform while in the Civilian World then of the Guardsmen being able to get ready in bad weather as quickly as possible. Thus I do not think the Guardsmen could man those Barrier do to lack of Winter Clothing (Mostly lack of cold weather boots), it was and continues to be cold and you need that extra protection the Army Cold Weather boots provide if you have to stand around in the cold weather which the Guardsmen would have to do.

One last comment, many Guardsmen are also Police Officers, Sheriff Deputies and even prison Guards, all of whom were already involved in helping the situation, which put another crimp in the ability of the Guard to help out in this situation. All the Guard could really do is drive their Trucks on the median strip (If there is one) and make sure everyone had blankets, food and enough gasoline to keep warm (and to provide transportation if any of the Driver needed to go someplace and warm up). While I can blame the Guard for NOT being able to get into action faster, given the limitation the Guard operates under, the Guard even showing up within a day was a great job on their part.

As to Penndot, I cannot blame them; no one expected a tractor-trailer to jackknife. Such an incident requires heavy-duty wreckers, which may take hours to get to such a tractor Trailer during good weather. Once traffic was tied up it was up to the State Police and Local Police to control Traffic. Both the State Police and the Local Police assumed this would be clean up in a couple of hours did not close the entrance ramps (Remember the Governor had NOT declared an Emergency so no reason to close the ramps). Apparently the heavy duty wreckers had a tough time getting to the wreck do to the traffic and the ice. Once at the scene, the ice caused problems for the wrecker on picking up the tractor and trailer (Remember most such wreckers are NOT four wheel drive, so they had to be careful not to get struck and waste time pulling themselves out). This is all foreseeable IF YOU HAVE A ICE STORM. Thus I have to go back to the Governor for NOT calling an emergency.

The State Police from what I heard did an excellent Job, but again the Governor has to provide the leadership and he was watching a Basketball game. This is the problem, this was a bad storm that everyone gambled would be minor, it was not and the blame should be on the people who made the gamble, the Governor and his Staff.
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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. thanks for the informative post nt
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
8. just my opinion
The valentine's day storm dumped about 18" in my little corner of PA.

This was the first SIGNIFICANT snow storm of the 2006-2007 winter.

It's not like PA has never had a huge snowstorm before, and it's not like there have been multiple storms this season dumping on us like Oswego NY area and has stretched or busted the snow removal budgets of towns/cities/state

Granted, I live on a road that has low priority when it comes to snow removal. We heard 1 plow go by around 11pm on Tuesday night. We didn't see another plow until 1:30pm on Wednesday when it was still snowing pretty heavily, and again not until 9-10pm Wednesday night.

The road was somewhat passable on Thursday - enough for me to make it 3/4 of mile down the road before I skidded into a snowbank.

Downtown roads in Wilkes-Barre were virtually untouched, side streets weren't even plowed until late Thursday

Given that PA has had BIG storms before, has had experience with big storms, had adequate warnings about the storm coming in and there were no "money" problems with snow removal budgets - there's no excuse for the piss-poor job.

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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-18-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Under the Commonwealth model, aren't the townships generally responsible
for snowplow operations?
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