Thimerosal does not cause autism - study

[Lance_Boyle]

"Autism cases continued to increase in California after the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal was eliminated from most childhood vaccines, according to a new report. This suggests that exposure to thimerosal is not a primary cause of autism."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080107181551.htm


Sorry Mrs. Imus and associated pseudoscience woowoo brigades - time to find another boogeyman.

[rox63]

1. I don't know if it causes autism

But do you really want someone injecting mercury into your child?

Disclaimer: I say this as someone who's had bad reactions to products containing Thimerisol.

[Warpy]

7. Thimerosol is out of everything but injectable flu vaccine

and has been for years. You can get the inhaled vaccine.

The usual childhood diseases KILLED children. Be grateful for the vaccines.

[cureautismnow]

12. Not entirely true.

See chart at:

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

[Warpy]

52. That chart is useless to laymen

for instance, check out the MMR discussion.

The MMR has never contained thimerosal according to both the FDA and the CDC.

People who post charts like that with links like those are engaging in specious reasoning. They hope to overwhelm their victims with enough medicalese to end all discussion right then and there, they win, ha ha.

The problem is that too many of us on this board read fluent medicalese, so I'd strongly advise against that particular tactic.

Again, it's been removed from childhood vaccines in the US except for the injectable influenza vaccine. Also, absolutely no link has ever been found between vaccines of any type and the development of autism, which is more and more being found to be a congenital illness with a larger profile than simple mental difficulties. With the removal of mercury from childhood vaccines, there has not been a drop in newly diagnosed autism cases.

Give it up, kids. You're flogging a horse that has not only been dead a very long time, it's skeletonized and then ossified.

[cureautismnow]

68. The CDC has help for laymen.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

If you click on "Vaccine ingredients sorted by ingredient," you'll see that thimerosal is still in several vaccines besides thimerosal.

So, again, your original statement and "Again, it's been removed from childhood vaccines in the US except for the injectable influenza vaccine." is NOT ENTIRELY TRUE.

[TheMightyFavog]

60. Dr. House said it best...

House: Mmhmm. No fever, glands normal, missing her vaccination dates.

Young Mother: We're not vaccinating.



Young Mother:
Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.



House: Think they don't work?

Young Mother: I think some multinational pharmaceutical company wants
me to think they work. Pad their bottom line.

House: Mmmm. May I? noise with the baby]

Young Mother: Sure.

House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. All natural no
dyes. That's a good business: all-natural children's toys. Those toy
companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie
about how much they spend in research and development. The worst a toy
company can be accused of is making a really boring frog.



House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good
business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green or
fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect
the kid for 6 months, which is why these companies think they can
gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your
kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred
parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up
40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop REALLY fast.
Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

[rox63]

69. So I still can't get flu shots

I recall when I first started wearing contact lenses (many moons ago), the chemicals they gave me to use with them contained Thimerisol. My eyes swelled up so bad that I couldn't open them. As soon as I switched to contact lens chemicals with no Thimerisol, I was fine.

[Warpy]

70. Don't have them inject the flu vaccine into your eyes.

If you're really concerned, ask for the nasal vaccine.

[rox63]

72. Smartass

That's how we determined that I was allergic to Thimerisol. If it did that to my eyes, I don't want to imagine what it would do to my veins. :scared:

[Warpy]

73. First, it doesn't go into your veins

It's an IM shot that goes into muscle and is absorbed slowly through capillaries in the muscle tissue. We check to make sure we haven't stuck a vein before we push that plunger in.

In the second place, the dose you are getting is infinitesimal, smaller than the preservative that was in conctact with your sclera when you were wearing contacts.

However, if you're that paranoid about it, by all means ask for the nasal flu vaccine if you're in a high risk group. Getting the vaccine can save your life.

[Djinn]

85. this is what always confuses me

You don't want your kid to get autism fair enough - but there is zero proof that vaccinations of any kind cause autism and AMPLE proof as to the death and debilitation caused by polio, meningitis etc.

You think you prefer watching your kid die of meningitis than him/her being autistic?

Having spent my dark years in PR (and I apologise profusely and have been in repetant employment ever since) I'm as wary of pharma's as anyone but the no vaccination flakes are simply endangering their kids and everyone elses.

Do they refuse to own/travel in a car because car manufacturers have hidden dangerous faults? Do they spurn all chemicals? If so do they realise that "natural" doesn't mean "safe"

Thanks Warpy for an injection (pardon the pun) of factual information into a topic often swimming in flakey, unsupportable and outright ridiculous "evidence"

[CGowen]

14. "Mercury containing vaccines may help, not harm, according to two new studies"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZArebYZzdc

[DemGa]

2. Glad that's cleared up

Impairments in social relatedness and communication, repetitive behaviors, and stereotypic abnormal movement patterns characterize autism spectrum disorders (ASDs). It is clear that while genetic factors are important to the pathogenesis of ASDs, mercury exposure can induce immune, sensory, neurological, motor, and behavioral dysfunctions similar to traits defining or associated with ASDs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17454560&ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus

[underpants]

5. What, don't you believe a press release?

:shrug:

[varkam]

18. Not the Geier study!

Oh goodness me. I knew whatever I was going to be clicking on wasn't going to be pretty. The Geiers' methodology has been pretty thoroughly discredited, so I don't know what you think linking to their study proves.

