I was raped but did not report it.

[demgurl]

I posted that I was raped (years ago) when we all posted about the Duke lacrosse case. It was traumatic enough that I actually blocked out the actual details and a girl I hung out with, at the party, I did not recognize a few days later. This girl was my ride so you would think I would remember her but it was just that traumatic. It was actually years before I could even use the word rape.

I did not report my rape because of a lot of reasons but mostly I was afraid of being examined as asking for it and the looks people might give me. I was sure I would not get the support I needed and the whole incident was traumatic enough as it was.

I had always wondered if I made the right decision. After the Duke lacrosse case I publicly stated I had made the right decision because people pointed fingers before all the facts were in and boy was the alleged rape victim judged. Several others who had been raped chimed in to say they agree and that we all would not report it if the incident ever happened again.

How many other crimes are committed where the victim is almost automatically knee-jerk blamed? Why does it matter what the person wore or their past history? If the crime was committed then the person is guilty.

This whole new thread came about from a thread earlier today. Someone posted about Rolling Stone writing about the Dateline NBC show 'To Catch a Predator'. There are always people in those threads defending the predator. Please watch the show before you post outrageous scenarios of entrapment since it either makes it look like you talk out your butt or that you have seen them but you are sympathetic to those who would rape a child and that just turns my stomach.

Reading that thread today made me sick. First of all, people asked who would watch those types of shows. It was alluded to, or said outright, that people who watch that show are sexual deviants who get off on it.

I watch that show and do so because of many reasons but none that include getting off on it. I find such statements outrageous and downright sick.

Then there were those who though the show was hilarious:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2571926#2572456

- It occasionally makes me think of the study that was conducted that showed how severely homophobic men often become aroused watching gay porn..

- It is a very, very funny and entertaining show, I must admit. The entire premise of the show is so wrong, and its artificial finger-wagging moral piety is so overbearing that I end up rooting for the sex offenders to get away. That host is a complete jackass. I'd love to see that little punk act pop off at the mouth the way he does WITHOUT security around to back him (I suspect he has too much sugar in his testes to really ......... There are some real creeps on the show, no doubt, but the Perverted Justice clowns and General Electric are way worse.

- And if the sex offender were to reply to the host by saying, "Well, aren't YOU special!", or "You know who made me do this? Could it be SATAN?", I think I would split a gut.

I am so aghast that there are people out there that find the crime of wanting to rape a child funny. There are some pedophiles on that show who have been arrested and convicted of things like this before and no doubt some of them have already raped children. I know what a lasting effect rape had on me, I can ot fathom what effect it would have on children.

So here I again have proof that I should never report a rape lest someone think I am to blame, the person was entrapped (after all, I am a woman and how could a guy hold his dick in his pants?) or that my whole story is funny. Even worse is finding someone who wants to stick there dick in a minor and finding that funny. I am totally offended and find nothing funny with the whole program or the would be child rapists. I am also offended as a woman, a rape victim, and a mother, to be questioned as to whether I might watch a show because I get off on it.

I do not know who you are as you do not know who I am, but please know that your comments have deep and serious consequences for people like me for whom your comments confirm I should never report a rape lest I get put on trial. Please know the ripple effect of your comments and the negativity you birth in this world. Please try and support those who might not be as strong as you are - like rape victims whether they are children or adults.

Thank you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. So why do you watch the show...

if not for entertainment?

[liberalnurse]

2. What your step...............

I'm right here watching you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Pardon?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

168. I really don't think you've got much business...

calling anybody else mean and hateful.

[BoneDaddy]

203. How about, knowing the often crass,insensitive environment

that DU can be, the OP NOT post such a sensitive topic if she doesn't want to get the occasional person with a differring point of view to upset the apple cart.

Post in a more sensitive, secure, emotionally safe venue if you don't want negative feedback. Being a rape victim does not mean that everything you say becomes right or accurate or cannot be criticized. I would have more respect for her had she kept that information to herself instead of using it to emotionally handcuff anyone with a differing opinion by qualifying it this way.

As for the show, I do think it is often voyeuristic for many, maybe even her. I do not watch it for that reason.

I do not weep for these "predators" but the couple of times I viewed it, they often appeared as lost, desperate, men and not the "child rapers" the OP wants to see them as. Don't get me wrong, perhaps some may be. Guilty of planning on violating statuatory rape dictates...SURE, but that is different than non-consenual violent rape. In these sad men's eyes they have a willing partner.

[demgurl]

210. I am sorry if it appears I have handcuffed anyone.

In all of my posts I have tried to be honest and straight forward. I have interacted with people who feel differently than I do but I do not believe I have gotten upset, told them off or called them names. I have tried to be very respectful so that the true message does not get lost.

I could post on a 'safer' forum but then that defeats the purpose of this whole thread. It is here that people are posting items that negatively impact rape victims and how are those people supposed to know the consequences of what they say if it is not brought to their attention.

Another point, of this thread, (not necessarily the OP but of the thread) is that rape victims are often made to feel the need to keep quiet and the more we all speak out the more acceptable it will be to speak about it as well as report that crime.

I wondered, in another post, if people found this funny because they feel the child is more than willing. I thank you for addressing that and, I assume, that you do not think it is a crime since it is 'consensual'. I will not discuss my differing opinion unless you want to come back and invite me to converse about it. After much reflection, the only way I could think it would be funny at all is if people felt no crime had been committed. You have confirmed this for me.

Being a rape victim does not mean everything I say is accurate or right but it does mean that if I express an opinion about how it effects people like me, and many people who were victims reiterate what I say, then perhaps there is legitimacy for what we echo for each other.

I hope no one you know ever gets raped. I hope if they do go through something that horrific that it will be in a time and place where they can stand proud knowing they did no wrong and send the guy to jail.

[BoneDaddy]

248. You do whatever you want

I think speaking out and educating people on rape is necessary. I just refuse to equate violent rape with every single "predator" on the show. I think it shows a lack of deep thinking and reacting emotionally wanting only to see black and white instead of acknowledging the gray areas. It is much more convenient to equate these men with the absolute worst rapists than to see that many are not. That is my point.

I never said a crime was not committed, I never said they were not predators. I think these men broke a law and should pay the price. I just don't think it is as black and white as you and others may see it.

I have known plenty of people who have been raped and their struggles are extreme. But I have also seen rape victims then use their rape/trauma/wounds to be "unassailable" and whenever confronted on their thinking or behavior, fall back on their trauma as a way to not ever be accountable for what they say or do, because no one wants to be seen as criticizing a rape victim.

Let's bring out the Duke "rape" case as an example. This case barely broke and people on these boards had already judged and convicted the young men, many because they have been raped or abused and their pain and anger made it impossible for them to be rational and really look at the case. I, confess, thought that they were guilty intitially, but after I payed attention to the case I realized that the prosecution was flimsy at best and as it turns out, illegal. But still in here there were plenty of people who WANTED SO BADLY to send these men to jail and if confronted on their ignorance of the case they would use their previous trauma and victimhood to justify their position and keep any critics at bay.

[demgurl]

270. The show is insignificant and has nothing, really, to do with my OP.

After talking to my husband a few days ago I finally realized why everyone kept talking about the show.

Just so you know (as I have stated below several times) I know these creeps on TCAP are not violent as a regular rapist normally is. I understand they are two different animals even though both are considered rape.

The whole point, for me, in this entire thread haas been to tell a certain small section, of this forum, that the way they talk when it comes to this subject makes rape victims not want to report rapes and confirms decisions we have made in the past.

Search my name and you will find I did not condemn the players or the alleged victim in the Duke case. I tried to stop people from prejudging explaining how prejudging either side can be detrimental to the whole process. I did specifically say that when people, back then, automatically condemned the stripped that that hurts rape victims and their ability to report a crime. I was a rape victim and I never once pounced on those boys. I can easily separate my case from others.

Part of the reason I brought up the Duke rape case first was so people would understand what I was saying had nothing to do with TCAP. My whole thread was about how actions and words of others shape rape victims feeling judged and hinder their ability to report such crimes. Nothing more, nothing less.

The only black and white I see (or meant to say) is that when we hear people laughing, blaming the victim or others, wishing a perp could run away and still be on the loose, this makes us feel as society has before - that people judge us when we are raped and if we do not want to go through that we better not report it.

[BoneDaddy]

272. No argument from me there

I agree with you.

[bettyellen]

232. a child who can consent to be "a partner" to a grownup ?? wake up! pedophiles don't want a partner

anyone who is a sane adult KNOWS THAT. they want a child, someone weaker and easier to control.
if they wanted an equal, they wouldn;t be stalking kids. wake the fuck up .
you can be symathetic to these ill predators without giving voice to this NAMBLA bullshit.

[BoneDaddy]

246. Come off the ledge

I am not justifying their behavior regardless of HOW MUCH you want it to be so, I just think it is a bit more complex than you WANT to see it. You want an easy, simple answer, one that you can get up on your high horse and feel powerful, justified and hateful. It isn't sympathy I am giving them, it is thinking a little bit deeper about the situation than you do.

[bettyellen]

249. oh please, talk about projecting "daddy" LOL... you want to make excuses

go ahead. but get over your persecution complex, there is no ledge, no high horse. these crimes often are what they are- the men are "lost" maybe but they are also hurting innocent people.
deeper my ass. yeah, they are a pedophiles desires are so... complex, so misunderstood. Gotcha.

[BoneDaddy]

250. Wow

you have some dark fantasies about things. Persecution complex? When did I ever say anything about being persecuted?

I think some counseling would be good for you.

As for my name, it is a reference to Jack the Pumpkin King from the Nightmare Before Christmas and not the sordid association YOUR mind thought up.

[bettyellen]

273. you're the one rationalizing sick "dark" behaviour - calling kids "partners". Fantasize all you

you want, but please spare us dark when it's you who is all too willing to get into the pervs' heads and justify their behaviour.
good fucking luck explaining that to the REAL dads, "Daddie". I'd love to see you try.

[Name removed]

274. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bettyellen]

276. oh bullshit. they KNOW they can;t obtain consent from a minor- even if you seem to forget it

you know rationally your arguement is rubbish.
i'm not fantasising about what you posted or where your symathies lie, sir. that's all on you. talks about needing help. Ick.
just ick.

[BoneDaddy]

277. Ick, just ick?

nuff said. Twit got banned? What a shame.

[Squatch]

5. Huh?

:shrug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

193. Too vague. Please fill in the blanks.

You're watching him for when he does _______ you'll do ________ .

Please, I'm curious.

[demgurl]

27. I do not watch it for the 'comedy' factor.

Why I watch it is no one's business but I will go ahead and answer anyway. I watch because I feel a lot safer with my own children as well as the many we have inside my family. It is nice to know that there are fewer thugs out there on the street trying to seduce children. It is nice to know this may make some thugs think twice. I feel good knowing someone is watching out for our children because I did not have that as a child. (read the Dateline thread about my many near-misses since I did not have a great Mom) I feel good knowing it may be one more person who will not have to go through what I went through. I feel lucky we did not have a computer because I might have been raped earlier or perhaps even murdered. I watch it because mostly because it is a safety blanket of sorts.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Comfort factor, eh?

Watching it makes you feel better?

[demgurl]

35. It makes me feel safer as a parent and a rape victim.

But as someone who was raped and almost fell prey to predators, at a young age, I do not find the show anything to laugh at. To me, rape is not a laughing matter.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Drug abuse is not a laughing matter either.

But the TV show COPS is both hilarious and morally bankrupt at the same time.

[bettyellen]

122. why would you equate drug (self) abuse with violent crime? kinda shows yourt values.

that was an ugly tip of your hand. truly.

[Hoof Hearted]

139. bettyellen, is that poor kitty in your pic still pissed at you?

Do you find mutilated rolls of TP at the foot of you bed? LOL. What the heck happened there?

[bettyellen]

229. she's actually a very contented cat, just ask Swag

she does however photograph really poorly.
Kudos to you for actually recognising her as feline, most people ask, what the Y%&%@ is that?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

167. It's weird, isn't it?

I guess it's because somebody's trying to equate laughing at a stupid TV with laughing at rape.

:shrug:

[bettyellen]

231. said show deals with people who are hoping to rape kids- and hoping to rape is funny?

as funny as watching a show some stoner fuck up?
rapist, stoner... same thing?
to you, perhaps.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

262. The fact that people get their jollies off watching that show...

is funny, yes.

We're laughing at them, not with them.

[bettyellen]

269. the OP isn't finding it funny, you are. ergo, your post is total bullshit.

i thought so.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demgurl]

196. My family has also gone through drug abuse....

and I do not find it funny. Someone close to me was addicted to crack. Rape and drugs are two totally different animals. The drugs on that show are mostly done (I assume) by adults. That is not funny, it is sad how their actions must effect their family but so be it.

Rape is a violent controlling act. Doubly so when done to a young child. I am not naive enough to think that these predators are caught their very first time. This means other times they did violate a young child, possibly a virgin. Heck, they may have even killed a child or two.

I am not sure why people find it so funny. This truly perplexes me. Perhaps people think these are victim less crimes. Maybe they feel that since a teen participates in the adult conversation then they are old enough to have sex. This might be the train of thought even though some children do not truly realize what they are getting into. Maybe the perp passes on a disease and maybe the child will never be able to get pregnant. Maybe the perp hurts or kills the child. Perhaps it is not always rape in the classic sense that the child is screaming the word 'no' but what happens when a perp travels four hours, after months of grooming a child, and then the child changes their mind? What happens when he forces himself on her anyway?

No, I just can not see what is funny about such things. I know it is not just me since others have chimed in and said the same thing. I still do not get it.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

166. Hey...

I'm just trying to figure out why anybody would watch that stupid, awful show.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

185. Have you ever wondered what if the show actually HELPS pedophiles get away with it?

By teaching them what NOT to do in chat rooms? I said it before and I'll say it again: such operations should be only conducted BY LAW ENFORCEMENT, IN SECRET. Not served on national TV to satisfy people's unhealthy urges.

You're getting a FALSE sense of security from the show, and, again I say, it's not healthy.

"Comfort" yourself with THAT.

(There's one thing I agree with you about: the show is not funny at all.)

[nonconformist]

189. I'd say it makes more of them gun shy to meet with a child they met online

For fear they'll end up on the show.

[mzmolly]

208. Do you ever watch a program for "information?"

Good grief, what an insensitive comment bornagin.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

212. I don't watch trashy shows like that for "information," no.

And the trashy shows I do watch, I don't justify with the argument "information."

