When Bill and Chelsea Match Elizabeth and Cate on LGBT Issues, Then Maybe My LGBT Household...

[CorpGovActivist]

... will tune back in to the Clinton Campaign.

Both http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=elizabeth+edwards+gay+rights">Elizabeth Edwards and http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cate+edwards+gay+rights">Cate Edwards have spoken out - publicly, forcefully, and repeatedly - in favor of LGBT equality.

When the Clinton Camp can match those top tier surrogates toe-to-toe, then my LGBT household will tune back in to what she has to say.

- Dave

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. But Edwards is not in favor of LGBT equality.

You can't be against gay marriage and say you're for equality.

[CorpGovActivist]

5. What's Wrong with Being...

... a "more ambitious incrementalist" than the other candidates?

- Dave

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. It's bigoted.

That's what's wrong.

Nor do I believe he's any different than the other candidates on this issue.

[hiaasenrocks]

10. How is John Edwards bigoted in any legal sense of the issue we're talking about?

Everyone enjoys the same treatment under the Fourteenth Amendment with regard to marriage. Yes, I am making a technical legal argument, but laws and rights tend to have that pesky "technical" aspect to them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. The same way it was bigoted to be against interracial marriage forty years ago.

Even though it was illegal, despite the 14th amendment.

[hiaasenrocks]

16. That's actually not a good comparison.

As it exists now, I, as a straight person, have the same marital restrictions as a homosexual person. Everyone has those restrictions regarding gender and marriage. I can not marry someone of the same sex. Homosexuals can marry someone of the opposite sex. There is no legal inequality, until you get to preference, and laws are not based on that.

There was no such equal treatment of the entire population when it came to race and marriage.

So there's that, and the insulting nature of comparing race to sexual preference.

I wish I could stick around to discuss this, because I think it's important to get the legal aspect correct and I'm sure this thread will devolve into a name-calling battle, but I have to get to a meeting. If you'd like to PM me to discuss this, feel free.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

Oh I disagree.

I think it's a bang on comparison.

Jokers forty years ago would say it's perfectly legal for black people to marry people of their own race, and they've got the same rights as me, therefore it's equal treatment under the law.

"the insulting nature of comparing race to sexual preference."

The only people who I could imagine being insulted by the comparison would be homophobes.

[hiaasenrocks]

23. Glad you could respond so quickly.

I haven't left yet.

And I do see that, as predicted, we're into name-calling now. The term "homophobe" implies an irrational fear of something that is the same as the person who is irrationally fearful, so it makes no sense in linguistic terms.

In the commonly used sense of that word, it's just name-calling, and name-calling is a refuge for those who have exhausted their reason and logic.

I'm still interested in this debate, so anyone who is able to carry on a calm, rational discussion, PM me. I do have to get going now.

:hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

24. I Would Be Interested...

... in a civil and respectful discussion of viewpoints.

- Dave

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. Being against gay marriage implies irrational fear.

Citing equal protection to defend homophobia implies grasping at straws.

"I'm still interested in this debate, so anyone who is able to carry on a calm, rational discussion, PM me."

You know, if you want to bow out of the debate, but please don't cite calmness and rationality in your defense.

[CorpGovActivist]

26. .

[northzax]

43. Sure it is

it's actually, given the societal constructs at the times, a pretty apt comparison. Pre Loving, I, as a white male, had the exact same rights as every other white male, I had the same rights as everyother white male, indeed every other male, I could marry any female of my own race I wished. Race is a silly concept now, but it wasn't then to many people. Sex is the same way now.

[CorpGovActivist]

44. Agreed! n/t

[CorpGovActivist]

47. Contrast Miscegenation Laws and the New Jim Crow Laws...

... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=virginia+gay+marriage">barring partnership benefits.

Thanks for offering to weigh in in a civil and respectful way.

- Dave

P.S. I studied miscegenation in college.

[DarkTirade]

74. On the other hand, men and women don't have the same marriage rights as each other right now.

Women are allowed to marry men, yet men are not. And vice versa. Which means that right now men and women have a 'seperate but equal' kind of marriage right. Which does relate directly to previous cases and laws involving segregation.

[CorpGovActivist]

28. .

[CorpGovActivist]

68. How Is Marriage Inequality Not in Any Moral Sense...

... of the issue?

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

17. If I'm Asking People with Deeply-Held Religious Beliefs to Respect My Partner and Me...

... I think I have to respect them as they wrestle with the intersection of their progressive beliefs and their religious beliefs.

- Dave

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. It doesn't matter if it's a deeply held religous belief.

Respect them? Fuck no.

[CorpGovActivist]

22. Well, I Grew up Steeped...

... in an evangelical church, and most of my extended family members are either Baptist or members of one of various Pentecostal denominations.

Luckily, our mom deprogrammed my siblings and me after each sermon.

