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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 09:51 AM
Original message
Beg pardon?
The possibility that President George W. Bush will pardon I. Liar Libby has become a topic of conversation, from the cable talk shows to internet discussion sites, as the nation waits for the jury to return its verdict. Libby’s supporters are spreading the rumor that Bush will grant the pardon, as part of their perception management campaign. Of course, these are the same folks who insist that Plame was not covert, and a variety of other lies. We have no more reason to believe anything they say, than we have reason to believe VP Cheney when he tells us that things are going well in Iraq.

At this point, we can only speculate on the likelihood of a pardon after Libby is convicted. There are a number of reasons that support the idea that Bush will save Scooter; there are also a number of reasons to think that Bush will not interfere with the outcome of the case. Let’s take a few minutes to look at both possibilities.

First, it is important to look at recent history, which provides some interesting examples for our consideration. The first example is the Watergate scandal. We know that President Ford granted Richard Nixon a pardon, saving the ex-president from the legal consequences for his role in the series of crimes that brought down his administration.

Equally important, though often overlooked in the current discussions, is how Nixon knew his aides were suggesting that those who were either facing or experiencing incarceration would be pardoned. "The Presidential Transcripts" (Washington Post; Dell Books; 1974) contains fascinating discussions between Nixon and his staff, where they consider pardons in terms of rewarding loyalty vs protecting Nixon. In the end, those who believed they would be pardoned ended up behind bars.

The second example comes from the Iran-Contra scandals. Unlike the first example, in this case, President Bush the Elder granted pardons to a number of his associates, and derailed the justice system’s efforts to provide consequences for those who had participated in serious crimes. Many progressive democrats point to this example to support their belief that Bush2 will pardon Scooter.

A third example, which is important in ways that differ from the first two, Bill Clinton pardoned Marc Rich. This took place in the final days of the Clinton administration. It was a slimy episode, and it is no coincidence that Scooter Libby was Rich’s attorney.

All three of these examples are worth considering as we explore some of the possibilities in the Libby case. Now let’s look first at reasons Bush might pardon Libby, and then at some reasons he might not.

Reasons for a pardon:

(1) Bush may believe that a pardon would help to protect his administration. Having Libby convicted of these serious charges is damaging to the Bush administration, and Bush may feel he can lessen the damage with a pardon.

(2) Dick Cheney wants Scooter pardoned, and the vice president is running the show.

(3) The Libby Support Group, which has been lobbying for a pardon, pulls the puppet strings, politically and financially.

(4) Bush values "loyalty." And he will be moved to tears – much like Teddy Wells – by Scooter’s dog-like loyalty to Dick Cheney.

(5) Bush has no problem with lying. We know he has told more lies than Carter has pills. Included among these lies was his promise to "take the appropriate action" if anyone in his administration were caught in the Plame investigation. A pardon is this liar’s idea of the appropriate action.

(6) Power. President Bush is correctly viewed as a man who is carried away with the sense of power that the presidency has provided for him. He will enjoy proving that he, rather than the judicial system, has the "ultimate power."

(7) The weasel factor. Like the two presidents before him, he will wait until the last days of his administration, and use them as cover for a pardon.

Now, let’s look at some of the reasons President Bush might not grant Scooter Libby a pardon:

(1) Timing. If Bush wanted to avoid the damage to his presidency, he would have pardoned Libby in October, 2005.

(2) Timing, part two. The Libby Support Group had lobbied Bush for a holiday pardon in 2006. That would have saved the administration from the damage the trial has done. But the pardon didn’t happen.

(3) The Plame scandal created a serious conflict between the Office of the President, and the Office of the Vice President. This isn’t something that Teddy Wells made up for his opening statement to the jury – it is something that Joseph Wilson details in his book (see page 444).

(4) Bush is intent upon being different than his father. This is something that has been clear in many of the decisions that he has made throughout his presidency. He has noted that he looks to a "different Father" for help in his decision-making. And Bush clearly views life in the punitive sense of the "Father" from the Old Testament, rather than one who pardons sins.

(5) Bush really enjoys watching others suffer. For but one example, on the day that Scott McClellan "retired," when he and Bush walked out on the lawn to talk to reporters, Bush was trying not to grin. He could not stop from showing his pleasure in his friend’s pain when Scott’s voice cracked, and he almost cried in front of the cameras.

(6) Bush would like to blame others for his mistakes. He lacks the capacity to sincerely admit that he has done anything wrong in his life. Scooter’s conviction and incarceration will allow Bush to make clear that "the buck stops in the OVP."

(7) On page 232 of Isikoff & Corn’s book "Hubris," they quote an angry president: " ‘Oh, yeah, just like the WMD we found,’ Bush snapped…" He wants to distance himself from the yellow cake lies; this is evidenced by Ari Fleischer’s telling reporters that the infamous 16 words didn’t meet the standard for being included in a presidential speech. Pardoning Scooter would be viewed as embracing the yellow cake lies.

(8) Mr. Fitzgerald will offer a deal to Libby, through Teddy Wells, after the jury returns its verdict, but before sentencing. The president would not attempt to interfere at that point. There are numerous people around Libby who are encouraging him to stop protecting Cheney. It’s one thing for Scooter to be a tough guy when incarceration is a possibility, in the distant future; it’s entirely different when it stares him in the face, and he considers the toll it imposes on his family.

(9) Bush does not wish to have a confrontation with Congress on the Plame scandal. On November 8, 2005, the Democratic Leadership from the Senate sent Bush a letter requesting that he not grant a pardon to Libby or anyone else who might be charged in the scandal. Bush does not have the same advantages in the House and Senate that he had in 2005. A Congressional investigation would uncover significant evidence that would tarnish VP Cheney, and possibly Bush himself. That evidence includes documents that Mr. Fitzgerald has from the OVP, which have Cheney’s notes on them – these were, in large part, why Cheney did not want to take the witness stand.

(10) President Bush tends to think in rigid terms. He views the world in black and white. He has already complimented Mr. Fitzgerald, and is not likely to take a step that indicates those in his administration are above the law.