"Good grief, what an insensitive comment bornagin."

It was a question, technically.

[mzmolly]

238. So you haven't watched, yet you call it 'trashy?'

That's interesting.

Regarding your question, I simply noted the lack of sensitivity - I assume you are single?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

259. Yup.

Also, sometimes I won't see a movie based on a preview, or read a book based on the blurb.

"Regarding your question, I simply noted the lack of sensitivity - I assume you are single?"

You'd be wrong.

[uppityperson]

4. I was beaten and raped and never reported it for the same reason.

I have thought about it many times, wondering if I did the right thing, deciding I did because, at the time, the rapist/beator was a "friend" of mine and I must've deserved it because I was female and accessible. Even now I wonder. I would now, but it would be difficult to do so especially for someone who is younger and less secure/not as uppity as I am.

[demgurl]

32. uppity, I am sorry you had to go through that..

I think the toughest part for me is when my mind turns on myself and wonders if I was to blame. I quickly sweep those thoughts away and know that no one can try me for my rape except myself, at this point, and that is something I refuse to do.

[uppityperson]

36. Thank you for this thread, and the same to you.

People need to talk about this, need to know how often it happens, why people don't report it, what happens if they do. Best wished to you too demgurl

[salin]

53. I didn't report being raped either,

it took years to begin to unstuff the event and start recognizing how seriously it had effected me. Once I finally came to terms with it, I started feeling guilty for not having reported it - because what if I had been able to prevent the guy from doing it to someone else? That thought has bothered me for years, as it seems doubtful to me that he would engage in the activity only one time in his life. But it was a long time ago, and I went through the same emotions that you and demgurl express in this thread.

It makes me deeply sad to read some of the blame the victim sentiments that creep into 'rape' threads. On the other hand, over the years at DU those voices have greatly dwindled in comparison to those voices expressing concern for victims and reflect the due serious tone that the crime is exceptionally serious, and life-altering to the victim.

I am sorry to read that we have this experience in common. I just hope and pray that in our life times the incidence of rape dwindles to the point where it is exceptionally rare (or better yet non-occurent.)

[liberalnurse]

6. You made your decision for what ever reason...

I am so glad you survived. Now, you can seek out counseling which I strongly suggest you do. Process feelings that you don't realize are there. Your trying to do it alone without professional support. I do not encourage this.....the TV show has "triggers" for you. I know this because you would not of posted it on a Board with friends as you have if something wasn't there.

Please, go check out support for PTSD.:loveya: :hug:

[demgurl]

41. At this point it is about 20 years behind me!

I appreciate your comments but I have come a long way. I can now use the 'rape' word and I gave up the 'victim' word so that my rapist would no longer have any hold over me.

Yoko Ono had a wish tree that you could submit wishes on and here are the basic wishes I submitted: I wished peace for my Dad who beat me when I was pregnant with my youngest child. I know his anger is something he has never been able to control and so I hope something enters his life so that he may know tranquility. For my Mom I wish true happiness and lots of love. I wrote that I knew she embezzled tens of thousands of dollars from me but that is because of her beliefs in material goods. I said I knew hopw lonely she must be and I hope she would find the path I have found in life. For my rapist I wrote that whatever demons he has I hope he forgave himeself and hope he finds what he needs to lead a life without whatever caused him to do what he did that night.

I have found forgiveness and wish a better path for those who have not treated me with respect in the past. This does not mean I find the subject funny or that there are no consequences to our actions. I know that my karma brought their actions to me but now they must deal with their karma for what they have done. I am never to be a part of that and do not want to be. I have dealt with my part and that is where it ends for me.

Thank you so much for your kind and warm words. You are wonderful.

In Metta,

demgurl

[xchrom]

7. while i'm sorry that happened to you -- it never should have --

i see another issue here.

you're more than bothered by people who aren't holding the same thoughts as you.
there are some crude, idiot people here -- but we can't let it bother us too much.

it's one thing -- a good thing -- to get mad and tell people to fuck off -- it's another to let it bother you too much.

[demgurl]

47. The only way you can EVER win a fight is with love and respect.

Violence begets violence. Love conquers all. These are the teachings according to Buddha.

If I tell someone to fuck off then I am disrespecting them. Instead, I choose to tell them how their actions effect other so that they may see how they harm others and perhaps they will be more aware of their actions.

What bothers me is being judged by society when someone else has committed a crime. What bothers me is that the chances of that crime happening again is nil but there are others out there who feel as I do exactly because of the type of sentiments expressed on this board. (your post is fine, please do not think I am pointing fingers)

If these people know that their actions restrain the law from doing it's duty when a rape victim refuses to talk then that is their karma. (it is anyway, but at that point they are aware of it) If they were not aware, perhaps they will think before they make such statements next time. I wish for our society to become liberated and women to be empowered to speak out without fear of any kind.

[Mojorabbit]

8. I was too

and did not report it. I was in his apartment and had had a few glasses of wine. I did not think I would be believed.

[demgurl]

49. Mojorabbit.....

I am so very sorry. No one should ever have to go through that nightmare. It is worse when you know aspersions would be cast upon you when you know you are totally innocent. No means no and it does not matter what you are wearing or drinking. :hug:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalnurse]

11. You are boldly correct.

:think:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

187. Hm, the moderators rightly didn't think so. But wait, do you agree that people who are against...

...DL:TCAP and Perverted Justice "just want to fuck little kids?" Don't shy away, tell us how you REALLY feel.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. LOL

And it's comments like that which is why people use the term "witch hunt."

Anybody who criticizes the magistrates is either in league with the devil, or the devil himself.

[varkam]

13. It couldn't be that...

anyone is concerned about tactics used by Perverted Justice, or the collusion of a civilian organization, law enforcement, and the media, could it? No...must be that they want to "fuck kids".

[ingac70]

19. Tactics??

Anybody actively seeking sex from kids on the internet, then showing up to get laid needs to go down. Why should I give a shit about them?

Hopefully it will embarrass some of them into not bothering.

[varkam]

20. I was merely pointing out the logical fallacy that was inherent in your bomb throwing.

There are reasons other than wanting to "fuck kids" that people might be concerned about the show.

[tigereye]

78. thank you Varkam...

[dsc]

What if they repeatedly say they are 18

and then when the person shows up they claim not to be? I am not saying that is what they are doing but they could for all we know.

[demgurl]

52. There are transcripts on their site so everything is recorded.

They have not done anything like that. I have read one or transcripts on their site. (I couldn't take any more than that) And I have seen the show. It would be easier if we all dealt with the reality of the situation.

One reality is that rape is just not funny. I am not sure why people think it is.

[dsc]

67. I won't watch the show

and also don't visit the website. One big reason is that I could easily get too invested in the issue myself. At 14 I had an affair with a 20 something year old man. In all honesty, I am some responsible since I really did persue it. But, as a civil libertarian I do have a major problem with vigilante justice. When prosecutors refuse to use their cases it should be a red flag.

[ingac70]

102. The Prosecutors in Texas...

didn't want to pursue it because a former Prosecutor, one of their buddies, got caught up in it...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/us/07pedophile.html

[dsc]

106. that is your take

but the article says no such thing. It should be noted that the prosecutor is dead and was dead when the decision not to prosecute was made.

[ingac70]

110. Whatever...

This has been the only instance where there were no convictions from an operation conducted by that show. The good old boys didn't want to slander their dead pervy friend, so a bunch of other scum got set free.

Talk about red flags...

[dsc]

113. that is false

There has been at least one other case where there were no convictions (I think Florida). In any case the motive that you ascribe may be right or it may not be. I like evidence before I convict people even of having bad motives.

[ingac70]

124. No it isn't... Fort Meyers Florida....

Fort Myers, Florida

As with the Ohio investigation, the fifth investigation was aired in two one-hour-long parts in May 2006, forming the second half of the month-long series of To Catch a Predator specials. The operation was based in Fort Myers, Florida and saw 24 men arrested in three days. Among the more notable moments in the investigation was the arrest of a man who had brought along his five-year-old son to the house, creating a challenge for arresting officers who did not want to traumatize the boy. Another man had asked a decoy posing as a 14-year-old if she was willing to have oral sex with a cat. She replied that she would do so on the condition that he would strip naked after entering the house. He did so and was immediately confronted by Hansen. He was the second featured predator to strip naked in the house to date. Another man arrived at almost 4am, but refused to enter the house, trying to talk the girl into getting in his car with him. After pleading with her for over 30 minutes, he gave up and walked to his car where he was arrested. Another man confessed that he was "guilty of whatever's there" (the transcript) and admitted that he should receive the death penalty. Another duped his sister into driving him to the sting house and waiting for him in the car while he intended to have sex with a 14-year-old girl.

This segment resulted in 21 convictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Catch_a_Predator

Flagler Beach, Florida

In December 2006, Perverted-Justice worked with the police department in Flagler Beach, Florida to arrest 21 men over four days, and the sting was filmed again by Dateline. Aware that potential predators might be reluctant to show up at a house primarily due to repeated Dateline investigations, the crew set up a second location at the beach directly across the street from the house. This second location was also rigged with cameras and microphones and had police hiding in a bunker below the deck. Some of the men arrested included a retired truck driver who claimed that he lied during his chat log about wanting to have sex with the underage girl because he is no longer able to achieve an erection, a Taekwondo intructor who masturbated on webcam for the decoy with whom he chatted, and a sheriff's deputy from Alabama who was arrested in a vehicle containing an arsenal of weapons. In one case, two potential predators arrived within five minutes of each other, resulting in Hansen conducting the first dual interview of predators who had each made separate appointments for sex. This investigation aired on February 27 and March 6, 2007, and resulted in 21 guilty pleas.

[redqueen]

159. Do you have a source for this? This is VERY alarming.

I've read numerous people on this site saying that the show's tactics are bad because they are sloppy and allow perps to go free when they might have been convicted if the investigation were conducted "properly".

Now you're saying there are MAYBE two cases which have come out that way.

This is very, very alarming.

[dsc]

24. What if they repeatedly say they are 18

and then when the person shows up they claim not to be? I am not saying that is what they are doing but they could for all we know.

[ingac70]

26. That isn't what goes off...

They have chat records of the "kids" telling the perp they are 11, 12,... up to 15, and the perp asking for sex even after being told their age.

[dsc]

44. We have no idea what they do and that is the problem

They are literally unaccountable since entrapment doesn't apply to them. As pointed out below, we always lose our liberties by having problematic methods applied to horrible crimes (like terrorism) and then they get applied to all crimes.

[ingac70]

46. The chat record is the evidence....

That is what they use to convict.... They show the chat on the show.

I don't ask folks claiming to be 12 to give me directions to their house so I can have sex with them, so perhaps I just don't "understand".

[varkam]

48. PJ doesn't always save or, if they do, turn over the chat records.

Sometimes they will turn over chat records, but incomplete records. In many cases, the only piece of evidence that was used to convict these individuals was the televised confession - just after meeting Hansen. A DA in Texas recently refused to prosecute some 24 of these individuals on the basis of insufficient evidence.

[ingac70]

58. ....

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/060707dnmetsexsting.36ff8b8.html

<But to prosecute the cases in Collin County, Mr. Davis said in an interview Wednesday, the suspect or intended victim must be using a computer in the county or the Internet discussion must have run through a server in the county.

"If none of those are present that communication did not occur here and we can't prosecute even with a confession. They can confess here, but if a crime didn't happen here," Mr. Davis said. "In the majority of these cases that was the case." >

[varkam]

135. Here you go:

Then, last month, Collin County District Attorney John Roach dropped all charges. He said that in 16 of the cases, he had no jurisdiction, since neither the suspects nor the decoys were in the county during the online chats.

As for the rest of the cases, he said neither police nor NBC could guarantee the chat logs were authentic and complete.

Link

[dsc]

50. I have a problem with unaccountable law enforcement

Will it always be abused? Of course not. But it will sometimes be abused. I would vastly perfer that professional law enforcement do this without the cameras. This is a serious crime. We wouldn't let private people go on TV to enforce our murder laws. We should have this.

[Chovexani]

40. Here's why you should give a shit about them

Questionable police tactics can be used against anyone, for any crime. All they need to do is introduce such tactics as a method of busting pedos/terrorists/anyone everyone hates, get people riled up with emotional appeals so they'll support it, and then quietly broaden the net.

See also: wiretapping, tasing and waterboarding.

Bread and circuses for a complacent public. And the beat goes on.

[ingac70]

45. .....

They go on the internet telling people who claim to be twelve they want to have sex with them, and arranging a meeting! It's really simple.

Some folks seem to forget that these predators do this because they actually are having sex with children they meet on the internet.

I reckon they need to walk in on Jr. blowing a middle aged man to understand.

[TransitJohn]

74. Because if you deserve

civil rights, so do they.

[ingac70]

103. I wasn't aware asking kids for sex was a civil right. n/t.

[dsc]

108. so we should search houses without warrents

since drug use isn't a civil right. I could eradicate drug use tomorrow if you gave me that right.

[ingac70]

112. Where does it say doing kids is a civil right? n/t.

[dsc]

116. where does it say drug use is?

Again, let me use draconian methods and I can eradicate any crime you choose. No crime is a civil right, but we have a right to not have the government use illegal methods to enforce the law.

[ingac70]

120. .....

You mistakenly presume I used drugs. I do not, partially because they are illegal, but mainly because they make me feel like shit.

Drugs are bad, kiddie fiddling is even worse! Folks that do either do so at their legal peril!

[dsc]

121. No

but would you be willing to have your house searched each day by police so we know you aren't doing drugs, plotting terror attacks, or raping kids? or is that only for other people?

[ingac70]

127. If I announce I'm growing weed in a chat room...

or plotting to blow up people and talking about it online....then I'll get what I asked for. I mean, the evidence would be right there. Probable cause.

[dsc]

128. Unless of course I decided to edit your post

taking out if I announce and send that to the police. We have no idea what editting has or hasn't been done which is one of my points.

[ingac70]

132. The funny thing about web chats....

Is there are records of it far removed from those involved in the chat itself....

[GOPBasher]

225. I don't have the slightest clue why people think this is "draconian" or fascist.

If they were breaking into their house or wiretapping their phones without a warrant, then they would be infringing on their civil rights. But these people actually seek out the "kids," and ask them for sex. Why the hell is arresting them for that an infringement on their rights?

