Women will pay a price if they get angry or cry.

[undeterred]

Poll question: Women will pay a price if they get angry or cry.

I'm talking about the public sphere here, the workplace, not the private sphere of personal relationships.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Doesn't everybody?

[NC_Nurse]

No. Nobody calls Edwards "shrill" and he's angry. nt

[hiphopnation]

23. i have no doubt some repugs think of edwards as "shrill", and probably label him as such

:shrug:

[NC_Nurse]

26. Not here. that's what I meant.

[robbedvoter]

6. Yup, but women are stereotyped as "emotional" so the price is higher for them

(I almost wrote "stiffer" - then edited :+)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. I think a lot of people would take issue with that.

I bet there are those out there it's much more harmful for a man to be caught in public crying than a woman.

Me, I don't care. For a politician to be doing on a campaign trail strikes me as immature, unprofessional, and phony. I can't stand it when Bush or Boehner pull this shit, I'm not about to give Hillary a pass because she's a woman.

[robbedvoter]

37. Not giving her a pass on any of the serious stuff - not voting for her. OTOH

some of the posts here made me extremely angry and embarrassed for the quality of people here. Of all the justifiable objections to her, this one is the silliest - and gets the most play - because it really pushes buttons.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. It's a gaffe, like Dean's scream.

Anybody who's interested in justifiable objections against Clinton already knows all about them, but this minor gaffe on the eve of a big primary could have profound implications. It's not like Obama or Edwards would be getting less flak if the tables were turned.

[robbedvoter]

43. I disagree it's a gaffe - and I also disagree with the turned tables...She'd been

watched closely by the left and right for a "gaffe" - real or make believe Like Gary hart and his womanizing more likely - which we now know was a set-up...NY Post has a so called angry picture of her on the cover today, before "the crying" - only if you look - you can see she is half joking in that...No one would trip the other candidates on this type of stuff.

I remember when W was advised to show feelings after 9/11 and a constipated face made page one of papers - loaded with praise of course.(I tried finding it - but it seems to have been scrubbed - interesting, non?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Everybody's watched left and right for gaffes.

That's presidential politics.

Whether or not she deserves it, the media's got on heavy repeat and they get to decide whether it's a gaffe or not. Like Dean, for instance.

[skater314159]

52. Exactly.

Treating people equally means that it doesn't matter if they are black, white, male, female, gay, straight, bi or whatever... they *all* must follow the same rules and precepts.

I think that for Hillary, crying was inappropriate at this juncture... she is a strong woman who has handled more without breaking down in public.

I find it interesting that on this board, some people want women to be equal, except when they can use the old stereotypes to their advantage.

[never_get_over_it]

62. Well I see you're a man

so you've never experienced it - so let me answer your question - HELL NO

Have you ever been called emotional? have you ever been told you're shrill - or cold or that you're a bitch - or or or I could go on....

The other night people who do not support Hillary were comparing her answer to John Edwards about change to the Howard Dean scream. But I didn't see one person commenting on John Edwards very passionate - this is personal to me - I think he was every bit as firm and passionate in that response as Hillary was in hers but yet she gets called on it... and just for the record I do not support Hillary in the primaries - I support John Edwards - but I for one am going to defend a woman who is being treated unfairly - if people don't like her politics that is one thing but the gender based bias is way over the line.


and btw what is the equivalent male term for bitch anyway....

get the idea?

[Peregrine Took]

2. People will understand if a woman, honestly, shows some tears. Hey, we're

human beings aren't we - we all have our little breaking points.

[fenriswolf]

3. heh i was just about to say

you should see the price men pay for crying in public, both in the public spere and in the private.

[Mika]

4. I missed all forms of news today. Can someone point me to what happened today? re: Hillary breakdown

Thanks.

:hi:

[laconicsax]

5. Summation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qgWH89qWks

Subsequent article
http://myembarq.com/news/news_reader.php?storyid=15716362&feedid=224

[Mika]

13. Thank you.

I owe you one :toast: :beer:

I appreciate it. :thumbsup:

:hi:

[redwitch]

7. I have cried in front of other people on occasion.

Doesn't mean I'm not tough. And if you say otherwise, I will get Skittles to KICK YOUR ASS!

