"Reagan was a positive force for change"="Mussolini made the trains run on time."

[Tyler Durden]

ANYONE who says ONE SINGLE SOLITARY positive thing about that Reactionary brain-damaged rich pig "All Hat and no cattle" first of the pseudo-cowboys should be drummed out of the party.

Period.

I remember the Reagan years like it was YESTERDAY. I was in the Navy throughout his entire presidency. I remember the speeches about "...supporting the military..." and then throwing hundreds of millions at "Star Wars" and buying missiles instead of raising military wages or benefits.

I remember the "Supply Side" trickle down neo-Randist BULLSHIT that was the start of the "drown the baby through debt" school of Government.

I remember IRAN/CONTRA and the October Surprise.

I remember the Union Busting ASSHOLE firing Air Traffic Controllers and putting us all in jeopardy when we HAD do fly.

I remember the first of the downsizing of US JOBS called "RIGHTSIZING."

I remember "...ketchup is a vegetable..."

I could keep this up ALL DAMNED DAY, but it's too fucking depressing because of the worst reason of all: Ronald Reagan was the START of the Republican Coup d'etat that continues full force through Gingrich, DeLay and both of the Bush's, and ANY SO-CALLED DEMOCRAT WHO DOES NOT REMEMBER ALL OF THIS SHIT SHOULD BE GIVEN HIS WALKING PAPERS, AND YES, I AM TALKING ABOUT BARACK OBAMA.

NOBODY can name ONE DAMNED THING Ronald Reagan did that was positive for the nation or the world in general.

You can lay MILLIONS of deaths from AIDS in the United States and in Africa at the doorstep of the Reagan Library.
You can lay the groundwork of Saddam Hussein right at the feet of every God Damned monument that the Republican Party wants to raise to this WORST of all presidents.

YES, I said WORST, because WITHOUT Ronald Reagan, there would never have been a George Herbert Walker Bush, a George Walker Bush, a Newt Gingrich, a Tom DeLay. Trent Lott would have been an obscure Southern Senator lovingly stoking his white sheets in nostalgia.

NO. There is NOTHING that a member of the Democratic Party, or a true citizen of the nation should be able to point to and say "...that was something Reagan did that was admirable."

END OF DISCUSSION.

On edit: got my fascist mixed up. MUSSOLINI made the trains run on time.

[dsc]

1. Great post

but Muscilini made the trains run on time.

[Tyler Durden]

3. Sorry, got my FASCISTS mixed.

Consider it changed.

[emanymton]

2. He Died.

.
"... There is NOTHING that a member of the Democratic Party, or a true citizen of the nation should be able to point to and say "...that was something Reagan did that was admirable.""

Oh yea? He died (and I do not mean his hair). So there!!
.

[Tyler Durden]

5. He didn't die soon enough.

1979 would have been very nice, thank you very much.

Dead after his pile of feces Administration just gave the Republicans someone to Canonize.

Out of office he was of more use to them dead: Dying did us no favors.

[Kolesar]

8. Federal block grants were a good idea

States made the funding decisions instead of having all the funding decisions made at a high level of a Washington agency.

[Tyler Durden]

16. EXCEPT that they couldn't use the money for ANYTHING the Fed disagreed with.

REVENUE sharing was egalitarian. Block Grants were just another way to allow reactionary state governments to withhold funding from areas they didn't like politically.

[Kolesar]

17. Reagan funded the Space Shuttle

I am more of a fan of deep space probes, but I liked that Reagan funded the Space Shuttle

[Horse with no Name]

21. Yeah the one with $10k dollar toilet seats?

The Space Shuttle was great...but it was also a very good place to squirrel away tax dollars.

[Tyler Durden]

27. THANK YOU Too!

Reagan Pork Barreled so much money to defense contractors. He Wrote the "book" that Bush uses today.

[Kolesar]

30. US Air Force...eom

[Tyler Durden]

24. The CONGRESS funded the space shuttle.

The argument they used to get Reagan to sign the shit was that Reagan would need it to put arms in space to protect us against the "Commies."

[L. Coyote]

81. Reagan blew up a Space Shuttle killing seven astronauts

George Bush was using the launch of the Challenger as a cover to funnel $100 million in illegal aid to the Contras, and was in Honduras for the dirty deed. There was also a State of the Union speech schedule.

They did not cancel the launch that cold morning for political reasons, even though it was too cold.

Those who made this decision have not answered for it!

[doubleplusgood]

130. the space shuttle was in the works for years before Reagan

I've always thought that part of Reagan's "lustre" is because the space shuttle was first flown during his presidency.

[Usrename]

148. The space shuttle was a stupid program.

It was nowhere near as innovative as the programs that it replaced. The tiles are best thing to come from the whole program.

[Kolesar]

153. Dont tell me

Write to Congress or something

[grizmaster]

167. He only funded the Shuttle to dismantle all the other NASA

programs in the works. The shuttle was his excuse to gut the rest of NASA's budget. raygun set the space program back at least by a decade.

[Dr.Phool]

39. You mean those block grants for job retraining?

That Jeb Bush decided would be better spent elsewhere? I didn't get my training that I was qualified to receive.

[Tyler Durden]

46. VERY good. Exactly my point.

They did the same thing with the Republican Controlled congress in Michigan with Nursing Education.

[LostinVA]

68. No, they were a PACIFIER for taking loads of social money away

And, you couldn't do what you needed to with them.

[Horse with no Name]

4. Obama invoked Reagan

for one purpose only...because the republicans are disenchanted because they don't have a reaganesque candidate and they are sorely in want in one. He wants THEIR vote.
Reagan was a media/political fairy tale that killed.
Obama KNEW that invoking Reagan would flame the very core of the party and he.did.not.care.