[dsc]

239. We have no idea what they did

because we have to trust these people not to abuse their considerable, and unaccountable power.

[Riktor]

119. No, but DUE PROCESS is!

In pursuing pederasts in a for-entertainment, extra-judicial manner, this farce of a show is denying people, however fucked up they may be, of their constitutional right to due process. In televising the whole affair, making evidence public knowledge PRIOR to the arraignment, much less the actual trial, this show is severely limiting the alleged perpetrator's access to an impartial jury.

[uppityperson]

194. Are you saying luring someone into a sting and warrentless searches are equal?

[TransitJohn]

114. WTF??

You may need to reread the post I was replying to. Your passive aggressive attack on my post sucks. Weak sauce.

[varkam]

138. That's not what the poster was getting at, and you know it.

Or maybe you don't.

[redqueen]

158. What civil rights are being denied? (nt)

[demgurl]

51. I know you are answering to someone else but .....

I would like to say that the main point of the thread I started was that when people find things such as child rape funny that it can effect all rape victims and as a former rape victim I find it offensive that such a thing would be funny to people.

Just trying to get the thread back on track and make a point.

[Two Americas]

66. very clear

Your point was made very well, and I thank you for making it.

[varkam]

136. I understand that.

But when someone accuses those who think differently from them as being rapists themselves, well I figure I ought to say something.

[demgurl]

148. I understand the need to defend one's self.

I just was trying to get back to the original topic. I hope I did not come off as being less than sympathetic to your view. That was not what I intended.

[alarimer]

17. That's bullshit

Total fucking bullshit.

That show is disgusting filth and anyone who watches it is too.

See I can do what you just did.

[ingac70]

37. Defending the rapist....

Like the original poster said.....

<>This whole new thread came about from a thread earlier today. Someone posted about Rolling Stone writing about the Dateline NBC show 'To Catch a Predator'. There are always people in those threads defending the predator. Please watch the show before you post outrageous scenarios of entrapment since it either makes it look like you talk out your butt or that you have seen them but you are sympathetic to those who would rape a child and that just turns my stomach.

[The Doctor.]

216. OMG... You MUST be a CHILD MOLESTOR!!!

LMAO. No, of course not.

I'm very amused that so many people call you a 'rapist' or 'child molestor' for finding the show repugnant. I too find the show repugnant. I made it through one whole episode once and was pretty disgusted with both the perps and the 'host'. It was like that one show "Cheaters" with that self-righteous pinhead Richard Greco. I only watched it in hopes he'd get his nose broken.

I have little or no sympathy for the perps on TCAP, but the show feeds on generating mostly misplaced and unecessary hatred.

In human development, the urge to have sex with a sexually mature person is hard-wired into us. I personally do not find 14 or 15 year-old girls sexually attractive, but it's a virile age, and therefore 'in bounds' as far as evolution is concerned. Even though we have come to a point where such pursuits are detrimental to and prohibited by society, society cannot override several million years of evolution. Giving in to such impulses may be counter to society and good sense, but it's not monstrous all by itself.

Attraction to sexually undeveloped children is a very different problem that has no roots in mutual sexual expression or evolutionary impetus. It is therefore a purely predatory practice... no matter how 'nice' the perp may seem.

These shows quite fail to make such distinctions.

The people that fall for these 'traps' are idiots, and I know a simple technique any of them could use to turn the show on it's head and forever escape prosecution... but I want some of these assholes caught, so I dare not say.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. LOL

Damn, wish I'd thought of that.

[Evoman]

73. Bullshit. That show is terrible.

Most (maybe all?) of the people caught by the show were not found guilty. Justice should not be entertainment. The law should be non-profit, and handled by law enforcement only. There are legitimate concerns with that show....as much as I like to fuck little kids (:eyes:), my major concern is with this merging of entertainment and tabloid media with law enforcement.

[ingac70]

101. Most (maybe all) are not convicted??

120 scumbags have been CONVICTED because of that show. Some more are awaiting trial....

[Warpy]

10. I worked with someone who reported her rape, prosecuted,

and got him put away for five years. She said if it ever happened again, she wouldn't report it, the system is still that hostile to women.

Reporting a rape carries the possibility of getting a serial rapist (and most are) off the streets for a few years. However, women report that the system rapes them all over again. Defense attorneys don't respect shield laws and exceed the bounds of questioning all the time. Their whole aim is to win, not to cut the healthiest deal for a guilty client.

Rape is difficult and traumatic to prosecute because the legal system designed and run by men likes it that way. The sensationalized (and rare) cases where women have made false charges are used by men to reinforce the system that is so unfair to women.

As long as men see themselves as predators and women as prey, they will continue to rape and think that behavior is normal and understandable. The laws that protect women who have been victimized will be circumvented and there will be no punishment for defense attorneys who do it.

Until men change their basic paradigm and see rape for what it is, a crime of violence and humiliation and the worst thing you can do to another human being short of killing him/her, nothing will change. Only a tenth of rapes will ever be reported and only a fraction of those prosecuted, with still fewer resulting in conviction. Men would rather protect rapists than protect women and children.

[varkam]

18. "Men would rather protect rapists than protect women and children."

:wtf:

[knitter4democracy]

118. The comment makes sense.

The court system was made up by men, the laws about rape written and enforced by men, and the power still lies with men for the most part. If men really wanted to protect women and children from rape, the laws and enforcement would be different.

My SIL was drugged, kidnapped, and brutally raped (she needed stitches) by a friend of a friend. Her friends tracked her down and got her out of there before he made good on his promise to kill her, and she's safe today. She won't press charges, though, since she was the one out partying with her friends, she was the one wearing a slightly revealing outfit, and she's the one who took the drink. She knows what will be done to her in court, and she just can't go through that.

[varkam]

137. Good god.

I'm not saying that there are not problems inherent in the system, especialy as concerned with sex-crime prosecutions and victims' rights - but to generalize that to saying that men simply want to protect rapists? Good god - that's got to be one of the most repugnant, sexist things that I have read on DU in quite some time (apologies to Warpy). There's a right inherent in our system of law that the accused gets to face the accuser. Now I agree that defense lawyers will sometimes step over the line in trying to be a zealous advocate, and appropriate sanctions should be in place for just such occasions - but are you seriously defending the view that all men want to protect rapists by virtue of them having penises? Why don't the male cops just let rapists go? Why don't the male judges just release them? Why don't the male prosecutors just resign in protest?

I hope you can see how a comment like that is sexist and might be offensive to, you know, men who have been raped themselves (for example). Oh wait, I forgot, men can't be raped.

[eridani]

142. Or maybe instead of actively wanting the current misogynist system--

-they don't not-want it very badly because it isn't any skin of their asses?

[knitter4democracy]

161. Two things:

1. The male powers that be obviously don't include all men in that. Not all men are judges, not all men are prosecutors, not all men write the laws. I'm sorry I wasn't clear on that. In our patriarchal system, most men don't have much power except in the home (if then--it depends on the home situation). They're not bosses, they're not judges, they're not lawyers, etc.

The reality is, though, the vast majority of those in power is male. It's not like women have an equal say in Congress or the Supreme Court or most state legislatures. Women's issues are considered less important (do we have national health care and a national day care system yet, paid maternity leave, or heck, a law mandating every insurance plan to pay for our health issues?) by the men in power, and they sure don't seem to give a crap about rape victims. In our adversarial system, the victim is victimized all over again. I have never heard of a defense lawyer not stepping over the line and blaming the victim (male or female), and I have personally been told by a judge that I was lying simply because I was a woman. Trust me, the powers that be don't give a crap about us.

2. I would never, ever say that men could never be raped. What a terrible thing to say. I have never understood radical feminists who posit that argument. Belittling a man's pain, just because he's a man, is evil. Men have it hard enough, for crying out loud, that they don't need women making it even harder. The patriarchal system doesn't benefit most men, either. Feminizing a man makes him less in our culture (everything from calling him female names to telling him he throws "like a girl" to raping him and making him take it like a woman), and those in power or those wanting power make sure to use that particular tool to hang onto power. It's in their best interest to keep the status quo and just talk the talk but not do a darn thing to change anything.

[varkam]

219. Okay.

The reality is, though, the vast majority of those in power is male. It's not like women have an equal say in Congress or the Supreme Court or most state legislatures. Women's issues are considered less important (do we have national health care and a national day care system yet, paid maternity leave, or heck, a law mandating every insurance plan to pay for our health issues?) by the men in power, and they sure don't seem to give a crap about rape victims. In our adversarial system, the victim is victimized all over again. I have never heard of a defense lawyer not stepping over the line and blaming the victim (male or female), and I have personally been told by a judge that I was lying simply because I was a woman. Trust me, the powers that be don't give a crap about us.


Okay, I think I'm a bit more clear on what the issue is now. I agree with you that much of the world we live in is based on a patriarchial power structure, but I don't think the conclusion follows that men in power don't care about rape victims. Rapists are often given quite lengthy sentences and, in fact, rape is among the very few non-murder crimes for which people are sitting on death row.

As far as the adverserial system is concerned, as I said I think that there are probles but there needs to be a balance struck between the right of a victim and the right of the accused. That's, of course, where things get hairy is in trying to maintain that balance. Under the constitution, the accused has the right to face his or her accuser in court and the accused also has a right to effective counsel. Those two things are bedrock. There are rape shield laws in place as a means to the end of protecting the rights and dignity of victims who go through the legal system, but I agree that more can and should be done. As far as what that is...well, hell if I know. I'm not someone who knows a lot about anything, really - I just play one on the internets.

[femrap]

206. Yep....rape could end if there were

the WILL to end it. Non-rapist men have to step up...that means no more laughing at rape jokes and taking the opportunity to TALK and EDUCATE other males about the crime of rape. Rapists hate women.

At drunken parties when rapists are having intercourse with a passed-out women and the non-rapist males stand around doing nothing...that calls for a 'WTF?'

[varkam]

220. Stop tossing bombs.

At drunken parties when rapists are having intercourse with a passed-out women and the non-rapist males stand around doing nothing...that calls for a 'WTF?'

No. What calls for a 'WTF?' is the insinuation that all men would rather protect rapists than women and children. If you can't see the difference between that and the situation that you offer up...well, I'm sorry.

[femrap]

242. Why do certain males always use the

excuse that ALL males don't do that? As I said, rape would end if there was the WILL to do so....and it is males who can stop it...males are the rapists. Get it?

Are you saying that it's OK to rape a women who is passed out from drinking? She doesn't deserve protection? You think necrophilia is OK as well?

You're just another one of those standing around not wanting to get involved...another one who has no will.

[varkam]

243. So every rape is somehow my personal fault?

excuse that ALL males don't do that? As I said, rape would end if there was the WILL to do so....and it is males who can stop it...males are the rapists. Get it?

Women cannot be rapists? Ever? At all? Really? I guess those cases of female teachers molesting their students is somehow collectively mens fault as well.

Are you saying that it's OK to rape a women who is passed out from drinking? She doesn't deserve protection? You think necrophilia is OK as well?

Where did I say that it is okay to rape a woman who is passed out from drinking? Where did I say she does not deserve protection? How is any of that related to necrophilia? What the hell are you smoking?

You're just another one of those standing around not wanting to get involved...another one who has no will.

You know nothing about me, the work I do, or the values that I hold and yet you assume that I have no will to work towards prevention of sexual violence? Simply because I have the audacity to call out a comment that paints all men with the same brush as trash? You pretty much stopped just short of calling me a rapist myself. That's not very nice.

I'll spell it out once again for you. I took offense to the assertion that men would rather protect rapists than protect women and children. Does that really not strike you as sexist at all? Could you not see how that might be offensive to, you know, male rape victims (I mean, assuming that men can, in fact be raped :eyes:).

[femrap]

254. I have no idea

why you are taking my comments so PERSONALLY. I certainly don't take it personally when a woman has sexual relations with a consenting minor male.

And you know nothing of me, as well.

As for statistics on rape of women vs. male...? Well...let's just generalize a bit...males are 95% of the prison population. Do you take that statistic personally as well?

It's NOT about you. Are you familiar at all with rape of a young woman at D'Anza College?


I believe that the 'good guys' need to step up and educate their brothers about rape. That means discussing violent pron, jokes concerning rape, and date rape. If you don't do that, I feel you complicit in continuing the violence against women.

And maybe women don't want protection as much as they want respect. If we had that, maybe we wouldn't need to be protected?

I believe you think that you mean well...but your consciousness could be elevated a bit as all of our consciousnesses can. Right?

[Heidi]

257. You need to step up and search the DU archives before you accuse varkam of being a rape apologist.

What you're doing here is misinformed, misguided and, since you haven't used the DU search function to background varkam, seemingly mypopic.

[varkam]

265. Are you at all serious?

Why am I taking it personally? Because you made it personal by accusing me of being some sort of rape apologist. If you forgot about that, you can go back and re-read your post.

And you know nothing of me, as well.

Yes, but I'm not the one who's calling names here.

I believe that the 'good guys' need to step up and educate their brothers about rape. That means discussing violent pron, jokes concerning rape, and date rape. If you don't do that, I feel you complicit in continuing the violence against women.

And you have no idea whether or not I do. I suppose it's just easier to assume that I do not, and then heap your righteous indignation upon me. I suppose it feels better than having a reasonable discussion.

I believe you think that you mean well...but your consciousness could be elevated a bit as all of our consciousnesses can. Right?

I'm not saying at all that I am perfect, but there you go assuming more things that you don't know the first thing about. And you wonder why I take some of the things you say personally.

[Heidi]

247. femrap, you need to check yourself.

varkam is one of the good guys, and _nowhere_ in _any_ of his posts has he implied any of the BS you're claiming. Fact is, he's absolutely the opposite of your assessment.

[femrap]

253. All I read was his response to my post...

and it appeared to me that he didn't get my point of what rape is nor did he respond to males stepping up to educating other males about rape.

This is the first time I have encounter varkam. I have no idea of what he believes.

Please read his response to my post again. It reads as if protecting women and children is a male's job, but helping a victim (such as the young woman from D'Anza College) has nothing to do with a male protecting a woman who is passed out from drinking....

Please reread it. Thx.
'

[Heidi]

255. I've re-read his responses. I was a Mod with him for more than a year.

I know the guy, and I suggest that you might to rely on more than one encounter with a fellow DUer before you smear that person. You have a donor star and you could have searched DU's archives, if you were willing, to learn varkam's posting history. You didn't do that. You smeared a fellow DUer without even troubling yourself to do the legwork to find out if he is what you claim he is. That's disappointing.