[Bonobo]

8. You ever had your father scream "Boys don't cry!" at you?!

Men have been told to not cry for generations and generations-been cut off from their emotions and told to put on a brave face. Women have not. So don't whine that Hillary is being pilloried because she cried. Men have been dealing with it for a looooooong time.

[maddiejoan]

17. one thing you get wrong

Did you look at the tape?

I really wouldn't call what Hillary was doing as "crying"

and not all men have had such horrible fathers.

[Bonobo]

20. You're right. She was whining in a manipulative way...and copying Edwards.

And many, many men have had fathers who told them they can't cry. Many.

[maddiejoan]

25. that wasn't whining or copying Edwards

or does Edwards have a trademark on personal™


the very fact that you call Hillary's heartfelt emotions whining is disappointing.

[Bonobo]

32. I don't think they were heartfelt, but calculating. Sorry to offend.

[maddiejoan]

33. Then Hillary should quit politics

and go into acting.

Because if she's THAT good --she could give Streep a run for her money

[Quantess]

9. I could never get elected President. I cry too easily.

Although, crying too easily is reason #287 out of 300 reasons why I wouldn't win an election.

[LiberalinNC]

10. Crying = weak!!!

Hillary's episode today will be spun that way!!

[robbedvoter]

38. Will be? Did you see Edwards' comment? Mr "Oops" himself:

"we need in a commander in chief is strength and resolve, and presidential campaigns are a tough business, but being President of the United States is also a very tough business. And the President of the United States is faced with very, very difficult challenges every single day, difficult judgments every single day."

[rucky]

11. Sometimes getting angry is the only way a woman can be taken seriously. n/t

[skooooo]

16. this is true nt.

[Quantess]

21. Getting angry maybe, but without getting "hysterical", so to speak.

The kind of anger that doesn't involve tears.

BTW the word "hysterical" is derived from Greek, meaning women's crazy temperaments caused by their uteruses.

[undeterred]

27. I totally agree.

But I also had an experience as a child where I got into a fight with a boy. I was the smartest girl in the class and I got in a fight with the smartest boy. It was the kind of thing the worse students did every day. The boy got in some trouble, but I got in a million times more trouble because I was a girl, and I was smart.

I remember pointing to a dumb boy in the class and saying, He does this every single day on the lunch hour and you don't make a big deal about it- Why are the rules different for me? I was in first grade and I already knew I had a different set of rules from the boys and it infuriated me. Plus getting good grades made it even worse- I was not allowed to be angry. Unbelievable socialization. I remember it like it was yesterday. And I never got in a fight like that one again-
girls are not allowed to fight out in the open like boys.

[Cant trust em]

12. There's a question missing on this poll.

Do women pay a greater price than men if they cry? The answer is no. If Obama teared up at an event he'd be totally finished. Women might pay a price, but it wouldn't end their campaign. I sincerely believe that to be the case for men.

[maddiejoan]

19. if any man had done exactly what Hillary did

at the diner today --it wouldn't have been called crying.

[undeterred]

31. That's a different poll.

Men are allowed occasional displays of emotion. But you're right, not too much. I worry about John Edwards, with the stress of the campaign and his wife's illness. If I were doing what he's doing - well I couldn't.

[JVS]

14. Crying is not a polite thing to do in public. It makes others very uncomfortable and can only...

be tolerated from children and babies, or at funerals. Crying says to the world: I'm unhappy and I'm going to make it your business. Now that women are acknowledged to be full adults, they are not allowed to cry in public, which was tolerated in the past.

[Mika]

24. Sez who?

So now that women are "full adults" ( :puke: ), just who's standard do women have to conform to?

[JVS]

29. Says the conventions of professional and public life that have emerged in our society.

Old rule: Men don't cry.
New rule: Adults don't cry.

[Mika]

45. Oh. I see. So women must now behave like men.

:wtf:

[JVS]

50. Are you telling me that women are not able to keep their composure?

Women should behave like adults because they are adults.

[undeterred]

55. And adults should never cry?

Being an adult means being a machine that never shows anger, sadness, or frustration? Are those the only banned emotions or are there others? What emotions, if any, are permitted?

[JVS]

75. Not in public

[sendero]

18. So will men..

... what is your point?