[SidDithers]

3. K&R...

I'll take science over pseudoscience any day

Sid

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Yeah, but was it a rational study?

Because then it wasn't transrational enough.

[Bill McBlueState]

6. it won't be time to find another bogeyman

People don't believe in the thimerosal-autism link because of the evidence, they believe it because they read about it on the internet and it seems plausible. So if they learn there's actually no evidence, they won't stop believing.

[kath]

102. exactamundo - they'll continue to believe it, no matter what.

:banghead: :banghead:

[MrCoffee]

8. if no one else is gonna do it, i might as well

:popcorn:


got plenty to spare over here. get your hot corn!

[walldude]

9. Good, now they can keep going to figure out what is causing it..

[Lance_Boyle]

10. precisely.

It can be frustrating when progress is made by "ruling out" rather than "finding out," but it is progress nonetheless.

[Ian David]

11. And the cervical cancer vaccine does not make your vagina burst into flames, either. n/t

[Raster]

13. Oh, the possibilities... it just boggles the mind!

:spank::spank::spank:

[Warpy]

53. No, it just hurts at the injection site

and makes anxiety neurotics and needle weenies pitch a fit and sometimes even faint.

It still beats the hell out of dying of one of those types of cervical cancer 20 years down the road.

[rainy]

15. What about the Amish study where they do not get vaccines and have

almost no cases of autism?
Robert Kennedy Jr. was into these cases a while back and he is convinced that the vaccines cause autism.

[LeftishBrit]

19. Robert Kennedy Jr is an excellent lawyer and campaigner, but he is not a medical scientist.

As regards the Amish, there are a lot of things they don't get exposed to. They are probably exposed to far fewer pollutants of all sorts; may get fewer infections because they tend to stay in one place and not travel; and it's also possible that the genes associated with autism are less prevalent in this group than in some others.

Most countries have taken mercury out of vaccines quite some time ago (and some countries, such as the UK, don't vaccinate children routinely against flu); and yet autism rates don't seem to have been influenced.

[northzax]

25. he also has a built in bias

a reasonable one, that corporate greed enabled pollutants are the root of problems, because that has been his life's experience. So it's logical he would look for a similar cause.

[varkam]

20. The Amish also do not drive SUVs.

Driving SUVs is what causes autism. I'm convinced.

:sarcasm:

Seriously though, there are multiple explanations for why there might be a low incidence of autism in Amish populations other than the vaccine issue.

[northzax]

24. or wear polyblend fabrics

or have laptops, or use birth control, or eat fast food. Or cell phones! It's gotta be cell phones!

[nsd]

26. Also, there's a strong genetic component to autism.

Small groups that don't intermarry much with the larger population, such as the Amish, might have fewer of the genes that predispose one to autism. That might explain Amish exceptionalism.

[dansolo]

50. What about all other environmental factors?

The problem with using the Amish as a control group is that they aren't exposed to the multitude of other hazardous chemicals that typical people see every day. There is pollution, preservatives in food, cleaning chemicals, and who knows what else. Any one of those factors could contribute to the development of autism, which wouldn't be seen in the Amish.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

71. And probably don't get sonograms, either

[Djinn]

86. It's likely to be genetic

or at least have genetic connections. The Amish don't get a whole lot of new blood entering their communities, if there's little autism there now it's likely they'll remain relatively free of it.

Amish folk don't watch TV either - perhaps TV causes autism.

A link is NOT proof of a causative relationship.

[mzmolly]

16. Sorry, that's not what the study indicates.

Autism cases continued to increase in California after the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal was eliminated from most childhood vaccines, according to a new report.This suggests that exposure to thimerosal is not a primary cause of autism.

1. Mercury is still in some vaccines.
2. The study 'suggests' that mercury is not a 'primary' cause of autism.

Other studies 'suggest' that mercury plays a role in autism for some.

[varkam]

21. "Other studies 'suggest' that mercury plays a role in autism for some."

What studies? The Geier study? The Wakefield study? Show me.

Also, just going on logic, if mercury was the big boogeyman and it was removed from most childhood vaccines, then you could expect to see at least a decrease in Autism incidence - but we didn't see that, now did we?

[mzmolly]

30. I know you've been taught not to 'like' various studies. But, I doubt you're actually interested in

learning anything. If you ARE actually interested - read this book for starters.

http://www.evidenceofharm.com/

I also urge you to use them google skills of yours. You can find various studies if you actually seek them.

[varkam]

31. I've been taught not to 'like' various studies because I have been taught the scientific method.

And now you're linking to Kirby? You've got to be kidding me.

And no, I won't go a-googling since you are the one who made the claim - so I'm merely asking you to back it up with some studies.

[mzmolly]

34. Oh, you've been "taught?"

Are you suggesting that the scientists who have conducted studies you don't like haven't been "taught?"

[varkam]

36. No.

I'm suggesting their studies were crap, that doesn't mean that they haven't received an education. Getting an education gets you in the door in the world of research - it doesn't give you a pass.