[Tyler Durden]

6. I knew that: I'm sick of that man's pandering.

If this guy gets elected, who the hell will he pander to so he can get RE-ELECTED???

The very thought boggles the mind.

[peacock]

159. I know, that´s what´s scary

[EFerrari]

9. Exactly. It might be a politically good move for him

but it also argues a shallowness that I will never be able to get behind.

Reagan was a homocidal thug in Hollywood drag.

[sunonmars]

12. personally i think its a kill campaign manouvre.

[Tyler Durden]

14. I'll have to remember that one!

"Reagan was a homocidal thug in Hollywood drag."

Every time I hear his name I remember that he put HIV research and Global Population Control an entire generation behind.

I hold him directly responsible for the death of at least 2 friends from AIDS.

[EFerrari]

18. My mom was in AA here in CA when he shut down the state's

mental hospitals. So many people were just tossed out on the street and people trying to get sober had nowhere to go. Our phone rang off the hook for months. I was only about 12 but I still remember her and her friends sitting at the kitchen table looking really upset and worried about so and so who now had no access to detox or meds or anything.

[Tyler Durden]

25. MENTAL HOSPITALS!!! THANK you.

We used to have one of the BEST mental health systems in Michigan! One of the best in the NATION, or even the WORLD. They are now facilities MOULDERING and boarded up like the hospital in "Hannibal."

[leftchick]

26. and don't forget his environmental policies

using this thug....



I remember that time very well. It still gives me nightmares

:grr:

[Horse with no Name]

29. Leftchick!!

I really miss your postings...you aren't around much anymore.:(

[leftchick]

49. I am still here

lol! for now anyway. I get yelled at a lot these days. Thank you for the kind thoughts.

:)

[Tyler Durden]

94. I don't yell at you.

I don't even think I've ever IGNORED you, crotchety old man that I am.

[Tyler Durden]

32. How could "that name" even pass Obama's LIPS????

Every time I remember watching that video (and YES, I watched the whole thing), I get a nervous tic in my left eyelid.

[EFerrari]

33. I wonder if Obama is even old enough to remember the Democratic party

when it was still liberal. :shrug:

[BuelahWitch]

150. I'm a year younger than he is

And to tell you the truth, that IS difficult. I vaguely remember McGovern's trouncing in '72. Carter's election four years later is a little clearer, but, good man that he is, he can't be called "liberal."

Here's what I DO remember: about a year or year and a half into Reagan's term, Jimmy Carter was on "Oprah." Many of the people in her Chicago audience were crying, saying they wished Carter was still in office, and talked about how terrible things were now that Reagan had taken over.

Now which of our candidates was living in Chicago in the '80s? Hmmm, let me think...:think:

[NewJeffCT]

59. I remember Mad Magazine at the time

Watt - we worry

[Marie26]

80. And don't forget his effort to destroy legal services for the poor.

There are some Legal Aid attorneys who still can't say his name without a string of curse words.

[Mythsaje]

151. "Remember--only YOU can prevent James Watt."

A Smokey the Bear cartoon that made me LMAO.

[BringEmOn]

146. Hey Obama, here's what Reagan's worshippers think of you...

[peacock]

158. Obama´s a Republican

[cali]

7. Who said your quoted comment?

If it's a quote from Obama, provide a link. Because that certainly isn't what I heard Obama say. Basic honesty really does require a link for quotes attributed to someone.

[sunonmars]

10. Oh come on,

Obama could be talking about beheading mothers in the town square and you'd think he was brilliant.

Huge rose tinted glasses.

[Kolesar]

13. Let the light of peace and brotherhood shine on your day!

[cali]

19. Don't be absurd. I've criticized Obama harshly on:

McClurkin
Appearing at the 700 Club and his comments on women being "prayerful" about abortion
His vote for the energy bill
his support for big coal
his lack of leadership on Iraq
his not speaking out against the repugnant 527 union ads being run on his behalf in NV

That's looking through rose colored glasses? Not even fucking close, dumpling.

Your comment about beheading mothers in the town square is as disgusting and stupid as every other post I've ever seen of yours.

You are full of it, pookie.

[Tyler Durden]

22. Pookie?

You know, when you make silly comments like that, you sort of put a giant eraser on the rest of your post.

You have FORGIVEN him for every one of those issues. Your "criticism" lasts just long enough to pardon him. MCCLURKIN? Don't make me laugh. You called his half-assed distancing a denouncement or an apology.

You're an Obama Partisan, and you can't see ANYTHING he does that makes him as bad as Clinton and sometimes worse.

[cali]

31. I haven't forgiven or excused him on any of those issues, and who the

hell are YOU to tell me what I think? I've factored all the pluses and minuses into my equation to support him. The pluses outweigh the minuses. Not such a complicated thing. And stop asserting false crap without providing a link. You have a very bad habit of doing that.

Oh, and tough if you don't care for my "endearments".

[Tyler Durden]

34. Did you say something, Cali?

Got you on IGNORE.

Why don't you return the favor? That way we don't have to have these conversations.

DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM FOREVER!

[Binka]

84. Jesus Is That Poster Still With Us? I Put "IT" On Ignore When "IT" Had 10 Posts

Just seeing you posts "IT'S" name had me saying :wtf:. You go Tyler good to see you love.

[leftchick]

119. lol!

me too!

:rofl:

[Binka]

121. What A Tool That One Is

:hi: Good to see you!