[Darth_Kitten]

22. Women pay a price for just about everything......

We always react the "wrong" way. :sarcasm:

[Rosemary2205]

42. Women's 1.7oz deodorant $2.95 - Men's 1.7oz deodorant $2.29

Speed stick and lady speed stick at Target.

[TahitiNut]

54. Yeah... because there's SOO much difference between the two.

:eyes:

[Annces]

28. I think men can get angry, but not women

That is still a double standard. I think neither can get by with tearful. People seem to approve of stoicism or humor, but not crying.

[undeterred]

36. An angry woman is "out of control"

An angry man is "righteous". Why don't we have a pile of shit icon? :nuke:

[robbedvoter]

41. And we know in whose control a woman should be....

[undeterred]

46. Can't you get your wife under control?

And if she has no husband or has a female partner, then she's really trouble.

[CatWoman]

30. now you've done it

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Canuckistanian]

34. Edmund Muskie

Crying in american politics is like crying on the bridge of a Klingon warship.

It's just not done.

[undeterred]

35. Klingon warships don't really exist.

Now I've gone and made you cry.

[robbedvoter]

40. This is DU-zie material - sniff, sniff - Santa I could take, but klingons? You cruel man!

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[undeterred]

47. Only a woman could be so cruel.

[robbedvoter]

48. Nooo! My eyes! It burns! it burns! The Golden Compass - movie( + book)

has a very evil character named Ms Coulter (loves watching kids being tortured and killed, etc) And they pretend it's a fantasy...

[skater314159]

53. I still say from a forensic anthropological view...

... she isn't completely/fully a woman. I think she is either a XY female or some other sort of transgendered or ambiguous gendered individual. I wouldn't have a problem with that (hey, I'm genderqueer!) but I do hate that she bashes gays, lesbians, genderqueer, bi, and etc. individuals. I think it's her fear that she will be found out.

[undeterred]

56. She's just full of hate.

It makes you look and act weird.

[lastliberalintexas]

65. Thank you

Damn I can't believe it took 34 posts for someone to mention Muskie. Or maybe it's just that I am old and Mr. Muskie is being forgotten- that might actually make me cry!

[undeterred]

66. I think Jimmy Carter cried when he lost the election to Reagan also.

And that was worth crying over. The beginning of decades of baloney.

[lastliberalintexas]

67. He did

A picture of his beautiful, tear-stained face was on the front page of my local paper the day after The Election That Shall Not Be Named*. Carter was attacked as weak during that campaign, and some right wingers still argue that. Compassion is a weakness, doncha know?



*To his dying day, my grandfather blamed everything wrong in the world on Ronald Reagan, and I mean EVERYTHING. :)

[undeterred]

70. I heard Ron Reagan jr on Air America recently

and he said point blank that the release of the American hostages held in Iran was completely arranged by President Carter and that his father had nothing to do with it. Their release was deliberately delayed to humiliate president Carter and make Reagan look good. Ron Reagan is an honest guy.

I cried when Carter lost too.

[Rosemary2205]

49. There's a difference between "getting angry" and "screaming"

IMHO the Hillary thing isn't about being passionate about her beliefs - it's about the fact some people (me included) find the sound quality of her voice when she speaks loudly to be irritating -- and some people (not me included) like to twist that quality into some sort of sign that she is unstable.

Women with shrill voices are pushed aside as hysterical nutjobs very often - but men are too. I myself have been guilty of making that judgement on a man in a mall once. He was only slightly excited in reality but his voice was quite shrill when he raised his voice even slightly. Everyone was looking at him as if expecting him to go postal any second. I myself commented "what an asshole" to my shopping companion. As we stood off a ways and watched, I realized his body language was very calm - it was just an odd voice quality for a man - clearly he was not really all that excited - just unfortunately cursed with a hysterical sounding voice. I ended up feeling a little sorry for him - wondering what a handicap it might be to having a social life -- judging by the reaction of the people around me, I was obviously not alone in my initial reaction.

[Orangepeel]

51. everybody pays a price for tears

Both are likely to be castigated as a little girl.

[never_get_over_it]

64. As a little girl

but not a little boy - oh that's right little boys aren't suppose to cry wouldn't be manly

JESUS do you even have a clue that your own remark is sexist...

