Ya Know... We All Talk A Good Game About "Change" Here...

[WillyT]

but when the status quo benifits your particular candidate, change gets sent to the back of the bus, doesn't it???

:mad:

Psst... The status quo says that Kucinch should have gracefully bowed out by now. It also says the same thing about Edwards soon. And next will be...

:shrug:

[WillyT]

1. Kick !!!

:kick:

[Horse with no Name]

2. First of all

The logistics. IF Edwards bowed out...it wouldn't stop the debate. Period. It would be our LONE progressive voice pissing his pants and getting sent home. Nothing else.
So please...Edwards standing up would have been nothing but political suicide for him (and us).
However, IF Obama AND Clinton teamed up against the exclusion (since they obviously had a conversation about being nice, surely they could have thrown that in as an afterthought) it would have actually made a difference. THEY are the ROCK STARS of this race. THEY have voices. THEY have the media presence.
Please direct your anger towards those that could have changed it. Edwards is barely hanging on--the debate would have gone on without him. It would NOT have gone on without Obama and/or Clinton.

[WillyT]

3. Or... Maybe The Kucinch Supporters Would Throw In With Edwards Instead Of Obama

Just a thought.

:shrug:

[Horse with no Name]

4. Kucinich already threw his support behind Obama

and asked his followers to do the same.
Obama owed Dennis a solid for that one. Why didn't HE make the inclusion of Dennis an issue? I guarantee if Obama told MSNBC he wasn't going to attend unless Dennis was included...Dennis would have been included.
The last thing the MSM wants is NOT to have an Obama/Hillary showdown. I believe it is THE reason that Dennis was excluded. They wanted to give as many opportunities for that to happen as possible, and with fewer candidates, the chances obviously would have been higher.

[WillyT]

6. And That IS The Status Quo !!!

The candidates, and the MSM, have been wanting to toss people off the stage for the last several weeks.

And just because Dennis threw his support to Obama, does not necessarily mean all of his supporters will go there. If Edwards had stood up for Dennis, many more might have gone Edward's way than would otherwise.

:shrug:

[puebloknot]

32. Dennis Kucinich said, in a Bill Moyers interview last week...

...that he supported Obama *only for Iowa,* and that he will be trying to get votes in succeeding primaries.

A lot of Kucinich supporters, myself included, will not vote for Obama, even if Dennis suggests it!

[eridani]

34. What he did was to make a stupid tactical decision while pissed off

Pissed off about what? See below--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSoCHfyYCew

If you are behind, you need the threeway race at the top to stay as even as possible, which ought to have dictated support for third place Edwards if anyone. Though what he should have done was to tell his feral cat supporters to vote their consciences, as we are not about to be herded by Dennis or anybody else.

[Pastiche423]

5. It might not stop the debate

but it would have shown that he cares about We, the People not the corporations like he's been saying.

But We, the People only get in his way. He's a poseur, just like the other two.

All his talk is just that - talk. When he had the chance to prove he means what he says, he said, fuck that!

[nonconformist]

8. So it's better that there are NO progressive voices in the debate?

Talk about the media's wet dream on that one.

Sorry, I don't think that Edwards should have boycotted the debate to pacify a small handful of Kucinich supporters who are breaking for Obama (as instructed) anyway.

:shrug:

[Pastiche423]

10. It is not about pacifying

It's about democracy and not letting the M$M decide who we vote for.

But you can go ahead and be a nice little corporate ass licker.

[nonconformist]

11. Corporate ass licker?

Wouldn't that be someone who prefers that the debate was only between Obama and Hillary, which is what would have happened if Edwards had dropped.

Oh, I get it... if you're not a Kucinich supporter, you're not a real Democrat. Right?

[Pastiche423]

17. No

In a democracy all voices should be heard, not just the ones that agree w/corporations.

I was warming up to one of the three until tonight. They don't care about democracy, then I do not care about them.

[nonconformist]

23. Ok, I'll bite.

"In a democracy all voices should be heard"

Gravel was shut out of the debate too. But I didn't see Kucinich falling a sword over that - quite the contrary. He was fighting like hell to be IN the debate. And I sure didn't see any Kucinich supporters, or Gravel supporters for that matter, call for him to do so.

So, why is it different?

[nonconformist]

27. Kick

[Horse with no Name]

28. And the answer is....

That Kucinich is in the same boat as Edwards is. Of course there is nothing worse than someone who chooses to overlook facts over histrionics.
MSM would be THRILLED if they all bowed out except Obama and Hillary. As they continually reinforce by actions...the other candidates, if they had their druthers...would be irrelevant.

[WillyT]

12. Oh C'Mon... I'm Not Laying This All On Edwards, But...

he might have been able to use this to his advantage by issuing a challenge to the other two to stand with Dennis and Democracy. If he's really the labor-supporting populist he purports to be, he might have gotten a bunch more votes by staying out and letting the Hillary and Barack mud\love fest go on without him.

Unless this is his LAST debate.

"All the way to the convention". Right???

:shrug:

[nonconformist]

14. And, who would have heard this bold message?

Do you think that NBC would have told their viewers? Or would they have just said that Edwards declined to appear, and left it at that?