[Capt. Al]

82. More blind loyalty...

Republicans held fast to their guy, knowing full well what kind of bastard he is and what he has been and continues doing to America. Symptoms of that horrible desease were showing up early but his supporters (enablers) refused to accept it. It could have been stopped early enough and treated but instead, was nurtured along through denial and blind loyalty. In relation to the Democratic side of this same scenario, what is the difference?
Apparently, Obama thinks he can play both sides of the field; gain Republican support without losing Democratic support. The same holds true with Clinton and the DNC in general.
Loyalty is a two way street. Thanks to the Bush regime, we have reached a very critical mass and do not have the time for more Republican strategy or bullshit. It's time for this group to get the fuck outta the way of a true Democratic candidate. If you are convinced by their bullshit, feel-good claptrap then you are a fool. You had better look closely at the facts surrounding the Democratic field of candidates. Look at their resu'me, look at their past votes and their non-votes. This is not a game and you had better get your heads outta your asses.

[Tyler Durden]

96. Welcome to the "Lost Cause."

I know I'm stealing that from the Confederacy, and being a Yankee that's sacrilege, but hey, when you're circling the drain...

[Jamastiene]

161. Well, gee, if you have that many complaints about that

many different things he has done, why do you still support him for president? When will too much be enough for you to wake up?

[EFerrari]

37. Being brilliant doesn't preclude being wrong. n/t

[OneGrassRoot]

44. Now THAT is a brilliant statement. May I use? :) n/t

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[robbedvoter]

35. here's a reference to his book (links)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4087189&mesg_id=4087491
and another
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4090801&mesg_id=4092172
the video is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP1esS0AEzk
Not that you didn't know

[panzerfaust]

65. Here you go

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/17/obamas_reagan_comparison_spark_1.html

"I don't want to present myself <Big O> as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times...I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

To those of us Boomers who have not gotten over ourselves, it seems pretty clear that the above could be condensed to: I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure, I want to present myself as Ronnie Raygun.

Which is why O, and H, are favored by the capitalists over liberal Democrats.

[alteredstate]

15. Could you please provide a link?

Who said "Reagan was a positive force for change"?

[Tyler Durden]

20. Go watch Obama's Video from the weekend.

On second thought:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=85553&mesg_id=85553

AND the whole thing, which in my opinion does not change anything:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=85026&mesg_id=85026
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=84736&mesg_id=84736

There. I did your work for you. Where were you yesterday? This shit was "all channels, all networks."

[alteredstate]

52. Sorry, you're twisting Obama's words. And you know it.

I missed the "fun" yesterday because i was doing volunteer work for my candidate.

[Tyler Durden]

57. No, I'm not.

Reagan citing is a tactic worthy of Lieberman.

Apologize for Obama all you want. I'm not a Clinton supporter either, so you can't use that meme on me.

[laststeamtrain]

23. Definite recommend.

He was the beginning of the far rights's move to the center.

Reagan should only be evoked with disdain by real Democrats.

Another big faux pas by Obama.

[Kolesar]

28. Too bad only a few dozen people will even read this thread...eom

[Tyler Durden]

36. Pisses me off too.

I don't give a shit about recs or post counts.

What I care about is screaming "TRIPE!" when tripe is served.

[Kolesar]

40. I am sure you could write some insightful letters to your representatives

At a fundraiser, I met the candidate for Congress in my district and he wants to meet with me to discuss some electricity issues. You never know!

[Tyler Durden]

48. I've got Bushbot Dave Camp. Waste of time.

I exchanged personal correspondence with him for a year. After he bragged to me in his latest letter about "Defense of Traditional Marriage," I told him to go fuck off.

Literally.

[robbedvoter]

38. Actually, it's almost 300 by now - I just checked

[Kolesar]

41. At least sixty of those views were mine! ... eom

[dmosh42]

42. All corporatists admire each other!.....

Clinton,,,,McCain....Lieberman....Obama.....Circlejerk.......

[Tyler Durden]

58. Even Better. Works for ME. n/t

[Perry Logan]

43. Imagine the shitstorm if Hillary had said any of this.

[robbedvoter]

55. It would have made it on the teevee - fully blown

As it is - only Rachel Maddow covered it on Air America and a very reluctant KO - with complimentary comments to Raygun (by someone else)

[Philosoraptor]

45. Say what you will about Hitler & reagan, they both LOVED their dogs.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. Not true. Mussolini did make the trains run on time. OTOH, it's unfair to Reagan too.

"Mussolini made the trains run on time" is (I think - I'm not sure it's not just an urban myth, but I've never heard it denied) a true statement. "Ronald Reagan was a positive force for change" isn't.

On the other hand, I think one should always be wary of hyperbole. Ronald Reagan was a bad leader, but nowhere near as bad - not by orders of magnitude - as Mussolini, and being seen to imply that he was weakens the case against him by making one look lacking in perspective.

There's an awful lot of ground between "bad" or even "very bad" and "as bad as Mussolini".

[EFerrari]

51. When you drill down to the facts, the statement may be more accurate

than most people know.

I recently learned that no Jews residing in Italy were hauled away until Germany invaded and took charge. The Italians refused to go along with that.

Reagan, on the other hand, was responsible for the torture and deaths of people all over the world.

[Tyler Durden]

62. Just for the record, the Italian Fascists didn't ENTHUSIASTICALLY comply...

...and certainly not in large numbers, but it's sort of a how many jews/commies/homos do you kill before you're considered a mass murderer?

[EFerrari]

63. Far from defending Joe, I'm just pointing out that he didn't have much

on Ronnie.

[Tyler Durden]

54. Don't be a literalist. Clouds the issue.

The point is that if you make a POSITIVE statement about Reagan, it's similar to making a POSITIVE statement about Mussolini, not that they are in any way directly similar.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

64. No, I don't agree. The impilcit comparison between Mussolini and Reagan is invalid.

One could - I'm not sure that I would - argue that there are some people so bad that even pointing out the ways in which they were not unambiguously bad - even though they weren't - is a bad thing.