[femrap]

258. I didn't smear him....

why are you taking this so PERSONALLY? I am trying to discuss rape and why our culture allows it? It is a widely discussed topic of males stepping up to educate other males on violence against women.

I, too, am disappointed. This is not about varkam, nor you. I don't understand why you are being so defensive.

Are you telling me that I have to research all DUers that respond to me before I answer their post? I don't know what your agenda is.

I am no longer interested in trying to raise your or his consciousness. You must be very young and/or close minded/ego-centric to other ways of looking at our culture and what to do to change it.

Good luck.

[varkam]

263. You don't think so?

You're just another one of those standing around not wanting to get involved...another one who has no will.

Hmm.

I find it funny that you claim you're trying to "raise consciousness", "discuss rape and why our culture allows it", and ask why everyone is taking things so personally when you can't go one post without tossing some kind of ad hominem attack out (ie "You must be very young and/or close minded/ego-centric to other ways of looking at our culture and what to do to change it.").

Good luck, indeed.

[kalibex]

260. Typical.

I like how you don't even bother in that post to say something like, 'Yeah, men who don't support the crime of rape should speak out against the men (like the kind of guys who would take advantage of women at frat parties) who do rape...'

...you just harp on and on with your righteous idignation over that 'Men care more about protecting each other than ending the practice of rape' statement.

Kinda shows right there where your priorities are.

And alot of you guys wonder where those 'Men seem to care more about protecting their fellow men from punishment than about about ending rape' assertions came from.

Case in point.


You're far too busy feeling sorry for yourselves in public over feeling 'accused'. :eyes:


-B

[varkam]

264. .

I like how you don't even bother in that post to say something like, 'Yeah, men who don't support the crime of rape should speak out against the men (like the kind of guys who would take advantage of women at frat parties) who do rape...'

Because I figure that goes without saying. Also, I was kind of upset and offended by the remark that I read. That being the case, that particular remark was the one that I wanted to address. I apologize if my posting style does not live up to your high standards. The comment that I was addressing appeared to be accusing all men of being complicit in rape - something that struck me as particularly sexist and vile. I'm sorry if you can't see why that might possibly be offensive to men, say, who have been raped themselves.

Kinda shows right there where your priorities are.

Uh-huh. It's fascinating how you can claim to know so much about me from a couple of my posts on the internet.

You're far too busy feeling sorry for yourselves in public over feeling 'accused'.

You, like the other poster, know nothing about me, the work I do, or the values I hold. I am offended that you would presume such things about me, as I'm sure you would be offended if I presumed the same things about you.

[kalibex]

266. ...

"Because I figure that goes without saying."

Well, you figure wrong.

"I am offended that you would presume such things about me..."

We go based on what you're posting here in this thread. If you feel we've concluded in error, then be clearer.

-B

[varkam]

268. Did I condone rape anywhere in this thread? eom

[Madam Mossfern]

21. I was raped more than thirty years ago

by a stranger who broke into my apartment. I reported it but the police never found the rapist. It was very violent and I was told that I would be killed afterwards while a knife was pressed to my neck. Yes I reported it, but I tell very few people because of how uncomfortable it makes them feel. My parents were ashamed to tell their friends. We think that we are a forward society but the shame of being raped has never disappeared.

It is even difficult to bring it up on an anonymous internet forum.

[demgurl]

55. Madam, you did nothing wrong.

No matter how others act around you, I hope you know that I am right. I say this even though it rings hollow for my own situation. As I mentioned above, every now and then my mind turns on me and I wonder if I was responsible. No, sadly we are not a forward society but if I sit in silence I feel as if my rapist has won. I will not be silenced when I have done nothing wrong. I will not sit here quietly being a good girl when the more we speak out the more others will have to accept the true reality of the situation.

I know it is hard. Good luck, my friend.

[Thirtieschild]

60. Sometimes the system does work

Our daughter was raped 20 years ago by a serial rapist. She was the one they had proof of, so her case was the one which went to trial. The rapist wanted to plead it down and everyone - the other victims, the police, the prosecutor - agreed but our daughter said no, if she let him plead to a lesser offense it would say what happened to her wasn't important. He was sentenced to 20 years and got the standard DNA test when he got out of prison. He thought the test results would only be available in North Carolina, so went to DeKalb Co GA to rape again. Our daughter, who now lived in NY, was apparently traced through her social security number because DeKalb prosecutors called and asked her to testify against him at this trial, which she did. The irony - she was raised in DeKalb Co.

[demgurl]

65. Bless you for being such good parents.

One reason I did not report my rape was that my Mom would have asked what I did to facilitate the actions. This is not faulty reasoning as she had punished me for gouging my Uncle's drunken friend when he would not remove his hands from my body. She said I could have moved away from him. I was about 16 and the guy was about 33. Years later that same guy was imprisoned for have sexual relations with a child he was being a big brother to. I silently wondered if now she believed what I had said and perhaps wished that she had kicked him out of the house instead of welcoming him back again and again.

I am really glad things worked for your daughter. Of course, for things to work you have to report the rape and a lot of us are not willing to commit ourselves to the torment that can cause.

Keep your daughter safe and always let her know you love her.

[NC_Nurse]

14. Happens all the time. Still.

I cannot tell you how many women I know or have cared for that have been raped or sexually abused who did not report it for fear of retribution, blame, humiliation, or worse.

Sad, but true.

I hope you have gotten support/therapy for what you went through. It helps to work through the baggage, it really does. I can tell you so from personal experience. :hug:

[demgurl]

70. It is hard to imagine the true rape statistics.

Time and spiritual advancement has been my therapy. I did not want to even face the event at first so I broke off relationships with my best friend and my boyfriend. My boyfriend was insisting I needed help so I broke up with him and hung up the phone never to speak to him again. I hope you are doing well. :hug:

[NC_Nurse]

89. I am. Many years and a boatload of therapy later...

Not just about that issue, my family was a cluster too...

My best to you.

:hi:

[demgurl]

149. Looks like we live in the same state.

I hope life is now treating you well and my best to you as well.

[laylah]

15. First may I offer

many, many :hugs: I have been in your shoes and responded in the same fashion. I find the "...Predator" show disgusting, and the people (men) caught in the act repugnant. I agree with your assessment. Those that would find something so abominable as wanting sex with a child (child rape) amusing or entertaining might find some introspection beneficial. Again demgirl, :hug: It takes great courage to tell such a story. Especially in such a venue!

[demgurl]

75. Thank you laylah. (love the name)

I assume being in my shoes means we have been through roughly the same thing. :hug: I think that when you do something that is right then you should do it without a second thought and the courage will come along when you need it. I do not feel as though I have been brutally attacked or called names in this thread so either people do not know this is about TCAP or perhaps (hopefully) they are rethinking what they have said and if they did it just to mix things up they are re-evaluating their actions. If they truly meant what they said then I am deeply saddened. :hug:

[dsc]

16. One can have serious problems with both the Duke case and these shows and still find rape a serious

crime. Certainly in retrospect the Duke case was a mess. A woman who clearly had issues was used by a prosecutor to win an election. I feel sorry for both her and the men she accused as they all were victims of a prosecutor gone mad. As for the predator thing. I have a great concern with vigilante justice. I can easily see how this process can be abused with virtually no accountability.

I hope you are OK today. I am truely sorry for what happened to you. One of the great tragedies of the Duke case is that it will serve as exhibit A for everyone who wishes to deny every rape. That is the cruelest of all.

[demgurl]

80. dsc....

I have no problem with someone validly questioning methods of such a group. But when one uses questions in such a way to cast aspersions on anyone who watches it, then I have a problem. When one uses questions to put down others who watch it, I have a problem. When someone laughs at it and thinks it is funny, I have a problem when it is a very serious subject.

I had a problem with the Duke case before the female was found to have lied. I told everyone that they should not jump to conclusions on either side and it made me especially sad when so many people posted they blamed her before knowing the facts. This is blaming her as she should not have been there or been dancing so it is her fault. I also stated that if she is lying I was saddened because it makes it that much harder for a real rape victim to be believed. And if the Duke players did it I said it was awful that they were dragging her name through the mud. I specifically stated we should wait for results and see what the truth of the case was.

Thank you for a well thought out and respectful post. Also, thank you for your kind words.

[dsc]

82. thank you

The Duke case was a real heartbreaking mess. I live east of Raleigh so I sure heard a lot about it. Nyfong let ambition cloud his judgement and a whole lot of people paid for it. I just hope all involved are getting the counciling they need. And I also hope you are.

[demgurl]

83. I am in NC so I know what a hot topic this was.

I am about 20 years past getting counseling but am doing fine at this moment in time. In fact, I do not believe I have ever been better.

[dsc]

85. I am glad for that

and yea I guess you got your fill of that case too. All I could think was at least I don't live in Durham.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

178. While Nyfong is scum

She went to him accusing people of rape..

[shadowknows69]

22. Thank you for this post demgurl

I honestly haven't even followed the thread in question, but all your stories touched me. So, for what it's worth, Dem, Mojo, Upppity and anyone else, thank you for surviving and blessing us with your presence and insight. I have several people close to me in my life that have endured this nightmare too.

[demgurl]

86. You are welcome.

I hope the people close to you find peace.

[undeterred]

25. People on this board can be really insensitive.

I was rescued from an attempted rape many years ago. At the time I had no intention of reporting it. The reason I reported it was because the young men who rescued me were kind and smart and aware enough to help me realize in those first few minutes that my attacker could do this to someone else, and that I could save someone else by reporting it. They wanted to report it, but they knew it would not do much good unless I did. Reporting it changed my life and my awareness- I could just as easily have walked away. Instead I helped send him to to prison.

I wish that you had been rescued, as I was, or at least that someone was there for you to help you in those first few minutes, which can make all the difference. There's nothing funny about it. There are good people in this world.

[demgurl]

81. Wow! I have never 'met' someone who was rescued.

I am so glad there are people like that out there. You are to be commended for your bravery in reporting it. I am very glad he was sent to prison.

I know there are good people in the world - I am married to one of them!

[Der Blaue Engel]

111. Meet another one

:)

I assume it was an attempted rape that I was rescued from; I'll never really know. At the point when my rescuers drove by and stopped it, he had "only" beaten me, but I had thrown my backpack on the ground after the first blow and he ignored it, so I don't think his intention was robbery.

I only wish that the couple that picked me up had thought to take me to the police station that was just down the street. I was too frightened and confused to think clearly, so I asked them to take me to my car and I drove home with very limited vision. A few hours later a friend took me to the police station to report it, and the officer mostly yawned. I couldn't really give a good description because one of my contact lenses had been knocked out, but that couple must have gotten a good look at him.

I mention this so that others who may find themselves in the position of stopping a crime like this will realize that the victim needs more help than just getting away. They need witnesses to help report it, they may need medical attention, and they certainly aren't going to be thinking clearly or rationally enough to ask for this help.

Nevertheless, I am deeply gratefully that those people were there and cared enough to not only stop, which scared him away, but to follow me when I initially ran away from them, to make sure I was okay.

I did, and would report such an attack, but I don't blame anyone who makes a different choice. (I didn't report a child molester when I was little, nor a college "boyfriend" after a date-rape assault, although I have blocked much of what happened in those situations, so I'm not sure I could have.)

At any rate, thank you for this thread, and I'm sorry that so many of us have this in common. :hug:

[demgurl]

129. It is wonderful to meet yet another.

Of course, that does not negate the child molester or date rape. I too blocked out much of what happened so I understand where you are coming from.

Thank you for the advice about rescuing someone and not just giving them a ride.

I am also sorry so many of us have this subject in common.

[rubberducky]

28. My heart goes out to you. I sought professional help, but

found that the whole thing was just too much to live through again. I also was disgusted by the thread you talked about.I was sickeded by some of the replys to the thread, it showed a whole other side to some posters. I`m glad that you posted this because I too am having a hard time getting that thread off of my mind. I wish you peace.

[demgurl]

84. rubberducky, peace to you as well.

People can have no idea what effect their words have on others. I am glad I am not the only one disgusted by a few of the replies.

[Triana]

29. "Blame the victim" works - esp when the victim is a woman or child.....

...it just works really well in our society.

Abuse victims get the same. Women who are abused and battered by their partners. Society blames the victim and at best they turn a very self-righteous "well why doesn't she just LEAVE" snarl at her and go on. The deck - legal, economic, societal - is very much stacked AGAINST victims of rape or violent crime in this country - WHEN those victims are women, children, or gay.

It's NOT EVEN SEEN AS AN ISSUE, even though rape and abuse of women and children is rampant and is one of the biggest human rights issues in this country and worldwide, aside from poverty and genocide.

THAT'S our society. It's EASIER and MORE CONVENIENT to blame the victims than to DO SOMETHING to stop these human rights abuses - that would entail NAMING and ADRESSING the societal reasons behind why these crimes occur - and it has NAUGHT to do with what the victim wears or how often they VOLUNTARILY have sex or whether they date or are married or not, or whether they dance or not or where - if it did, children and elderly would not fall victim to these crimes. The truth is, there are OTHER reasons behind why rapists rape and why men batter.

WHAT ARE THEY? I bet no one can even name them. NO ONE wants to address them. NO ONE wants to educate society about it or do anything, fund any programs, or make ANY laws to prevent it. No one wants to REALLY PREVENT it and deal with the ACTUAL (not the convenient excuses to cover up the actual) reasons behind it.

SO - we PAY by being victims ... and we PAY AGAIN by being the billboard upon which they plaster their CONVENIENT EXCUSE to NOT deal with these problems.

It's EASIER, quicker, cheaper and more convenient to KICK the rape or violence victim than to address the REAL ISSUES behind why it occurs and to try to STOP it.

It's NOT amusing. It's detestable, immoral, LAZY, disingenuous, and sick.

And THAT -- is our society.

NICE, eh?

[midnight]

33. I'm so sad that this behavior continues. I don't know why people

feel free to rip people off in ways that are so wrong, but for some reason our world has not been able to communicate that ripping people off is wrong. Sometimes it helps to talk to people who have gone through it. Sometimes time is the best therapy. Take care.

[demgurl]

87. midnight.....

thanks for your kind words. Sometimes it is hard to understand human behavior.

[qb]

34. You have written very thoughtful message.

I am sorry for what you have gone through. I will remember your request.