Good lord after the shit I've seen at DU since Saturday's debate all I can say is for any of you who want any chance of electing a Dem for President you'd better pick the Southern white boy because this fucked up country isn't ready for a black man or any color woman - especially by the time the swiftboaters get through with Clinton or Obama

I weep for us....

[Orangepeel]

69. that was my point

a man crying in the work place would be perceived as feminine (and therefore weak)

[never_get_over_it]

71. Oh my

I'm so tempted to ask you how old you are - I can't decide if you're way older than me or way younger for the record I'm about right smack in the middle....

did you forget to use the sarcasim thingy or do you really not understand how COMPLETELY SEXIST what you just wrote is?

[Orangepeel]

72. For the record, I'm 39.

but I don't understand why you are taking so much offense to my post. I can't even tell if we disagree.

Stereotypically masculine characteristics such as strength and aggressiveness have historically been valued in society and in the workplace. Stereotypically feminine characteristics such as sensitivity have not. That's why it is insulting to men to call them something like a little girl or a pussy. A man who cries in the workplace is likely to be seen as overemotional and as weak -- stereotypically feminine characteristics.

Yes, this is sexism. It is because society is sexist that this happens. It isn't sexist to recognize it. :shrug:

[MedleyMisty]

57. OMG, the sexism here is disgusting

Like I always say, DU is a reality check that people who claim to be liberal and progessive can be pretty damn prejudiced.

[doc03]

58. I am not a real Hillary supporter but it seems

this crying thing is being blown way way out of proportion. First of all she didn't break down and cry. How many times have we seen Bush 41 actually break down and 43 has teared up on several occasions but no one in the MSM makes any big deal about that. Actually after this incident I look on Hillary more favorably, it's the first time I have ever seen her show any emotion at all. I think the MSM is going to make this the "Dean Scream of 2008". You can bet they will try and nail Obama or Edwards on some chicken shit stuff like this too. If you are Democrat the MSM has a big bulls-eye on your back.

[Generator]

59. Technically she didn't cry

for that you need a kleenex. Trust me, I'm the kleenex queen-yes I prefer the super doux with lotion. Okay so, all she did was get choked up. This is a barely moist ado about nothing.

I think when Obama tears up it will be the hardball moment du jour too and they will question if he's manly enough.

WOW sexism goes both ways, Hillary supporters. Men can't cry and women can't either for different reasons. BOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Of course they pay a price-it makes men nervous-when the men do it and when women do it. Crying is never acceptable really because society is all about making the other person comfortable-but Hillary is not about that now-she's about votes!-not that that is wrong.

But is it calculated? I don't know. But she's not paying a price for this because drum roll please-NO Kleenex. Minor choking up is acceptable. Boooooooooooohoooooooooooing for minutes is verboten.

[treestar]

60. Crying doesn't help

But showing anger should not be a double standard.

If a man cried, he'd get a lot of crap. But if a man were angry, he wouldn't. That's where the double standard is.

[undercutter2006]

61. bad bad stuff

first of all hillary didn't tear up at all, choked up for a second may be, are we watching the same video?

second tearing up is not as bad for a woman. speaking forcefully and with authority like she did against edwards in NH debate, that's when you are going to see a lot of sexism in responses

[undeterred]

63. I didn't really mean to refer to the Hillary incident in particular,

Just the subject that it raises. It seems to be such a touchy one. I see men get angry all the time in the workplace and its perfectly acceptable- but a woman is taking a risk. Sometimes, under the right circumstances, its ok. Same thing with getting emotional. There are definitely still some double standards at play. When you are on stage in the public eye its a thousand times worse.

[Marr]

68. Haha- wait a minute. Are you seriously suggesting that women

suffer more of a taboo against crying in public than men do? C'mon now. Do you seriously think a male candidate wouldn't be treated much more harshly for doing the same thing?

[Breeze54]

73. Most people , men & women have 'teared up' when stressed but your poll answers are goofy

I voted for women may pay a price for showing anger in public.

We are all human and we all have been brought to tears

at some point due to sadness, stress or pain. It's OK!!

It shows you care. It shows you have feelings and a soul!

Don't be alarmed when it happens to you! :hug:

[aikoaiko]

74. cryin? there's no cryin in politics.

a league of their own.