It does not strike me as an unreasonable claim that most, or at least many, people who praise Hitler's reduction of unemployment are motivated by a desire to defend Nazism in general, and that therefore one should refrain from talking about it.

But if you're going to do that - to say that there are some people so bad that even speaking the truth in their defence shall be considered a sin - then you have to set the bar very, very low indeed, or you're on an extremely slippery slope. Hitler may fall below it; one could argue that Mussolini does. There's no way in hell that Ronald Reagan does. He *did* have some good points, and they should be acknowledged.

Which is not to say that he wasn't, on balance, a very bad thing indeed - probably America's worst post-war president.

[EFerrari]

66. Reagan got people dead here and around the world.

He has no "good points" that make up for the death and destruction he inflicted.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

74. That's a totally different claim to "he had no good points".

NT.

[EFerrari]

77. No, it's not. Some people are and do evil, whether they love their dog or not. n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

79. Yes, it is.

"Ronald Reagan was and did evil" is true.

"Ronald Reagan did not have good points" is false.

That's a fairly major difference between any two statements.

[Tyler Durden]

89. Name one good thing Reagan did...

...MINUS some ulterior motive.

[EFerrari]

115. I can't think of anything he did in public life that was commendable.

He got his start at the Screen Actors Guild, kissing up to McCarthy. What a piece of work he was from the very beginning!

/spelling

[panzerfaust]

73. Neither respected, liked, or had time for DEMOCRACY

Mussolini (claimed to have) invented Fascism (as a system it was actually invented by neo-Hegelian philosopher Giovanni Gentile, but Ben likely did coin the catchy term itself).

Raygun, during his administration, supported the principles of Fascism: The most notable being the fusion of Capital with The State, coupled with malignant nationalism and extreme intolerance and xenophobia.

[EFerrari]

50. Without Reagan, our current torture program wouldn't be so efficient.

Reagan exported torture to Central America via this motherfucker.



And also to South East Asia and North Africa.

He loved torturing colorful people, our St. Ronnie. And, do you remember he compared the "Contras" to our founders? The "Contras" were basically mercs in the pay of our government. They committed attrocities in Nicaragua that are unspeakable with the support of their CIA handlers. The people who live on the Atlantic coast still haven't recovered from that.

Reagan's policy was to organize, fund and support death squads in my family's country of origin, El Salvador. One of my best friends in this neighborhood was kidnapped and tortured for a year during the years of Reagan's terroizing the people of El Salvador. My friend was on the wrong road on the wrong day.

Reagan was a uniter, all right. He united Latin America in grief and horror against American policy.

[xchrom]

53. recommend

[panzerfaust]

56. MUSSOLINI made the trains run on time: NOT

http://www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.asp

No more than Ronnie Raygun brought the "Evil Empire" to its knees.

Good to see that at least one Democratic candidate can 'get over it' and can now see Ronnie for the giant he was (not).

Go O!

[Tyler Durden]

61. I don't get your post at all.

You want to explain, feel free. I'm not one of those that jumps to conclusions if I can avoid it. If you'd rather not, then Go with God.

[NewJeffCT]

70. I think he's trying to say

that the meme that, despite all his evils, at least Mussolini made the trains run on time is not even true. Sort of like how the right likes to deify Reagan for single-handedly beating the Soviet Union with one hand tied behind his back... or that Reagan was a positive force for change.

But, i could be wrong.

[panzerfaust]

75. But you are right

[LostinVA]

71. He's saying that Mussolini DIDN'T make the trains run on time -- it's a myth

[L. Coyote]

60. Of course, Mussolini ACTUALLY made the trains run on time. The Reagan thing is a LIE.

[LostinVA]

72. Actually, he didn't -- it's a myth

[EFerrari]

78. Then Tyler's equation is just that much more true. n/t

[jmowreader]

142. But the trains ran on time when Mussolini was in power

OTOH, the fall of the Berlin Wall, which was basically the end of the Cold War, happened during Poppy Bush's administration—NOT Reagan's!

[LostinVA]

67. GREAT rant, Ty (and I mean rant in a good way)

I can't believe some of the "supporters" on here yesterday defending Reagan. I don't mean defending Senator Obama's remarks. I mean REAGAN. UGH.

[shadowknows69]

69. Proud to K+R

I was only 11-19 through the Reagan years but I was politically aware enough to realize this guy was evil, or worse, stupid and being run by evil puppet masters. He had me constantly sure that my adolescence was going to end suddenly in nuclear fire which probably had a lot to do with my general lack of personal motivation. It was clear as I was entering the job market that the deck had already been stacked against the average American.

[NewJeffCT]

83. Reagan's notes & diaries from his presidency

revealed that he was not as "hands-off" as many had claimed. He was involved in many of the details. While many liked to portray him as a doddering old fool that was used by the evil people around him, he was clearly playing that part on TV.

So, when Lawrence Walsh backed off of recommending impeaching Reagan over Iran-Contra because he thought Reagan was just that - a doddering old fool - he was wrong. And, because of Walsh and Tip O'Neill's errors in judgment on Reagan, we have St. Ronnie being deified by the right: putting his face on Mt Rushmore or the dime, on Reagan airport in DC, etc. He belongs on a lower rung of esteem than Nixon, but he's not there because of this.

[davekriss]

76. Amen, brother!

Kicked and recommended!

[Blarch]

85. Mr. Tyler says he is not twisting Obamas words

Lets take a closer look at the facts, shall wee ? ..

Obamas quote..

"I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times...I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing."

And here are the quotes from Tylers OP...

"Reagan was a positive force for change" ... "...that was something Reagan did that was admirable."