[mzmolly]

38. I'm suggesting that you are not qualified to judge every study done that proves there is a legit

concern. Mercury is a neurotoxin, NUMEROUS studies for decades prove that. No amount of white-wash will change that fact.

[varkam]

39. First off, the studies prove nothing.

Second off, it is not only myself that has looked at the studies. If it were just me saying that these studies are crap, I'd have second thoughts - but it's not just me. For example, with respect to Wakefield, Lancet withdrew their support for his study (and, BTW, Wakefield may now be facing criminal charges).

Mercury is a toxin. Yeah? So? Water can be toxic in high enough doses, as well. Just because something can be toxic doesn't mean that it causes autism. All reliable data points to no connection. If you've got any reputable information to the contrary, I would love to see that.

[mzmolly]

41. Oh of course not. Just because we're injecting neurotoxins into our children

at hundreds of times the EPA established "safe" levels, that doesn't mean anyone child has ever been harmed. :sarcasm:

[varkam]

44. Stop shifting the goalposts. Stay on topic.

We were talking about autism, weren't we? I'm not arguing no child has even been harmed by a vaccine. I am arguing that vaccines are not responsible for autism.

[mzmolly]

48. So, according to you - mercury in vaccines has not triggered autism in one vulnerable child?

Gotcha!

[varkam]

55. "Gotcha!"?

According to the scientific consensus on the issue, I think that's a safe statement to make.

[mzmolly]

56. The consensus is "we don't really know"

but trust us cause it's probably ok.

[varkam]

59. Huh?

"We don't really know"? What? You do understand that there are a multitude of studies out there looking at vaccines, don't you? You do understand that those studies show no connection between vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders, right? Therefore, there is a consensus - just not one you like.

[mzmolly]

63. No, you don't understand that there are a multitude of studies that show different results,

depending. Studies that actually look at how mercury effects the brain are crystal clear. The CONSENSUS is that exposure to neurotoxins such as heavy metals can cause developmental disorders. What is being debated is whether or not heavy metals used in making vaccines are exempt for some magical reason.

[varkam]

64. As I've been asking since the beginning of this discussion: Show me.

Show me the studies that prove that vaccines and mercury in vaccines causes neurodevelopmental disorders and autism. Show me.

[mzmolly]

66. You show me where it's proven that mercury is no longer a neurotoxin if it's in a vaccine.

http://www.epa.gov/hg/health.htm

AS for studies, use that google skill again Varkam or check places that have assembled much of the research you claim to wish to examine. Safeminds has a handy research section for the those actually interested. Some of the studies they have assembled are listed below. You can read abstracts at their website or download various reports. Pubmed also has much info, as does the EPA etc..

http://www.safeminds.org/research/

The studies noted above only scratch the surface of what's available. I'm sure you've heard of some and have formed an opinion, which is why I urge you to do some digging yourself.

Now, show me the studies that prove mercury is safe.

[varkam]

74. Show me.

I looked at SafeMinds research site. It doesn't appear that any of that has been published anywhere. IOW, not very impressive. You still have not satisfied the burden of proof.

[mzmolly]

77. Much of the research certainly has been published both here and abroad.

Check again Varkam.

http://www.safeminds.org/research/current.html
http://www.safeminds.org/research/past.html

[varkam]

78. Sorry - I only clicked the link you provided.

Okay. Since I don't have a lot of time right now, would you pull out a couple that you find the most solid?

[mzmolly]

82. Nope.

As I've said, I feel that people should look at both sides of this issue for themselves. I'm not trying to prove anything, personally.

Peace

[varkam]

87. I asked you, since you are more familiar with the research than I am...

to pull out a couple studies that you feel are the strongest insofar as supporting your point of view. If you don't want to do that...well...okay.

[mzmolly]

96. My point of view is that mercury is a known neurotoxin.

That's not being debated.

[varkam]

107. As I've said before...

the dose makes the poison. Interestingly enough, in one of the studies posted on this thread, here are a couple interesting tidbits you might find enlightening:

Conclusions. Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD, and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions. Evidence does not support a change in the standard of practice with regard to administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in areas of the world where they are used.

...

The publication by Pichichero et al39 included data from 61 children: 40 recruited in Rochester, NY, who were exposed to thimerosal in vaccines compared with an unmatched control group of 21 children who were not exposed to ethylmercury in vaccinations recruited in Bethesda, MD. Although the Bethesda group is called a control, these children are not matched and the timing of blood mercury level testing is different. Children in the thimerosal-exposed group received up to 3 thimerosal preservative–containing vaccines (DTaP, hepatitis B, Haemophilus influenzae type b), and mercury levels were measured 3 to 28 days after vaccination. In the control group, samples were obtained at either the 2- or 6-month well-child visit. Urine and stool samples and maternal hair for total mercury content were studied for some infants, mostly in the thimerosal-exposed group. Results showed mercury concentrations below the limit of quantification in 12 of 33 infants in the study group and in 14 of 15 infants in the control group. Mean values were higher in younger patients, although exact means were not reported. The highest level reported was 20.6 nmol/L (parts per billion), which was less than the 29 nmol/L cited by the authors as thought to be safe in cord blood. Mercury also was found in stool specimens of infants who were exposed to thimerosal, suggesting excretion via the intestinal tract. The half-life of ethylmercury was calculated at 7 days (95% CI: 4–10 days), substantially less than the 20 to 70 days for methylmercury.

