Vietnam vet lauds woman's courage in stopping Springs shooter

[RamboLiberal]

-----

Near an entry way in the church Bourbonnais came upon the gunman and an armed male church security guard who was there with his gun drawn but not firing, he said.

Bourbonnais said he pleaded with the armed guard to give him his weapon.

-----

There was an additional armed security guard there, another man, who also didn't fire, Bourbonnais said.

-----

Bourbonnais ducked behind a hollow, decorative pillar and was hit in the arm by a bullet and fragments of the pillar.

At about that moment, a woman with a drawn handgun turned a corner and walked toward the gunman and yelled "Surrender!" Bourbonnais said.

The gunman pointed a handgun at the woman and fired three shots, Bourbonnais said. She returned fire and just kept walking toward the gunman pressing off round after round.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_7683781

As a female CCW holder - just found it interesting that the woman guard was the one who acted.

[Critters2]

1. I'm sure the Holy Spirit is proud. nt

[Mike Daniels]

2. The guy fired at her first

She fired in self defense. Your sarcasm is totally off the mark.

[Critters2]

3. Jesus counsels against acting violently in self-defense.

Quite explicitly.

[atreides1]

6. Just because she works there as a security guard.

Doesn't mean she's a member of the church! It doesn't even mean she's a practicing Christian, just a security guard.

[RamboLiberal]

10. Pastor mentioned she is a member of the church

in an earlier story said she comes to earlier service then is a personal guard for him at later services.

[Critters2]

12. The pastor said she is a member of the church. nt

[FredScuttle]

27. Praise the Lord, pass the ammo and reload

yee-haw.

[piedmont]

80. And what would you have done, oh Noble One? nt

[FredScuttle]

104. Not been in a church, that's for damn sure

they seem to be the hot zones for crazed armed killers.

[JVS]

109. It's a sad day when the champion of defending people's lives at a church has an FSM avatar

C'mon Christians!
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

This incident looked like it was a time to kill.

I don't see any time for letting innocent people be mowed down like hay, though.

[piedmont]

115. It feels kinda weird. nt

[aikoaiko]

7. yeah, but look what happened to him?

DRT at least for a couple of days.

[gratuitous]

8. Don't question the holy myth of redemptive violence

Our true national religion will brook no heresy.

[Critters2]

13. My point exactly.

Guess I've been reading too much Girard.

[RamboLiberal]

9. What was she supposed to do?

Let more people die at the hands of a madman? Jesus never had to confront a man with a rifle and remember Peter did carry a sword!

[Critters2]

18. And Jesus told Peter to put the sword away.

Jesus had plenty opportunity to defend himself. He chose not to.

[piedmont]

20. Exactly. HIMSELF. Not hundreds of other people about to be slaughtered.

Your pacifist hypocrisy is disgusting.

[Critters2]

21. How is it hypocrisy? nt

[piedmont]

39. It's hypocrisy of the most digusting variety...

to let OTHER people be violently butchered (or advocate such) so you can preserve YOUR "clean" concience. You esteem your belief in your own blamelessness as higher in value than other peoples' lives.

[Critters2]

41. I'm looking for ways to solve problems that don't involve violence

because violent means don't work. They only cause more violence.

[piedmont]

42. Violent means worked this time. He couldn't have been stopped any other way.

The woman ended the violence.

[Critters2]

45. No way to know.

No one tried any other way.

[piedmont]

47. YES, they did. And she did, too. nt

[Dorian Gray]

52. So...

allowing the whole church to be butchered would have solved this problem more to your liking?

[Critters2]

54. No way to know that the whole church would have been slaughtereed.nt

[piedmont]

56. It's beyond a reasonable doubt that he would have killed more people.

He died while in the act of trying to kill people.

[Dorian Gray]

51. It seems as though you would have preferred

the whole church to be dessicated to this woman shooting the killer in defense of the church. At least that is how it appears to me when you point out her "hypocrisy."

[Critters2]

53. Desiccated?

As in dehydrated? No, I think they should have as many fluids as they want.

AS to what I think you meant...they claim to be followers of Jesus, who explicitly spoke against violence in self-defense. Then they carry guns to church. THAT is hypocrisy.