At this point, an interesting case can be made to support people’s belief that Bush will, or will not, grant Convict Libby a presidential pardon. I do not think that Bush will pardon Libby. However, nothing surprises me these days.
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Bet the mortgage on a pardon
That's why there was virtually no defense presented.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. You might be right.
However, for fun, try to think of a defense that Team Libby could have presented. The "memory expert" had been humiliated and exposed by Mr. Fitzgerald. What defense was left for them to put on?
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
74. Okay, kingofalldems, I don't want your mortgage
Let's say a nominal donation to DU, shall we?

I don't believe there will be a pardon. If there's a conviction, (and please, God, let there be,) Scooter will lose his ability to plead the Fifth with a pardon, and you know his presence will be cordially requested at the grand jury sooner than later.

There was virtually no defense presented because (in my opinion,) they knew that anyone they put up for cross-examination by Patrick Fitzgerald was going to get not only the Ginsu-like questioning that felled Elizabeth Loftus, the defense could not take the risk that someone like Shooter would explode in anger on the stand, or conceivably take the Fifth.

IMHO, YMMV,
Julie
still president for life of the PFEB
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #74
85. You're on
20 bucks to DU if he isn't pardoned by Jan. 1,2008.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
99. If convicted
Libby will run out the rest of the Bush's term in the appeals process. Bush will pardon him in his last week in office. Bush has no qualms about looking bad now, he'll have less than none when he's heading for history's dust bin.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. I Don't Think Libbert Will Be Pardoned
and my reason relates to #3 on the non-pardon list. I think Rove hates Libby. Rove was furious when he found out that at the instigation of the OVP he may have committed a crime. Thus they put Rove, and by extension, *, in the hot seat. Rove is a man who never forgets and always pays back, from the smallest infraction to the largest. I think he will strongly advise against a pardon. And he still has the full confidence of *, whereas Cheney's influence is fading.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Libby's lying
to even those who thought they were his friend caught up to him when it came to Judith Miller. She had asked if the still classified parts of inteligence estimates supported the WMD claims, and Scooter said yes, they did. Miller clearly did not appreciate it when she found out that Scooter had lied to her.

In Wilson's book, he told about Rove being furious when he found out that he may have violated the law. He blamed Libby & Cheney for the problems that they caused the administration. The Rove factor may be one of the cards that Mr. Fitzgerald holds when it comes to Cheney's role. If that is true, then it might significantly lower the chances of a presidential pardon.

More, Cheney had urged Bush to move in the direction of an Imperial Executive. Time has shown that the Supreme Court has not agreed with Cheney on some important issues regarding this. Bush is aware of this.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. It seems that Libby has been thrown under the bus by the WH
None of these criminals cares about the lives of their cohorts. Bush positively enjoys seeing other people suffer, as you point out.

The only possible reason for them to want to pardon Libby is to keep him from revealing more damaging information, and I don't think that Cheney, Bush, Rove, or any of the rest of them really fear that they will ever get in trouble with the law. Rove was scared for a few weeks but when he wasn't indicted it tended to reinforce these narcissists that they are above the law.

If Scooter is convicted they will let him go to jail for a relatively brief sentence. That's my prediction.

I hope that somehow, some day these criminals are brought to justice.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. It could be
that Libby will "go to jail for a relatively brief sentence." It would, however, be out of character for Judge Walton to hand down a brief sentence. Very out of character. And I am not aware of any action he has taken to date on this case that qualifies as even mildly out of character.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
54. He's Also Pretty Pissed Off At Libby And The Defense Team
For misleading him about Libby testifying and other bullshit they tried to pull. I don't expect him to be lenient.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #12
100. That is good news! Now he has to get convicted first.
I hope that jury is honest.
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. 5th Rec - get thee to the Greatest Page!
I'm really on the fence about this, myself. I agree with your assessment of the situation...which is why I'm on the fence! There are too many factors on each side of the equation to know which way it's going to go.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. I think it is
possible to make a strong case either way. Hence, though I disagree with those who say Bush is certain to pardon Scooter, I recognize it is a possibility. More important, however, is that we recognize that we are not left powerless if he actually did pardon Scooter. Bush would expose himself and several others -- including Condi and Karl -- outside of the OVP to an uncomfortable congressional investigation. He doesn't want that.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
42. That is why I don't think Bush will pardon Libby.
They are damned no matter what they do. Excellent analysis, H2O man.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:14 AM
Original message
A couple of other (variants?) ...
(a1) Junior hates backing off. He swaggered about 'leaks' and making anyone in HIS casa blanc face justice.
(a2) A pardon, depending on how comprehensive, removes Fifth Amendment objections for Libby to be called as a witness, either in other litigation or before Congress.

It's a crap shoot. :shrug:

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. A2
Good one!
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Wishful thinking....when faced with jail time, Scooter becomes great pals with Fitz.
Singing like a canary about Cheney & company.

Reality??? Appeals keep Scooter out of jail until bush* steps down, then he's pardoned?

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. One thing to
keep in mind is that Scooter doesn't have to sing like a canary. There's really only two conversations that he needs to tell the truth about. The first is from AF2, when Cheney instructed him how to deal with select reporters. The second is from when, despite being told not to discuss the case with others, Libby told Dick that he had admitted to investigators that he first learned about Plame from Cheney. Those are the two specific incidents where Cheney is in potential jeopardy.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
11. What about just plain old resentment towards Cheney?
Is the pretzledent pissed off enough to let the conviction stand and not pardon the dicks good pal? Cheney's been running the show since day 1 and I'm thinking Jr. has built up a lot of resentment overtime towards towards this pig. Depsite the fact that he plays an idiot on T.V. I don't think bush is stuipd.
He may finally be tired of just pretending to be the leader of the country and decide to take control back by taking Cheney down. And I'll bet KKKarl is a little pissed too.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. That's complicated, I think.
Smirk is driven by one thing: his narcissism. At its core, narcissism is about fear - fear of non-existence. The narcissist, lacking an autonomous sense of self, affirms his own existence through the reactions/responses of others - sometimes affirmative (approval, applause, etc.) and sometimes adverse (e.g. Karla Faye Tucker). What he DOES NOT want from another is competition for the "stage."