...

Although not a pharmacokinetic evaluation, Geier and Geier30,31 compared the FDA and EPA exposure limits with the thimerosal dose received in routine vaccination. They reported an "instantaneous excess" of mercury in vaccines on the basis of EPA and FDA standards of 3.2- to 32-fold. The data source and these calculations are understandable and reproducible. However, they are a misinterpretation of the EPA and FDA guidelines, which define their reference dose as "an estimate of daily exposure to the human population (including sensitive subpopulations) that is likely to be without a risk of adverse effects when experienced over a lifetime."19 No standards exist for an "instantaneous," single-day dosage of ethylmercury delivered by intramuscular injection.

[mzmolly]

113. Nope, not in the least bit enlightening.

I've seen every "study" you've posted and they have been debated HERE ad nauseam. I've responded to the same 'revelation' on many an occasion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=222&topic_id=17379&mesg_id=17453

Above I noted the following study in response to the 'half-life of ethylmercury' assertions.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16079072

I'm out, I'll check back in the am. :hi:

[varkam]

118. Hardly damning.

The "new data" doesn't seem it was published anywhere and even if there were methodological flaws in the study that the new data was critical of, you're still going to need some fairly extraordinary evidence given the trend of research in general has shown zero connection.

The other post strikes me as a non-sequitur, given that there is still no overall association between mercury and autism.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

119. First of all, it WAS published, and the study was funded in part by the the US deptartment of HHS.

See >>> Environmental Health Perspectives, Volume 113, Number 8, August 2005.

http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/7712/7712.html#3

And just because you buy the 'zero connection' propaganda, doesn't make it so.

Also, the NIAID quoted the research above when they proclaimed:

"There is not a consensus as to whether inorganic mercury in brain causes damage or to what extent compared to organic mercury."

http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/thimerosal.htm

...

Results from these studies indicated higher inorganic Hg concentrations in the brain 6 months after MeHg exposure had ended, whereas organic Hg had cleared from the brain. The estimated half-life of organic Hg in the brain of these adult monkeys was consistent across various brain regions at approximately 37 days (similar to the brain half-life in the present infant monkeys). The estimated half-life of inorganic Hg in the brain in the same adult cohort varied greatly across some regions of the brain, from 227 days to 540 days. In other regions, the concentrations of inorganic Hg remained the same (thalamus) or doubled (pituitary) 6 months after exposure to MeHg had ended (Vahter et al. 1994, 1995). Stereologic and autometallographic studies on the brains of these adult monkeys indicated that the persistence of inorganic Hg in the brain was associated with a significant increase in the number of microglia in the brain, whereas the number of astrocytes declined. Notably, these effects were observed 6 months after exposure to MeHg ended, when inorganic Hg concentrations were at their highest levels, or in animals solely exposed to inorganic Hg (Charleston et al. 1994, 1995, 1996). The effects in the adult macaques were associated with brain inorganic Hg levels approximately five times higher than those observed in the present group of infant macaques. The longer-term effects (> 6 months) of inorganic Hg in the brain have not been examined. In addition, whether similar effects are observed at lower levels in the developing brain is not known. It is important to note that “an active neuroinflammatory process” has been demonstrated in brains of autistic patients, including a marked activation of microglia (Vargas et al. 2005).

The American Academy of Pediatrics and the U.S. Public Health Service (1999) published a joint statement that urged “all government agencies to work rapidly toward reducing children’s exposure to mercury from all sources.” The statement recommended that thimerosal be removed from vaccines as soon as possible as part of this overall process. Between 1999 and 2001, vaccines currently recommended for children ≤ 6 years of age were made available in thimerosal-free formulations in the United States (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention 2001). Exposures to thimerosal through pediatric vaccines, however, still occur in other countries where multiple-dose vials are used to maintain childhood immunization programs and the control of preventable disease (Knezevic et al. 2004).

Recent publications have proposed a direct link between the use of thimerosal-containing vaccines and the significant rise in the number of children being diagnosed with autism, a serious and prevalent developmental disorder (for review, see IOM 2001). Results from an initial IOM review of the safety of vaccines found that there was not sufficient evidence to render an opinion on the relationship between ethylmercury exposure and developmental disorders in children (IOM 2001). The IOM review did, however, note the possibility of such a relationship and recommended further studies be conducted. A recently published second review (IOM 2004) appears to have abandoned the earlier recommendation as well as backed away from the American Academy of Pediatrics goal. This approach is difficult to understand, given our current limited knowledge of the toxicokinetics and developmental neurotoxicity of thimerosal, a compound that has been (and will continue to be) injected in millions of newborns and infants.

I prefer to look at hard science regarding how the brain might be impacted by XYZ vs. scanning for political he said she saids involving questionable data.

I'm out for now.

[Djinn]

91. nothing to do with "magic"

the fact that you make that absurd statement suggests to me your understanding of the science involved is limited to say the least

[mzmolly]

97. Ah, yes the tired, lazy

"but, you don't understand the science" - B.S.

