I'll say it again: McAuliff, Penn and Carville are boat anchors to Hillary. They helped sink her.

[David Zephyr]

Anyone who has read my posts here knows that I have been confounded by Hillary's continued embrace of the three male toadies that have stunk up her campaign: Mark Penn, Terry McAuliff and Mark Penn. Well, tonight may have proven them to be even worse for her than I imagined.

Hillary, you lost even among women. Who are you? What do you stand for anymore? You are not the agent of change. Who are you?

Barack beat you by nearly 10%. You were romped. You came in third. You are on the ropes.

Mark Penn, Terry McAuliff and James Carville. Fire them all or your campaign is over.

And while I'm at it, perhaps is now the time to apologize for your vote to make war with Iraq like John Edwards had the decency to do long ago.

[tabasco]

1. Hillary's lack of leadership & pandering are bigger anchors. n/t

[autorank]

2. That's one nasty trifecta...ouch. I knew about Penn but combined with the others. Damn.

[SoCalDem]

3. McAuliffe's a slathering, greasy-looking goof

He gives me the willies, every time I see him.. :eyes:

[David Zephyr]

10. And he loves to be on television more than even Carville.

McAuliff put all the Democratic money on Florida in 2000 and 2004 killing Gore and Kerry. He also was steward to the mid-term disaster in 2002.

Thank goodness we have Howard Dean now at the helm.

I can't believe that Hillary has these sleezy jerks still telling her what to do.

[Nikki Stone1]

4. Weren't they her husband's team?

I think personal loyalty may play a big part here.

[AlGore-08.com]

5. She would have won if she'd only used Bill Clinton more & emphasized his record!

Sorry, somebody had to say it. ;)

[CorpGovActivist]

16. I Wonder If Al Gore Has a ...

... "popcorn headache" tonight?

:popcorn:

:rofl:

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

24. .

[Spiffarino]

6. She's been sucked in and cannot escape.

The Beltway Vortex pulled her into its deadly grasp.

It's too late for her.

The woman I once adored is one of "them" now.

:cry:

[David Zephyr]

15. It may be too late for her now, but if they don't fire these three immediately...she's toast.

Hillary sure lets' a lot of creepy men influence her.

I wish she'd just fire them all and did way down inside herself and find herself before it's all over in New Hampshire.

It's a sorry end for her, but these three have poisoned her.

Maybe she has become one of "them". Sad.

I don't know who she is anymore.

[book_worm]

7. I'm not sure Joe Trippi did Edwards any favors either

He helped run Howard Dean's campaign four years ago into the ground by spending all the money they raised before Iowa leaving little after--and then he resigned (probably fired).

[David Zephyr]

11. I don't know. I think that Trippi helped John Edwards. Edwards beat HIllary.

I think that JE might come in second again in New Hampshire.

[Ikonoklast]

8. Maybe the 'inside the beltway' political cognoscenti

Are just out of touch with the rest of the Democratic electorate? .

Just trotting out the 'ol tried and true campaign boilerplate ain't gonna make it. Sure left the younger and female voters cold.

[Neshanic]

9. She's out of the race. All that money for nothing, except Carville's lunches.

[emilyg]

17. Out of the race?

Thanks for a good laugh.

[salin]

20. wow - that's premature.

[global1]

12. I Agree - They Think They Are Really Clever And That They Can Out-Rove A Rove......

but bottom line - the American people have had 7 years of the kind of tactics that Penn, McAuliff and Carville are pushing onto Hillary and we've become sensitive and knowing when we're being manipulated. Their tactics don't work anymore. This is why 'change' in '08 is so important.

[Downtown Hound]

13. We are still suffering the effects of McAuliff's stint as chairman

He let the Republicans steal the Congress and the presidency away from us year after year. We lost elections we should have won easily thanks to him. Dean came in and kicked ass, and rescued us from his pathetic leadership.

McAuliff=loser and sellout.

As for Penn and Carville, time to retire and hit the golf course boys. Your time in the sun ended long ago.