You are talking about Obama, you are putting these words in quotes. Lets be honest now. Google the quote you created and you will get this >>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=TSHA%2CTSHA%3A2006-07%2CTSHA%3Aen&q=%22Reagan+was+a+positive+force+for+change%22&btnG=Search

[Tyler Durden]

88. I suggest you have an agenda as well.

Perhaps you might want to put up an OBAMA avatar.

"Behold, I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"

Am I talking about Obama?

[Blarch]

93. Oh my bad.

I thought your thread was a response to what Obama said. :sarcasm:

[Tyler Durden]

98. Well, Hell.

They way you were talking, ANYTHING in quotes is a quote from Obama.

I have NEWS for you: I don't care WHO they are; when a supposed DEMOCRAT starts talking about the good things about Ronald Reagan, I start looking for a 3rd party to vote for. We already have one Lieberman.

[kelligesq]

86. Right on Tyler- I posted similar yesterday and mod locked the thread saying

"Obama is not a republican".

Dont think mods should take biased position -

Dont you think they should be non partisan while they are working as mods?

[kelligesq]

90. oops, forgot to K & R

:kick:

[Prophet 451]

87. Um, a positive thing about Reagan...

Let's see, um... Damn, this is tough.... He could be personally charming and he was really good at deflecting blame.

Admittedly, that's probably damning with the faintest of praise...

[mnhtnbb]

91. How about responding when asked to list a positive about Reagan...

"I can't remember."

[Tyler Durden]

92. Donald Ian Rankin: name ONE good thing Reagan did without ulterior motive.

You stated he did good things. NAME ONE.

[dionysus]

95. here, have a lude

[Tyler Durden]

97. I miss those things.

One "714" and a Heiniken...

[dionysus]

99. unfortunately i'm too young to have been able to get any of those

:(

[Tyler Durden]

101. Sandoz made REAL LSD 25 in 125 mcg tabs.

They were like inviting Jesus to your apartment for a serious political discussion: Intense and VERY, VERY SPIRITUAL.

[dionysus]

106. holy shit

yeah, access to premium quality stuff like that, not so much for my generation. except for quality smoke. that can be found!!:smoke:

[Tyler Durden]

107. We knew a guy whose dad was in the diplomat service.

He brought us a bottle of 500, seals intact, from Switzerland in a diplomatic pouch.

It was like little "Magic Fingers" in your brain. We used to give a couple away here and there as Birthday presents to close friends.

I was there for the last of the bottle. Each of us 3 got 4 tabs each, so we took them and sat shiva over the empty bottle. We did rock/paper/scissors for the empty bottle as a souvenir: Paul won.

on edit: I should tell you this was in 1973, and I was 20 years old.

[dionysus]

116. another thing you can't beat from the era is the music.

can't to compare to the (mostly) crap thats around now!

[Tyler Durden]

117. If it makes you feel better, today's smoke kicks the old stuff's ASS.

Modern Skunkweed and all of the Dutch variants are positively PSYCHEDELIC compared to the stuff from 1971/72.

[dionysus]

128. talking herb beats arguing about politics, doesn't it?

:)

[Tyler Durden]

131. You got THAT right, sport.

When the shithouse burns down (as I secretly EXPECT it to) I will be in Northern Michigan on 6 acres, with 4 greenhouses, one devoted to a "cash crop," if you get my drift.

[leftchick]

105. lol! that reminds of a friend from my youth

she LOVED ludes. One night we were out drinking (she was under the lude influence) we bellied up to the bar and instead of ordering her usual 7 and 7 she ordered a "714". Omg we laughed!

I am old too. :)

[Tyler Durden]

108. "You know what" on 'ludes was fucking HILARIOUS.

My girlfriend and I could not stop laughing. It was GREAT.

[JCMach1]

100. I agree... for Obama this is one of those inexperienced slips

that show us what is really inside and it's not pretty :(

[La Lioness Priyanka]

102. thank you. he didnt die soon enough.

[LynneSin]

103. Personally I wanted him to live longer and suffer more

:grr:

But I hope the Hell that Reagan finds is filled with the souls of the people who were affected negatively, perhaps dead because of Reagan policies.

That includes the faces of everyone who has ever died of AIDs. Had Reagan acted swiftly on AIDs when it first appeared perhaps there wouldn't be millions and millions of people who died of this horrible disease

[EFerrari]

118. AIDs, death squads, homelessness, Hollywood blacklisting,

He had a million of 'em.

He is directly responsible for not only the war on the middle class but also for the state of our infrastructure. If we'd had the same one we had before he started taking it apart, there would have been a RESPONSE on 9/11.

[IronLionZion]

104. In other news, water is wet.

What, exactly is the point of 100s of Reagan threads? To convince me that he's a bad guy? Who are you trying to convince? Someone has to have been pretty influential to have 100s of threads written about him in a single day on DU. Why the need to give all these examples of how he changed the country?

Saying his changes were bad is liking saying water is wet, the Iraq war is bad, single-payer healthcare is good, pollution is bad, cannibalism is bad, torture is bad, choice is good, etc. These are generally accepted liberal positions and DUers probably unanimously support all of them. Faux outrage. This is our Sista Souljah moment, except we are condemning the worst American president in recent history. Are you going to condemn Mussolini next? Hitler and Stalin too? Don't forget Pol Pot, Idi Amin, and Yahya Khan. Condemnation knows no color.

Find me a DUer who thinks Reagan created positive change. Go ahead. I challenge you.

I watched the entire Obama interview twice and didn't see any love for Reagan.

[Tyler Durden]

109. Whatever you say...

I'm tired of ALL the partisans, not just the Obamoids.

Have fun with it. I just think you should all at least be HONEST with yourselves.

[IronLionZion]

110. Neither Hitler nor Mussolini made the trains run on time

that is an example of propaganda that has still endured even today.