[demgurl]

92. Thank you. That means a lot. Peace!

[Chovexani]

39. My thoughts

I'm a rape survivor that feels especially ambivalent towards TCAP. I was a trailblazer in a sad sense because the first time I was raped, I was groomed by a guy I met on the net who was twice my age, who I met through an online game. This was in 1995 before people were really aware of this kind of thing. It was years also before I could call it what it was, rape. The psychological manipulation and the damage was incalcuable and I am still feeling the lingering reprecussions of this "relationship" at age 26 (I was 14 at the time it happened). I was raped again at 16 by another much older man, and didn't report it because of the shame I felt, and also because I was afraid--I'd met the guy at a Pagan bookstore, and my family consists of strict Evangelicals. I discovered years later that this man specifically targeted girls like me, who came from families where they could not be open about their religion and so would be afraid of their families finding out they'd been in a Pagan store.

I enjoy schadenfreude and have a dark sense of humor, largely as a coping mechanism for life in this diseased society, but I really wonder about people who laugh at TCAP. Yes, there are no actual children involved on these shows, but these guys usually exhibit a pattern of this behavior. The internet "boyfriend" who molested me had two children with his common-law ex-wife, who he started "dating" when she was 15. Somewhere out there, there's a good chance there's a real life child that the asshole you're laughing at in the kitchen with Chris Hansen molested.

I guess I am worried about the precedent TCAP makes. Trust me, if it were up to me these bastards would be castrated and impaled in the city square for what they've done. They don't deserve our pity, they deserve our contempt. Fortunately, it's NOT up to me--justice should be reasoned and impartial and not based on raw emotion and carried out by lynch mobs. As someone who in a minority several times over, I am very wary about the mentality behind the show, whether its target is deserving of it or not. It's dangerous. Vigilantism is dangerous because there's no reason involved, it's based entirely on emotion, and when you throw out reason, all hell breaks loose. There has to be a balance and I think people are so focused on the "WHO THE FUCK CARES, IT'S PEDOS!!!11" aspect that they can't see the forest for the trees. I'm thinking of the goths who were curb stomped after Columbine simply because they were wearing trenchcoats. I'm thinking of the men who are gay bashed because someone thought they "looked" gay. I'm thinking of the people who get curses yelled at them to go back to "wherever you came from" because they are brown.

All this shit is connected and people don't seem to see it.

[mtnester]

61. I have to say, I was completely moved by your post.

Somehow, what could have damaged people beyond belief seems to have made you stronger and wiser. I was stunned when you said you are only 26.

Although I did not have the same experience you had, I also was a victim of date rape...and did not report it because...well, it was a date and I absolutely believed I would not be believed. At the time, I felt lucky I was not lying cold and dead in the woods, which was where it happened. I walked away (literally) when his back was turned and he was putting on his pants...I ran and hid in the dark...and eventually walked out of that woods...alive...even after he looked for me for hours.

How you managed to come away with the perspective you have proves the amazing ability we each have to manage tragedy in our own, individual and unique way.

[Chovexani]

100. Thank you

And thank you for sharing your story...I'm glad you made it out of those woods, too. :hug:

I really believe in the old adage about things that don't kill us make us stronger. In a weird way I don't regret what happened as awful as it was because it's given me a persepective on these things. Especially the internet stuff. I see a lot of what goes on with these predators finding kids on MySpace, etc and my heart just goes out to these kids because I was there. I know what it's like to be in that vulnerable state and have a manipulate adult swoop in and pay you attention and make you feel golden.

The problem isn't with the internet so much as it is with parents not educating kids. It's not even about telling them "don't talk to strangers", it's developing a good relationship with your kid and having lines of communication open. It's making a kid feel safe and loved and wanted. Healthy, well-adjusted kids don't hook up with predators; there's a reason these scumbags target lonely kids on the net. Often the home situation isn't that great. I had an emotionally abusive absentee father and here was this man who treated me like I was worth something. I had Stockholm Syndrome to the point where I cried and screamed when the cops arrested him and told them I would just come back if they tried to take me home.

This stuff is more complicated than "watch your kids on the internet".

[redqueen]

64. You're wonderful.

:loveya:

That was a very thoughtful and insightful post. Thank you.

[dsc]

68. great post too bad we can't recommend individual posts.

[salin]

69. Very thoughtful post

I have very mixed feelings about the TCAP thing as well, especially the vigilante justice aspect to it. But at the same time, the crowd that defends along the lines that "no crime was committed" and "just thinking about doing it (and taking action towards doing it)" towards the show and other news items that crop up from time to time where an arrest is made before per trying to arrange sex with a child over the internet 'isn't a crime and nothing should happen until after an actual rape occurs' bothers me at a very core level.

[demgurl]

94. Chovexani, I am speechless at all you have been through.

No one should go through anything like that once but all you have been through says somuch about your spirit. My heart goes out to you.

In the case of TCAP, I do not find it vigilantism in the fact that they always work with officers. That aside, I agree with you on the other incidents you cited. I hope more people make the connection you mentioned. :hug:

[Chovexani]

104. I want to thank you for putting up this thread

And sharing your story...I am glad you are still walking strong after what you went through. :hug:

Because of the circumstances of my situation, TCAP is really hard for me to watch. I find there's still that lingering shame, especially if my family's in the room. I remember the very first TCAP on Dateline, I was watching it with my family and I had to leave the room. My mom is very much in denial about what happened and watching it brought back a lot of messed up emotions.

I don't see how anyone could think it's funny, and I probably have the sickest sense of humor out of anyone I know. I can understand compartmentalizing it and laughing when they chase some asshole down the street in his boxers, but honestly? That guy was there to abuse a child. I think it's just another sign of how bad society's gotten. This is almost a gladitorial sport to a lot of people and it's sickening.

[demgurl]

117. I am more than glad to share as it takes back more power ....

for me each time. I can see people squirm when I talk about it. Sometimes they are uncomfortable or do not know what to say. The more it is talked about the more comfortable people will become. But if we leave it buried then things will never change.

I announced my rape to my in-laws in the form of my Christmas list one year. There was a product whose proceeds benefit rape victims and I stated, on my list, that it would be great if people bought that product since I am a former rape victim. Someone did buy one for me but not a single person ever mentioned it to my face or by email. I did nothing wrong and I refuse to hide in the dark.

Thank you for sharing your story which was much worse than mine. Mine is easy to tell you the truth. There is not a lot I had to live with since I blocked most everything (including what the guy looked like) out of my mind. There were people at the party who could have identified him but I did not want to go through that. The one thing I do remember is him forcing my legs apart and me begging him not to. The two words that are vivid to me, to this day, were when he pushed himself in and said, "Too late". Those two words have stayed with me over 20 years. They will always be with me. Everything else is gone. I do remember going to the bathroom to puke afterward and I remember waiting by the phone until it was late enough the next morning that I could call my boyfriend.

I have a pretty warped sense of humor as well but I am with you not knowing where the incidents on TCAP are so funny.

I hope one day your family will rally around you and embrace you when it pertains to this matter. Your situation was much worse than mine but I always have a shoulder to lean on and an ear to hear.:hug:

[HeeBGBz]

42. I had sex with over 50 men before I turned 17

I can only think of one or two of them that were also minors, the rest were over 18, most were in their 20's or 30's. At some point, I became the aggressor and would just try to see who I could "get" sexually. During this timeframe, I only remember one person ever saying no.

I've berated myself for my behavior for most of my life (I'm 53 now). I always blamed me and not the men. Only in the last few years, have I come to realize how much I needed help to get away from that life. I don't blame myself nearly as much as I used to. Although, I probably will never actually "get over it".

When I see these programs, it makes me sick to my stomach.

[demgurl]

95. HeeBGBz........

Never let anyone tell you to 'get over it'. And do not berate yourself. I hope you had safe sex and you are free of any complications that sometimes come with even a one time sexual contact. I hope you find contentment in your heart and you can hold your head high when you look in the mirror. :hug:

[HeeBGBz]

150. It was a long time ago and it's okay

I'm sorry you had to go through what you did. I had a couple of similar incidents. It's not easy and second-guessing oneself is a big waste of time. As with anything that happens in my life, if it doesn't kill me, I make it a learning experience and try to move forward in a more positive way.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

180. I have little problem with a 20-24 yo man

stupid enough to have sex with say a 16-18 yo girl but I'm sorry I don't care how aggressive you are a 30yo man should be able to excercise better judgment! Also on these shows the girls are acting as if they are *barely* teenager (12-14).

Its good that you don't blame yourself too much as youth, especially pained youth, can lead to stupid decisions.

[Control-Z]

215. Your brief story

speaks volumes to me.

I can't help but ask if, at the time, or in the beginning of that period, you felt you could not (or were not allowed) to say "no" to, or defy these men? - If you were, in fact, seduced, craftily forced, essentially "raped" by these older men? - That it may have felt physically/emotionally special while deeply disturbing at the the same time? - That your eventual aggression may have been your only way to have some control?

If my questions are too personal, I apologize, and please don't feel pressured to reply. It just sounds like you were a young girl who was raped again and again because you didn't know there were other options.

[HeeBGBz]

245. I didn't feel I had too many options and no way to go back to what I was

There were times when I was afraid to say no. It kind of vicious cycled. Bad behavior/regret, more bad behavior fueled by regret. "A wild and an untamed thing" chock full of faux-bravado. Alcohol was a contributing factor more times than not.

"Beneath your perfume and make-up
You're just a baby in disguise
And though you know
That it is wrong to be
Alone with me
That come on look is in your eyes"

[Connonym]

43. it's tragic

I wonder what the real numbers are on rape and child molestation because I honestly believe that a mere fraction of victims ever have the nerve to come forth. I've kept the same secret.

I wish I could offer more than words of solidarity. Please accept my most sincere wishes that your heart finds peace.

[demgurl]

97. My heart and soul have peace. Thank you.

It is sadness that has also found a place in my heart. I wish people were more sensitive to the power of their words.

I am sorry that we share that secret but if you ever want to talk, please feel free to send me a message.

[boston bean]

54. Thank you for your post. I feel the same way. That is why I stayed away from that thread.

I've seen similar threads in the past and it does nothing but make me lose respect for posters I once respected. It is an insight into how they are thinking and in one thread I saw one person say it was ok to do that, I alerted, and it was erased, but i've never forgotten that posters name.

Anyone and I mean anyone who thinks those men are entrapped is out of their freakin mind.

They were on the internet fishing for younguns to have sex with.

They make the moves on who they think are underage girls and boys.

Nobody forced them to do that.

It is no different than police busting johns using a female prostitute decoy.

[demgurl]

99. I like to think the best of people .....

so I always hope people who scream entrapment have not seen the show and do not know what they are talking about. I can not fathom someone watching a predator sending nude pictures and stating what they want to do with the underage child defending them saying it is entrapment. Some of these guys do not show up just hoping to score. There was one show where the found a ton of weapons in the back of the vehicle. They often wonder if a child had been there if they would have been found dead. This is all very serious.

Children are innocent and arresting these predators is as much entrapment as it is entrapment arresting Michael Vic for choking and killing dogs.

[BlueIris]

56. Thanks for having the courage to post your story (again).

That's a brave thing to do on a board like this.

[demgurl]

130. I think it is more brave for people against the show.....

to post on this thread with so many survivors posting here!!!

In all seriousness, you are welcome. I am happy to post if it can chnaged the way even one person thinks ans speaks. The more out in the open it is the more it will be accepted.

[redqueen]

59. Same here.

Thanks for this post. Those posts rationalizing or legitimizing pedophiles' behavior make me sick... I have been avoiding that thread like the plague.

[demgurl]

174. Glad to be on the same page as you, redqueen.

It would be easier to avoid threads like that one but if we all avoid it then nothing ever changes. I sometimes wonder if I just like to punish myself when I go into threads such as that but if none of us go in and try to communicate the great harm being done, nothing will be different. The fact is, I wish we would all go into threads like that and gently remind everyone what is at stake.

PEACE!

[SidDithers]

62. Please don't equate criticism of the show ...

or criticism of the tactics of Perverted Justice with "defending the predator".

Sid

[redqueen]

63. I don't think she is. I think she was very specific about what she's criticizing.

It is very possible to criticize the tactics (sloppy work for one thing), without trying to rationalize the alleged perps' actions.

However the vast majority of the offensive posts are not problematic because they're criticizing the show's tacitcs... they're problematic because the poster is quite literally trying to rationalize the alleged perps' behavior. It's sickening.

[demgurl]

98. Thank you for posting that answer, redqueen.

Yes, I have no problem if people honestly post a criticism without any hidden agenda. I will say some 'questions' people have raised about whether people get off on watching the show really offend me since they are asking whether I, as a watcher, am getting off on some sicko coming over to a 13 year old's house so they can rape them.

I also get offended by people saying how funny it is. Children are the least able to defend themselves in our society and so we have many strict laws to protect them. when these creeps get on the web sending pictures and coming onto kids there is nothing funny about them showing up, in what they thought was a minor's house, with condoms, alcohol, a razor to shave pubic hair or a gun and rope. I find this frightening and it has made me more alert so that when my child got an alert the other day I was right there next to him making sure it was not some adult preying on him. This show has truly opened my eyes and there is nothing funny about that.

[Harper_is_Bush]

71. I hope you can muster the courage to report it someday soon. n/t

[Ilsa]

72. "He didn't really hurt you," was what my boss said.

My was burglarized and I was raped by a stranger, and this is what my boss, a man, told me.

[salin]

76. I hope this was some time ago...

just hoping that the idea that rape is equal or less than, say, getting hit in the face - has finally disappeared from the public mentality.

I don't say that to diminish what happened to you (by the side commentary), I am deeply sorry that it happened to you. I just know from experience, that was the case 20+ years ago by a couple of people I knew (in terms of discounting the severity of the crime of rape.)

[eridani]

143. I can't help but wish that every man who ever said that--

--would get a nail-studded broomstick up his ass ASAP. They'd change their minds, I'll bet.

[demgurl]

123. Oh my goodness!

Anyone who says that has no clue. And even if they truly believed that you were not hurt, perhaps he should go through what most of us who have been raped have to go through. It took maybe a year but I still remember having to look up a clinic where I could be tested for AIDS or any other diseases. I did not know this guy and so I had no idea what he might have passed along. I can not remember how long I had to wait for the results but I know for certain it was days and it was hard waiting to see if this guy had passed on a death sentence to me. (thankfully I was clean) Yeah, sure he didn't hurt you. :hug: :hug:

[Sugar Smack]

77. I'm sorry that happened to you.

:cry: :pals:

[demgurl]

131. Thank you, Sugar Smack.

If we can not prevent the crime at least we can try to change the way people see it.