Cheney serves Smirk's pathologies in several ways, as I see it. Cheney very cannily frames items on the neocon agenda in ways that Smirk sees high potential for reaction/response. Indeed, Cheney very carefully supplies or withholds his own responses in ways that put Smirk on a string. At the same time, Cheney NEVER pushes Smirk off the stage, satying in a "undisclosed location" and does what Smirk regards as the scut-work that the job of an Executive requires. (Smirk has never done his own work.)

As long as Smirk doesn't feel the 'cost' of Cheney exceeds his value in serving SMirk's pathologies and as long as Smirk doesn't have a viable alternative to Cheney, he'll do what Cheney 'advises' and won't let anyone else "take his toy (Cheney) away."

I firmly believe that Smirk is driven almost exclusively by his pathologies - not what we'd call "reason" or "ethics." I think it's far more than most assume.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. I agree. n/t
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. You're right, he has to constantly reaffirm his existance.
Like his "I'm the decider" mentality. But the question is, who is he trying to convince and why? Yeah, cheney does the grunt work that bush believes he's above performing. But I also think he resents not being allowed to implement his own ideas (which of course he believes are great) and be the real "decider". He's not clueless and he knows how bad his administration is going to be portrayed through history. I don't know but I just feel that standing up to the dick by not pardoning Libby would be the ultimate reaffirmation of not only his existence, but his legitimacy as the real decider. Does that make sense?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Well ...
Edited on Thu Feb-22-07 12:07 PM by TahitiNut
... when you say "standing up to the dick by not pardoning Libby would be the ultimate reaffirmation of not only his existence, but his legitimacy as the real decider" it really doesn't map to what I see as the way Smirk functions. It presumes some self-assessment on SMirk's part - and I don't believe he engages in self-assessment on any level whatsoever. While he employs language that we would evaluate in terms of our own habits of self-assessment, I believe he employs language SOLELY for the reactions elicited - even language scripted FOR him.

In other words, he PLAYS "decider" independent of any self-evaluation. I have little doubt that anything Cheney drives him to do is regarded, by Smirk, as Smirk's act. Smirk long ago (imho) abandoned any concern regarding his own actual role - I'm convinced he got through college by paying others to do the work. When he gets the assistance of others to gain attention, that's enough - because it's all about the attention he gets.

This is NOT a 'proud' man. Remember, being a drunkard was about the attention. Acting up was about the attention. That he was manipulated do gain more attention by one kind of behavior (front man) than another (coke head) has nothing to do with self-esteem and everything to do about whatever got him more attention. So, it's not at all about the substance - it's about the attention.

When I listen carefully to the language Cheney employs, I hear "this White House" and "we" - the collective 'unitary executive' - consistently. While it's apparent to me that it's Cheney's stance, Cheney diligently (for him, the autocrat) portrays it as collective and, therefore, ultimately Smirk's. I think Smirk swallows that hook, line, and sinker. It's about HIM. remember, it's all about being the center of attention - and even when Cheney is doing the talking (on TV, for example) I think Smirk regards it as someone doing Smirk's own talking. Again, it's about HIM.

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Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #19
97. I agree. Nice dissection th boosh brain, nt
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
59. a2....
didn't think about that....

remember that Marcy Wheeler over at firedoglake (emptywheel) is speculating that Fitzgerald may not be done with just Libby...there is the possibility of getting Cheney at least as an "unindicted co-conspirator"

H2Oman...are you listening? What do you think?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. I think that
a number of the participants in the DU Plame Threads have recognized that Mr. Fitzgerald had his eyes on VP Cheney since he took the case. Over the years, I've quoted what Mark Felt told Bob Woodward many years ago, about how a good investigator turns people, starting at the bottom and working up. We've seen it with Ari Fleischer, and there have been others, as well. Libby attempted to "throw sand in the umpire's eyes." But that is being cleared up.

I do not think naming Cheney as an unindicted co-conspirator would have served justice. I'm glad that the option of indictment remains open.
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SlowDownFast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
8. H20 Man you've simplied this multi-faceted case! K&R
I agree that the President seems to enjoy watching people suffer. Could it be that he would like to see his powerful VP join the suffering considering the conflict Wilson has pointed out between the OVP and that of the President?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. There are some
very unhealthy dynamics between Bush and his father. It is possible that he would transfer some of that pathology to his father-son relationship with Cheney.
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Horseradish Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
44. The Father/Son Point ...
... brings to mind my pondering as to how this all might have gone down, though I may be off base.

1) Post-invasion - no WMD found
2) Wilson article comes out.
3) Poppy thinks, "Oh, no ... this is going to be bad ... my son looks like an idiot." (for the family reputation, etc.) and he basically is thinking (regarding Cheney and the PNAC guys) that they've screwed everything up by being too obvious about their whole power grab. He would have never done it so recklessly ...
4) Novak article comes out.
5) Poppy sees that there may have been an outing. Through his 50 year-old connections in the CIA, urges an investigation to punish Cheney for making his son look like even more of a fool than he already does.
6) Rove is smart and gets whats happening. He squeals to the GJ (5 times!) possibly protecting he and the president and Fitz has the beginning of his case against Cheney.
7) Libby is caught throwing sand in the FBIs eyes and there's an indictment.

Again, I could be way off base here, but your comment about the father/son relationship sparked it. GWB transfered that relationship to he and Cheney and went along with what his father would do to smack him down.

?????
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
49. That's a definite possibility.....are you assuming Cheney is the
father figure?
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Horseradish Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. W is Father-Figure
Channeling his father, maybe subconsciously. Only in this case where his own family's legacy (!) is on the line because of Cheney (in part).

maybe
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. To confuse the issue even further...
I wonder if Cheney regards himself as the father figure? They may both (Bush & Cheney) assume that position, after all it does seem that they are in a power struggle.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Cheney had to have
recognized that Bush2 was searching for a father-figure. It would be stunning if someone as capable as Dick Cheney is of picking up on people's weaknesses, and the point of personal needs where they are most easily manipulated, missed it in a clown like George W. Bush.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. Hey Waterman. The smart move is to not pardon him
Edited on Thu Feb-22-07 10:27 AM by Solly Mack
It's smart for the reasons you've named - it helps to remove Bush from the whole mess. Shrub, even if it does seem otherwise, knows a thing or two about survival.

