Corporate America and the Neocons are a symptom, not the AUTHOR, of America's woes.

[TheMadMonk]

The true authors are the people themselves.

• People who will vote their own prejudices, regardless of the actual harm that their choice might do them in the short or long term.
  
• People who, whilst the good ole US of A is kicking arse and taking names, will vote for said US of A to continue doing so regardless of cost.
  
• People who will vote in the interests of national, or personal greed. Even when the perceived gain is an illusion which costs more to achieve than will (or could possibly) ever be seen in the form of dividends which devolve to them or to the nation as a whole.
  
• People who will vote to cut the throats of their fellow citizens, rather than see those fellow citizens receive what they perceive is a free ride. And further will vote to cut their own throats to protect themselves from disaffected would be "freeloaders".

I would be very, very surprised if as much as 10% of the population really "gets it" and understands that the proper purpose of government is to achieve the greatest good for the greatest number and that to achieve this end, a certain amount of personal sacrifice is absolutely necessary.

Of the rest, a huge percentage for whatever reasons, chose to let others make the choice for them, and virtually all of the remainder to a greater or lesser degree vote their greed and hatreds, choosing at best, only to vote against the greatest harm to the nation, whilst still attempting perpetuate the ridiculous idea that: A man must make it on his own merit or fall by the wayside.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

1. How So?

You stated: "A man must make it on his own merit or fall by the wayside."

Why is this so wrong, to insist that our fellow man be responsible for their own actions? Why must I be forced, at the point of a gun, to pull another man's weight, and how is that right? Because some bureaucrat believes my money is best spent elsewhere? Because I am somehow responsible for another man's actions?

Please, enlighten me.

[sendero]

2. There is no way to enlighten people like you...

... if you are under 30 or so you might eventually enlighten yourself as you figure out that life doesn't work like the right-wing noise machine says it does, or you may go to your grave thinking that social Darwinism works.

One thing I'm really really looking forward to, a bunch of dumbasses such as yourself are about to find out just how good a job they've done pulling themselves up from their own bootstraps as they find out they don't own much of anything, the bank does and they find out what it's like to struggle.

Bon appetit.

[Echo In Light]

4. Yeah. The repub/corporate way is all based on greed and NIMBY

It goes beyond not caring for your fellow man and into a macho area which actually gloats over others misfortune.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

7. Really...

Where, pray tell, did I say that I do not have compassion for the plight of my fellow man? All I said is that it ain't the goddamn government's job. I donate around 5% to charity, and volunteer here and there. I'd donate more but I'm not exactly in a position to do so as a college student. Unlike many of the entitled pricks I know, my mommy and daddy(daddy didn't pay child support, actually) couldn't afford to pay for my college, nor did they give me a car. I have a roof over my head while in school and for that I am grateful, for I know tonight many are not so lucky.

The world isn't Robin Hood, either. Stealing is stealing even if it's from the rich to give to the poor.

[Echo In Light]

8. It boils down to philosophy, which boils down to what "values" the prevailing ideologies promote

Every "ham & egger" conservative has that same humble roots jive they espouse, and I'm sure many of them actually believe what they're saying. The broader point alluded to here is that within a mass society, there's a need for social safety nets as for one reason or another, there will always be those who can't/don't/won't "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps." Naturally, vested interests, coupled with common people's selfishness, will attempt to trivialize that problem. Our system encourages removing those social safety nets based on this supposedly pragmatic sensibility...yet these same systems condone all sorts of corporate welfare/malfeasance and military spending which completely contradicts the propaganda used to justify our not caring about the plight of our fellow man.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

16. Perhaps we just don't "understand" each other.

I do care about my fellow man, I just don't like being coerced into "giving". I think welfare of any kind is in the end, counterproductive, rewarding failure rather than success and giving no incentive to companies or individuals to "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps". I also find the current state of affairs with respect to our military presence in virtually every country on earth to be an appalling waste of resources and worst yet demonstrates a total lack of respect for the sovereignty of other nations.

The government's job, atleast in my mind, is to sit back and act essentially as a referee, making sure no individual or entity violates the rights of another. At the present they are interfering way more than they should. The two main problems as I see it are that they spend and promise money that isn't there, and they continually get us into fights we have no business being in. I guess I just don't understand how MORE government interference is going to help the situation any.