[catnhatnh]

79. I'm not defending the predator but entrapment is wrong....

mainly it catches the wrong guys...because to me it seems like a speed trap that catches only everyone who drives 56 mph...It never seems to catch the worst and most worrisome.Why do we so seldom see repeat offenders-they sure seem to appear in most other crimes.My bet is that the feedback from the supposed victims is both so provocative and and perfect that no real offender would fall for it.Sure there are pathetic guys hanging in chat rooms they shouldn't but when you catch mainly sorry first time offenders don't tell me you've stopped a crime-you may have enticed an approach to one.

[demgurl]

107. I agree that when entrapment is real, it is wrong.

But I will not get off topic from my original thread. People yell entrapment when they obviously have not seen the show because they throw out these scenarios that are akin to torture supporters talking about the TV show '24' and how imperative it is to torture. Well there are no real '24' scenarios and stating 'what if they did this or did this' is just as real. Those scenarios are way out there and would be entrapment but it gets off the subject that this stuff is not entrapment and these thugs are guilty. People are not being swept up in this net who not ought to be there.

The other points I was trying to make had nothing to do with entrapment. It was about what on earth are these posters thinking when they find these shows so funny. Something so serious is not funny and I take offense.


I also take offense when people ask questions that are meant to insult others. What other way could it be taken when they ask who these people are that watch this show and they may be more sick than the predators and may be getting off on the whole deal. They actually talk about watchers sexually being gratified by this sort of show. That is sick. I do not get off on adults trying to rape children and I do not get sexual gratification from those creeps being arrested. That is just plain offensive and has nothing to do with entrapment.

[catnhatnh]

163. I absolutely agree and I was moved by your post...

others did discuss entrapment and while I find that the show is probably not entrapment it also fails to address seasoned abusers....

[Riktor]

125. Entrapment is only the tip of the iceberg

In televising the whole affair, the program essentially destroys any chance of the offenders securing an impartial jury. Never mind that if you, or I, decided to go out and slay pederasts we'd be labeled vigilantes and prosecuted...

[demgurl]

133. Usually the predators have at least been arraigned.

by the time the show airs on TV. But that is for another thread. What this thread is about is people using questions to try and paint others with a sick brush. This thread is about people finding the arrest of child rapists funny. This thread is about getting people to see how prevailing attitudes stops justice from being done especially when that is what some are espousing in the first place - justice is not done because of entrapment and they speak when they have not seen the show and do not know the details.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

182. I dont think perverted justice is entrapment...

[tigereye]

88. I wish you peace, and peace to all the women who have been raped

It saddens me to think that so many felt that they would be blamed or misunderstood for something that was in no way their fault.

Rape is an act of violence, and no woman should ever blame herself.

:hug:

[demgurl]

171. tigereye, thank you.

It is sad but until we change things, they will continue the way they are. Things have to change.

[stevedeshazer]

90. What an amazing story and thread

I think you (demgurl) and most of the participants here have provided a real public service by being honest about this in the face of cultural pressure.

My SO was raped decades ago and it continues to affect our relationship. I wish more people would openly discuss these issues; as long as we continue to hide them, the longer it will take for all of us to move on.

Good luck and thanks to all in this thread for sharing their stories, not an easy thing to do.

[demgurl]

175. Steve_DeShazer....

I am sorry about your SO. She is lucky to have someone who is supportive and understanding. I concur that we need to talk about this publicly more and more.

I am amazed at the wonderful ladies who have stood up on this thread and said what happened to them. It takes a lot of guts especially when several mentioned the stigma even with their families. These women are strong and I admire them all.

Stay strong and keep your SO safe.

[boricua79]

91. i'm sorry to hear about your ordeal

and I don't think it's entrapment when one of these jackoff pedophiles gets caught going into the home of some 15-year old child. You should NEVER be with a child of 15 years ages alone, especially if you don't know them and don't know their family. And no man above 18 has any business hanging around or visiting a 15 year old. The men in that show are ALWAYS caught on the prowl and with an intent to have sexual relations with 15 years olds. They weren't going there to play Playstation or Wii with them!

[rhett o rick]

93. To all those that have experience this horrible crime, my heart goes out to you. But...

IMHO this show does a disservice to your cause. Laws should be tougher and it should be easier for victims to get justice but this show doesn't do any of this. In fact the show probably gives those that watch a good feeling that something is being done when it isn't.

I have watched the show a few times and find it ludicrous. I am not defending the creeps but this is just a show that makes people think something is being done when actually nothing is. In one show they caught a repeat offender. He had already gotten trapped and came back again. So think about that for a moment. The show didn't do anything to "fix" him or the problem, but exploited his capture once again. I am curious how many times they could arrest this guy and make a show of it and the audience think, wow look at the good they are doing.

There are a lot of actions that could be done and could be done to help fix this situation but instead i think people are mollified by the show.

Again, before you flame away, I fully support stronger laws, better laws and tougher sentencing.

[demgurl]

96. Just leaving the show out of it for a moment.....

my original post was not about the show and how effective it is so I will try not to go off topic. As someone who was raped, my post was about why I did not report my rape and how views expressed by some members reinforces that I made the right decision. My post suggests that when people make light of such issues they have an effect on those who may want to report such matters but are reluctant due to ideas like those expressed here (not on my thread) about how funny a show on child rape is.

[rhett o rick]

105. I so totally agree with you. But I think the show that you mentioned is counter productive to the

cause we both support. I hope you understand. As far as whether you made the right decision or not is totally up to you. How can those of us that have not been through what you have ever understand or be able to know what the right decision is. I appreciate you being able to speak out now.

[demgurl]

126. I can take people wondering about the show....

even if I disagree with the reasons people give. This is why I will not debate what you have set forth. That is for another thread. What I have stated, in this thread, is that some vocal people make it hard on rape victims to come forth. I also stated that rape is not funny and I am offended by those who think it is. My jaw drops and I can not believe the attitude of some people who feel that this show ought to be on Comedy Central.

Thank you for supporting the cause and being respectful in your reply. Peace!

[TransitJohn]

115. These shows are successful at one thing.

Selling ads.

[Catherine Vincent]

109. ...

:hug:

[salin]

134. Thank you for posting this. As another survivor

I know that even in an 'anonymous' forum, this is still hard to put out there for discussion. But it is a topic that needs discussion. Deepest sympathies for what you endured. It sounds like you, too, have had a lot of years to heal - and took a number of years before you began to deal with it and began to heal (me, too!) It is so disheartening to me that the environment is still so hostile to young women that the incident rate is still high, and the reasons for fearing reporting the rape to authorities is still so overwhelming. :cry:

Peace to you.

[demgurl]

165. Salin, your words are wonderful. Thank you.

It used to be hard for me to talk about it but it has gotten much easier over time. I just understand that it is my responsibility to speak out and try to make things easier and better.

I am sorry you went through the same thing and hope it is something you do not encounter again.

Much peace to you.

[Hoof Hearted]

140. My rapist was legally married to me at the time.

So yeah, all of the stigma applied, and doubled.

I hope your attacker rots in the same living hell mine is. He earned it.

[demgurl]

169. Hoof...

that must have been a hellish situation you were caught in. I hope it did not happen over and over but being in a marriage I am not sure how you would have escaped it without leaving the guy. I know how hard it is to leave because I rescued one of my friends from her abusive husband. I had to show up many times before she was ready to leave. I finally contacted her parents and they drove over an hour to meet her me one night. We talked about what their daughter was going through (they suspected but had no proof) and we made a plan. We got the guy arrested - the guy was slimy enough we did not have to frame him or set him up in any way. While the guy was in jail her parents happened to be in town and took her and her daughter to their town. That was when she finally got free and has been free ever since.

I hope you had help and lots of support.

For me, I wish no ill on my attacker. That is easier for me than most others since I mostly blocked out the crime. I am actually harder on myself than I am on others and have found an amazing capacity, in myself, for forgiveness. It is my guide who reminds me that when I am seeking good things in life for those who have crossed me that I should equally give myself the same forgiveness.

By the way, all of this does not mean I am pointing fingers at you in any way. I think if I vividly remembered the crime I would have much more anger and perhaps I would be unable to forgive.

I hope you find a center of peace that protects your heart from all that has been done to you.

[AZBlue]

141. I'm so sorry for what you went through.

:hug:

And I'm sorry for the stupidity you have to face in the earlier thread, in this thread and in other threads.

Thank you for your brave post here.

[demgurl]

172. Hey AZ!!

No worries here. I saw some flare up in this thread but not a lot. Perhaps I was not clear in what I was saying but I have tried to make myself clear since. A friend of mine always says the best part of making a mistake is learning from it. If the people who have been joking about this show see how much it intellectually and emotionally hurts people, as well as our system of justice, then it will be worth it.

I have a hard time not trying to believe the best in people and I am hoping these people had no realization of the effects of their words and actions.

:hug:

Thanks!!!!

[AZBlue]

234. That is an excellent viewpoint!

You are quite amazing - very grounded, very positive. We should all - including me - be a bit more like that!

:yourock:

[Smith_3]

144. I feel sorry for you. That said, I do believe justice belongs in a courtroom, not on public display.

It fosters paranoia and hang-em-higher mentality in the public. I believe in punishing criminals according to laws, not in publicly humiliating people for the pleasure of the public. In this regard, I am less worried about the "feelings" of the criminal than about what this process does to society.

[Elspeth]

146. It's still hard to get a conviction on rapists of children in a court room setting

And the punishments are often far lower than they should get. Perhaps a little public shaming might actually help the situation.

[ingac70]

151. I agree. n/t.

[Smith_3]

153. I would guess, if that was the case, then one should work to improve the legal system.

What it boils down too, IMO is the question wether a jury or a lynchmob are more qualified in deciding a penalty. I think the prime objective of such shows is not to deliver justice, but to present the public a face onto which they may project their hatred. Kind of like a human sacrifice.

Anyway, I'm not so sure wether the legal penalties for raping etc. are too low. AFAIK a rapist-murderer will surely get a death sentence in most cases.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

170. And that's exactly what's wrong with the show.

It's ruining lives.

[salin]

173. ??

this response makes no sense in connection to the post that it is responding to. Could you clarify (or did you mean to respond to a different post). It seems cryptic.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

176. If you can't get a conviction in court...

then you've got no business humiliating and destroying people in the "court of public opinion." It's a kind of kangaroo court, it's a form of vigilanteism.

[salin]

181. thanks for clarifying the point you were trying to make.

I agree that I am concerned about various forms of vigilanteism that this (and registries) seems to promote/spawn.

However I think the low rate of convictions is unrelated. I don't think the low rate is simply due to "weak" cases. I think the main poster raises an important factor - the low rate of willingness of victims to participate (from reporting on up to participating in prosecutions) in court procedings.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

184. I was talking about convictions of the people in the show.

[salin]

186. Got it...

guess we were having two not quite connected conversations.

Btw, I thought they yanked the show off the air after the lawyer in Texas committed suicide after he was on an episode. Guess I was wrong. Yes, according to what I have read on this thread - there is a low conviction rate from the show - which brings me to agree with you. If that is the case, and the work is shoddy from an evidence standpoint, then the real point of the show lays naked and ugly - to titilate the public and play to our societies ugly side.

[demgurl]

179. Smith_3...do not feel sorry for me, feel sorry for my rapist.

What happened in his life that he felt the compulsion to do what he did? Was he molested by a priest? Did a family member do something to him? What caused him to go to such extremes and was it ever fixed or will he forever be haunted by this awful need to have control over someone else? I was a tool he used and it was bad enough I blocked most of it out. I have gone on with my life but has he been able to get the help he needs?

All of that being said, my original post was about people thinking arresting child rapists is funny as all get out. It was about people screaming entrapment and not having seen the show. That is offensive when you have been raped and would the same people scream entrapment if I had reported my rapist? My original post was about people stating they wonder about people who watch the show and they must get off on it.

You have thoughts that you are obviously not just stating without thinking about them. These are things you believe and I deeply respect that. I do believe that your concerns are better addressed on the other thread because this one was only truly meant to explain how certain thoughts and actions set back out justice system and make it much harder for a rape victim to come forward.

From what I can see, legitimate concerns to TCAP, have to do with justice and making sure our system works correctly and is at it's best. Everyone who believes that, as you do, must agree with my thoughts as I am also talking about things that hold back our system of justice and so we have the same principles at heart. The process of what some people do on this board really breaks down our society. It lets criminals run loose and women suffer in silence. I believe we are on the exact same track of thinking.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Flatline]

152. You are blind as well......

There are people who use the SEX OFFENDER thing as a weapon to get everything in a divorce or just mess someones life up, but you never hear about them do ya? Do you think this crap cannot be used as a weapon? Do you not think this happens everyday?

[salin]

154. false accusations should carry a big penalty,

but I am not sure what you are saying here - because it sounds a lot like minimizing rape and the experience of a rape survivor.

[lumberjack_jeff]

160. In a perfect world, both rape and false accusations would be fully prosecuted.

Sadly, there are strong disincentives for both victims of the former and prosecutors of the latter to press charges.

I don't minimize the trauma a rape victim might face testifying against a rapist, but I have to wonder if rape would be less common if prosecution were more common.

I suspect increased rape prosecution might be more effective than attempting to make men (as a group) guilty of the crime that the individuals who are allowed to walk free have committed.

What are some things that the justice system could do differently which would increase the likelihood that criminals would be prosecuted?

Child-sex stings are popular because it's a way to incarcerate those who might be predisposed to the crime (of sex with a minor) without having to rely on any witnesses.

[salin]

162. I agree strongly with you second line (all of your post, but esp. that)

indeed upthread I expressed that while I did not report when I was raped (years ago), I later came to regret it. Not for as big and general reason as you state well (detering the behavior in others) but for the fact that the rapist probably went on to rape others, and perhaps I could have prevented that.

What can the justice system do differently - hard to say, as part of the problem is societal in terms of how rape is minimized and thus how victims are treated - or fear they will be treated. For me the shame was horrendous, the idea of subjecting myself to more humiliation per folks assuming that it must have been my fault (this was an 'upstanding' young man...) - heck I told myself that as well (that at some level I must have done something to send the signal that caused the rape) all of that is ridiculous, but it is real at the time of the truama. I honestly don't know what the Justice System can do to address that, and without willing witnesses there can not be successful prosecutions.

