9:30 eastern on HBO: Ghosts of Abu Ghraib

[CatWoman]

Filmmaker Rory Kennedy examines the abuse of inmates at an Iraqi prison.........

[jannyk]

1. Thank you! Though it's only 6.30pm here. About to start n/t

[patrice]

2. Is it only HD? I'm not getting it.

:(

Crap!! $150. a month and I CAN'T WATCH THIS THING!!!

On edit: That includes cable modem. I think the TV package is $100. @ mo.

[CatWoman]

4. Here are the other airtimes

don't know why you're not getting it:

Airtimes

(HBO) Channel 301
Thu 2/22 9:30 PM

(HBOHD) Channel 880
Thu 2/22 9:30 PM

(HBOP) Channel 311
Fri 2/23 12:30 AM

(HBO) Channel 301
Fri 2/23 4:35 AM

(HBOHD) Channel 880
Fri 2/23 4:35 AM

(HBOP) Channel 311
Fri 2/23 7:35 AM

(HBO) Channel 301
Tue 2/27 12:15 AM

(HBOHD) Channel 880
Tue 2/27 12:15 AM

(HBOP) Channel 311
Tue 2/27 3:15 AM

(HBO2) Channel 303
Wed 2/28 10:15 PM

(HBO2) Channel 303
Sun 3/4 1:00 AM

(HBO) Channel 301
Tue 3/6 10:00 PM

(HBOHD) Channel 880
Tue 3/6 10:00 PM

(HBOP) Channel 311
Wed 3/7 1:00 AM

[patrice]

5. It says HBOHD.

Thanks CatWoman. I'll try again later.

I wonder if that's somekind of programming decision. Do you have an HD TV?

[patrice]

6. Got it now. I had searched the title and it only reported the HD channel.

So your post with the other channels helped a bunch.

Thanks much!

[walldude]

3. Iraq for sale had quite a bit of material on Abu Grahib as well.

It's funny how you put these images out of your mind and then when you see them again it just breaks your heart anew.

[patrice]

7. God, Miller is an ugly fuck. n/t

[lonestarnot]

8. No gottie HBO :>(

[Marrah_G]

9. I want to throw up

Not sure I can watch this whole thing. The soldiers, they look like they haven't slept in years. How could we do this?

Maybe if enough people see this then they will finally see not only that 3000+ americans have died, but that our country is responsible for doing these horrible things to people who did nothing wrong. Is it shocking enough, will they cry when they see it?

[patrice]

12. Read about Stanley Milgram's research.

That's how.

On edit: Also Philip Zimbardo

[erinlough]

10. Oh My God, what have we let happen?

We, the American People can follow American Idol, mourn for a dead misguided woman, but we let these murderous leaders stay in power. Why are they not in jail!!!! What have we done to these soldiers, what have we done to the irag population. I mourn for our country, and for once I know what German citizens must have felt like. I'm sick.

[patrice]

17. Thank you for saying that.

The faces of those soldiers, those were regular Americans.

What has happened IS what the U.S. is.

Every last one of us, the "adults" anyway, every last one of us is responsible, not just the IWR Yeas - whom WE elected.

[patrice]

11. nothing to say . . .

That pretty much says it all.

. . . . . .

[Sydnie]

13. and that's just the tip of the iceberg

Imagine what the videos that they have are like. Imagine what was placed into that "amnesty box"!

[sabra]

14. imagine what happened in the wooden integration room with no windows :-(

[Sydnie]

15. And we are going to let these desensitized monsters

back into society. They didn't start out that way, as evidenced by the interviews with those involved in the famous pictures (except for maybe a few that did start out that way) but they learned this behavior and they fed on it.

Imagine what they could do with those skills when they get back home? They are numb and so are most of the public to what they were doing. Will we notice and make the comparison when it starts to happen here? Or, will it be business as usual for us here because, well, according to them, it's already more dangerous to live here than it is to live in Iraq!

[patrice]

19. They ARE us.

We caused this thing.

We have the leaders WE/our system/our way of life chose.

Those soldiers are Us. We did this thing. It's the truth; read Milgram and Zimbardo.

[Sydnie]

27. I agree

I didn't mean to make it sound any other way. We have caused this and yet, we have no plan to deal with it. I guess that was my point. They will not do anything to mitigate the changes we have caused in so many of these young minds and hearts.

I know we here, at DU, understand that but what will the general public say and do? Will they make the comparison when the time comes? I highly doubt it.

[patrice]

28. I was upset; thanks for your reasonable response.

I too feel that pull to desensitization; it can be soooooooo depressing, one desensitizes out of self defense.

I taught high school Psychology for 10 years. I truly believe we create the world.

[milkyway]

16. Powerful. It is amazing how much damage the forces of darkness have

done to this country in so short a time.

[tnlefty]

18. I don't have HBO

I'll try to watch when this becomes available. Updates, if you can, would be most appreciated.