Though I suppose that's just giving the corporations an opening further enslave us? :eyes:

[TheMadMonk]

20. Enjoy watching your children/spouse dies through lack of affordable healthcare.

Waxed cardboard is waterproof. Remember this free advice when when your employer discovers he can have your job done more cheaply by a twelve year old in China.

Don't forget to abandon your parents to the elements once their productivity falls off.

And enjoy your brief stay.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

27. Oh... k...

Just because you can open your mouth, doesn't mean you should.

Try atleast thinking about your point before spewing forth asinine comments.

[IsItJustMe]

18. Your sad, nuff said.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

28. How So?

With the exception of Echo, the only "arguments" I've heard from anyone have been either ad hominem or nonsensical.

I guess the depth of arguments here usually amounts to circle jerking while singing Kumbaya? :P

[WinkyDink]

53. No, that would be YOU reading Ayn Rand.

[two gun sid]

49. Who did pay for your college, then?

[fasttense]

5. The truth is the neocons and repukes do not believe "A man must make it on his own merit

or fall by the wayside."

If they did, why would they give huge benefits and pay offs to corporations and their buddies? Why would they purge out of the government anyone who doesn't agree with the bushes? Why would they bailout financial firms with reductions in interests rates (mortgage holders get no such reductions) at the expense of the value of US dollar. Why would they break the law and protect others who break the law? Why would they torture people? Why would they constantly tinker with government to give their buddies the benefits of an entire nation's wealth? How is that allowing a man to make it on his own merit?

The repukes talk a good game but their actions speak a different language. They believe that the uber wealthy and corporations should be the ruling elite. That anyone who is in power should be able to do anything, and I mean anything from sexually molesting small children to shooting someone in the face. And because they rule, they should get all the welfare, all the contracts, all the tax cuts, all the national wealth.

A more apt description of what the repukes do is "A man I agree with, who is my buddy, who does as I tell him, who is loyal to me above God, country and that silly little Constitution, can make it on his merit (with a little help from the government). Everyone else should suffer."

[Echo In Light]

6. Well put. I just call em FASCISTS...but they do get by with a little help from...

The so called "oppositional" party. Divide and rule.

[TheMadMonk]

21. Missed the other half of that. Blame midnight posting.

If you can grab it/take it and hold onto it, it's yours.

[Orsino]

46. Right. They mean that *you* must make it on merit and luck, if you can...

...while supporting *them*.

[MH1]

12. Because we all start with different advantages and disadvantages, and have different opportunities

It's called luck.

Some are born dirt poor into dysfunctional families, others are born to wealth and dysfunctional families, others (the truly lucky ones) are born into families with enough wealth to do but also good parenting skills and access to great opportunities.

Do you think we should have a 100% estate tax so that all of us (at least once our parents passed) would be starting at roughly the same point? And then in theory at least we could assume a person's outcomes had something to do with "merit"?

I'm actually all for expecting "personal responsibility" from people but you have to first acknowledge and mitigate the forces that are beyond the person's control.

Oh and also, there is this crazy notion that we live in a "Christian" society. Maybe you don't agree with that, but enough people claim to that they ought to start acting like it.

[Echo In Light]

14. Yeah, that last line: zing

[IsItJustMe]

17. You do not live on this planet all by yourself Sir. All great religions are based on the eternal

truth that you are your brother's keeper. And if you can't see that, then there is nothing I can say that will change your heart.

[lildreamer316]

26. So am I to assume you are not a Christian?

Because a Christian believes in helping those less fortunate than themselves.

[Touchdown]

30. Somebody pointed a gun at you?

Who did? Or was it just one of those hyperbolic euphemisms that you "hard working Americans" like to use all the time when you can't justify how you benefited from being a US citizen without earning it?

Taxes, welfare, infrastructure, safety nets and the rest are all dues you have to pay for being a member of the country club we call The USA.

If you don't want to pay taxes, nobody says you have to. Move to NIcaragua, Afghanistan or some other libertarian paradise that doesn't require you to. You want to live here? You pay your dues (taxes).

[OzarkDem]

51. And why must I pay for another vain man's useless war?

Why must I pay for a greedy corporation to ship US jobs overseas or pollute my environment?

I'm forced to pay the cost of those things with my tax dollars. Why can't the insane leaders obey the rules and use diplomacy instead of endless expensive wars, just so they can make a killing in oil?