Not pardoning Libby presents a neat little package of blame deflecting. A desirable condition

Course, pardoning Libby could quash the whole thing as well. But it might not...

A pardon is the in your face, I dare you to challenge me move - of which Bush is not afraid of doing....except Bush has in the past chosen the move of least blame...he's a weasel.

Still, the smart move is not to pardon him - well, it makes the most sense if you are Bush and you want to protect yourself (the image he has of who he is, I should say). Bush isn't who he thinks he is...


But like you, nothing would surprise me. Iran-Contra is ever present in my mind.

I think how Bush does react to the Libby outcome will be very telling about the remainder of Bush's time in office...we'll get an idea of how the larger blame game will play out.

I don't know what Bush will do is my bottomline...but I am curious because I do think it will open a window to how the end game will play.


You still have those "predictions" people made a while back on the outcome?






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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Old predictions.
It's fun to re-read some of the old threads found in the research forum. The complicated nature of the case resulted in periods where some good people became discouraged, and thought that nothing would come of the case. This was particularly true in the spring of 2005, before the Miller and Cooper business hit the fan. And even after the 10-05 indictment, some expressed frustration that Libby was only charged with the lying to the FBI and grand jury. However, as Judge David Tatel noted in his February 15, 2005 decision, perjury "is itself a crime with national security implications" in this context.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. That's the beauty of trials...the new that comes out
Libby even being charged was significant

a conviction? LARGE...

Drops of water can change the surface of a stone - time/patience/results...the big picture

I lack patience :)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
55. kick....
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
14. Reason # 8 for NO pardon
I thought that this would be a reason FOR a pardon, perhaps the most important reason.

If Libby is offered a deal by Fitzgerald, doesn't that place the whole administration in jeopardy by risking that everything will unravel? I want to believe that a pardon won't be granted, more than anything because I want to see this all unravel, all the way up to the top. But I'm afraid that Bush will be thinking the same thing.

Thank you for posting this comprehensive analysis of the situation.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
25. In the period
between the verdict and sentencing, the president would not issue a pardon. That is true, no matter if Libby were giving serious consideration to cooperating with Mr. Fitzgerald or not. Such a move would correctly be viewed as interfering with the court. Not even Bush is that foolish.

You are, of course, exactly right in recognizing that relatively short period of time presents a high risk of jeopardy -- especially for VP Cheney. It's one thing for Scooter to be the silent, brave warrior when the verdict is still in the future. He is surrounded by lawyers and others who encourage that bravery. But once that guilty verdict comes down, Scooter Libby is not going to feel that same support from others. He will look at his family, and weigh out what his silence costs them. It's a strange thing for any human being to face. Incarceration is hell.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. What if Libby and Bush have worked out a deal?
Knowledge of a future pardon is one thing that could work to cause Libby to remain silent, thereby preventing the unravelling that Cheney and Bush so fear. So, it would have been smart for the Bush/Cheney regime to somehow let Libby know that he need not fear long term incarceration.

Or conversely, he might have been threatened into keeping silent, or he simply might figure that his life expectancy is likely to be compromised if he talks.
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NV Whino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
16. Excellent examination of the possibilities
I agree with you about no pardon, but for one reason only--the split between Bush/Rove and Cheney and the Neocons.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. That's a huge reason.
I think it is a major factor. Rove is known for taking pleasure in punishing people he identifies as his enemy.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. My guess is unless there are serious risks for Bush
to pardon him, then he will. If Libby is in prison, what is to stop him from writing a tell all book later on when no one cares about him.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. Incarceration
does strange things to people. Judith Miller found out that it was far, far worse than she anticipated. I'm no fan of our system of jails and prisons. They are brutal places.
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speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. K&R... thanks H2O Man.. will Libby EVER cooperate with Fitz?
Very clear and comprehensive explanation of the "no pardon" case.

Following this trial has allowed me to better understand Libby, which I think is important. He appears to have micro-managed his defense, probably ultimately helping his conviction. He seems to be more confident of his own ability to beat the system than is warranted, which explains his decision not to accept a plea agreement before the trial.

Assuming he is convicted, he will presumably still have an opportunity to cooperate with Fitz in exchange for a reduced sentence. A decision to cooperate would require: 1) a belief on his part that appeals will fail, 2) a belief on his part that there will be no pardon, and most importantly, 3) a psychological severing of his loyalty to Cheney.

That's a lot of course-reversing for Libby, IMO.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. Right.
I agree with the three things you have identified. Libby is intelligent enough to know that Mr. Fitzgerald's handling of this case has undergone significant review from the federal courts, and that even the most conservative judges recopgnized that he had an important case, and was following the letter of the law. While attorneys can always find issues to appeal, that doesn't mean that Libby has a good chance of having his convictions overturned. In fact, the way that the different charges have been separated, even if by chance one count was overturned, the others stay in place.

Libby must also recognize that he hasn't been pardoned, and that if Bush were going to, it would have made more sense 16 months ago.

His loyalty to Cheney is the key. Is it greater than his loyalty to his family? Incarceration makes one consider these value judgements in different terms than Scooter has ever confronted before.
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. Thank you, as usual, for your excellent post. I don't think there will be a pardon.
Simply put....Bush doesn't have the capacity to care about anyone but himself. He could care less what happens to Libby.

And I'm not convinced Libby will be found guilty. I'm sure he IS guilty, but these are strange days and I have a hinky feeling that he is going to slip the hangman's noose.

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evilkumquat Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #23
90. Excellent Point! Katherine Harris is a Good Example
She helped gift-wrap Florida (and thus the election) for the Bush cabal, but in 2006 when it was her turn to need a hand, she was abandoned by Bush and her party.

I think Libby will learn the hard way that loyalty to Generalissimo El Busho is a one-way street.

Of course, this is all moot if he is not convicted of anything.