However, having seen thoughtful loved ones wrestle with what they'd been taught in church, and what they'd been taught from progressive, secular influences, I think the best approach is to let each person come around.

It helps when loved ones they respect are helping to nudge them toward full equality.

Hence the OP.

- Dave

[JuniperLea]

45. Jesus never taught hate...

I grew up in an evangelical church too... I'm a straight female, but I know exactly what you are talking about. I asked very good questions... but they weren't received well. I got yelled at a bit too... how Christian is that? Just because they couldn't answer simple questions like, aren't you still supposed to love the "sinner"? If you believe it's a sin, aren't you supposed to show how much you are like Jesus and love that person all the more? Jesus never forced anyone to do anything (except for that cool money-changers deal) so why do you feel the need to force people who are all God's children into doing something that God decided not to force them into from the beginning?

I think the best approach is to let each person come around... that's beautiful.

[CorpGovActivist]

46. Amen, Hallelujah, and Pass the Plate!

Would it be impolite to ask which denomination?

Wanna watch a Pentecostal's head explode?

See the OP, and #9 downthread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2529514">here.

- Dave

[JuniperLea]

48. Assembly of God

I started out attending a Methodist church, then started at the Assembly of God with other family members. I much prefer Methodists. But because of all the hypocrisy, I'm now a staunch Agnostic:) We weren't quite as strict as the Pentecostals; we wore make-up and mini skirts to church... :O I had a music ministry until I started getting flack from elders about how that rock 'n roll beat was straight from the depths of hell! Even though God created everything, somehow, Satan created the rock! Bovine excrement, I say.

I'm betting we are pretty much on the same page in the same hymnal, same pew... different church:) If you get my drift:)

I have a cousin who is a missionary... I love her dearly... sometimes we don't see eye to eye, and those times are great practice in civility, for both of us I'm sure:)

Always good to find someone who can relate to my hauntingly destructive childhood! :hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

49. We Tried Them...

... after my parents' divorce. The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_God_%28Cleveland%2C_Tennessee%29">Church of God (Cleveland, TN) was the denomination I grew up in. We did the Assemblies of God for about a summer.

"I started out attending a Methodist church,"

Have you seen http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105265/">A River Runs Through It? Tom Skerritt plays a Presbyterian minister in Montana. My stepgrandfather (Presbyterian) used to call me into his study, like Skerritt's character, and ask me during holidays from college about what I planned to do with my "fine education." The line in which the narrator speaks of the Methodist girl he's dating - "They were Methodists, a denomination my father referred to as Baptists who could read." - cracks me up every time. We're a family of fly fishers, and I have a wild child younger brother. The movie gets me every time. It's like Beaches for fly fishers.

"We weren't quite as strict as the Pentecostals; we wore make-up and mini skirts to church"

LOL. My next door neighbor and I BEGGED my mom to let me go see my first movie on the big screen when I was 5: Star Wars. After about a week, she relented. She'd lightened way up on this stuff by our teen years. School dances were A-OK.

"I had a music ministry until I started getting flack from elders about how that rock 'n roll beat was straight from the depths of hell!"

The state church camp each summer played records backwards to prove the Satanic verses! LOL!!!

"Even though God created everything, somehow, Satan created the rock!"

That's an easy one. Look up all the passages about all the joyful noisemaking instruments you're supposed to use.

; )

"I'm betting we are pretty much on the same page in the same hymnal, same pew... different church ... If you get my drift"

One of these days, I'm going back to the church we grew up in and reclaiming the family pew. We paid for it, and there's a little brass plaque that says so!

:rofl:

"I have a cousin who is a missionary... I love her dearly... sometimes we don't see eye to eye, and those times are great practice in civility, for both of us I'm sure"

I enjoy similar such encounters with my extended family.

"Always good to find someone who can relate to my hauntingly destructive childhood!"

Pshaw! It's a rich vein for writing. Church camp alone was a hoot.

Nice to meet you!

:wave:

- Dave

[JuniperLea]

52. I learned some of my orneriest camp tricks at church camp!

Reclaim the family pew! I've often wanted to go back to that church in full Goth dress:)

But it's not the same church anymore... you see, the pastor had an affair with one of the married church members. And in learning of his transgressions, his wife tried to commit suicide. This was long before Jim and Tammy Faye, or any of the other evangelical extra-marital escapades hit the news.

Nice to meet you too, Dave!

[CorpGovActivist]

53. Do You Know How to Ibby-Bibby?

:rofl:

Camp tricks!

I was a counselor, too. Saran Wrap on the toilet seats, ketchup packets under the toilet seat, set to spray into the bowl, red dye in the shower heads, toothpaste on the toes, shaving cream in the open palm/feather tickle on the nose, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

:rofl:

"I've often wanted to go back to that church in full Goth dress"

Might cause a laying-on-of-hands.