Why can't coroprate leaders take responsibility like the rest of us for supporting our country and making it a save and clean place to live?

[WinkyDink]

52. You better hope you don't become incapacitated in that Libertarian Utopia of yours.

[Echo In Light]

3. "Selfish, ignorant Americans = Selfish, ignorant politicians"

Incendiary rant from George Carlin:

The politicians suck? No, the public sucks. Garbage in, garbage out. It's what our system produces. If wrong, then where are all the "bright people of conscience" stepping forward to lead the way? They don't exist here. They're all too busy standing in line at the mall, picking their ass, reaching into a fanny pack to get out a credit card to buy sneakers with lights in them.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4117376351028794150&q=george+carlin+the+public+sucks&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[pretzel4gore]

9. perhaps....

the seed that falls in the desert can be anything; but it never sprouts, so debating its genomes just waste/time. But change has been happening in the desert, and to the seeds... power does corrupt, and modern world is awesomely powerful. Example- you can murder a million people in broad daylight and 'noone' knows about that. Where does this power come from?
History is not bunk, but it's also anti-myth, if one wants to learn from it. And history proves clearly that western democracies are not majority rule unless the majority is passive regards its own fate- and passive is not negotiable! Fictions are large part of how our society works; wolves and killer whales and gorillas were never monsters, but generation were taught that they were! Why is pot illegal? Could it have anything to do with the drug, booze and textile industries killing their competition (hemp was once among the largest farm crops in the country) agravated by white racism? Who killed the electric car? (the Model T was immediately converted/built as battery powered vehicle)...In fact, we have no idea how rich the story of electric car is, cuz, well the powers that be don't WANT YOU to think about it, cuz it's all about oil and power benefitting certain people. Did you know that it's estimated that 20 percent of the 'cowboys' in America's west were black? Did you know there were pre 'columbian' African campsites excavated on the Brazil coast, with steles from West Africa still standing today? Columbus was only unusual in that he brought disease, and planned to nazi style exterminate any people found in 'new lands', yet myth has made the ungodly pervert a hero. There's a documented case of North America Indians being shipwrecked off coast of Holland in 11th century; how many have even heard of that? Or the fossil record of the bison herds which show the herd were 20 million range for thousands of years until about 16th century, when suddenly, inexplicably, they shot up to 100 million by 18th century, when settlers complained it often took a week for a herd to pass by! History ignores that it was after columbus in 1500 that the Amerindian population went into tailspin- researchers argue that between 50 as many as 125 million people simply disappeared from the Americas. Maybe the fiction the land was 'empty' for colonists needs the lil ole lie to work?
There a 15 thousand Bill Gates just in Haiti alone...
Jack the Ripper was id'd in 1888, when John Druitt was pulled outta Thames river: his family told police he was insane, and probably killing the streetwalkwers; yet look at thousands of books, entire industry based upon the fiction (which hardly struck Victorian English as a good idea to admit an upper class aristocrat was butchering homeless women- what harm could be caused by hiding the truth in the police record? After all, the deed was a low class one, typical of the East End London blacks, and why should gentlemen get stuck with the blame just because one of 'ours' had mental breakdown? it's not fair...)
One could spend all day refuting the simplistic view of history, but it take lotsa work- look at the ripper case and try untangle the obvious ...look at the JFK murder and give Lee Oswald back his good name (the guy was a government ONI agent ON DUTY ferchrissake when he was set up by his own bosses!) Try prove that!
It's easier to drink the kool aid...

[Triana]

10. A corprat-owned gov't seeks to achieve the greatest good for the FEWEST...

...number and to achieve this end, a GREAT amount of personal sacrifice, personal wealth, opportunity, and CONTROL of our own country and our own lives is TAKEN from the rest of us and put into the privatized corporate coffers for THEIR wealth and benefit.

According to your definition (and I believe it is accurate) - this is exactly BASSACKWARDS of the way a Democratic Republic system of gov't is SUPPOSED to work.

And Repigs and "Democrats" who've been bought into that system are guilty. LOOK AT THEM - and just LOOK at the numbers of oblivious half-asleep voters who are supporting them. ARE WE BETTER THAN THAT?

Nope.