[patrice]

23. My apologies, I was going to do updates as I watched, but

it was too involving. I hope you get a chance to see it somewhere. It's very instrctive, how normal most of these folks are.

[SeattleGirl]

20. It's now 9:30 Pacific time, so it's coming on now.

Been waiting to see this.

[patrice]

21. Let us know what you think. n/t

[SeattleGirl]

24. It was quite disturbing to watch, thought I think every teen and adult in

America should be required to watch it. That picture at the end, of Bush signing the Military Commissions Act, was particularly disgusting, as were the shots of the military officer (forgive me, I can't recall his name) getting all those honors, while Karpinski was demoted, and the lower-level military who participated in the torture were imprisoned. I'm not saying they shouldn't have been punished; what they did was wrong. The even more wrong were those above them who ordered and condoned it, and they get off scott free!

I think Rory Kennedy did a very good job with this subject, in bringing together the various parties involved in it, but I hope that people will "get it" that the ones who actually participated in the torture are NOT THE ONLY GUILTY ONES. And I also hope that people will really get the message that what happened at that prison did not follow in any way, shape or form what rules this country has followed (for the most part) prior to Dubya and his evil minions.

I have encountered people who think that this is just fine (the torture), and I always counter with this: The reason we have followed the Geneva Conventions, the reason that we have not always indulged in this practice, is because we want OUR military personnel to be treated well (okay, I could probably find a different word, but I'm a bit sleepy right now) if they end up being POW's. If we don't treat THEIR prisoners well, then we have absolutely no leg to stand on if OUR people are tortured. NONE. ZIP. NADA. That usually shuts them up, sits them back on their heels, and elicits a response like the following: "Whoa! I never thought about it that way." Well, duh!

Overall, it was a great documentary, and I will be urging as many people as I can to watch it.

[Bozita]

25. Whoever said "Rank has its privileges" wasn't bullshitting!

Pisses me off to no end!

[SeattleGirl]

26. Me too, Bozita, me too.

I'm so sick and tired of the privileged, the rich, the "haves and have mores" getting away with things that the rest of us don't. If something is deemed wrong, it should be deemed wrong for EVERYONE, not just those who are too poor, or not the right color. This shit makes me see bugs! (And worse!)

[patrice]

29. I think your point about the consequences to our Troops,

anywhere, anywhen, is the First thing anyone should say to people who think it is okay.

Next in effectiveness to me is that it doesn't work very well. Most tortured People will say anything to get the torture to end and there are a lot of expenses and **crucial** time wasted vetting useless information. There are studies about how ineffective it is.

But the most important point, and hence least comfortable one, is, as you have said, the torturers ARE NOT THE ONLY GUILTY ONES. Obviously the leaders, military, bureaucratic, and political who create the apparatus for torture have special responsibility and are guilty in unique ways, but I think WE, the people of this country are also guilty, even those of us who have been against this war. There are so many millions of ways, "big" and "small", that ALL OF US casually (and even with pleasure sometimes e.g. bullying) dehumanize ourselves and one another, also so many millions of ways that ALL OF US accept dehumanizing authority automatically; WE created this world of ours in which this whole thing, the Invasion of Iraq AND Torture, are possible. What has happened in Iraq IS what the U.S. is.

I think that was Kennedy's point by including Stanley Milgram's research at the end of his documentary. What we're looking at is a nearly universal human trait. He didn't want people to say "Oh! Those monsters! How could they?!?!!!" because those monsters "big" and "small" are us.

[Bozita]

22. NYT's Alessandra Stanley reviews the HBO documentary

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/22/arts/television/22sta...

TV REVIEW | 'GHOSTS OF ABU GHRAIB'
Abu Ghraib and Its Multiple Failures

By ALESSANDRA STANLEY
Published: February 22, 2007

The problem with the Fox thriller “24” is not that it justifies torture but that it fosters the illusion that the American government is good at it.The practices of Abu Ghraib suggest the opposite. The mystery of that shameful episode was not the cruelty of American troops assigned there. After the initial disbelief over the obscene snapshots, their smile-for-the-camera barbarity turned out to be another painful reminder that the banality of evil has no borders.

The real puzzle is why the administration, which argued that the war against terror required extreme interrogation techniques — the kind critics call torture — would then entrust such measures to untrained amateurs.

“Ghosts of Abu Ghraib,” a documentary by Rory Kennedy on HBO tonight, looks up and down the chain of command to examine how and why the abuse took place. It is not a new line of inquiry; a 2005 PBS “Frontline” documentary went over the same ground and also concluded that responsibility for the excesses trickled upward all the way to Washington.

But the raw material never ceases to shock. How is it that a government that took such bold steps to reinterpret the Geneva Conventions and update the rules of combat did not pay closer attention to how its policy changes were carried out on the ground? The Pentagon didn’t even manage to shield the worst excesses from public view.

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