"But it's not the same church anymore... you see, the pastor had an affair with one of the married church members. And in learning of his transgressions, his wife tried to commit suicide. This was long before Jim and Tammy Faye, or any of the other evangelical extra-marital escapades hit the news."

Funny, after we left, there were all kinds of high drama of that order of magnitude, too! There was a murder-suicide, a schism (a la http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=holy+hand+grenade+antioch">Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch), etc.

- Dave

P.S. The http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=holy+hand+grenade+antioch+monty+python+breakfast+cereals&hl=en&sitesearch=">Monty Python video.

[JuniperLea]

54. The Triple Threat!

Saran Wrap on the bowl, vaseline on the inside door knob, no towels:)

Onward Christian Soldiers!!

:rofl:

[CorpGovActivist]

56. Marching As...

... "two whores..."

Oh, the "substitute lyrics" during church camp evening meetings/singing.

- Dave

[JuniperLea]

69. We did that during practice for a Christmas program one year...

And many of us were near tears as we tried to stay on track... we'd teased each other before about singing the wrong lyrics... so... later on, we'll perspire, as we drink by the fire, and face unafraid the bastard children we'd made, walking in a winter wonderland.

That was a tame one;)

[CorpGovActivist]

70. Ah, Christmas Choir!

I lit a girl's hair on fire, by accident, when I was 4.

:rofl:

Ah, to have had camcorders and America's Funniest back then!

- Dave

[Mr_Monday]

40. First lair never wins.

Same thing goes when disrespecting people.

[bobbolink]

30. Well, damn.... if you're going to go all reasonable on us...

:applause:

Very well put!

[CorpGovActivist]

32. When I'm Right, I'm Right; When I'm Unsure, I'm Unsure...

... but regardless, I try to be reasonable.

; )

- Dave

[Warren DeMontague]

31. You can respect them as they wrestle in terms of running THEIR OWN LIVES

The problem is, folks with these "deeply-held religious beliefs" as pertains to gay marriage don't seem to want to keep themselves from having gay marriages, they want to keep EVERYONE ELSE from having them.

Your "deeply held religious beliefs" end at the boundaries of YOUR HEAD. Once they become an excuse to run OTHER PEOPLES' LIVES, they are a problem.

Look- I like Edwards. A lot. But the rights and equality of my GLBT friends and fellow citizens are not up for "incremental" negotiation. On this one, he's wrong.

[CorpGovActivist]

33. If I Could Crawl into His Head...

... and rewire the circuitry on this issue, I would.

The point of the OP is that people who have access to his "fusebox" are very much in favor of full equality.

Your premise is well-taken though. I remember my Civics teacher/basketball coach saying that, "The right to extend your hand ends at my face," to illustrate that rights are not unfettered.

- Dave

[Warren DeMontague]

34. At this point, odds are good that I may vote for Edwards.

But his answer on this and a couple other issues certainly bothered me. I did like what EE had to say on the matter, though.

[CorpGovActivist]

36. She Absolutely ROCKS!

Their eldest daughter is soooooooooooooo bright, too.

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

29. Which of the Three Leading Dem Candidates...

... do you think is least imperfect on this issue?

- Dave

[hiaasenrocks]

2. Why do you care what Chelsea thinks about your private life?

[CorpGovActivist]

3. Because I Assume Her Mom Respects Her Opinion n/t

[hiaasenrocks]

4. So what you're REALLY concerned with is people

respecting differing opinions?

[CorpGovActivist]

6. No, I'm Concerned with Who...

... would be whispering what in the President's ear.

- Dave

[hiaasenrocks]

8. OK, so "no" to respecting differing opinions. What about the fact

that Elizabeth and Cate have had John's ear for many, many years and he still stands by his original principles?

I don't think there's much difference between Hillary Clinton and John Edwards on this issue.

[CorpGovActivist]

11. I Respect Differing Opinions, but in This Scenario...

... I'm more concerned with what the White House Residence conversations about LGBT issues sound like.

I respect your differing opinion on the degrees of difference between the stand that Elizabeth and Cate have taken, and the quietude of Bill and Chelsea.

- Dave

[hiaasenrocks]

13. OK. Well, if we're talking about what is said in the privacy of

the White House residence, none of us really know anything about that, no matter who is in the White House. We're pretty much left with assuming what is said, based on what politicians tell us or hint at in public. And I doubt very much there are too many rational people who take the word of any politician.

[CorpGovActivist]

14. Well, at Least with the Edwardses...

... we know the rough contours of the dining room and living room battlefield.

- Dave

[zalinda]

19. Actually, they never talked about it until

he started to run in this campaign. When he was asked about gay marriage, he didn't know that Elizabeth had given an interview that said she was all for it. He was surprised when he was told about it. He said he had a problem with it (I think it's with the word, marriage) but that he was working on it. He is for every legal right that goes along with marriage for same sex couples.