I agree with you that likely much less than 10% of the population understand that or even cares about it. How people don't GET that is beyond me. Sure, the lamestream corprat-owned and controlled media won't tell the whole story - THEY are part of the problem.

But there IS the internet and there IS the concept of curiousity and willingness to look beyond what the idiot-tube feeds the watching /listening public every day.

And there IS the concept of looking beyond something besides "me me me me me me" - not that I expect many Americans to grok that.

[Echo In Light]

13. Anti-intellectualism, apathy, depoliticization: all part of cultural indoctrination

This is how, as we're seeing, Americans are willing to buy into the idea of a corporatist "dem" who will serve as a vehicle for "change." Amazing...esp as you point out the unprecedented access many have to all sorts of info via the internet.

[Triana]

15. Yep. It's quite a large sucking sound....as our country floats down..

...the corprat shitter with the D and R turds helping the process along.

The system the plutocracy uses is similar to the machinations of a psychopath - a psychopathic way of indoctrinating a populace into allowing itself to be raped of its very essence for survival and thinking that's OK or even normal.

It ain't.

[noiretextatique]

11. agree 100%

thanks for the post.

[formercia]

19. So, why corporate welfare?

"A man must make it on his own merit or fall by the wayside."

So why tax breaks, grants and thousands of lobbyists hanging about like a bunch of street beggars?

Can't the corporate person-hoods make it on their own?

[newspeak]

22. well, let's argue for selfish interest

by helping others, I help myself. Let's look at that perspective. If there are more government programs for schools, I reap the benefit of having trained people who will eventually help me (doctors, lawyers, social workers, etc...) Those that I sponsor with my hardearned money, I may one day enjoy their musical or artistic creations. If I help poor families by giving them shelter, food and training, I may keep them from one day becoming so hard up that they rob me or with training they may some day earn a living with a job, thus becoming a productive citizen. There are senior citizens today wondering if they can pay for their meds or doctor visits, I may one day be in the same predicament. These are people who have worked hard their whole lives. I may lose my job and be destitute one day-there may not be two or three jobs for me to work to keep a roof over my head or put food on the table. What will I do? Oh, I know I'll pull myself up by the bootstraps, me and millions of others as the economy goes down the shit hole. I would rather the government, that I pay taxes, help communities and our infrastructure, than giving it to war profiteers. Billions of OUR money goes unaccounted in Iraq and someone is actually worried that the government may help some poor person.:eyes:

[OMGWTFBBQ]

29. I totally agree, actually.

Welfare of any sort is counterproductive in the end, it's one thing to have programs to get people into the work place it's another to subsidize failure.

[Touchdown]

31. It's not counterproductive. It depends on what the end is.

Social welfare helps the poor for job training, health care, etc. so that they will eventually become citizens who will be productive and contribute themselves to society.

Subsidizing failure only occurs where corporate America is concerned. Witness MBNA, Citi Bank, and 30 years ago, Chrysler. Helping a poor, single mother down on her luck is helping her and her children live. That's something I would never consider counterproductive, no matter how calloused a person I become.

Is this really how you see human life? That we are bred to toil our lives away from birth to death? That we should emulate the lives of bees and ants, with a singular purpose, to "succeed" whatever the Hell that means? To serve, and be a slave to a corporate machine (or corporate ant hill serving the queen) all in exchange for a little bit of money that we could buy a silly, useless toy with... like a Garmin or iPhone? Love, beauty, music, art, poetry, adventure, enlightenment, creativity. These are the things that make life worth living. Productivity, hard work are nice attributes to be sure, but they are mostly Corporate America's buzzwords to get idiot selfish college students who watch South Park too much to buy into serving them.

Then... after 20 years out of college, half of your life is gone and you haven't written a sonnet, traveled the Amazon, learned to play guitar or seen your wife for the real inside beautiful woman she is. All your dreams are gone at 40 because you have too little time left to devote to them, because your employer says they need you to work for 60 hours in order to be a "team player". You need it, because you have a mortgage, health insurance to keep up (and in America, you don't deserve to be healthy, or live unless you have a job. That's why health insurance is tied to employment) and so many other necessities in life you put on that credit card. So be a slave for 20 hours so they can extort your 40 hour paycheck, and die unfulfilled. At least you'll never be considered "unproductive".

[TheMadMonk]

40. Because what is being done for corporations is not WELFARE...

...even if we choose to use that convenient but utterly inaccurate label. It is people/entities with the power to take, grabbing all that they can whilst there remains something to steal.