[Dorian Gray]

55. Wrong word....

It's been a long day. My vocabulary is generally pretty good, but I have no excuse for that one. :)

So, let's just substitute destruction. But, my point stands. There would have been devestation within the church if the gunman had been allowed to fire off his rounds. And for you to feel a sense of moral superiority because a CHRISTIAN (GASP!) dared to have a gun, which she brought to church, according to articles, because of the fears about the prior shooting at a church in Colorado, just reeks of self-righteousness.

I'm glad that she had a gun there, as countless of other lives would have been lost.

[Critters2]

58. Again, no way to know that.

And yes, people who follow a many who taught turning the other cheek ought to try non-violent means to solve problems. Or stop claiming to follow him.

[onenote]

62. there is more than one view of this among theologicans

Your absolutism borders on fundamentalism. There are many theologians who take the view, based on biblical sources and references, that failing to prevent a murder or rape when it could've been prevented is itself morally wrong - that one can commit an immoral act by omission as well as by commission.

[The Straight Story]

63. Not really, even according to buddhism

If you don't act to save lives, you are responsible for those lives lost due to your inaction.

[RamboLiberal]

84. Yep, the Shaolins didn't train in martial arts for nothing

The monks knew there were times self-defense and the defense of others is called for and justified!

And I've known some priests, ministers and rabbis who trained in martial arts - and a few who carry a gun. I wouldn't say they go against their God or Jesus!

[piedmont]

71. That's your way of washing your hands of it.

Saying that there's no way to know what a madman with a gun who had already killed would do is exactly the logic that Pontius Pilate used when allowing Jesus' fate to be determined by the blood-thirsty crowd instead of intervening on Jesus' behalf. He believed he had cleansed himself of responsibity, too.

[Critters2]

72. Shooting people is the easy way in this culture.

Looking for peaceful solutions is the challenge.

[piedmont]

74. More empty platitudes? That's ALL you've got?

Alright, mycritters2, what would YOU have done? Let's say you were in that hallway, with or without a gun, and this man is shooting his way towad the crowded auditorium at the end of the hall. Show us how you're not only morally superior, but mentally as well. What would you have done that would save more lives than this heroic woman?

[Critters2]

76. My training in non-violence would have kicked in and I would have

sat down and prayed. I hope. Hard to know for sure. But that's what I'm trained to do.

[RamboLiberal]

82. You'd have sat down and prayed and this gunman would've

had the new U.S. record for a massacre with a gun.

The woman security guard prayed as she aimed and fired her pistol while facing this madman's bullets where he had her outgunned and all those who would've died and been wounded if she hadn't taken action lived!

Sorry, I prefer her method of prayer.

I'll admit her news conference creeped me out - the Jesus freaks always do - and this from someone who grew up a Roman Catholic with 12 years of parochial education, but I for one sure won't condemn her.

[piedmont]

83. You would have let people die, rather than jeopardize your shot at Heaven. nt

[Critters2]

91. Don't believe in the kind of heaven I think you're talking about.

So, not part of the issue.

[Critters2]

89. I can only control me. And I will not participate in violence. nt

[piedmont]

95. You keep saying that, and it keeps ringing false.

The lady who shot the murderer controlled his actions. She prevented his murdering other people.

[Critters2]

97. And she continues the cycle of violence. nt

[Marie26]

98. No, she STOPPED the cycle of violence. nt

[Critters2]

99. No, she acted violently. Thus, perpetuating violence. nt.

[piedmont]

102. To allow innocents to be murdered in order to protect your moral superiority...

is to participate in those murders.

[Ghost in the Machine]

103. She told him to surrender. He fires at her three times. She was justified. PERIOD!

End of story. She should get a medal.....

[JVS]

110. She acted violently, and thus stopped violence.

[Critters2]

111. For the Church to be authenticly the Body of Christ,

it can't engage in the world's violence. It must remain vulnerable to it. It isn't so much the actions of this one woman that concern me, but that the church arranged for her to do it.

The Body of Christ doesn't need bodyguards.

[JVS]

112. The Church is Christ's body, guards or not.

Violence is also not universally condemned throughout the scriptures. Did God not help David to slay Goliath?