Per prosecuting false witnesses I think that is an easier matter. But if you increase the prosecutions of the false accusers, without an increase in rape prosecutions - then the public perception that increased the fear of the victim to report let alone prosecute - remains continuing to depress the rate of report.

[demgurl]

156. I did not say anyone was blind as that would be insulting.

I am not sure why you are so hostile but I can only imagine it is due to some injustice someone has done to you.

My original thread was about how people defend these creeps without having seen the show. Your post did not address this.

My original thread was about how people thought a show about catching would be child rapists was funny. You did not address this in your post.

My original thread talked about how different sentiments stated on DU lend themselves to rapes not being reported. This has been backed up by several other people who have been raped. Your post did not address this.

Going further the show, TCAP, does not address divorces or people lying to get others in trouble. That is a totally different subject and has nothing to do with this thread.

I have been trying to keep this thread on topic but I will stray for just a moment. As I stated earlier, I decried the false accusations against the Duke players. Any time false allegations are made it hurts everyone, not just the people directly involved. I am so sorry for what you must obviously have been put through by someone else. Please know that karma will work things out in the end even if you do not see it happen yourself. The best thing you can do to fight someone, doing this to you, is to show much love and compassion for what they are going through. My Mom stole tens of thousands of dollars from me and I was about as mad as you appear to be right now. But with much meditation I came to the conclusion that she needed that money because she has lost her way in this big world of ours. She is so lost that she decided it was worth possible jail time and alienating her whole family just to keep up the lifestyle that impresses her friends. I can not imagine how lonely she must really feel inside and how silent it is when she goes to bed at night. I am grounded and have found a solid path. I can make it on what I have but she needed that money for her well being. I can only hope that some day she finds a path where she will not have to fill emptiness with material goods.

If someone has done this to you then just think how desperate they must have been to do it. That is so sad that someone needed something so badly or felt such hate that they would ruin someone else's life.

I wish much love and luck to you, but now I must get back to what this thread is really about.

In Metta,

demgurl

[qb]

164. Start your own thread.

The OP was an earnest request for understanding. There's no need to hurl insults here.

[demgurl]

190. ftbc......

thank you for trying to defend me. If you look at flatliners post here as well as his post on the TCAP thread, I think you will see a lot of anger. It would seem to me that someone that angry has been wronged and a pretty serious wrong at that. If we ignore his hurt than, for me, it would be like people ignoring the hurt of rape victims who can not come forward. There is so much of holding other people back and I think sometimes we just need healing.

This does not mean you can not tell people to please be polite and I was hoping flatliner would see my reply where I told him I would never call anyone blind because that would be insulting. I was hoping by nicely pointing out what he said coupled with me trying to understand where he is coming from may advance him being friendlier and perhaps even help heal flatliner a bit.

It does do my heart good, though, to know people care enough to speak up. Thank you for your caring and contribution to this thread.

[salin]

191. demgurl,

you have a very gracious spirit. I have seen several of your responses to people who were being, well, less than responsivwe - and you posted heartfelt, thoughtful words. Peace to you. :hug:

[demgurl]

197. Peace to all of us, salin.

And thank you. :hug:

[qb]

204. Thank you for that perspective.

You are thoughtful and kind... a good example for us all.

[demgurl]

217. ftbc...

thank you for taking my post in the spirit it was meant.

:hug:

In Metta, (loving kindness)

demgurl

[helderheid]

155. Thank you for this post. I feel the same way (and was abused as a child)

[demgurl]

192. It is even worse when it is done to you as a child.

My heart aches for you. :hug: I am very sorry. I wish you much love and healing for you.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

177. On the Duke Case

"I had always wondered if I made the right decision. After the Duke lacrosse case I publicly stated I had made the right decision because people pointed fingers before all the facts were in and boy was the alleged rape victim judged."

--

Many also were ready to hang the alleged rapist who it turns out committed no crime other than exercising really poor judgment by hiring a stripper in the first place.

But I can pretend to know what its like for someone who was really raped to come forward and as such I cant speak one way or the other about your decision. Lets hope karma caught up with the perp and he got his some other way..

[demgurl]

199. DadOf2LittleAngels.....

Yes, I did not like what folks were assuming about the 'Duke rape victim' or the Duke players. My stomach was in knots over that.

Karma catches up with us all whether we believe in it or not.

Thank you for your post.

[Samurai_Writer]

183. There are a lot of us who haven't reported being raped

for the same reasons you state, Demgurl. I've been raped twice. Once at age 12 and once at 44. I didn't report either time. The first time, because I was too ashamed to let my parents know what happened. The second time, because the guy who raped me was friends with the Chief of Police in my small town, and I knew it would be me on trial instead of the famous athlete who everyone thought was such a great guy. I moved 2,000 miles away to get away from him (he continued to harass me afterwards).

Most people don't understand how hurtful their comments can be. Every time there is a rape thread, I know I will be putting at least 6 more people on my ignore list, because of their insensitive, hateful, or misogynistic comments towards the rape victim. From my almost 6 years on this site, I can definitely say that DU has become less, not more, enlightened and progressive when it comes to issues involving women. I rarely venture out of my 'safe' forums to post anymore. But I had to respond to you, demgurl, and let you know that you're definitely not alone.

:grouphug:

[salin]

188. Peace to you RadFemFL

and tears for what you had to live through. I wasn't harassed - but in the aftermath I had to sit in a twelve person seminar, three hours a week the following semester. Looking back I almost don't know how I was able to do that - until I remember how good I got at blocking/repressing and self-blame.

I am sorry that you had to move - and that the ass continued to harass you. That should *never* happen.

[Samurai_Writer]

202. Moving is the best thing that ever happened to me

So in a way, it worked out for me. I love where I live now, I have family here, and I have a wonderful boyfriend I've been dating the past 5 months. The rape happened 2 1/2 years ago, and my life is completely changed since then, for the better. I just hope that guy got the karma he so richly deserved.

[salin]

205. Glad to hear the positive developments

and that there has been a silver lining for you. I agree the dude clearly is due for some karmic action.

[nyc 4 Biden]

195. God Bless you Demgurl...

and others on this thread for being so brave and speaking out about this horrible crime. :pals:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

198. Thank you so much for sharing that. I completely relate to your story.

As for TCAP, I've watched it a few times since it comes on after Olbermann. I don't find it the slightest bit funny. The worst one I saw was where a guy was meeting the decoy (posing as a 13 year old girl) while his sister and his kid were out in the car waiting for him!

My only big concern with TCAP is that it reinforces the fallacious "stranger danger" myth of child sex abuse. I'm worried that people watch this show and think that online creeps are a bigger danger to their kids than the trusted adults (relatives, coaches, clergy, etc.) whom statistics show are for more likely to be predators. However, when you see how many perps this show picks up, it does illustrate that there is reason to be cautious about kids being online.

[demgurl]

201. Thanks, thecatburgler.

There are so many areas where parents need to be concerned. I did not grow up with a computer and therefore I may not have been aware of all the creeps out there when my kids are really ready to use the computer. I am glad this show illustrated it for me.

There was actually another time when a perp brought his child himself! It is amazing how desperate these people are.

As far as my own children are concerned, I have been trying to teach them about strangers since they could talk. I introduce them to people and let them talk and then I ask my kids about how nice the person was. I then talk to my kids about how, even though the people seemed nice, they were still strangers. I think/hope my kids get that at this point.

I have had enough near misses that I also keep an eye on those close to us who have access to my children. You can never be too safe.

[HEyHEY]

200. I agree

I have serious problems laughing at such jokes. As a journalist, I've covered many a sex trial and once you see first hand the kind of damage the victims have sustained it just isn't funny to you. I even pulled myself off a trial once because the circumstances were too similiar to those my girlsfriend at the time was dealing with, it was very emotional and disturbing. And took me a long time to get over... and I wasn't even the victim! Just close to a victim. Hence, I don't find it funny.

[demgurl]

218. HEyHEY, thanks for the support.,

I am sorry for what your friend went through.

:hug:

[Prophet 451]

207. I'm not sure how many were defending the predator

A lot of responders (myself included) were concerned about the legal remifications or the seeming encouragment to vigilantism but I didn't notice anyone actually defending the criminals. As for the comments about humour, well, I can't defend those but bad taste jokes are nothing new.

[demgurl]

213. I understand concerns of entrapment.....

but some went off on tangents (hope that does not sound snarky, does it?) about these elaborate scenarios that never ever would even happen on this show. For instance, talking about kids going into adult rooms for adults only. Well, part of what PJ does is only going to kid rooms so that that can not be used as defense. Some people seemed to come up with everything they could just to show how these men could be set up. When people seem to be actively working to see ways these men are innocent, I call that trying to defend these creeps.

That is all distressing when you have been a rape victim yourself and people just seem to be trying to see it from some creep's side who sent a picture of his penis to a '13' year old who he thought he would have sex with when he sees her.

I do not mind people having legitimate questions about legal ramifications. This does not question who is at fault or make someone feel like they have done something wrong when they have not.

Vigilantism I always thought was a civilian going after what they perceive is a criminal. We are talking about TCAP, not PJ and what they do when they are off air. TCAP always have cops on the scene and they do not do this on their own. BUt even if you feel it is vigilantism,, that still does not effect rape victims and their hesitancy to come forward.

I might wonder if my view is skewed but so many other women have come forward and said they concur that the types of comments I pointed out make them less likely to come forward. With all of this concern over our justice system, I think we are on the same side. Rape victims do not want their rapists to get away. Comments, like some people have spoken, make it harder for rape victims to come forward. Either those comments are OK even after hearing a slew of rape victims say they feel oppressed by them. Or it is not OK and we all work together to tell folks to curb their attitudes and be aware of how their comments effect our already dysfunction justice system.

When we do not try to pave the way for rape victims to report the crime we are committing another crime altogether. Imagine being violated in the worst way you possibly can and not being able to report it. This effects so many things but that guy is still out there and now he could rape you again. That is living in fear and that is a broken justice system.

Jokes are one thing but these posters were not joking when they said they watch this program for comedic value. Several people chimed in together and said the show was hilarious. YOU tell a joke, a joke is not a critique on a TV show.

[Prophet 451]

221. I don't want to make any victim feel at fault

I think the legal repercussions here bear careful examination. Entrapment is an obvious issue but there are also questions about evidentiary process, due legal process, neutral proceding and so on. As laudable as it is catching predators, it's meaningless if they walk away due to some technicality that wasn't observed. I'll admit I'm mildly uncomfortable with presenting law enforcement as entertainment as well (and for most of those watching, it is entertainment) but that's my personal issue.

The vigilantism thing: It's not simply going after someone a citizen percieves as a criminal. Citizens have always had teh right to make a citizen's arrest if they view a crime in progresss and to use a reasonable amount of force (reviewed by the courts) to enact that arrest. Vigilantism is effectively making oneself into judge and jury, not just enacting an arrest but taking it upon oneself to mete out punishment as well. TCAP don't do that but I do worry that they contribute to creating a hysteria which leads to people taking it upon themselves. We've had several incidents here (Britain) where innocent people have been assaulted or even killed because they looked similar or had a similar name to a sex offender. In the same way, I've always opposed things like the law (recently rejected by a state government) that sex offenders have pink license plates on their cars. Unless we're going to execute sex offenders or lock them up for life (and I'm quite sympathetic to both ideas), they need to go somewhere and public hysteria being what it is, lynch mob justice is always a danger. Police officers are trained to enforce the law fairly. If we create an atmosphere where people believe anyone can act as a cop and human nature being what it is, I have a strong suspician that people will end up enforcing the law as they wish it was, rather than as it actually is and we can all see where that ends up.

I don't need to imagine what it is like to be molested or raped. I taught self-defence to college girls for years for exactly that reason but any offender, no matter how loathsome, is entitled to due process of law. Don't misunderstand me, the fault is the offenders, not the victims but these are serious questions that need to be thought about carefully.

[demgurl]

230. No decent person wants victims to feel at fault.

And I do not wish everyone to feel as I do about the show. I am not a censor. I think a lot of people have valid concerns. Going along with something blindly hardly works for anything and that includes TV, politics and religion. Thinking people question and that is good. I just wanted people to be aware of a few specific comments/views that are held that make it harder for rape victims to make reports.

I agree there are serious questions and I hope you (and others) will keep asking them.

[mzmolly]

209. I am so sorry. I have a close family member who was raped and terrorized in her home

for four hours. She had two young children at the time. She was the only victim to come forward and the 'perp' got 6 months because he was 17 at the time the offense occurred. She's never been the same, frankly. She has suffered from mental 'break downs' started beating her children and has been ever changed. Ironically, she was recently divorced and left a bad marriage due to abuse.

I am so sorry for any one who has had to endure this kind of violence. My heart goes out to you and all others who have suffered in this manner demgurl.

[demgurl]

227. mzmolly.....

I hope your family member finds her way to peace so that she may be whole and happy again. :hug:

[mzmolly]

236. She's doing well considering. It's been decades, and she's 'medicated'.

She was dx'd with bipolar after the incident and I feel it was a catalyst?

I hope that you have found peace as well demgurl.

Hugs right on back.

[FlyingSquirrel]

211. I see a lot of deleted messages. Must be a lot of sick people...

...around here. I don't know what the statute of limitations is on reporting a rape, but if you were my daughter I'd sure as heck encourage you to do so. Not only for your own sake but others he might rape. But easier for me to say than you to do.

God bless

[demgurl]

228. I could not report it even if I wanted to.

I have blocked out what he looks like, my mind will not let me remember his name and I can not even remember the name of the girl who held my hair when I threw up after the rape. I told her what happened and asked her for a ride home (she drove me there - a friend of a friend) and she said she wanted to hang out with some uy for a while and then she would drive me! My mind has pretty much blocked out everything except about ten seconds and two words that he said. ( I begged him to stop and he said 'too late')

Besides, that was over 20 years ago!

Deleted messages could mean that there are sick people or it could mean rape is a very emotional issue for many. I hope people find the inner peace that many need.

[The Doctor.]

214. Always report it when it has indeed happened.

If everyone who is actually raped reported more often, it might help offset the number of fraudulent reports that make police so skeptical.

Think of it as a duty not only to yourself and to justice, but to the integrity of the many women (and even men) who are sexually assaulted.