[formercia]

44. Someone gets it.

I wish everyone else would.

[Rosemary2205]

23. I TOTALLY disagree.

There is a small international group of wealthy elite who control the choices we can make. We want to believe the choice between a D or an R is a huge choice but it's really very minute in the grand scheme of things. We little people in the US of A might get a few extra pennies from a D admin, over an R admin, but worldwide the overall picture stays exactly the same.

Eventually the international elite will be done sucking the life out of us and move on.

[newspeak]

24. who knows?

maybe that's the plan all along. Bankrupt the treasury with trumped up wars, thus stealing resources for multi-national corporations, while bankrupting us-then sell the commons (or our resources to the highest bidder)-depleting our resources and leaving us totally bankrupt.

Remember the film Independence Day? Those greedy aliens that were going to suck the earth dry of its resources. When watching that film, I laughed and thought we don't need no stickin aliens, we already got some greedy corporate locusts here.

[TheMadMonk]

36. And there are quite significant international groups, like entire nations....

...who refuse point blank to listen to the honeyed words of that wealthy elite. And to the average American they are evil incarnate, because the average American does listen and choses to believe what he hears.

I am not sure how you can totally disagree with something, when it is abundantly clear that you have absolutely no idea of what it is that you are actually disagreeing with. The letter which follows a politician's name matters not in the slightest. D's, just like R's vote their prejudices, hatreds and fears, different one perhaps, or exactly the same ones, with a qualifier that somehow makes it all right: "He's a nice enough bloke. For a black man."; "Of course he's equal, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one";

Even the most totalitarian regime survives only through the will or acquiescence of the people they rule.

[Uncle Joe]

25. I agree in part, but at this point ,

corrupted dysfunctional institutions such as the corporate media, are actively working to hinder the "authors of America's woes" from rewriting their story. They paint reality all to suit their own corporate agenda, and the true artists or people can't see a blank canvas anymore, it's already been painted over for them, this leads to disaffection and feelings of helplessness by the people, "what's the point if the system is rigged"? and the corporate media feed this disaffection by dumbing down the people to their lowest common denominator with shiny baubles instead of informing and lifting them up to see the light with the import of true substance. There are exceptions in the media, but they're few and far in between.

I view the corporate media as the *Matrix and today they're primary job is to maintain the status quo, which requires the people to stay asleep to their true reality. The upshot is, only the powerful and mega wealthy can own these one way mega-horns and at this point they're only concern is maintaining power at all costs and they've become far more than a symptom.

I see two possibilities for this situation to change, one is promising, that would be the growing power and influence of two way communication such as the Internet, thereby allowing the people to share their voices and ideas with the world in hopes of lifting each other up and bringing out our better angels.

The other possibility is catastrophic, relating to environmental collapse and the break up of society or civilization as we know it, if not extinction of the species.

I believe the corporate media, slandered and libeled the primary political leader or champion on the cutting edge of both of these issues for the very reasons I've stated. This is also why they played down the importance of the Presidency to those people still addicted to getting all of their information from them in 2000 by trying to turn it in to American Idol. Who would you rather have a beer with?

*See movie for details.

[TheMadMonk]

37. Of course they are actively working to hinder.

However, they can only do so, because the people choose to listen; Choose to be distracted by the distractions waved before them; And actively avoid educating themselves as to what is really going on: because it's too hard; because they can't make a difference; because it would cause them to move outside their comfort zone; because doing anything would mean making a personal sacrifice.

We here and a plethora of people elsewhere have done the hardest yards, digging out, confirming and collating "THE TRUTH THEY DON'T WANT THE PEOPLE TO KNOW." and the people repay us and vindicate them, by refusing point blank to look.

How many threads have we all seen where one of our number crow that finally, after 5, 6, 7 years of unrelenting effort, they have finally convinced one single relative, friend or workmate, that some truly bad shit is going down all around them? How many? How damnably few?

These are not victories except in the most minor of senses. They are testaments to just how hard it is to get almost anyone to look beyond their own hatreds, fears, and prejudices and to see the big picture.


Of course the corporate media libeled and slandered. They do it to any who might potentially threaten their ascendancy. AND THE PEOPLE LISTENED.