I think this is the great dividing line with most people. Marriage has become both a sanction by the "church" and state term. It should have only been a word for "sanctioned by the church" and civil unions are only sanctioned by the state. It may take a while to get the kinks worked out so every one can be happy.

zalinda

[CorpGovActivist]

21. Oops! No Triangulating Their Positions?!?

However would that White House Residence function?

; )

- Dave

[bobbolink]

35. IMPORTANTLY, he also said that he would do NOTHING to stand in the way of

gay marriage initiatives.

That's important to remember, because so many have painted his very honest response as against gays.

He's not at all.

[CorpGovActivist]

37. Important Nuance! n/t

[bobbolink]

38. Absolutely! When asked, he did what DUers have begged for... he was HONEST.

He said, as you've reported, it's what he was wired for, and that he's struggling with it.

Honest and honorable.

Deserves respect.

As he respects others.

[CorpGovActivist]

41. I Urge My LGBT and Other Friends, Family Members, Etc.

... to watch Edwards' appearance at the Visible Vote forum event.

It's a sincere set of answers.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

55. Where is that available? Have you posted this at DU?

Thanks for the info!

[CorpGovActivist]

57. Yup!

But here is the link again: http://visiblevote08.logoonline.com/

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

67. .

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. i dont see why bill and chelsea have to offer me anythign. i am not voting for them.

edwards is not offering me anymore than clinton is.

just a year or so ago edwards had trouble deciding whether homosexuality was moral or not on MTP.

[CorpGovActivist]

15. When I Hear Edwards Talk...

... I hear reflected the honest wrestling and wrangling that some of my own extended family members had to go through; they're now among the staunchest supporters of equality.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

58. That's exactly what I hear, too. And that's the kind of conversion that brings peace and

reconcilliation.

I'm so glad you posted that.

It's exactly what I heard from him talking about it.

It really hurt me to hear gay folk turn that into him being against them.

We all have our issues, and all we can do is to struggle with them, and work for peace with each other.

That's all there is, in the end.

:pals:

[CorpGovActivist]

60. Well, Now I Have to Go Dust off The Beatles Collection...

... and play me some Lennon.

; )

- Dave

[bobbolink]

63. ...while you read some Nelson Mandella...

:hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

65. Ooooooooooh...Synchronicity!!!

I was just thinking last night how much more effective HIS 27 years in prison were, experience-wise!

Jinks!

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

66. Well, Then I Guess the Edwardses Offer More Value...

... for the vote, as a prospective First Family.

- Dave

[DS1]

18. All four in one household?

Cool!

[CorpGovActivist]

27. The LGBT Community Can Take a Page from "Union Households"...

... and show solidarity, without belonging to every group.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

39. There you go--not only being reasonable, but sensible and honorable!

DANG!

:hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

42. What a Heartbreak the ENDA Debate Has Been n/t

[bobbolink]

59. Which debate?

signed,

DUer hopelessly out of touch....

:hi:

[CorpGovActivist]

61. There Has Been Vigorous Debate...

... over whether the T in the LGBT community should be excluded from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enda">ENDA.

- Dave

[bobbolink]

62. Oh, for crying in a bucket! Are they human? Do they work?

Yes? Yes?

Then what the hell is the controversy??

Geeeez, can we two-leggeds ever grow up and just accept each other?

[CorpGovActivist]

64. Douglas Adams...

... had us pegged.

- Dave

[Bluebear]

50. Anymore I am thrilled that Democratic candidates don't hold Gospel concerts with anti-gay sermons.

A la Obama.

[CorpGovActivist]

51. McClurkin Rankles...GRRRR n/t

[xchrom]

71. ok -- i don't have a candidate yet -- but hillary has marched in Pride parades.

that's fairly significant.

and while i deplore doma -- bill hired -- in very visible positions -- out gay folk -- and one ambassador.
take that for you feel it's worth.

[CorpGovActivist]

72. James Hormel, Heir to the Hormel Foods Fortune...

... was indeed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hormel">the first openly-gay ambassador representing the US.

That appointment - which I'm sure had nothing to do with donations - did not convey a single right to my partner and me.

Nor have Bill or Chelsea made their positions clear on this issue, or discussed how they might advise a future President Clinton.

By contrast, both Elizabeth and Cate Edwards have stepped up to the plate, and knocked back-to-back grand slams.

- Dave

[xchrom]

73. indeed no it didn't convey a single right to you --

but it wasn't just hormel -- and the positions were significant.
at the same time in history -- would the edwards have been able to convey a right?

i am more than likely voting for edwards -- obama i won't do -- and i don't care about the family.

i'm voting for the person running.