[The Doctor.]

222. Well, I read through the whole of your post. At first, I was sympathetic...

But now I see you've used an alleged trauma to chastise people who don't like TV shows that exploit idiots and the hatred they garner.

Your having been raped does not equate here.

Despite the fact that these 'predators' are scum, they are led to believe that their pursuit is consensual.

Unless you are saying that you actually did consent as a minor to sex with an adult which you later deemed rape, your experience is not germane to your point.

[demgurl]

226. I am sorry you feel that way.

To me, the fact that so many other rape survivors have spoken up and say they feel the same way, means my post bears merit.

I never meant to chastise anyone. I have tried to be respectful and no one had answered my individual replies to state how rude I am being toward them. In fact, several of my posts mention that I believe people are NOT doing this purposely and if it is only pointed out that they may change what they say.

With one person, who disagrees, I offer my sympathy and note how hurt he must have been at one point.

I just do not think (and hope) I have chastised anyone.

My rape equates here because when a perp is being blindly defended and when watchers are being alluded to as wetting themselves over the show, it makes rape victims see how truly how the public sees them and confirms they will be the ones judged if anything ever happens.

Yeah, the predators are scum AND criminals. The law is that you can not corrupt a minor and the age of minors are squarely spelled out in the law. The same children who are not allowed to legally sign a contract are the same ones who can not legally give consent for sex and these men know it and even state, at times, they will get in trouble if anyone finds out. In the eyes of the law when these men have sex with these children it is rape. Therefore their situations square with anyone else who has been raped since they are would-be rape victims in the eyes of the law. Before these perps even show up they have committed a crime by what they do on the internet. The chances that every single one of these guys is caught their first time out is highly unlikely which means they have raped children before. No matter what other people thing, in the eyes of the law and many others, this is rape and nothing less.

These children are not having sex with adults and later deeming it as rape. Whenever an adult has sex with a minor, even if the minor does not see it as rape, it is still rape. No one has to change a mind at all. And this is not what is happening on the show. Never did they have a real child on who had sex and then said it was rape.

By the way, I never once criticized people who "don't like TV shows" like TCAP. I did say I am not sure what is so funny about an adult coming to rape a child and being arrested for having committed a crime. What business is it of mine if someone hates it? My only thoughts are trying to make society a safer one so many women can be freed to report crimes and not be judged by others.

May much love and kindness come your way,

demgurl

[The Doctor.]

235. Then I can only be left to ask you a personal question that I would rather not;

Since it was you who brought up such a trauma in your life, and brought it to bear on your opinions here, you have made it a fair point of query;

"Were you raped against your will, or did you 'consent' and later change your mind?"

You see, these 'men' that are humiliated belive that their 'victim' is consenting to sex. I do not defend that, I find it revolting personally, but it in no way constitutes intent to physically or sexually assault anyone against their will.

What you are doing here is equating the physical assault of rape with consensual sex with a minor. Those are simply not the same thing, and the only reason to equate them is to assail those who make such a distinction.

Since I've asked you something personal, I will share something personal myself;

My wife had her first sexual experience when she was a sexually mature 14. She told me about it after we'd been dating for 3 years. She told me the basic details of how she met him, where they went, that they had intercourse, and that he was very gentle. I was a disgusted with the adult (he was 23 at the time of the encounter), but I asked her, "Was it a good experience?"

She said, "Well, it wasn't bad, but I wouldn't call it 'good'... I'm sure it could have been much better."

She's a very well adjusted professional now. We've been married for 8 years, together for 11. She let him carry her to the field, she let him do what he did because she was curious. She does not hate herself for allowing it to happen, she does not consider herself 'violated' or 'taken advantage of'. She's merely written it off as 'one of those stupid things'.

I had a friend in High School, she was raped in a field, her face pushed into the mud, her body violated. She was terrified, shocked, and wounded both physically and emotionally. She's never quite gotten over it even though I did what I could to help.

Are you saying these two instances are the same?

They are obviously not.

One was a vicious attacker, the other was, at worst, taking advantage of a young girl. One girl was scarred permanently, the other, my wife, felt absolutely no adverse effects.

There is a very big difference between men who violently assault women against their will, and men who seek 'consensual' sex with teenage girls.

If you cannot make that distinction, then perhaps your experience affected you too profoundly to comment objectively on these issues?

[demgurl]

240. Thank you for being so respectful in your query.

My rape was a rape all the way. It was not consensual and I never changed my mind.

I do understand the differences that you have pointed out and I respect them. I know they are different things and I honestly wish I could start this thread over to make myself clear. After talking it over with my husband, I can see where some confusion may come up from my posts. I would start a new thread but I honestly do not have the emotion left in me to write it and respond. This is a pretty emotionally draining issue.

What happens to children, by pedophiles, is rape. But is certainly is a different type of rape unless it is forced upon them. The average statutory rape does not involve violence or force so it is very much different. I understand that.

The whole point of my original post was not even in any way connected to pedophilia, TCAP or anything of that nature. I saw comments that matched closely (in my mind) to views I have seen expressed before and I wanted to reach out to those people and let them know that those exact types of comments heavily impact a rape victim's decision on whether to report a crime.

We could take TCAP out of the picture and just even talk about the whole Duke incident. It still comes down to blaming the victim, even in a round about way, makes victims not want to come forward lest they be blamed as well. It does not help that one of the Supreme Court judges stopped a court hearing to ask what a rape victim was wearing. It does not help when comments are made on boards such as this one. It does not help- when even within our own families we see blaming looks cast our way.

Take away the show because that was never the point. That is why I started off talking about the Duke players because I wanted people to know it is not just a TCAP issue. It is not an issue where you can not criticize such shows. It is an issue where we should be aware of our words and how they may make women live a silent nightmare instead of reporting a crime.

Does this clear up anything or am I so tired I am not even making sense any more? (thus not wanting to clarify my points in a new thread!!!!!)

[The Doctor.]

275. This made it more clear;

"It is an issue where we should be aware of our words and how they may make women live a silent nightmare instead of reporting a crime."

I agree. What a woman is wearing and what she did have no bearing on her being victimized.

I would suggest that one of the problems that we have is that women, especially young women, have no idea how powerful male sex drive is, and how the donimant urge is hard-wired to sex drive which, in men, is driven far more by the limbic system than in women. No, I'm in no way saying that rape is in any way 'sex', it's far more complicated than that. I am saying that it's very important for women to keep themselves out of situations where any kind of rape can happen.

We can only weed out so many uncivilized assholes through punishment, but prevention means educating all women about potential hazzards that can trigger rape. That does not mean a girl can't dress in a short skirt, it does mean that dressing in a short skirt, going with a man to a hotel room, flirting, and triggering his sex drive is a bad idea that will often lead to rape. In exactly that sort of case, the girl may often feel that it's 'her fault'. Well, it's not 'her fault' that he lost control, it's his, but she never should have put herself in that position.

Women must understand that. That way many more rapes will be avoided.

I'm sure your case is different, and as I said before, you should always report rape. Even if you find it humiliating, it's a duty not just to the one perp's potential victims, but to the credibility of all rape victims.

One of the most heinous contributors to police being so skeptical about rape reports, and why so many treat women who've been raped very poorly, is that too many women falsely report rape.
http://www.glennsacks.com/research_shows_false.htm

When women do this, such as in the Duke University case, real victims suffer. The best way to fight this, aside from counter charges against those who falsely accuse, is to always report actual rape.

Having had friends who were raped, I can hardly contain my anger at those who in any way make them feel responsible or incredible. I don't contain my anger at those who raped them.

I'm sorry for what you've been through... I do hope that you will encourage those who've been harmed to do whatever it takes come forward and give more credibility back to the victims.

[The Doctor.]

237. Then I can only be left to ask you a personal question that I would rather not;

Since it was you who brought up such a trauma in your life, and brought it to bear on your opinions here, you have made it a fair point of query;

"Were you raped against your will, or did you 'consent' and later change your mind?"

You see, these 'men' that are humiliated believe that their 'victim' is consenting to sex. I do not defend that, I find it revolting personally, but it in no way constitutes intent to physically or sexually assault anyone against their will.

What you are doing here is equating the physical assault of rape with consensual sex with a minor. Those are simply not the same thing, and the only reason to equate them is to assail those who make such a distinction.

Since I've asked you something personal, I will share something personal myself;

My wife had her first sexual experience when she was a sexually mature 14. She told me about it after we'd been dating for 3 years. She told me the basic details of how she met him, where they went, that they had intercourse, and that he was very gentle. I was a disgusted with the adult (he was 23 at the time of the encounter), but I asked her, "Was it a good experience?"

She said, "Well, it wasn't bad, but I wouldn't call it 'good'... I'm sure it could have been much better."

She's a very well adjusted professional now. We've been married for 8 years, together for 11. She let him carry her to the field, she let him do what he did because she was curious. She does not hate herself for allowing it to happen, she does not consider herself 'violated' or 'taken advantage of'. She's merely written it off as 'one of those stupid things'.

I had a friend in High School, she was raped in a field, her face pushed into the mud, her body violated. She was terrified, shocked, and wounded both physically and emotionally. She's never quite gotten over it even though I did what I could to help.

Are you saying these two instances are the same?

They are obviously not.

One was a vicious attacker, the other was, at worst, taking advantage of a young girl. One girl was scarred permanently, the other, my wife, felt absolutely no adverse effects.

There is a very big difference between men who violently assault women against their will, and men who seek 'consensual' sex with teenage girls.

If you cannot make that distinction, then perhaps your experience affected you too profoundly to comment objectively on these issues?

The bottom line is that the 'men' on these shows are not 'rapists', they're just weak.

[fascisthunter]

223. I'm Sorry, demgurl

I'm sorry that anyone should have to go through this. The idea horifies me because I was once almost raped. It was a bad experience for me, and I was too ashamed to even tell my parents about it at the time. I felt weak and it made me very ashamed at the time, so I kind of know. Not that it should matter, but I'm a male.

But enough of me, I have had close relationships (friends mainly) with females who have told me they were raped but never told anyone at the time because they were ashamed or scared. My mother was also raped, and had a child. At that time and because of where she grew up, she was to be blamed so she never pressed charges. She was shunned by people in her own town just for being raped. People that had known her since she was a baby did this to her. It as if people just shut down at some point due to their own cowardice and just play along with the shaming of a victim. She ended up leaving her country, got married to my father who was a GI and moved here without "that" child. The experience split her from her own son.

Today things are better for the two of them. And I hope the same for you.

[helderheid]

224. What a powerful story. Thanks for sharing.

:hug:

[demgurl]

233. fascisthunter.....

Thank you for your kind words and your inspiring story.

Much love to you and yours.

demgurl

[NoBorders]

241. I was repeatedly molested by a teacher

when young. And I still think the show is a travesty. I would never watch it. I don't take pleasure or find entertainment in watching lives fall apart. The show doesn't do much for the vast majority of sex abuse which is committed by people who are familiar with the victim, and creates the impression that the the biggest danger is from random strangers.

I suggest anyone following this and previous thread read the entire article.

[demgurl]

251. I am sorry you were abused.

I think everyone should know what is going on if it is real. Sure people should read the article and follow up on their own.

I do hope people now realize this thread has nothing to do at all with TCAP or even the Duke rape case. Not one single bit. It is all about certain sentiments expressed by certain people.

[NoBorders]

252. I gotcha.

I guess I missed the point a little. Emotional, painful issue. Not the least bit trivial or funny.

[demgurl]

261. Yes, there are some things you can joke about and......

there are just some you don't. I just thought some people might be trying to be funny - maybe even lighten up a very heavy subject with jokes not thinking about how it may make others feel. It is not even a politically correct issue which I know some people go way overboard with. It is the fact that many of us did not report our rape because of the way others perceive rape and how we felt we would be on trial. When we hear people stating some things that have been stated we feel our worst fears are confirmed.

It is that much harder, for people like me, who also question themselves whether they were responsible for the rape in any way. When you can't even count on your own mind not to betray such an emotional event then how can you possibly count on strangers to make reporting easy? This is especially so when you hear declarations that appear to excuse the rapist.

I do believe we need to make sure our justice system runs well at all times. I think people with concerns have reasons for their concerns. They should always read up on everything and make sure all is being done by the book.

Our laws are very strict when it comes to minors because they are the weakest most innocent citizens. I believe in that protection and that means I believe in people with legitimate questions making sure these kids are protected as much as they can be. I encourage people to read up on this group (PJ) but keep an open mind so you will see all. Nothing is so perfect that it can not be improved upon and I know it must have been hard for you to pursue reading that article when you went through such a trauma yourself. Kudos to you and thanks for understanding my stance.

Peace!

[NoBorders]

267. yeah, I didn't report it either

I thought I somehow precipitated it. I did tell my best friend sometime after but I didn't tell my parents until about 20 years later. In the meantime, the perpetrator did get caught with some other kid or kids and went to jail. One of those kids was so ashamed he later committed suicide. That's totally fucked up.

In anycase, the original point of your post seemed to be more about people reacting unthinkingly to the whole issue of sex abuse without thinking about the gravity of it, rather than on the merits of the show itssel.

Peace to you.

[demgurl]

271. When a rape happens ...

we are sometimes our own worst enemy. You did not precipitate the rape in any way. My mind does this to me as well but stay strong in your belief because it is true. It is wrong when we live with the shame of another person's actions. It is even worse when they are free to do the same thing to others.

May you find peace within yourself and know you are not to blame for any events in the past.

[Feron]

244. There are more survivors out there than people realize.

Both my parents were raped (and yes rape happens to men as well), my great-grandmother was raped by her father-in-law, and many of my friends were either raped or molested. As far as I know, none were reported.

And you don't realize how many survivors are out there until you start talking to people. And those are just the people that talk about it. It's sad and my heart goes out to all survivors. A person isn't dirty or shameful for being a victim. What's disgusting are the people that disbelieve those who speak out.

An excellent book for both survivors and loved ones is Marilyn Van Derber's book Miss America By Day. Don't let the Miss America part stop you because it isn't a pageant memoir and it isn't just for women. It really helped my mother and it helped me understand where survivors are coming from.

[NaturalHigh]

256. I've watched the show a few times.

Most of the "predators" I've seen on there were real slugs who deserved some serious time behind bars. However, I'm not at all sure that many (if not most) of them wouldn't beat the charges in court if they were smart enough to keep their mouths shut instead of telling their life stories to the Dateline guy.