[Tyler Durden]

111. Neither did Reagan do anything Obama should have cited him for.

Again I say, have fun with it.

[IronLionZion]

112. I didn't start any threads on the issue, because it bores me. Have a good day. nt

[Tyler Durden]

113. Yep. Sounds just like the "Young/forget about yesterday/WE can do it" response.

You have no idea how that ANGERS so many of us who FOUGHT LIKE HELL for what Obama's Youngsters see as everyday rights to be taken for granted, as written in rock by MOSES.

I won't live long enough to see the same damned thing happen to YOU, but I will take some solace in knowing that it will happen, as surely as there will be a dawn tomorrow.

[IronLionZion]

122. But what is the purpose of this thread?

Are you taking a brave stance today? Your viewpoint is not only the majority opinion, you have near unanimous support on here. No one is arguing against you. Why are you angry?

I don't take my rights for granted, but I do enjoy and exercise them frequently. We can do more. We need even more rights. We need real change in this country. We a need a political realignment to the left, where American people start thinking that liberal policies are good and sensible. We need majorities in the legislature, governors, and local levels.

[EFerrari]

125. I would be willing to bet that there are many people who really don't know

what an evil man Reagan was or how much destruction he is responsible for. Just because people aren't posting that view doesn't mean it's not out there.

I can't speak for the OP, but Reagan makes me angry because not only did he lay the tracks for Junior but he was canonized in the media as if none of those deaths occurred because of him. As if the union busting he supported isn't affecting the American working class, as if his manipulation of our media hasn't resulted in the propaganda machine we enjoy today.

[Tyler Durden]

132. Saint Ronnie

USS Ronald Reagan
http://www.reagan.navy.mil/news.html

Reagan National Airport
http://www.metwashairports.com/national/

Ronald Reagan Memorial Tollway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Memorial_Tollway

They wanted to build a Ronald Reagan Memorial on the FUCKING NATIONAL MALL
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/09/28/washingtonmayor.ap/

Ronald Reagan Memorial, Eureka College
http://www.city-data.com/picfilesv/picv9364.php

They want to name that new BRIDGE after Reagan
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-smith/the-ronald-reagan-memoria_b_59655.html

I feel like Sam Kinison: AAAAH AAAAH AAAAAAAAAAAH!!! IT NEVER ENDS! IT NEVER ENDS!

[EFerrari]

133. Exactly. I'll stop when THAT stops.

lol

:hi:

[Tyler Durden]

134. I'm afraid you and I shall be VERY BUSY for some time yet to come.

We have TWO living Democratic party Nobel laureates, and they can't stop NAMING shit for Reagan or Bush I.

And we wonder why the aliens won't land.

[BuelahWitch]

149. Didn't they want to put his stupid face on the dime as well?

:grr:

[Rassah]

179. Recent Daly Show mentioned there's a Ronald Reagan Airport in Saudi Arabia

[Tyler Durden]

127. NOW we're on the same page.

But I will tell you that if you think this is supported...sorry. The Obama Camp supports OBAMA, RIGHT OR STUPID.

But you know what? I've spent almost 40 years listening to politicians, and eventually you can spot someone who does not have enough time on the track to get it "right."

I will say that if it was Hillary Clinton, or John Edwards painting a love letter to Ronald Reagan I would react exactly the same way.

I don't like ANY of them, but I dislike Edwards the least.

[LynneSin]

120. ZING!!!

:loveya:

[IronLionZion]

123. Souljah!

nothing except a complete realignment of the political scene, empowering the conservative movement, and building the infrastructure for his party to take and retain power to do the terrible things that they are doing. He was the first neocon president.

[Hissyspit]

140. Plenty of non-fascists have made the trains run on time, anyway.

So it would be an invalid point even if it was true.

[John Gauger]

165. That's what I always thought.

When people say that I always say, "Mussolini was too stupid to make that happen. He made that up to impress Hitler." But everyone else is so certain that it's true.

[personman]

152. *ahem*

"Find me a DUer who thinks Reagan created positive change. Go ahead. I challenge you."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4090672

[Jamastiene]

162. Linky Linky

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4090672

[Orsino]

114. He had some good writers, and could tell a joke.

Other than that, I'll concede his worse-than-uselessness. He was a cancer on America and the world, a symptom of our apathy and jingoism. However, even his worst looks pretty damned good next to *'s abuses.

[hedgehog]

124. After reading your nostalgic memories of all your drug trips,

I have an explanation of why you can't understand Obama's statement but merely go berserk at the mention of Ronald Reagen.




Oh, and by the way, do you remember how tired we all got of listening to WWII vets telling us how they had fought for our freedom and we'd damn well better shut up and get our asses over to 'Nam......

People under 30 are having the same experience now with aging boomers telling them about all the fights they went through and how the younger people owe it to them to have another shot at continuing the same battles with the same techniques.

[EFerrari]

126. No. "we want clarity we want optimism,

we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship" = we want fiction.

Because that is what Reagan gave us, fiction. A clear narrative, an optimistic one as he dismantled the New Deal while giving us a false sense of dynamism. Obama couldn't be more wrong in reality.

Now, his praise of Reagan may get him some crossover votes. That's a different matter.

Eta: I'm still not saying this very well. Reagan did fulfill a need. He appealed to everything that was irresponsible in American culture, that part of us who'd rather hear a good story than deal with messy reality. We're still paying for that.

[Tyler Durden]

129. Clap, Clap, Clap!

Well done.

In this country, we have an infinite capacity to believe any kind of shit someone wants to peddle, as long as it strokes some portion of our ego, or paints the picture we want to see.

[Tyler Durden]

135. That's the difference between you and me.

My grandfather was on JUNO beach. My father designed machine guns for the war. Makes it a little more "immediate."