[David Zephyr]

18. I wish more here were aware of just how bad McAuliff hurt Democrats, Downtown Hound.

It also concerns me by no small measure how wrapped up Hillary's campaign is with these three men.

[Downtown Hound]

21. One of my favorite lines from McAuliff was right after the Democrats lost the

2002 Congressional elections, and the Republicans had just taken the Senate back. McAuliff said that things weren't really all that bad for the Democrats, because they had raised a lot of money during the campaign. That pretty much told me everything I needed to know about him. There was no thought given to how the people of America might suffer under this new leadership or what the Iraqis were about to go through. McAuliff completely pushed the DLC into the hands of corporations and as a result, moved the party to the right. He gave up on ever trying to win a red state, ceding over half of the country to the Repukes. It wasn't until Dean came along that a serious attempt was even made to try and get some of those states back.

Not only did McAuliff give up an enormous amount of ground to the right, he also alienated much of the Democratic base by trying to be more and more like them, and taking money from the same sources they were. As much as we love to bash Nader, the truth is people like McAuliff have a tremendous amount of responsibility as to why Nader ever got as many votes as he did in 2000.

Yeah, that man nearly killed the Democratic Party. Howard Dean will likely never get the credit for it, but my belief is that he came in and literally saved the party from destroying itself. His 50 state strategy was nothing short of brilliant. The further away that McAuliff, Carville, and the rest of that bunch of dinosaurs are from our government the better. They had their day in the sun, and they had a one successful Clinton presidency to show for it. They don't need, and will not get another. The world is different today. Bush made sure to see to that. We need new ideas and new leaders, not old ones.

[hfojvt]

14. I can only wish that she was sunk

She came from way behind in Iowa, a state her husband did not win either. Obama got 16 delegates, Clinton 15 and Edwards 14. Total delegate score so far - Clinton 175, Obama 75 and Edwards 46. I'd like to think that this will tip over her bandwagon, but the pessimist in me says that she still does not have a stake through her heart. Not even close. She's really not even wounded, much less fatally.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080104/ap_on_el_pr/caucus_rdp_115;_ylt=An.aq3Or2Kc7m_qr1e5uPF5B5494

[Individualist]

19. Her DLC membership and stance on the war are even heavier anchors. nt

[mod mom]

22. On Carville (for all newbies):

Did Carville Tip Bush Off to Kerry Strategy (Woodward)


By M.J. Rosenberg | bio




On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

-snip

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

-snip

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward



Globalism extends to the American way of campaigning, it seems, and the hubris of the gringo strategists — earnest ex-Clintonistas employed by James Carville’s Greenberg Carville Shrum group — would be hilarious if human lives and a country’s political will weren’t at stake.
It’s a galling and provocative experience to viewers of any political persuasion, and a reminder to the left of how easily idealism can run amok.
The Carville boys were hired by Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada, a.k.a. ‘‘Goni,’’ a patrician Bolivian businessman who served a rough term as Bolivia’s president in the mid-’90s. Goni’s legacy was an unsuccessful program of ‘‘capitalization’’ (i.e., he welcomed foreign investment and watched foreigners get all the jobs).
By 2002, the time of filming, unemployment is through the roof and rural campesinos are agitating for political representation. Goni is old news and his poll numbers are dismal. Enter Jeremy Rosner, Greenberg Carville Shrum’s point man in Bolivia, an articulate manipulator of mass moods (and a fellow who bears an uncanny resemblance to Seth Meyers of ‘‘Saturday Night Live’’ — reality parodies itself here better than any comic could).
-snip
http://www.boston.com/ae/movies/articles/2006/06/30/a_campaign_in_bolivia_thats_made_in_america/

[Hidden Stillness]

23. How Much Their Fault, How Much Hers?...

This is such an interesting and perceptive question, and can be analyzed far beyond the immediate, rather shockingly incompetant campaign the "unstoppable Clinton/'D'LC machine" has run, to a larger question of the existence of the corporate lobbying, "D"LC cabal itself, and the end of its time. It is even possible to think that there isn't anything even "wrong" here, but that this group, which co-oped and largely destroyed the Democratic Party itself during the '90s until now, has finally become so arrogant and corrupted, like "their friends" the Republicans, that they are now just being rebelled against, and thrown out. They actually do not appear to have any real connection to the American people anymore, and so when they are shmoozing with their high-priced lobbyists, they are fine, but when they are pitching themselves to the American people, as now, it comes out more and more peculiar. Their inability to find the way to express themselves to the citizens of the country now, is just a logical extension of their kicking us in the teeth and shoving us out of the National leadership of the Democratic Party before.