Evil Kumquat
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Little Wing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
28. Bush is the kind of guy who will sell his co-conspirator up the river in the name
of Justice, because in his mind justice has to be done. He's one-track minded like that, I don't think he's capable of pardoning anyone - until of course Cheney slips him the list 2 days before he leaves office.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
32. Bush will pardon Libby IF he is convicted by this jury because....
Libby has a wealth of information that he can trade to Fitzgerald in making a deal to avoid incarceration and financial ruin, not to mention public shame for his family.

The link between Libby and CHeney and Rove and Bush has already been discovered by Fitzgerald, and Cheney is next on the chopping block unless this ends now.

A terrorists attack on the homeland and/or a massive loss of life in Iraq or attack on Iran would totally obliterate the public attention to what happens to Libby, and a pardon issued in those circumstances would hardly raise a blip.

Libby has a chance of walking with this jury, but if he is convicted there will be extended appeals and the necessity of a pardon will become more urgent the closer Libby gets to actually going to prison.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
33. Other possibilities
One possibility is that Scooter goes to prison with no pardon and a harsh sentence, and falls fatal victim to some unfortunate prison violence (even at Club Fed), thus precluding his writing a tell-all book. Stranger things have happened.

Another possibility is that Bush pardons Scooter, who then takes his family and leaves the country with a boatload of cash, in order be beyond the reach of a subpoena. Again, stranger things have happened.

Bake
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. K&R!
:kick:
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
36. Thank you, H2O Man for the concise breakdown
for those of us trying to "keep up" with the twists and turns of this misadministration and trial.

:hi:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
37. one thing that sticks in my gut..Fitz would offer a deal before sentencing..
Edited on Thu Feb-22-07 12:51 PM by flyarm
would * really grant a pardon between the guilty verdict and sentencing..??

i do not see that happening..

he could have promised that..but Libby would have to be 100% sure..with no doubt whatsoever that * would pardon him..to not take a deal from fitz.....but if he has any doubt..that he would be pardoned ..and not be being thrown under the bus by rove..because rove is the key i believe.. ..that would require a real stretch of faith by libby in a white house that could have already pardoned him..but did not...how much faith does Libby have left??
and the key is before sentencing for a deal.....he could get 30 years..or 1 ..or 6 months ...

it will all depend on his faith in rove and *...cheney could have promised him the moon...but cheney does not hold the pardon key..* and Rove do...Libby would have to have the same faith in * and rove...and he has to be willing to gamble with his life..and his families life!!

He has seen how * and rove work up front and personal...if we think we know about all the suicides around this administration..just imagine what we don't know...and Libby does know..

Prison would not be kind to Libby..he knows too much...the squeeky wheel stays alive...camera's and media seem to keep people safer..Joe Wilson understood that..clearly.....out of sight and out of mind see's many suicides..or weird accidents around this bunch...

thats a big gamble in my opinion for Libby to take..

libby is an attorney..he is no one's fool..either way his life is on the line...

will he trust * and company..( rove) or will he trust Fitz...

a fool would trust * and company..in my opinion...

again Libby is no one's fool...

oh and the fact that i believe Libby and cheney already tried to set up rove...for the fall..( as witnessed by all roves visits to the grand jury!!)

Rove makes cheney look like a puppy dog in the revenge front..

just my 2 cents...fly

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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
38. Two questions:
What is the potential jail time if convicted on all counts? Today's Washington Post article by Amy Goldstein says 1 1/2 to 3 years. Isn't that off by a factor of ten?

Second: does it enter into Scooter's calculations that Fitzgerald may have a case against Cheney with or without Scooter's cooperation? To be the good soldier and take the fall, and have your boss indicted anyway must be a scenario that a husband and father would take into account.

Thanks for the excellently detailed OP!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. All Reports I've Heard Have Said Up To 30 Years
Wouldn't that be lovely and wouldn't Fitz have an effective bargaining cudgel? IMHO, Fitz does need Scooter. He is the one person who actually talked to Cheney, a number of times. The rest isn't strong enough, even his handwriting on the NYT, without Scooter, to convict a veep of the US. Pretty clever, right, the way the shooter had Scooter do all the incriminating dirty work? It may be why I Liar's friends told him to make a deal.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. from what i understand ..he could get 30 years for all counts..but.....
there are sentencing guidelines that would be in place in this case...

i could be wrong, but that is what i have understood..i do not know what those guidelines would entail..

fly
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. It Would Be For A Combined Total
But then I'm hoping for guilty on all counts.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. That is the max...
Judge Walton would sentence him to a fairly stiff amount of time. He'd serve a portion of it, and then he would seek parole. Remember that being incarcerated is hell for everyone, except those who are institutionalized. Libby will not have an easy time.
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meldroc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
41. A pardon is not certain...
For one thing, if Bush does pardon Libby, Libby would no longer be able to invoke Fifth Amendment protections against self-incrimination. He'll have no judicial consequences for the crimes he committed in the Plame affair, so he could be subpoenaed by Fitz and forced to sing like a canary about his crimes, and the crimes of Cheney and Bush.

So my bet is that if Bush decides to issue a pardon, he will wait until just before he leaves office, when it becomes less likely that Fitz or anyone else will try to come after him.

Even so, Bush's and Cheney's crimes are very, very serious, so it is distinctly possible they'll face criminal prosecution and years in prison even after they leave office. In that case, pardoning Libby will leave him as a potential witness against them, so they may decide against a pardon.

If that's the case, Libby will be facing years of prison, and Fitz has an opening to offer a plea bargain in exchange for singing.