Oh, and my father the "Rockefeller Republican," although he was pleased with my Military accomplishments in the 80's, was ready to ship me to relatives in Canada in 1971. His words: "They will draft my son to go to that damned meat grinder over my dead body."

[Kolesar]

137. Hmmm

That wasn't very nice.

[robbedvoter]

141. But our "old" stories are relevant, as Bush is Raygun 2.

had Clinton not won in 1992, we'd be farther away on the conservative agenda that Reagan poshed, Bush brought it to fruition. Through stolen elections, getting power over the 3 branches of government, checks and balances gone, Bush accomplished the Reagan dream. There's not one horrible thing you are angry at Bush for that cannot be traced to the sunny optimist". Those who do not learn history are cindemned to repeat it. There are some benefits in listening to ol' codgers.

[Liberal_Dog]

136. Spot On

Excellent post.

[Kolesar]

138. Half the population is under 35, &that half would have been 18 or younger when the prune was pres...

...president. And considering that Reagan really did not accomplish much that relates to modern day life, I would say that playing to the Reagan myth is surely a waste of time.

This is why I think that Obama really isn't all that smart and really hasn't much of a view into US political history. So today, with a moderate degree of enthusiasm, I started to contribute to the John Edwards for President campaign.

I surely don't want Hillary "I is for IWR" to be president of the United States. I think she has been calculating and has taken us "read the newspapers" members of the electorate for granted.

[flyarm]

139. no shit!! thank you!!!...i was a flight crew then and reagan destroyed my union..

and oay for all in the airline industry..and he destroyed so many lives..

don't anyone tell me Ronnie did one damn thing that was good or right..i will get in your face and yell you down !


fly

[ProudDad]

143. Proof there is no God

In the same year:

John Lennon -- warrior for peace killed.

ronny ray-gun -- the bullet bounces off his heart and he lives.

[Tyler Durden]

145. Proof Reagan had a heart of purest stone. n/t

[EFerrari]

156. I used to think that Reagan beat the curse of Tecumseh but

the real curse is that we were stuck with him.

(The curse was that every president elected in a year ending in a zero died in office. Reagan was the first one to beat it.)

[oasis]

144. Obama's holy trinity "Hope, Change and Ronnie".

:hurts:

[McCamy Taylor]

147. Remember Contra-Cocaine? Obama (and now Hillary) could care less about crack babies.

They just want votes, and they do not care how they get them. Gary Webb was right and we all know it. The LAPD busted the CIA, but the case was thrown out because the LAPD used their usual illegal methods (just like with OJ).

When Obama sings the praises of Reagan, he forgets that Reagan/Bush attempted to commit cultural genocide against Black people in the United States after the advances they had made in the 1960s and 70s with their so called "War on Drugs" which was nothing but a "War on Black Folks".

And can Hillary not remember the way that they rolled by women's rights? For shame.

[rucognizant]

154. Yup, & Hitler is.......

responsible for VW, one of the best cars on the road!
I have driven a diesel VW since '81, ( 3 different ones) All 3 were bought used so no car payments, get 50 miles per gallon even when approaching 300,000. on the odometer.......... cost about $1,000. yearly for repairs and maintanance, no computerized, fancy electronics to malfunction, & my current one n '83, I can still get parts for it! It's very stable on the road, great in snow & ice, as well as agile,and if you drive defensively thus anticipating careening out of control SUVs & tractor trailers, safe as well.

[Tyler Durden]

170. And that has to do with REAGAN how?

?

[txwhitedove]

155. K & R

[peacock]

157. Well said, Tyler!

[Jamastiene]

160. Damn, I like you.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you. :thumbsup:

[santamargarita]

163. The Bush Fascists can't even make the trains run on time!

Well said, thanks.

[Rassah]

164. Was Reagan the one...

Who lowered the upper tax bracket from 70+% down to 30+%? I'm kinda young, so don't remember that too well.
P.S. Just trying to come up with at least something that may have been positive. I know Reagan was a total ahole, and mentaly batsh*t insane president.

[Tyler Durden]

169. 28%.

My late father the "Rockefeller Republican" used to BRAG about being in that tax bracket. He used it to donate to COUNTLESS charities and make interest free loans to young members of the community to buy houses and start businesses.

If that was what today's rich PIGS did with their money, I would have no complaints, but with the tax breaks so they can hoard wealth like Midas? Never Happen.

We always knew my dad was the most generous guy we'd ever met, but we had no idea of how far that went until after he died because he never told anyone except his accountant.

[Rassah]

172. Those rich pigs...

Don't exactly stick their cash under the mattress and sit on it. They either use it to buy stuff, which gives people who make the stuff jobs and money, reinvest it into their own businesses, which improves their product/service quality or expands their business, providing more jobs, or invest the money at an interest in other people/corporations, which gives others capital to expand and provide jobs and money, or improve product/service quality of things the rest of us use.
I've heard the "rich pigs sit on their wealth" a few times already. What exactly does that mean?

[Tyler Durden]

173. Your naivete is disturbing, or maybe you're in the wrong place.

I count at least 4 Right Wing talking points in your little note.

Welcome and enjoy your likely short stay.

[Rassah]

174. I'd like to think that I'm not naive, just...

...missinformed. I think of myself as a fairly liberal democrat (especially on social issues), but I have an economic bias in that I have a degree in Business Finance/Economics. They don't teach us about trickle-down economics there, but they dont really cover much from a socialist viewpoint, either. Just the hard science and math. So, being admittedly ignorant on this specific subject (all I have seen is "trickle-down doesn't work" and rich greedy pigs sit on their wealth" without specifics on the subjects), could you point me to some places that may explain this to me? Please?