[Djinn]

90. so what

Do you know what a neurotoxin is? Because thousands of your fellow Americans are ingesting it daily (alcohol).

Billions of people worldwide are producing it in their very own bodies (glutamate)

This is where a little knowledge is a problem. Just because something is a neurotoxin doesn't mean it has no beneficial uses. Just because something is a neurotoxin doesn't mean it's damaging you.

It's utterly irrelevant that mercury is a toxin that effects the nervous system.

Any idea what meningitis does to the body?

[mzmolly]

98. Any idea what mercury laden fish does to the brain?

Speaking of glutamate: Glutamate is a neurotoxin that is implicated in stroke, head trauma and several neurodegenerative diseases.

What's your point, that we should add more MSG to vaccines?

[Djinn]

89. can you link to a credible study

that suggests there is a CAUSATIVE link between vaccination (any kind) and autism spectrum disorders?

As noted before MANY countries do not vaccinate for the flu (in Austraila only high risk folk get it) and we have very high levels of ASD.

Chances are the incidences of ASD are NOT increasing. They are simply being diagnosed more often with increasing awareness. Schizophrenia wasn't diagnosed much in the 19th century but was increasingly diagnosed in the latter half of the 20th century. There is no evidence however to suggest the actual numbers of people with the disorder is increasing.

We just tend not to throw people into Bedlam anymore and we don't tell mothers they're being "hysterical" when they're worried about a child's emotional development.

[mzmolly]

103. When you show me the 'credible' studies that indicate that it's safe to inject mercury into infants,

I'll get right on that. You're capable of looking for studies yourself I presume. Start with pubmed and search by "mercury." Try not to insert "political" words into your search, and you'll likely find less biased results.

[earth mom]

17. This proves absolutely nothing.

:eyes:

Take your woowoo attitude and....

[northzax]

22. you can't convince them

don't worry. Jenny McCarthy is much more convincing than double blind science or real, longitudinal studies.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. Do you have any idea how incredibly toxic mercury is?

The EPA says that mercury is the most toxic non-radioactive element in the Periodic Table.

However, the dentists say that it's non-toxic in your mouth. Before they put it in your mouth, they have to use all these special protective protocols because of its toxicity. After they take it out of your mouth, they also have to use special protective protocols for disposal, and so forth.

The dentists say it magically becomes non-toxic and non-reactive in your mouth in spite of the fact that it is volatile and your mouth is basically a wet battery.

I do not believe it's non-toxic in any state--gas, liquid, or compounded with other materials.

I don't think mercury has ANY place in modern medicine, fillings, preservatives in vaccines or anywhere else.

[varkam]

27. The dose makes the poison.

Vitamin C is toxic in high enough doses.

[mzmolly]

32. What dose makes mercury poisonous?

http://909shot.com/calc.htm

Some children, especially those ill do not rid their bodies of mercury efficiently, thus part of the problem. For someone who has spent so much time defending injecting infants with neurotoxins, you don't know much about it Varkam.

[varkam]

33. Good god. And now you're linking to NVIC.

It just never stops with you, does it? I'd explain to you how study after study has failed to find any connection between autism and mercury - but I've already explained that. You've just decided not to listen.

[mzmolly]

35. Oh my, you've apparently been "taught" to shoot the messenger as well?

I'd be interested in YOUR calculations on how much mercury is safe Varkam. The NVIC is a respected organization, even if you have been "taught" not to like them. The methods they use in the calculator I provided are based upon government standards.

[varkam]

37. As NVIC is a messenger worth shooting.

They are so far off to one side on the vaccine issue, and then have the audacity to call themselves the "National Vaccine Information Center". It really makes me laugh.

I'm not a chemist or a neurobiologist, and so I do not have personal calculations as to how much mercury is safe. My guess is, though, neither do you.

[mzmolly]

40. Actually they are not. The organization was founded by a parent who had her child vaccinated.

Actually I do know the amount of mercury considered 'safe' for most. I've read the EPA studies.

In 1998 the FDA determined by that children who received the full number of recommended vaccines were exposed to levels of mercury that were 30 to 50 times acceptable levels established by the EPA

OOPS!

[varkam]

42. Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In 1998 the FDA determined by that children who received the full number of recommended vaccines were exposed to levels of mercury that were 30 to 50 times acceptable levels established by the EPA

Somehow, given the source, I highly suspect that is cherrypicked or otherwise innaccurate. But nonetheless, I will grant you the benefit of the doubt. You still have to show me the data that points to a connection between vaccines and autism.

[mzmolly]

47. No, you have to show me how a known neurotoxin spares the brains of infant children.

You won't believe any study that negates the mass money backed brain-washing because the messenger is always a casualty of trying to prove what is scientific truth vs. what entrenched money interests wish to proclaim.

[varkam]

58. Ah. I see.

It's all a conspiracy, is it? I've been "brainwashed" have I? I thought you had a distaste for shooting the messenger - apparently, only when that messenger says things you want to believe.

See, this is why you will never be deterred of the righteousness of your cause. You have already accepted the hypothesis that vaccines (more specifically, mercury in vaccines) causes autism. Once that hypothesis is accepted, you can then interpret anything to support that conclusion. The multitude of studies that show zero connection? Conspiracy. The few studies with questionable methodology and even more questionable loyalites (Wakefield was, at the time of his study, also working for a lawyer who was suing pharmaceutical companies on behalf of parents re: vaccines)? They show the truth...right?

There was another study just released last year...a rather large one if memory serves. This study found absolutely zero connection between vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders. What made this study unique was that the study authors, as a sop to the anti-vaxx crowd, invited Sallie Bernard of Safe Minds to help design the methodology of the study (and to have her name on the paper). Once it became clear that the study was going to turn out negative, she demanded her name be withdrawn from being associated with the paper and immediately began to criticise it. Ostensibly, she was just tricked by the mean scientists in white coats into trying to lend credibility to their bought-and-paid-for research...right? :rofl:

No, you have to show me how a known neurotoxin spares the brains of infant children.

Perhaps you misunderstand this idea of the burden of proof. The burden is not on me to prove that vaccines "spare the brains of infant children" because you have not proved anything to begin with (neither have your Kirby's, or your Geier's, or your Wakefield's). The burden of proof is still on your doorstep, and with each new study that comes out on the subject, attempts to make the conclusion work are looking more and more hysterical.

There's another study, to be released this year, that addresses the issue of vaccines and autism - a rather large one IIRC. I'm not a gambling man, but...want to take bets on what the conclusions are going to be?

[mzmolly]

62. No you misunderstand the 'burden of proof' and who that falls upon.

As a consumer, the burden of proof lies with those trying to SELL me a product. It is up to THEM to prove that said product is safe. Call me crazy for questioning the notion that a known neurotoxin is suddenly 'safe' because it's in a vaccine.

As for the pending studies, I'm up on the latest white wash, thanks. As to the 'conclusions' of the large study you're awaiting, why don't you share who's funding the study, and then I bet we can both guess what the conclusion will be!? :think:

[varkam]

65. Well, that information is out there.

Say, in the form of clinical trials, but that is of course not good enough for you because it's all been bought-and-paid-for, right? Do you realize how silly this is sounding?

[mzmolly]

67. No it's not Varkam.

There are no double blind studies comparing vaccinated children to non-vaccinated children, unless we use the Amish epidemiological data which you guys love to hate.

G'night. :hi:

[varkam]

75. Phase I and Phase II FDA Trials...

...are used to determine the safety of a medicine, and all medicines have to go through them before they reach the market. Perhaps you could use your well-honed Googling skills to dig them up.

Here's a link to an actual study published in a peer-reviewed journal that conducted a meta-analysis of the available data.

Here's another that was included in the meta-analysis. Note how they actually have data both pre and post-thimerosal, and how incidences of autism actually appear to rise after thimerosal is removed from vaccines.

[mzmolly]

76. I've said there are contradicting studies. However, there are still no comparisons

between those vaccinated vs. those not. For example, when Gardasil trials were done, they used the aluminum adjuvant as a placebo. The adjuvant was perhaps the most controversial additive.

[varkam]

79. It would not be ethical...

...to compose a trial where you randomly assign one group to get vaccines and one group to not get vaccinated. There's not an IRB in the world that would approve such a design.

Also, what about those studies that I posted w/ respect to thimerosal in vaccines?

[mzmolly]

81. That's not what I suggest. There are plenty of children who are not vaccinated

who could be used for comparative purposes.

[varkam]

88. The only problem I can see with that...

is that there might be something special about non-vaccinated children that could skew the results (eg selection bias).

Again, how about those studies I posted?

[mzmolly]

99. You don't suggest that

A) I haven't seen the studies you posted on other occasions, and B) that an earth shattering revelation exists among them that settles the debate, do you?

[varkam]

106. No. I'm asking for your thoughts on the studies I posted.

Seems like a rather straightforward request, does it not?

[mzmolly]

120. I've given you my thoughts.

Night :hi:

[tigereye]

95. thanks Varkam, nice to see some actually meta-analyses being cited!

:thumbsup:

[varkam]

108. I do what I can.

:hi:

[Djinn]

92. glutamate

You seem to use the term like some big scary word (as do many highly spurious anti-vaccination sources) to bludgeon people with, which works. UNLESS those people know what that term actually means. :eyes:

[mzmolly]

100. glutamate

I haven't used the word in this debate, until you mentioned it. However, if you're talking about the word "neuro-toxin" it essentially means nerve poison, feel free to suggest that no one has actually been poisoned by the nerve poisons in vaccines, and or that the notion isn't "big" and/or "scary."

[varkam]

109. I believe the poster is referring to the term "neurotoxin" eom

[uppityperson]

104. Seems you are the one who used that word in post 90. Odd.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2630518#2647557

[KittyWampus]

43. NVIC is a group of parents who whole-heartedly ACCEPTED vaccines until their healthy child

became disabled immediately after a vaccine.

It isn't a bunch of woos (can't believe DU allows that insult to be slung) who blindly object vaccines.

You claim to uphold the scientific method and yet reject evidence that some children are grievously harmed by vaccines.

[TZ]

49. And IMMEDIATELY after means 3-5 years?

Because thats what most of these cases are. Children rarely show autistic traits at the time of infant vaccinations. Its years down the road. What happens is that children suffer SIDE EFFECTS and these people remember it incorrectly years later when they have a diagnosis of autism.
BTB, somebody who doesn't even know the difference between a vaccine, drug, and chemical, and what vaccines ACTUALLY exist has little credibility in this debate. Any post you write about science is WRONG.
Some children and some people suffer side effects (and some serious) but thats like claiming that someone got cancer because once they had a bad bugbite!
BTW, those that suffer severe side effects..pretty rare. I have had HepA, HepB, small pox (twice), and ALL my childhood vaccines.
And not so much as a sneeze. BTW, children that have a full spectrum of vaccines, are usually healthier children and adults because it helps get the immune system working. Overprotected children tend to get allergies and asthma and other chronic diseases because their immune systems weren't allowed to function NATURALLY, which is what a vaccine does.

[cureautismnow]

51. Death is a serious side effect.

Check out: http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm

The U.S. Government has shelled out nearly 1 trillion dollars for vaccine-related injuries/deaths in the last 19 years. Notice, too, that an Autism-related case has FINALLY been adjudicated for the plaintiffs in FY2008. Think the Big Pharma-sponsored msm will acknowledge this? Lol...

"Children rarely show autistic traits at the time of infant vaccinations. Its years down the road. What happens is that children suffer SIDE EFFECTS and these people remember it incorrectly years later when they have a diagnosis of autism."

Uh, no, that's not what happens. At least 22 vaccinations can be given before 18 months old. A child can be routinely diagnosed with autism between 2 and 3 years old. Parents can easily recognize the clues months before this, i.e., no eye contact, no pretend play, perseverating, little to no speech, etc. This is not "years down the road."

"BTW, children that have a full spectrum of vaccines, are usually healthier children and adults because it helps get the immune system working."

Really? That's news to parents of autistic kids with a full spectrum of vaccines. I guess chronic bowel problems are a sign of good health in your bizarro world.

"Overprotected children tend to get allergies and asthma and other chronic diseases because their immune systems weren't allowed to function NATURALLY, which is what a vaccine does."

What utter nonsense. Fully-vaccinated autistic kids get allergies and asthma just as much, if not more, as "overprotected children."

Any post you write about autism is obviously WRONG.

Check back when you actually interact with an autistic child 24/7/365. Or, better still, go back to the lab, and actually work on vaccines that will harm NO children.

[Djinn]

93. what evidence

the point being there IS NONE

[varkam]

112. Show me.

Show me the evidence that vaccines cause autism. Show it to me.

[northzax]

28. and it was, therefore, a perfectly reasonable hypothesis

that Thimerasol, a mercury compound, might have a relationship with developmental disorders. However, every peer reviewed study examining this relationship has shown no causal link between the two. So it's time to move on and spend our resources elsewhere. This is how public health works. You see a problem, you come up with an idea from trends and you study it more rigorously until you find out if it is a real trend or a chimera. It makes perfect sense that Thimerasol is linked to ASDs, only problem is, data doesn't support the idea. So let's find what I'd supported, rather than keep chasing this rabbit into Wonderland.

[varkam]

29. Of course, the problem is...

...that many anti-vaxxers have already accepted the hypothesis that thimerosol causes autism as scientific fact. Once a hypothesis is accepted, anything can be interpreted to support it. Even studies that come out negative, somehow, still support their conclusions via conspiracy theory nuttery.

[northzax]

45. yes, but you are also being unfair in a way

there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there, true. But the average parent or loved one of a child with ASD just wants to know why. And Thimerasol is a great answer for them, it puts all the responsibilty on large, faceless, easy to hate companies and the government, and says the parents did evertything right. (please note that I have no desire to blame parents, I have no idea what the causes of ASD may be, some combination of genetics an environment, I suspect, but when you have a sick child, it is natural to want to blame someone, and vaccines allow just enough self blame to be easy to accept. It's human nature. And look at the past half century, kids get cancer, some company is at fault, kid gets brain damage, it's the OB's fault, etc. We don't live in a culture where sometimes bad shit just happens, so we look for someone, something to blame. I can only imagine this urge in a parent who sees their child suffer in anyway.

[varkam]

61. I agree that there can be a strong motivation.

And perhaps I am being a bit unfair, though a strong motivation to believe something doesn't make it any more true than otherwise.

[tigereye]

116. this covers both sides of the argument

nice analysis, Zax

:thumbsup:

[Pavulon]

54. Its LD-50 is less than say

botulinum toxin and digitalis. Both used in medicinal form.

This topic attracts wack jobs who refuse to immunize their kids and blame the gummint' when they are forced to participate in public health.

[mzmolly]

57. And, wack jobs who defend injecting neurotoxins into infants as long as a drug company

is making a buck.

[Pavulon]

80. Just keep you mumps infected

spawn away from the rest of the healthy population. Then it is between you and the DSS.

Really, this is a public health issue. Wack jobs have hijacked it.

The doctor in the UK who started this has been discredited and could face criminal charges.

MMR is not a big money operation.

[mzmolly]

84. Mumps was rather common not so long ago. I know several people who've had it.

Children usually recover from mumps in about 10 to 12 days. It takes about 1 week for the swelling to disappear in each parotid gland, but both glands don't usually swell at the same time.

And contrary to popular belief, vaccines are a profit industry.

[LeftishBrit]

115. Countries with universal health care would have a financial motivation NOT to spend money on

vaccinations. Nonetheless, Europaean countries provide free vaccinations to their citizens.

Mercury is no longer in the vaccinations commonly given to children; and it never was in the MMR vaccine in Britain.

I had mumps as a child and recovered without problems; but I've known others who had serious complications, including meningitis in one case. Measles can be fatal, and is a common cause of death in children in developing countries. Rubella in early pregnancy often causes birth defects in the babies. Indeed maternal rubella is definitely known to sometimes cause autism; in contrast to the total lack of proof with regard to the MMR vaccine.

[mzmolly]

117. Mercury is not the issue with the MMR vaccine.

I had mumps as a child and recovered without problems; but I've known others who had serious complications, including meningitis in one case.

Vaccination can also result in serious complications.

Measles can be fatal, and is a common cause of death in children in developing countries.

Vaccination can be fatal as well. And, many who have been vaccinated 'against' measles are still vulnerable to measles infection. My husband was vaccinated and had contracted measles in spite of that.

Rubella in early pregnancy often causes birth defects in the babies.

As can the MMR jab during pregnancy (which was recommended to me by medical professionals when my daughter was in my womb.)

Indeed maternal rubella is definitely known to sometimes cause autism; in contrast to the total lack of proof with regard to the MMR vaccine.

Indeed, the rubella virus attenuated or not is a possible mechanism for autism in vulnerable children - regardless of whether or not YOU feel there is 'proof.'

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/research/app/index.html

Immune function Abnormal immune system function, including autoimmunity in which the body attacks its own nervous tissue, has also been implicated in the development and progression of the disorder. Researchers are determining the kind and number of antibodies found in the blood serum of patients and look for markers of inflammation – the products of an immune response – in plasma. Similarly, they assess the level of brain chemicals, hormones, viruses and various cell types present in the child’s blood.

Vaccines 'work' by stimulating the immune system. Draw your own conclusion on this.

Here is an article from this time last year:

http://www.upi.com/Consumer_Health_Daily/Reports/2007/01/09/the_age_of_autism_a_new_environment/9016/

Another reason: An expert panel requested by Congress and convened by NIH recently raised disturbing questions about one of those "major epidemiological studies" that found no link between thimerosal and autism.

"I think there's more work to be done," chairwoman Irva Hertz-Picciotto, a professor in the Department of Public Health at the University of California-Davis School of Medicine, told me last month.

"It's an 'open question' whether anything about vaccines -- timing, dose, preservative -- is related to the rise in diagnoses," she said.

...

I'm going to defer to those actually impartial and qualified on that 'proof' thing, thanks. The question remains open.

[Djinn]

94. and wack jobs

who clearly have little understanding of the term who like to screech "NEUROTOXINS INTO CHILDREN" like it's some kind of argument winning talisman

[mzmolly]

101. and wack jobs

who clearly have little understanding of the term 'NEUROTOXIN' period and as such like to belittle legitimate scientific concerns about injecting mercury into infants.

[varkam]

111. I like that refrain you've got - "injecting mercury into infants"

It's good and scary. Keep it up!

[mzmolly]

114. That's what we do Varkam,

we inject mercury into infants. Sorry if saying it in blunt terms scares you.

G-night.

[yellowcanine]

83. Actually you mean the LD 50 is "greater than". With LD 50 smaller is MORE toxic.

LD 50 is the dose which kills half the population in question so the smaller the LD 50 the more toxic. Actually LD 50s are not really relevant here anyway because we are not talking about acute toxicity which is what LD 50 measures. We are talking about chronic effects.

[cureautismnow]

46. California is one of only 16 states to have autism-related insurance laws.

"Based on the report INSURANCE COVERAGE FOR AUTISM by Janet L. Kaminski, Associate Legislative Attorney in CT, "Sixteen other states (besides CT) have insurance laws relating to autism coverage (California, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Montana, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Tennessee, and Virginia). Of these, 10 require coverage for autism through their laws mandating coverage for mental illness (California, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, New Jersey, and Virginia)."

http://www.insurancehelpforautism.com/

More families moving to California for insurance-mandated care could explain the increase in autism-related cases. The "experts" recommend 40 ABA hours/week/child. At $65 per hour, that's $135K+ per year! That's a helluva an incentive to move to Calif. and naturally increase the number of autistic kids in the state.

Another variable not discussed in the article is the fact that children were vaccinated with thimerosal-laden shots with expiration dates far beyond 2001.

IMO, it's much too soon to draw this conclusion and California is certainly not the model state to conduct such a study.

[Canuckistanian]

105. How many studies will it take?

I've heard this over and over.

How can it be "common knowledge" that Thimerosal causes autism when the WHO, the FDA and the Institute of Medicine say no?

And cases of autism continue to rise, even after Thimerosal has been taken OUT of MOST vaccines.

[varkam]

110. It is never enough.

The common refrain of the so-called "mercury militia" is to keep chanting for more research despite how much research is currently available.