Bottom line, the ONLY difference Edwards sitting out would have made would have been NO progressive voices at the debate.

Look, I understand that Kucinich supporters are upset - and for good reason. But it DOES seem that people are lashing out at Edwards over this, which puzzles me. Gravel was excluded from the debate as well, but I haven't hardly heard a whimper about that.

[WillyT]

15. Well... It Just Might Have Gotten Out On The "Internets", LOL !!!

I'd bet ya dollar to donut that's where most of Edward's and Kucinich's support comes from right now.

:shrug:

[nonconformist]

25. Perhaps - but most of those people are pretty informed to begin with

And have, for the most part, already made up their minds.

[Horse with no Name]

16. How is not showing up to a debate an ADVANTAGE?

Kucinich was my first choice (after Gore).
First think you need to get a grasp on...that most people are NOT political junkies. The people that are aware of the nuance of all of this are a very small number of people who are already FIRMLY entrenched in their own candidates camp would not have computed to "a bunch more votes". What it might have done is persuade some REAL people out there to vote for Hillary and/or Obama instead.
You should direct your anger at the ones in the debate who COULD have made a difference.
I find it "odd" that your venom is directed mostly at Edwards--the only candidate on the stage who could NOT make a difference.

[WillyT]

18. Wow... You Feel I'm "Venoumous" ???

As stated elsewhere in this thread, I believe Edwards could have turned this to his advantage.

But then maybe I'm giving him more credit than he's due.

:shrug:

[Horse with no Name]

20. Going after someone who had no voice in the matter is

The sad, political truth is that Kucinich has very little support and their candidate has already chosen the candidate he likes and it wasn't Edwards.
The fact that you expect Edwards to commit political suicide for someone who supports a different candidate is just fucking nuts.

[WillyT]

21. First, I Don't Think It Would Have Been Political Suicide To... Show Some Guts !!!

And the fact that you keep repeating the meme that Edwards was "powerless" or had "no voice in the matter" is not exactly the ringing endorsement that one would expect from a supporter of a person that wants to be the next president of this country!

:wtf:

[Horse with no Name]

22. Oh please. MSM is doing everything they can to silence Edwards

and you think if he threw a tantrum that it would do any good? Surely you are NOT that naive? It is what it is and you fucking well know it.
Like I said...the only two candidates that MSM cares one iota about is Clinton and Obama. Save your venom for them because THEY could have changed it and Obama OWED it to Dennis for throwing his support towards him.
End.of.conversation.

[Horse with no Name]

9. It would have just been presented by the MSM that Edwards

CHOSE not to attend with no reasons given. Other than netroots activists, nobody would have known why--cause it sure wouldn't have been broadcast.
He is not a poseur, but you are in some serious denial if you think that Edwards not participating would have changed anything.

[Pastiche423]

13. Denial of what?

That his decision to go along w/the corporations is against what he's been preaching?

Tonight he proved that all of his anti-corporation talk is bullshit. Screw democracy! Screw anyone and anything that gets in his way to be president.

[Horse with no Name]

19. He isn't there representing the corporations

He is there representing people like ME. Real people. I wanted him there...just like I would have welcomed Kucinich being there because he certainly adds something to the conversation. But that wasn't my decision, like it wasn't his.
I find it APPALLING that people like you want to silence MY voice. The only two that could have effected the change did not...yet the one person who could not is who you choose to berate.
:puke:

[Pastiche423]

26. Oh that's rich

Your voice silenced? lol

You got to see and hear your johnnyboy. You got to hear your voice spoken. So everything's just dandy!

johnnyboy could have effected change tonight. He chose not to.

Please cut the victim crap.

[Blue Congress]

29. Can I recommend your response?

:toast:

[Pastiche423]

30. I'd be honored

[fascisthunter]

7. I'm Glad there are Some Who Still Aren't Blind

it gives me that much hope.... unfortunately for the others, it will take much more for them to realize it themselves. Much more.

[Skittles]

24. I never realized there were so many blind DUers

until recently

[pamela]

31. I don't think Kucinich should bow out.

Actually, I wish Richardson, Biden and Dodd would have stayed in, too. I hate that so few states have so much power and that the media dictates our choices.

Don't paint with such a broad brush. I've seen a lot of Edwards supporters say Dennis should have been in the debate. But, Gravel should have been, too.

[leftofthedial]

33. change is impossible in America

without revolution

revolution is impossible while people still are compliant consumers

[OneBlueSky]

35. the coming economic meltdown will shake consumers to their very core . . .

and they still won't rebel . . . after all, it's American Idol season! . . .

[mondo joe]

36. There are varying degrees of change. It's a word subject to a lot of interpretation.

What seems like modest change to some will seem radical to others.

[leftofthedial]

37. Americans don't want real change

they want someone who make them believe the unsustainable "American-Dream-lifestyle" can be restored

they want big cars, big suburban McMansions, high pay and great benefits (but no unions) . . .

Any candidate who advocates the kind of change this fucked-up country needs to survive another generation is "unelectable."

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MzNov]

39. Change?