[Uncle Joe]

58. The people living in the Matrix,

don't know they're in the Matrix, they're reality has been skewed. That's a large part of the reason as to why you have women starving them selves to death, because of the powerful images they feel necessary to live up to. You can tell a woman she's beautiful just as she is all day long, but the images are what dominate, their perception., anorexia and bulimia can be tied to the power of images on television, and to a lesser degree magazines. The same holds true for men, that's why Kenny Rogers looks nothing like he did before and why steroids are so much in vogue.

I would call it national mental illness promoted by the corporate media, whether intentional or not. And if you're a child growing up watching T.V., television literally becomes part of who you are, particularly those children growing up under one parent house holds without the time and ability to monitor what their child views while the parent is at work.

The upshot is, if you're brainwashed, you don't know you're brainwashed.

[newspeak]

32. I wish to add one final comment

From sociology 101, there are three ways to keep the masses out of the work force: 1. welfare 2. further schooling 3. prison
You have a depleted work force in this country because of outsourcing, which do you truly wish to choose? I'll go for 1 and 2--but in reality what's happening is number 3.

We have one of the highest prison populations in the world--got it? IN THE WORLD. Why? Here is another burgeoning industry--privatizing the prison system is one of the worst things to happen in my opinion. We have plenty of trained work force, just ask some of the people on this board who have had to train their replacements--those who took lower wages usually coming from another country. For years and years we have had it shoved down our throats about those welfare queens--I've had friends that have had to go on welfare, all got training and jobs--yes, there are some who work the system, but you don't throw all under the bus for a few!!!! As decent jobs become more scarce, maybe some should rethink their position.

Also, Salt Lake Tribune had an article on it's front page while I resided there, about the number of state workers who had to have food stamps to survive. Now, Utah is a right to work state-some of those workers must provide for their families and cannot do it with their wages.

[TheMadMonk]

39. Oh I'm well aware of your prison system.

And its disfunctionality is nothing new. And for decades the people have chosen to perpetuate it, because they are told it is making them safer and they CHOOSE to believe it despite all evidence to the contrary.

I am aware of how fucked your labour relations system is, and the people allow(ed) it to be foisted upon them, because they have been told, the alternative is nothing at all, and they choose to believe that too.

I am also aware of pilots for major airlines who can't get by without food stamps. And where is the outrage? Nowhere that matters, because the people are only interested in the cheap airfares that cutthroat competition gave them. The people have taken a hand in the demise of industry after industry, because they care only for the short term advantage to themselves, and fail (or flat out refuse) to see how they are cutting their own throats in the long term.


Corporate America and its creatures might well have penned the outline, but it's the people who fleshed out the horror story that is the United States of America.

[arendt]

33. Right, I voted to have Ollie North and the CIA bring all that cocaine into America...

I voted to have the press give George H.W. Bush a free pass on Iran Contra, leading to his subsequent election. I voted for Ed Meese's crooked Justice Department to avoid noticing anything illegal going on in the Reagan administration, starting with the release of the Iran hostages on Innauguration day. I voted for Cheney and Rumsfeld to sell all those weapons to Saddam Hussein.

There has been a concerted campaign by The Mighty Wurlitzer a.k.a. the Corporate Media (a wholly owned subsidiary of the CIA) to roll back the changes legislated by LBJ since the day Nixon got into office.

Your argument is akin to the "its all the fault of the people who bought those sub-prime mortgages". The people who put the policies in place and lied about them get off scott free in your analysis.

Bunk.

arendt

[TheMadMonk]

35. You may not have, but by refusing to actually educate himself on the issues...

...your neighbour certainly did. And by holding your nose and choosing the lesser of two evils, instead of turning off your TV and screaming: "I'm as mad as Hell. And I'm not going to take it any more, you gave power his prejudices and fears.

Perhaps I do you a disservice and you have screamed yourself hoarse, but tragically for your nation there are not enough screaming along in concert.


That concerted campaign could not possibly get off the ground if the people of America refused to give it credence and refused to agree.


And I do blame a good many of those burnt by the sub-prime collapse. All those who; bought at the top of the housing market; borrowed to their limit at the bottom of the interest rate cycle; and banked on perpetually increasing property values to cover their bet. Stupidity times three. You bet I blame them.