[Tyler Durden]

175. How old are you?

Did you live through the gas crises? Did you experience the disastrous recession of 1979? What YOU need is a little schooling in Government Studies and History.

Whenever the Poor/Rich gap exceeds a certain point for more and holds it (and this happened here in 1776, France in 1789, Russia in 1917, Germany in the 20's), the Social/Political structure starts to disintegrate.

You can track tax rates and the rise in the debt/deficit. You can track the increase in gap between rich and poor and the rise in debt/deficit. Do you REALLY see the investment in STOCK PAPER as being PRODUCTIVE??? Do you REALLY see the lack of business and public infrastructure investment as evidence of the monied classes putting their cash BACK into the nation?

You talk about "Business Finance/Economics" then you admit your ignorance of the Reaganomics Debacle...your "degree" followed by your "...explain this to me? Please?" is offensive. If you have learned nothing but the Republican Economics of the boardroom, I suggest you go back to school, and quickly, since the coming failures in the system will not be explained by your Economics of the Elite.

[Rassah]

178. I'm not old enough...

...to remember those things. Nor was I even in USA until 1989. I'm an ex-Soviet immigrant. My age is irrelevant (very old people can still be ultra-conservative republicans, after all), but I do freely admit that I am as of yet inexperienced and uninformed; especially regarding this.

I am very well aware of the poor/rich gap. More specifically, I am very aware of the importance of the existence of the middle class. I don't think it matters if some people in a country are making hundreds of thousand times more money than the median income, as long as there is a very strong middle class. Destruction of the middle class is what has led to a lot of totalitarian, fascist, dictatorial, and communist regimes. I strongly believe that it is the government’s role to maintain said middle class by providing access to education, a set of safety nets (SSI, some welfare, etc), and a strong infrastructure. I VERY strongly believe in government's responsibility for strong infrastructure, including transportation, power, water, education, security, etc. Without those, no amount of economics and free-market capitalism will work, since capitalism can't sustain itself without infrastructure. Also, most of infrastructure is either de-facto monopolistic, or completely unprofitable, and is why it should be run by, or regulated by the government.

I have heard of the correlation between the things you have mentioned, however, it was never mentioned how the two are related. Which causes which to change, and why, are important factors, without which the simple fact that they both move at the same time is irrelevant. Decline in sea pirates has an inverse relationship to an increase in global temperatures, after all. I believe investment in anything we give value to is productive, be it stock paper, paper money (fiat, not backed by anything, as in US$), or even videogame money. I am not expert enough to claim to know what the cause of the lack of business and infrastructure investment is due to. I would guess that lack of infrastructure investment is due to lack of money in government (either lack of tax revenue, or waste of money on other programs), or due to incompetence and/or unwillingness of elected individuals (i.e. Republican congress and state representatives). Lack of business investment, or at least reinvestment, is possibly due to lack of free capital in our markets, due to the current credit crunch; at least for some businesses. For others, there is plenty of reinvestment. Yet others are simply investing their money elsewhere, and I don't know of any good ways to force them to invest it here.

I apologize if my post came out as offensive. I was entirely sincere in my statement, but perhaps did not explain myself enough. I do have a degree, and was taught specifics of how economics, securities markets, and corporate finance works, but from a standpoint that would allow me to work in a business, analyze some current trends in the economy, collect information from accountants and sales departments, and build fancy, complex Excel sheets which would give estimates on how the company will look in the future, and whether it should invest in the newly hatched ideas of its strategic operations department. At no time was I taught anything about supply-side economics, Reaganomics, or socialist programs. At most, our economics teacher explained and proved on paper that raising the minimum wage does not damage the economy or kill jobs, and that people who claim this are very misleading (it kills work hours, not jobs, but that simply means that a person who used to have to work two jobs for 15+ hours a day can now get by on a single 8 hour a day job). My school will not teach me the things discussed here. I suspect no other university will either, since this is not a part of the standard business degree. Which is why I sincerely asked, and fearing I may be considered rude for doing so, added "please."

[Tyler Durden]

180. One must be a little CAREFUL in how they phrase things.

A BUSINESS degree will teach you about BUSINESS. It's little like trying to be a doctor after going to law school, but to ask for an education in Reaganomics or in the failure of the Supply-Side when you come from an education that praises both seems disingenuous.

I cannot educate you as to my experiences in politics, studies of Government, and History since 1968.

Relationships that correlate numerous times over decades can claim the proof of logic: Occam's razor states that the simplest explanation is likely the correct one, and that a difference that makes no difference is no difference. When one studies History and Government, one can see this correlation in Ancient Greece, in Rome, in the Italian City-States, in the Hanseatic League, in the Mercantile system. The roots of our problems are deep, just like theirs, and cannot be dismissed with modern Business Finance; example? The sale of the War Bonds supporting the American Revolution to the wealthy at less than 10 cents on the Dollar by Alexander Hamilton and his supporters.

You see the problem here? You can't start touting the lack of a wide range education as if it was a virtue, and use its tenants to support argument.

Start by REALLY READING "Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. Follow that with "The Federalist Papers". Google Mercantilism, The Corporation in History. Research any sources that show causes of the American Civil War. Google any sources of information related to Wealth Gap vs Historic Political System Stability.

That's a start. If you are truly sincere about this, then you have a lot of reading to do.

[Rassah]

181. Thank you...

... I was googling things last night, but with this topic, just putting it into a search would only give me people's opinions, without explanations. I will google and read up on the topics you suggest.

[grizmaster]

166. K&R why would anybody praise the war criminal raygun?

[grizmaster]

168. K&R

[opihimoimoi]

171. Reagan was a LABOR KILLER....PATCO was an example to LABOR

[B Calm]

176. It's Obama use of the word POSTIVE when referring to Reagan that sickens me

[helderheid]

177. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours