Is manditory filing of income tax forms negating your right to not incriminate yourself?

[Toots]

Voluntary Compliance is the term they use to make you file your taxes but the fifth ammendment says you have the right to remain silent and not incriminate yourself. Do these two contradict each other?

[hedgehog]

1. You forgot the 16th Amendment:

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.


There are a lot of people out there with all kinds of theories proving that the income tax is somehow illegal. A lot of them end up in jail.

Besides, as a communitarian, I applaud the theory of the income tax!

On edit : the application of the income tax does leave a lot to be desired!

[Toots]

I didn't forget anything, I asked a question which you avoided answering

Does manditory filing negate your right against self incrimination? yes or no...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

35. You failed to understand the answer, which is:

"it was, until they passed an Amendment."

[zanne]

2. Nice try.

What the IRS wants, the IRS gets.

[dysfunctional press]

3. incriminate yourself in what way?

nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. The way they got Capone.

He was finally convicted of not reporting income, thus cheating on his taxes. Of course, he could not claim that income because it came from bootlegging and racketeering, so to claim it he would have had to say "Income from selling illegal liquor".

Supposedly, IRS records are independent, and they could not use his tax form as evidence of committing crimes, as long as he properly reported all the income. Justice department and Internal Revenue are not supposed to share information. I don't know that anybody has ever really tested that - it's safer to not claim it and put it in offshore accounts.

[dysfunctional press]

16. it's not incriminating yourself if you file legally-

and if you don't file legally, you aren't incriminating yourself in a crime- you're committing one.

[wuushew]

4. You could always just pay the estimated assesment

however 9 times out of 10 that would end up costing you more money.

[theboss]

5. How is reporting income incriminating yourself?

I'm not following.

[Deep13]

6. Suppose you are a drug dealer.

You have to file a 1040 for that income, but doing so is self-incrimination. To avoid that legal dilemma, the law is that persons in unlawful businesses may file anonymously.

[theboss]

10. Self-incrimination is not defined that broadly

You could argue that Fingerprints or DNA samples or urine samples are "self-incrimination." But the courts have ruled differently. Self-incrimination is not the right to avoid providing any evidence from "your person."

[Deep13]

13. A statement admitting to drug dealing is a statement...

...for Fifth Amendment purposes even if it is in the form of a tax return. A physical sample is not a statement or confession. I is physical evidence like a car accident or a bullet.

[Katherine Brengle]

32. What drug dealer files a tax return?

lol

I have never heard of a drug dealer doing that.

[TechBear_Seattle]

7. Of what criminal action are you incriminating yourself?

The Fifth Amendment only applies if your statement or information might lead you to be blamed for a crime. Even then, the courts have been cautious in applying Fifth Amendment protections when it conflicts with necessary functions such as fighting crime (there are circumstances where you can be forced to provide fingerprints and DNA.)

Of what criminal actions might you be accused if you refuse to provide the requested information on your income tax forms?

[demnan]

8. This is a moot point for most of us

Filing my income taxes is a way to get my money back, not a way to pay more. They've already taken the money out of my paycheck without my consent.

[wuushew]

12. You are aware you can modify your withholding amount ?

the government is not forcing you do do anything. However there are costs and penalties for different tax situations. For 2006 I have no withholding penalty so I am going to owe Uncle Sam a rather large chunk of change.

[GreenZoneLT]

9. Nope. It's not a criminal investigation.

You have a right not to testify against yourself in criminal court. You don't have a right to decline to provide information in a civil matter (like income taxes), even if that information could lead to evidence that you committed a crime, because the question is not directly about a criminal act. In other words, they can ask you, "How much money did you make, and how?" but not, "Did you obtain this money through theft?" Question A is administrative, not accusatory or inquisitorial, which are the sorts of question the Fifth Amendment protects us from.

It's a fine line, but the short answer is no, the Fifth Amendment does not allow you to conceal the amount and source of your income from the IRS. Anyone who says different is trying to involve you in a criminal conspiracy to evade income tax. You may decline to answer questions about THAT.

[Virginia Dare]

11. No, it refers to criminal trials...n/t

[Deep13]

14. Nope, it refers to all involuntary confessions...

...including legally required tax returns if such a return would be admitting to a crime. Occupation: "hitman", "child pornographer", "cocaine dealer." That's a coerced confession that can be used against a defendant in a criminal trial. Of course failure to file a return is also an offense.

[Virginia Dare]

17. I still disagree...n/t

[Deep13]

22. SCOTUS disagrees with you. nt

[Virginia Dare]

25. Not the first time, won't be the last...n/t

[Deep13]

26. Yeah, no kidding.

Had they done their jobs, Al Gore would be president and we would not be at war.

[theboss]

20. Is there any case law on that?

Or are you just making an argument off the cuff?

[Deep13]

21. Yes, I read it in my law school Criminal Procedure class...

...I don't remember the case name, but the ruling was that requiring a defendant in an illegal trade to file a 1040 form was self-incrimination. The IRS responded with anonymous tax returns from criminals.

[trotsky]

18. You're distorting what the fifth amendment actually says, which is:

nor shall any person ... be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself

Is filing taxes equivalent to being tried in a criminal court case?

No.

[Deep13]

23. So, a tax return cannot be introduced at trial as a confession?

It can, therefore, the 5th Amend. applies.

[trotsky]

30. Go sue the government, then.

You obviously know the law and Constitution better than they do, eh?

[Deep13]

36. I'm not running secret prison camps or torturing prisoners.

So yeah, I know that part of the Constitution better than the hacks running the govt. or at least I care what it says.

Anyway, the remedy is exclusion of the confession or dismissal of income tax evasion charges. At least it would be if drug dealers etc. were not allowed to file anonymously.

[slackmaster]

19. Unless you have income from an illegal source, how could this be a problem?

:shrug:

[Deep13]

24. It is only a problem if you have income from an illegal source.

Reporting illegal income is a confession for 5th Amend. purposes.

[slackmaster]

27. Yes, and not declaring it (i.e. not paying taxes on it) is also illegal

:shrug:

[Deep13]

29. hence the dilemma...damned for reporting, damned for not reporting.

[trotsky]

31. Um, you're breaking the law.

Sorry for the inconvenience, but....

[Deep13]

34. No I'm not.

The fact that a confession might be true does not give the government the right to compel self-incrimination. Hate to tell you, but the right against self incrimination usually only protects the guilty. Small price to pay to avoid confessions by torture or other coercion.

[slackmaster]

33. That's one of many reasons I chose the path of goodness and niceness

Being a criminal creates too many conflicts.

[mnhtnbb]

28. Mandatory sit my ass in the chair and hate it time! I've been working on taxes all a.m.