In no way do I absolve the banks and other lenders who made it possible for people to indulge in such stupidity, but at the end of the day each individual is responsible for the consequences his own choices, no matter what any other entity might do to make it possible to make those choices.

Tanstaafl. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. But try to convince the average American consumer of that whilst he still has "room" on his credit card for yet another unnecessary frippery.


"WHAHHHHHH!!!!!!! It's not my fault. They made/let me do it."

Now that's bunk.

[arendt]

41. And, that leaves me what option?

Should I dump on the illiterate masses?

Should I berate myself for not having worked harder?

Your scenario is nothing but projection and demonology. "THEY" did it. "THEY" are unworthy.

How do you distinguish your approach from the garden-variety, self-righteous laissez faire right winger?

arendt

[TheMadMonk]

42. Buggered if I know. Quite possibly leave the country.

Because I am very very afraid that there is no restoring the US to it's former glory. Hell it's former glory is a big part of the problem. What did the rest of the world do to deserver the United States and it's "mine, mine, mine" way of doing business?


How do I distinguish my approach from the garden-variety, self-righteous laissez faire right winger?

How do you find that in what I wrote? I believe in safety net welfare. Free health care. Pretty much everything the average right-winger is against.

What I am not for is people who of their own free will make patently impossible financial choices and then turn around and try to put the blame on whoever or whatever made it possible for them to make that impossible choice.

Yes there are sometimes those who have no choice but to go heavily (even impossibly) into debt because of circumstances beyond their control, perhaps because of illness in the family, or some other disaster. But who's fault is that? Once again, a large part of the responsibility devolves to the people. Those who time and time again, chose to believe the lie that welfare takes from their pockets and puts THEIR PRECIOUS MONEY in the pockets of freeloaders.

[Smith_3]

34. Right on. If I could recommend, I would. nt

[Jed Dilligan]

38. I blame politicians, not the people

smug assholes using the ignorance they created as a tool to gain power.

[TheMadMonk]

43. What of the people who willingly and willfully embraced that ignorance?

People who would far rather peer into the bedrooms of others than pay any attention to the reality around them.

[Echo In Light]

45. Again, the Carlin rant:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4117376351028794150&q=george+carlin+the+public+sucks&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Although I must say I don't agree 100% with his sentiment ...all the time. For the most part I do, but still believe that if people are at last backed into a corner that lip service won't disguise, they'll resist, take a stand, and do the right thing. Or not...some say that time has already come and gone for America, others don't think that shoe has dropped just yet.

[Jed Dilligan]

59. No, it's the politicians

If people were better-educated and had real role models in positions of power they would behave better. It's not their fault that they get no meaningful education and have nothing but swine to look up to.

People here will go out of their way to shift blame off of their political heroes, but the truth is, there are no heroes anymore. At least none who are also winners.

[Kip Humphrey]

47. Its not like anyone ever ran on PNAC. How many Americans know Hillary is a neo-liberal and know

what that means? 5%? 10%? Besides, at least most of us on DU understand the elections have been rigged, that Gore and Kerry both won! Blame the people? In an esoteric sense, sure. But, factor in the effectiveness of and the constant improvement principles applied to the psychological propaganda perpetuated against the American electorate and I fail to see legitimacy in your argument.

[Echo In Light]

48. I've suggested a national poll to discover just how few are aware of PNAC

[blindpig]

50. backwards

It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness. -Karl Marx's 1859 Preface to the Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy

[Echo In Light]

56. Good quote

[snagglepuss]

54. Excellent post.

[tomreedtoon]

55. I almost disagree...TheMadMonk, you need a little refinement.

I can agree that many Americans have these severe personality dysfunctions built in. However, in the best of times, good leaders drove Americans to get beyond them. Think King and Roosevelt.

In this time, for about the last twenty-thirty years, politicians and entertainment media have been pushing Americans to the worst excesses and their worst instincts. It goes beyond the news coverage Michael Moore talked about in Bowling for Columbine, the clearest description of America's pathetic news. It goes to movies like Arnold Schwartzenegger's True Lies, where he blithely forces his wife into a terrible simulation of prostitution and allows Key West and its gay population to be nuked...and this film was called a freaking COMEDY!

I'm not saying Americans are sheeple. I am saying that popular leaders can inspire them to do good, or to do evil. Guess what's dominated our popular culture for the last few decades.

[Political Heretic]

57. I actually disagree with that strongly.