I guess it depends on what hole cards Fitz has in his hand. If he has enough hard evidence that he can persuade Libby that he isn't going to get a pardon because they don't want Libby as a witness, then he'll get a plea bargain, in which case Cheney may be forced out or even imprisoned himself (that thought makes me warm and fuzzy inside. :evilgrin: )

My guess is that the most probable outcome is that Libby will continue to fall on his sword like a good soldier, try for the pardon, stay out of prison on appeals until January 2009, when Bush issues the pardon after he and Cheney decide they'll be able to weasel out of serious consequences.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
43. I see something of a Catch-22 here
If Bush pardons Libby, there will be outrage, and as H20Man pointed out, he likely will be dragged in front of the Democrat Congress and forced to testify. If Bush doesn't pardon him, he risks Libby's enmity and desire to either cut a deal by naming names (Bush/Rove?), or write something damning from the solitude of his jail cell -- at his own peril of course -- but when looking at hard time in the slammer, he might want to spread some of the misery around. :shrug:
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. If this were the mafia, they would put a hit on Libby
Because he knows too much.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Even that has its risks now that the trial has occurred
Edited on Thu Feb-22-07 01:21 PM by Mandate My Ass
I'm somewhat torn between being surprised they allowed a trial to happen at all or seeing it as totally consistent with their gallingly unflinching hubris. They always think they're the smartest guys in the room. Fitz chewed them up and spit them out like baby food.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. This Is One Situation Where Hubris Caught Them By The Neck
There was an article (last week?) by Waas (?) that explained how when Cheney set the wheels in motion to find out which member of Congress had leaked classified info to the media ( Republican Shelby), they made such a stink about leaks, hoping to capitalize on it, that when the Plame situation came up they had to give into an investigation. Though with Asscroft still in charge they thought they were safe. When he had to recuse himself it all hit the fan. Plus the CIA insisted the DOJ investigate.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. The Administration made soooo many mistakes with the Plame leak
that it seems to me that no matter what they choose to do, pardon or not, they are damned. :hi: They could have made this all go away years ago, but they thought they were above it all. Their whole operation is collapsing.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Yup, the initial and fatal mistake was trusting Ashy to make this go away
Not realizing or believing he would ever have to recuse himself. By then the lies were out there and we know how they pile lies up not caring how totally disingenuous it sounds. That has worked for them -- until now.
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Horseradish Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Their second mistake was trusting that the press ...
... would not testify. Russert seemed safe. Big mistake.

And what makes this case different, IMO, regarding the press is that this case relies heavily on the press role in the alleged crime -- unlike the Steroids thing which wasn't hedging on a leak to the press, but source protection regarding evidence not related to the press ... if I have it right.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
61. I think it is
pretty clear that the only thing Libby can trade is the information on Cheney.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
51. Great post H2O man
Hope you're right.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
60. Very interesting read!
Edited on Thu Feb-22-07 02:43 PM by Spazito
The points you make wrt why a pardon is not necessarily in the works are important points to make for sure. Your points (3), (6) and (7) are where my thoughts have been as to bush's pathology and would be consistent with his previous behavior. I had not thought of the additional points you have made and find them quite persuasive.

I do find it very interesting and, imo, very telling the right wing are now highlighting the "pardon" meme instead of the innocence of Libby. To me, it says they have already conceded the likelihood of conviction on some, if not all, of the charges.

Recommended.

Edited to correct multiple spelling errors (need to do spell check BEFORE posting, not after, lol)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. I read a few
rabid right-wing rantings yesterday. The know the boy is convicted. What scares them is where Mr. Fitzgerald is aiming for next.

From Rush Limbaugh: "...Fitzgerald pointed the finger at Dick Cheney. I have always known that Cheney was the target of this. I think this is purely personal." (Libby Trial a Joke, But It's a DC Jury;2-21-07)

From Cryin' Byron York: "What became unmistakably clear, though was Fitzgerald's fundamental theory of the case. As much as the prosecutor talked about Libby's alleged lies, it was obvious that Fitzgerald, on Tuesday as well as throughout the investigation, believed his chief target was -- and perhaps still is -- Dick Cheney. ...

"... It was all led by Cheney, Fitzgerald charged. And it all sounded quite ominous." (Scooter Who? In Closing Arguments, Fitzgerald Points the Finger at Dick Cheney; 2-21-07)

They know what is coming, up around the bend.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #64
79. I agree, Fitzgerald used ONLY what was needed to prosecute
his case against Libby and kept everything from the wider investigation out of the hands of the defense team and those who would be MOST interested to know what else Fitzgerald discovered during the investigation. Fitzgerald has not said the investigation is closed, the only comment he has made on this is from his press conference announcing the indictment of Libby:

MR. FITZGERALD: Let me answer the two questions you asked in one. Okay. Is the investigation finished? It's not over but I'll tell you this -- very rarely do you bring a charge in a case that's going to be tried and would you ever end a Grand jury investigation. I can tell you the substantial bulk of the work in this investigation is concluded. This Grand jury's term has expired by statute. It could not be extended. But it's an ordinary course to keep a Grand jury open to consider other matters and that's what we'll be doing.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/documents/2005_10_28_fitzgerald_press_conference.pdf

This quote can be found on page 5 of the pdf numbering.



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Ishoutandscream2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
63. This whole thread has been one of the most fascinating
discussions I have read on DU. Delving into the whole PSYCHOLOGY of this trial and possible future implications in this case is fascinating. Great job, Waterman, and to the rest of you with your amazing insights. Just a great read!!
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
67. I think libby is a dead man walking
He's screwn but good, he knows too much for his own good, his confederates can't trust him to keep his mouth shut. If he goes to prison he may talk to get even, if he gets a pardon he loses fifth amendment protection. Either wa would be very bad for * and crashcart, they would always have libby hanging over their heads, that may make them worried enough to get sloppy trying to remove the problem.
Another real possibility is the impeachment of both of these assholes, * and crash, so nobody gets pardoned which is the way I'd like it to come out.
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La_Fourmi_Rouge Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
68. Thanks for the Hundredth time, H2O. Question:
What are the chances that Judge Walton will make Scooter begin serving his sentence before appeals are exhausted? To my recollection, a judge is not bound to let the defendant remain free - the judge may rule that the appeal will probably be denied and order Libby to the pen right away.

Is that just wishfull thinking on my part?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. I would not expect
that Judge Walton will be granting Scooter many favors. He is known as a stern judge. And keep in mind that he will be fully aware of any offers that Mr. Fitzgerald may make to his defense team. I've noted before that he is one of the last federal judges that Libby wants to face upon sentencing.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
69. Interesting Thought From Swopa @ FDL
Edited on Thu Feb-22-07 03:28 PM by Me.
"Murray Waas has long reported that FBI investigators as far back as the fall of 2003 believed that Libby, Rove, and Novak had cooked up joint alibis to minimize their wrongdoing — but as he pointed out, it's a truism of criminal probes that if all parties to a private conversation lie about it, there's almost no way to convict them for obstruction of justice. If Libby is convicted of the current charges, however, and he wants to cut a deal without sacrificing his boss Big Dick… maybe he could start by coming clean about his collaborations with Turdblossom and Novakula?"

Edited to say: My thought is Cheney is the target and Fitz has always had Rove right where he wanted him.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. I think that
to be accurate, it should be noted that Mr. Waas has suggested that investigators suspected that Rove and Novak had their heads together, and they knew Libby had spoken to Cheney, even after having been warned not to.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
72. Libby's going to take the fall, and he won't be pardoned
This whole deal is to protect Rove and Cheney, and if Libby isn't delivered up as the sacrificial goat, the administration knows that the prosecution will come after those two with all guns blazing. Their hope is that if they throw Scooter overboard, the prosecution will be satisfied and won't go after anybody else.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
73. FITZ!
“People around here know me. They know I've never been entirely comfortable with the shouts of "Fitz!" as a community cheer in our comment section. My belief is we should not wait for the courts to do the work of politics: it's not their purpose. Moreover, looking for a hero on a white horse makes spectators of us all, when instead I've always been intensely focused on inspiring people to become active, to take their own power back, so together we can change the direction of the country in a sustainable way.

But there's no way to have seen live, in person, the day of closing statements without coming out of the room thinking, "Fitz!". . . whether in awe, impressed neutrality or in abject horror and foreboding, depending on your view of the case.: cont…


At the outset of the case, I wrote about some signature personalities in the courtroom: Fitzgerald, Walton and Wells. Tuesday's dramatics did not so much involve Walton but they did add Jeffress to the list. The title of that post was "Who's Your Daddy?" The proof of who may have been the most effective attorneys in the case won't come until the verdicts are in, and I won't speculate on what verdicts the jury will deliver, or when. As a scientist of human behavior, I'm highly circumspect about ever making any predictions about specific future behaviors under specific conditions. It's far easier to predict group behaviors and probabilities given repeated exposure to known stimuli, based on probabilities, but narrow things down to specific individuals and circumstances, and all bets are off. Juries are unpredictable. “ cont…

“The verdicts will be the final arbiter of this trial's winners and losers, but based purely on being there, feeling it, soaking it all in and watching everyone around me, including close inspection of the defense team, the day of closing arguments belonged to one man, and one man alone.

You know the name.”

www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/22/fitz/#more-7382



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milkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
75. Bush went to war to show up his father. Now he'll let Libby hang to show up Cheney.
Junior just can't stand being perceived as junior to anyone. After all, God chose him, not Cheney.

Great post, H2O Man.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
76. Simplifying further
I think the relationship between Bush and his relationships with his inner circle deserve at least a whole large post of their own.

It would be good to look at their policy behavior which is always political with a big skew to taking short cuts and running over the "small stuff", i.e. whatever doesn't actually kill you makes you stronger. The hope of a pardon, even without guarantees, assurances or discussions is a plastic carrot on a long stick. The certainty of punishment and equally shadowy threats of lethal consequences far outweigh the rosy lure. The guarantee of financial reward and safe havens for loyalty is much clearer since they already enjoy this and nothing is as stronger in denying a disastrous fate than present security.

The way they handle all policy decisions is to actually wait out the slowness and ignore them even though extremely powerful and swift tools are employed to assault perception. Nothing there is that cannot be spun and ignored. Therefore no vetoes, just bury the legislation off camera in signing statements. No bones for political allies or rivals even of the closest affiliation. They ALL twist slowly in the wind and the discipline of power from the vague but certain origins at the top even have left Rove and Cheney dangle with less support than one would expect of a dictator's inner circle. Part of this indeed is a worrying sign(to the supposed inner circle) that Junior cannot be pressed too much to invest courage and loyalty(or enagaed competency) of his own. As for Cheney's "father" figure, one can see the limits of that when they are together and watch the wheedling deference and wide eyed admiration Cheney exhibits when burbling and letting Junior do his thing. Maybe Dimson should watch those tapes sometime with a jaundiced eye. EVERYONE is convinced they can play Junior but he has a dangerous selfish and, as often noted, dumb and uninformed skew to the radical meanness of any RW extremism that doesn't demand anything of him personally. He hates the errors, the defeats and the failures that actually puncture his bubble. He feels offended that the people he trusted and needed as tools then let him down in any way, even if by his orders.

Next, in order to protect himself after the presidency he needs a docile successor, not the myriad of pardons that would take so long to iterate that he might collapse from exhaustion and inevitably disappoint a few threatened cronies. Enron people thinking to get pardons before Xmas 2008 might prefer suicide to jail. All have been helped somewhat in delaying the prison time. Like our troops in Iraq have been vigorously helped. Like our homeland defenses have been energetically advanced. Like Israel's peace plans have been pushed forward. Like the Saudis and oil guys have been served and protected. Like bipartisanship with even corporate Dems has been brilliantly and energetically applied. Like cooperation and enhancement of the fortunes and reputations of the GOP and fawning press have been benefited. Like money has been showered on the rich to shut them up as the world burns. That is...

Not.

No fear and power come first, and the lazy application thereof that means let the other guy sweat the details and the mess and the drama while the clarity and simplicity necessary for Lazyboy Decider simply go their own way with the mere tools of exploitation and myths used in a minimalist Armageddon of everything. Libby is no different than the naive "liberal" hoping that Junior will see the light on education or bow to popular wisdom or real world facts. In their diverted, fearful and privileged(aren't we all somewhat) roles they never face up to the writer and director who will never do much for anyone and anything. Humanity has become a farcical, anguished, sad and failed Hamlet.

Pardons are a fearful hope indeed. Worse than Nixon's more engaged fretting and raging, the diffidence of this absolute power system offers as much loyalty and hope and commitment as it does to any truck driver in the Sunni Triangle. So it is not the pardon, it is the fear, the void of isolation they cannot face and which, in a destructive too close relationship with Junior, they all must fear from each other, press, hacks, and the victimized tools fools of the general world they have been seduced so easily to betray.