[hack89]

101. How incredibly selfish. nt

[Booster]

30. This woman wasn't Jesus, she was a security guard. She did the

only thing she could do. Cut her some slack - think what you would have done.

[Critters2]

31. I wouldn't have had a gun. nt

[onenote]

43. as a matter of conscience you may choose not to be a security guard

And that's perfectly valid. But if you or your family are among a group of people confronted by someone intent on killing them and there is a security guard present who can stop it, I would hope they'd save everyone by stopping it, even if you don't want to be saved.

[Sanctified]

46. And you would be dead whats your point? n/t

[murielm99]

11. Hey, mycritters!

I haven't seen you in awhile.

How is your Advent coming along?

:hi:

[Critters2]

16. Nicely, thank you. I'm behind in visiting, thanks to the ice.

Did two nursing home visits this morning, even though it's technically my day off. Otherwise, I'll be taking communion to shut-ins on Christmas Day.

How are things up your way? :hi:

[murielm99]

28. Things are going to be icy for the second time.

There is an ice storm predicted for this evening. My husband has to go to work tonight, and I am not happy about it.

Two of my children will be here for Christmas Day. The oldest has a concert on Christmas Eve, and is meeting her girlfriend's parents on Christmas Day.

I hope my son will go to church with us. Usually, he is the one who suggests it. My youngest may be a Buddhist now. I lose track.

[slackmaster]

15. And just look what that policy got him

[Critters2]

17. Eternal life? Doesn't see so bad. nt

[piedmont]

64. So that's what your pacifism is all about? Gaining eternal life for yourself...

even if it means allowing others to be murdered?

[Critters2]

66. It's about doing whatever it takes to create a more peaceful world.

Peace can't be built with guns.

[piedmont]

78. Allowing people to be murdered is not creating a peaceful world.

You are more like Pontius Pilate than Jesus.

[Critters2]

88. Jesus taught me to turn the other cheek.

I think he meant it.

[piedmont]

90. Jesus did NOT teach you to serve up others to be murdered.

Pontius Pilate did that.

[LanternWaste]

23. Odd. That's just what the Biblical literalists say, too.

Odd. That's just what the Biblical literalists say, too.

[Critters2]

25. No, they don't. They ignore HUGE portions of the teachings of Jesus,

so they can feel okay about carrying guns to church.

[Judi Lynn]

24. Absolutely! Could not be clearer. n/t

[Marie26]

32. I don't get that

So police should never fire on an armed gunman? A woman should never shoot someone who's attacked her? No one should ever defend themselves? If a police officer sees a madman with 500 rounds of ammunition run into a church & start killing people, the officer should just... what? Give him a hug? That's just nutty. This woman's actions likely saved the lives of hundreds of people & she's a hero in my book.

[Critters2]

34. Look at the work of Ghandi and MLK for help as to what one should do.

Non-violent actions work.

[Marie26]

37. No, actually they don't

They were both assasinated, weren't they? I'm anti-gun & anti-war, but this is sheer nuttiness. What do you think that this guard should have done, exactly? We already know that the gunmen had already shot & killed people at the first church & now he's shooting and killing people here. Should she just have run away & hid? Let innocent people die?

[Critters2]

38. Ghandi's goal wasn't living forever.

It was making the world a better place. That is also the goal of the Christian faith. Except in Colorado, apparently.

[piedmont]

40. And the world is a better place when innocents are allowed to be murdered?

Explain to me how preventing dozens of murders isn't making the world a better place.

[Critters2]

87. The only way to end violence is for EVERYONE to stop participating.

I can only control my own actions. I refuse to participate. When everyone does, the violence will end. Guns won't solve this problem.

[piedmont]

94. The way to stop violence is to stop the violent from committing violence

You certainly can control others' actions, as this woman did today. She prevented murder.

[onenote]

105. problem with your theory: no one but the guy killing innocents

was engaging in violence. Yet the violence wasn't ending and probably wouldn't have until a lot more innocent people died. His actions weren't in response to violence.

[Marie26]

44. That's fine

Everyone's got a right to sacrifice their own life - but NOT to sacrifice the lives of thousands of innocent people. This person acted to save those people, while you apparantly think that the guard should have done nothing & let the gunman continue shooting... as some sort of stand for non-violence? Nuttiness.

[onenote]

48. I have a feeling you won't be getting answers to your questions any time soon

[Marie26]

49. Yeah, me too.

Empty platitudes are soo much easier.

[Critters2]

67. You'd be wrong. nt

[Marie26]

68. LOL, so where's the answers? nt

[Critters2]

69. Answers to post 37 in post 38. Clever, no? nt

[piedmont]

79. And yet no answer for post 40. nt

[Marie26]

96. Or 44.

Not only did she actually stop the shooter, but she suggested the extra security in the first place.

"Boyd said Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did. The pastor credited the security plan and the extra security for preventing further bloodshed."

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html

I can't believe people are trying to criticize this person. She did her job & saved maybe hundreds of lives.

[piedmont]

100. Exasperating, no?

The parishioner also tried to get the murderer to surrender, thereby putting her own life in danger. And yet, for the extreme pacifist, she was somehow supposed to find ANOTHER non-violent way to end this, or die herself. And those people she saved should feel guilty that they are alive. Sheesh!

[Critters2]

65. It's just another incident in a long strand of violence

People need to find other ways to deal with violence. Responding only with violence creates more violence. It will in this case. Now, churches and church members will use this to justify having guns in churches, there'll be more violence. And it just goes on and on and on...

[onenote]

106. and if the guard hadn't shot the killer, then there would be no more violence?

Say it out loud and you'll realize how stupid it is.

[appal_jack]

77. Where & how, exactly?

I am no biblical scholar, so it's entirely possible that Jesus has quite explicitly counseled against violent self-defense. But if you are referring to the "turn the other cheek' line, then many scholars question the meaning of that line. One interpretation says that Jesus was counseling against any fight, and maybe that's right. But others more historically literate than I have also noted that "turning the other cheek" was also a cultural expression of contempt that one could show to an opponent. That is, after being struck, one could show the other cheek as a way of saying, "Try again, punk, 'cuz your first swing didn't do squat." If this latter interpretation is the correct one, then Jesus was counseling a strategy of restrained strength rather than complete passivity.

-app

[Critters2]

92. Still, he wasn't counseling shooting your opponent to death. nt

[onenote]

107. and, once again, how do you propose the shooter should've been stopped

taking into account the actual circumstances involved?

[Esra Star]

4. Terminator meets Rambo at the OK Corral.

Sweet dreams.
This is a disintegrating society.

[silverojo]

5. Women seem to have more guts than men

In my experience, at least...whenever there's been some sort of crisis or emergency around me, the men always hang back like chickensh*ts, and I'm the one who inevitably has to act first.

I hope things are different elsewhere, but in the places I've been, men are cowards at heart.

And no, I'm not sexist--just disappointed. :(

Maybe I've just been around too many Republicans (you know their motto: Don't just DO something, STAND there!).

[aikoaiko]

14. And the hero shooter didn't kills amazing amounts of bystanders.

Some DUers should take note.

[piedmont]

19. I DEMAND an end to "gun free" zones!

This is exactly what pro-2nd amendment folks are talking about when they say "if only someone had a gun."

[fascisthunter]

70. oh brother

:crazy:

[piedmont]

81. Yes?

[Kingshakabobo]

22. "I was asking the Holy Spirit to guide me the entire time."

Too bad she didn't have The Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

[Oeditpus Rex]

57. Would've taken too long

Gotta read Armaments 2 : 9-21 first, and St. Attila was a wordy bastard.




Edited to fix stupid smilie malfunction. :grr:

[kegler14]

26. Congratulations to the guard

These guy apparently had hundreds of rounds with him. And there were thousands in the church.

[ecstatic]

29. Fundie or not, that's one brave woman! Go girl!

Not only that, but she gave the guy a chance to drop his weapon too. That means she wasn't jumpy behind the trigger.

[Vinca]

33. Why would a church need multiple armed security guards????

Obviously it's good they were there during this incident, but isn't it unusual for a church to have armed security?

[piedmont]

35. It was an unusual day. The same shooter had just killed Christians...

an hour's drive away, 12 hours earlier. So these people took precautionary measures.

[Sanctified]

36. Because earlier two people were murdered about an hour away.

The church decided to up it's security to protect it's members.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

113. "Why would a church need multiple armed security guards????"

To protect the one and only thing the degenerates who attend mega-churches worship..... Money.

[Vinca]

114. Good point. My original thought was to wonder whether they had

armed guards all the time of if it was a one time thing. The megachurches must rake in megabucks.

[TheWraith]

50. That was pretty suicidal.

I'm glad it worked out for her, but the fine line between heroism and stupidity may have been breached here. Shouting at him, and thus giving away your position, as well as advancing without cover are both potentially fatal mistakes. When the other party has already opened fire, you dispense with formalities and shoot to disable without further warning. If she hadn't been very lucky, she'd simply have been throwing her life away.

[pitohui]

60. security guards often get VERY little training

a good friend of mine won a huge lawsuit because he was manhandled by a security guard -- who turned out to be head of security at that business and still didn't know his job -- amazing the poor training that many security guards get, some are former law enforcement but surprisingly many are not and have only minimal guidelines or training

sounds to me like she did the best she could being put on the spot like that

i don't mean to suggest that i "know" she had poor training, i don't, but the fact that two other guards freaked out and froze up is suggestive that they weren't trained for something this extreme, their usual role is probably escorting out jerks who try to steal from the collection basket or something

[TheWraith]

61. True, though to be honest most times they don't need it.

999,999 times out of a million, a security guard is unlikely to encounter any situation more dangerous than vandals, shoplifters, or other petty nuisances. There's no reason to train them like a genuine police force.

It's like the people who ask why there wasn't security at that campaign office in NH: why would there be? The odds of something happening are so low as to boggle the mind, and make the effort wasted.

That said, a lot of people do not have good instincts when it comes to stress situations, those two guards who panicked being other examples. This woman didn't freeze, but she may have seen a few too many action movies where the villians can't actually hit anything. She got lucky, and managed to live though stopping the guy.

[ecstatic]

75. Yes, it's pretty shocking that she would take the time to ask him to surrender first nt

[RamboLiberal]

85. Well maybe that was the Christian in her

Just glad she knew how to shoot and didn't buy in to other's non-violence and prayer will solve the problem philosophy.

[RamboLiberal]

86. Actually she says she took cover

-----

She calmly described how the incident unfolded.

"I heard shots fired, there was chaos," she said. "There was a lot of people in the church. People were running away from shots fired.

"I saw him coming through the doors, and I took cover, and I waited for him to get closer...I identified myself, engaged him, and took him down."

-----

"I just prayed for the holy spirit to guide me...my hands weren't even shaking."

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_7684728

-----

Jeanne Assam, 42, a member of New Life Church, said she remained calm and focused by putting her faith in God during the intense, ear-splitting gunfight in Colorado Springs.

Armed with a handgun, she calmly confronted Matthew J. Murray, 24, who was armed with an assault rifle, two handguns and 1,000 rounds of ammunition, police said.

"It was scary," the former Twin Cities patrol officer said this afternoon at a Colorado Springs news conference. "I'll never forget the guns were so loud."

-----

Assam shot Murray dead after he ignored her commands to drop his weapon and fired on her.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/10/heroic-guard-it-was-just-me-gunman-and-god/

Taking cover is the proper procedure. BTW the article says there are 12 armed guards at the church. I did see an article on CNN which claimed the other guards were unarmed. I don't know how news media always manage to get their reporting so screwed up!

[pitohui]

59. sounds like this woman is a real hero

i started to read a little in this thread but it's too weird for me, seems to me there is nothing here to fight about, the woman did her job and very calmly and effectively took out a bad guy under conditions of great stress, thus saving many lives

if jesus would not be proud, jesus needs to look into his heart a little deeper

she done good and kudos to her

[AlCzervik]

93. "if jesus would not be proud, jesus needs to look into his heart a little deeper " huh?

[JVS]

108. ROFL! That's a DUzy

[malaise]

73. Well according to the lady

it was between god and the gunman. I'm having a WTF moment. Pardon me.