I wondered how much of this was the fault of the "consultants," and how much was the corporate "D"LC attitudes of the Clintons themselves, until I heard some comments from Hillary Clinton during a speech at New Hampshire today on C-SPAN, where it was all "tax credits," and "personal retirement accounts," and "middle class tax cuts," and "private sector"/"government bureaucracy" again, and I realized they are all the same group. When the "D"LC was running things, they laughed at the "activists" and "populists," and threatened anyone who attempted any reform of the big-lobbyist system--I remember the firestorm of threads on DU a few years ago, when Tom Vilsack and Hillary Clinton both gave very arrogant, sneering, throw-their-weight-around speeches, acting like they were going to throw out of the whole Democratic Party anyone who challenged their control...Now we come to this. The people in the country are angry and afraid, at the deepening recession, the decline of America in the world, and the complete loss of our National historical direction and progress itself.

They can no longer kick us in the teeth and keep their "D"LC club; that is over, and even Bill Clinton now seems to be receeding into the past. Their entire conscious relation is to profits and corporations, protecting stocks and investments, deregulation, "choice" even when the subject is health care (?), and now a whole new wave of history has begun, and the Clinton camp doesn't get it and would never cooperate. When, for example, Barack Obama refers to corporate lobbyists and the insurance and pharmaceutical industries controlling legislation, and how they will be kicked out and the people will control our Government again, these statements get rousing cheers and applause every time. This is what time it is getting to be.

Hillary Clinton has never really sounded like anything but a corporate male to me; she has never used the kinds of examples, concerns, anger, logical principles, life-situation references that you hear women use all the time. I do not even relate to her as a supposed "feminist," or whatever she is or claims to be. I always thought that I would be so excited and thrilled, so hopeful again, if a woman ever had an actual chance to win, but I really do not relate to her at all. Shirley Chisholm said famously that she had suffered more discrimination as a woman than as a black, but I have heard absolutely nothing at all about the oppression, and the hopes, of women--it seems we are so oppressed, that we don't even dare mention our separate existence, our reality. She seems like a totally corporate male-controlled mouthpiece, with all the life strangled out of her.

[madfloridian]

25. When Carville implicated the Clintons in his attack on Dean...

they should have spoken up loudly and said they were not in on it. But there was not a word. So either he was right or they did not consider it important.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/838

"What about the Clintons, who, given Hillary’s presidential ambitions, have more cause for concern about who runs the DNC in 2008? “Let’s just say nobody has called me telling me this is a bad idea. Sometimes silence is eloquence.” Not only did Carville’s coup fail but it arguably strengthened Dean, who, speaking before his state-party allies, mocked the attempt as a desperate attack from the “old Democratic Party.” Cutting his losses, Rahm quickly leaked word to the press that he and Dean had negotiated a truce".

[Kucinich4America]

26. If Hillary doesn't realize that Carville and McAwful are liabilities by now

...it's hard to feel any sympathy for her at all. As for Penn, his resume alone is enough reason for anyone who calls herself a "Democrat" to run as far away from him as possible.

Hillary made this bed. Now her campaign can rot and die in it.

[CorpGovActivist]

29. .

[Tatiana]

27. Yep. But Hill has lost her way and if she doesn't find it soon, she's going to lose.

Not just because of Carville, Penn, & McAuliff, but because of what voters see her as: more of the same status quo. This country and these people want change, and not minuscule change either. They want BIG change and that's why you see Obama and Edwards gaining in popularity, while the beltway or establishment candidates are not doing as well (in either party).

[CorpGovActivist]

28. Eventually Even the MessageMakers...

... can't sell a flawed product.

- Dave