So pardons will be handed out like the punishments, on callous whim and minimal need. The only change in this is if Junior suddenly wakes up to a personal fear of his own. However, unlike his father he has come to scorn real world consequences ever applying to him. The GOP selection will be his own, or at least his clan's choice. The Dem choice they hope(well, a lot more than hope, engineer?) will be Hillary whose entanglements in reasoning and dealing with Dad would be advantageous is unpalatable in making a clean getaway from a regime of crime. These are all someone else's problems which is why even the Saudis need Cheney's glib assurances and even allies in long planned bloody actions must sweat it out with the imprisoned. As the days to his retirement tick down it is all like some weird Doomsday clock of its own. Will it be a Gordian Knot of the world's arteries Junior will scornfully punt to whomever or a messy wrap up to benefit his RW and dynasty ambitions? ALL speculations lead one to horror that has been evaded like a bad loan accruing interest. Most want the shame of avoidance to continue and sweep this disgrace to the race under the burning rug.

If everyone would face the puppet they use or suffer under, or remove the closest tools needed by Junior to cope with absolute pretension there would be less speculation on what the King will do and more clarity about what everyone else should do, even those most at odds with each other so absurdly and incompetently and messily because the reliance on what Junior will deign to do is the single most dangerous power equation afflicting mankind today.

Enough pardons, enough threat to protect himself and never completely. Daring and impunity and deference by others will suffice to measure a path of pain that human justice has been seen consistently to avoid. But Junior's "disengaging" personality is certainly an insulting gauntlet thrown down exceeding the limits of realpolitik and cynicism. It is a challenge that the human race is unfit to exist and its unloved orphan Tyrant still owns our soul, our myths and our meager rations of common existence whether we are right, left or pragmatically diffident. He is more a real threat to his allies than anyone else since he has lead them to the brink of absolute exposure and defeat- and that is all he will ever do except push them over.

I sense even Cheney, whom he needs like Rove, is treated with the same lack as the US military or the Constitution or world opinion. There are no limits to the emptiness. How could self preservation at this level even be a concern possible to address when nothing else really has been? Pushed too far there will be no pardons at all perhaps. Spite could be a power mad reflex to avoid fear just as Libby avoids dealing rationally to mitigate his own consequences.

The odd thing is that it is NOT a done deal there will be pardons. Dimson has to utter the words and he certainly will not take times in Nixonian plotting. There has been no fearful need to make a firm deal. It is quite the opposite that keeps them dancing and twisting in the winds. Habits of power, certainty of fear with a soupcon of hand-wringing hope that is buried in the smirk of our President like Judas being eternally chewed by moronic Lucifer in Dante's Inferno. Even Cheney should feel those teeth. He's just the top demon that gets too close.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
77. How to make sure Libby isn't pardoned....
Edited on Thu Feb-22-07 05:56 PM by Stuckinthebush
Democratic leaders and talking heads need to say:

"We all know that Dick Cheney is running the show and Bush is a puppet of the Vice President. We fully expect Bush to bow to Cheney's demands and pardon his lackey. This is highly unfortunate, but will probably happen because Cheney wants to protect himself. If Libby is pardoned, then it is a clear indication that Bush is no longer, if he ever was, in charge."

Bush hates being seen as a puppet.
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
78. What makes you think he'll be convicted?
I'm not making any assumptions here.
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
80. (11) It will be much easier for the Scooter
to suicide himself or have a fatal accident if he is not in prison.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
81. Question regarding pardons + losing the right to take the fifth:
Excuse my ignorance here folks, but if receiving a pardon revokes the ability to plead the fifth, then why doesn't a Dem congress subpoena March Rich regarding his past endeavors? (or other crooks for that matter?)
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
82. Reason 9 for NO pardon.
Of all the reasons, this is the one, post 11/7, that trumps all others. If Bush did pardon Libby, I believe Waxman would put everything else on the backburner to focus on conducting an investigation into all things Plame related. And get everyone under oath. I think both Rove AND Cheney can find common ground in doing whatever they can to avoid that possibility, so I doubt either is pushing Bush for a pardon of Libby.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. #9
I think that is a significant factor.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
84. I'm thinking pardon
Could go either way but to reward Scooter's loyalty and keep him from spilling anything really damaging, I'm thinking pardon. The other reason is that Chimpy really does seem to think of himself and his buddies as above the law and I think he'd see a pardon as a way of reinforcing that, a kind of "up yours" to teh courts.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
86. I think you have written an excellent thread BUT
perhaps you might be too logical in a totally illogical situation. This administration follows no rationale for reasoning its way to logical conclusions. It just does what it wants and damn the public reaction.

If Bush* decides to pardon Libby to keep certain details on this and other hot-potato subjects from emerging, he will do so simply to cover his flank. He has nothing to lose by doing so and perhaps quite of bit to save (in terms of presidential (sic) posterior). So whatever is in Bush*s best interests is what Bush* will do.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-22-07 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. I think that
fits description #6 in the reasons he might grant a pardon -- Bush loves the sense of power, and the ability to do things, no matter what others think.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
88. President Pelosi will pardon Libby


for dropping a dime on Vice President Pork Chop and President AWOL.


:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #88
93. Good One
And good thought to start out the morning
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live love laugh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
89. And when he does pardon Libby, it will go over most peoples' heads
It will be buried in the news just like the trial. Sure, it'll be mentioned, but there'll be no context.
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Patrick J Fitzgerald Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
91. Too Soon For Talks Of Pardons, Son...
It's almost High Noon...



Washington Post -

A Nonpartisan Reputation at Stake
For Prosecutor, Libby Verdict May Mean Vindication or Political Taint

more- http://patrickjfitzgerald.blogspot.com
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
92. I've been thinking about this. I can't seem to come to
an opinion on the matter on whether he will be pardoned. Does Fitz have more charges up his sleeves regarding any other figures?
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 07:22 AM
Response to Original message
94. Thanks again, H2O Man...K and R
:popcorn:
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
95. Will a pardon stop Plame-Wilson from pursuing a civil recourse?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. No. n/t
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
98. Presidential Pardon
Just a thought, before there can be a Presidential Pardon, there has to be a Federal Convicitionl. We do not have one of those yet.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. No conviction
is necessary for a pardon.
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