Should states with abundance of fresh water share?

[flashl]

States act to protect water

Officials: Water already is being utilized regionally

Michigan is drowning.

There is plenty of water here. Lake Huron alone contains more than 900 trillion gallons of water. Combined, the Great Lakes account for 95% of America's freshwater and 22% of the world's freshwater.

Despite those numbers, some people in the Blue Water Area are asking the same question: Is there enough?

Most agree we have enough water to fulfill our own needs - crops are sustained, there's plenty of drinking water to go around, power plants are cooled - but are unconvinced we have enough to share, sell or otherwise spread the water wealth to the rest of the nation.

A skirmish of words broke out last fall, highlighting potential tensions, when then-presidential candidate Bill Richardson shared his opinion on what to do with the overabundance of water in Great Lakes states.

"I want a national water policy. We need a dialogue between states to deal with issues such as water conservation, water reuse technology, water delivery and water production. States such as Wisconsin are awash in water," Richardson said.

Times Herald

[thunder rising]

1. There is a series of high altitude photographs showing the Great Lakes

have shrunk significantly. Next, how would it be delivered? And where? Who are the states that are asking?

[hedgehog]

2. There is one very good reason that it is impractical to "share"

It takes energy to move water around. Instead of disturbing an ecosystem that is only partially understood by pumping water from the Great Lakes basin, how about exploring desalinization first, not to mention stop trying to grow lush lawns in the deserts.

[lastliberalintexas]

60. The second environmental impact, that on the watershed

from which the water is taken, is rarely mentioned. I live in SE Texas, a region with abundant supplies of water that Houston, Dallas and even El Paso have had in their sights for years now. One of the things that has helped stop the transfer thus far is the harm it would do to the Big Thicket ecosystem. I don't hold out much hope that we can continue to block the transfer forever, unfortunately.

But you brought up a very good point that is often ignored. Not only is it environmentally unsustainable for people to try to live in the desert as though they are in the swamps of Louisiana, but we would likely be doing untold future harm as well. Not that too many people care.

[Bonobo]

3. perhaps people should not live in states without sufficient water.

[cali]

5. stop making sense.

the more people insist on living in areas that are essentially arid, the more they will insist on "their share" of water from other place. No way should the ecosystem be raped for that.

[Neshanic]

9. People should not live where they have to use oil to heat.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. Or coal or wood, since they cause air pollution.

Damn, we're screwed, aren't we?

[Bonobo]

16. Living in cold climates = normal.

Living where there is insufficient water, not so much.

[XemaSab]

48. Um... how do you figure?

:shrug:

[Bonobo]

53. Just look at history.

People have followed game, gone into the coldest godamn places, even across the Bering Straits.

As long as there is food. You can build shelter. Look at the Inuits.

No trees for shelter? No problem! Make it out of ice!

No trees for fuel to heat yourself or cook food? No problem! Burn walrus fat!

People all over have figured out how to stay warm? We're warm blooded animal!

But water? You don't have water for 2 days and you're dead.

So no. People don't go where there is no water.

[NuttyFluffers]

63. historically more people lived in deserts and arid plateaus than polar regions.

Australia, 3rd of Africa, ginormous chunk of Asia, huge stretches of Americas...

methinks your not too familiar with this history you speak of.

[gollygee]

68. Did they have golf courses and big green lawns? n/t

[NuttyFluffers]

96. well some powerful rulers had impressive pleasure gardens... ;)

but our golf courses and big green lawns are rather conspicuous levels of unsustainable consumption, aren't they?

[NutmegYankee]

79. And they lived right near a source of water. (lake, river, well)

and even then, populations stayed small.

[NuttyFluffers]

98. well, populations were sometimes large. and some worked off cisterns, nomadism, etc...

so technically, no, you're wrong. but yes, they were very mindful of managing their water resources. water does mean life.

but several nomadic groups survived off of blood, milk, juice of roots, etc. other stationary agrarian groups worked off of large cisterns, distant irrigation, artificial reservoirs, etc. y'know, there's been empires in these arid regions -- let that word sink in, empires. this is far more than the small population kingdoms or tribal lands of the polar regions. water is crucially important, but so is the access to hospitable temperatures. we're remarkably fragile as well as resilient.

[NutmegYankee]

101. Small by modern standards.

So no, I'm right. There wasn't 4 million people living in one large metro area. There were empires yes, but when all that needs to be controlled is pockets of civilization, it is easy to form an empire.

:eyes:

[NuttyFluffers]

104. everything is small to the post-antibiotic age, so that's a ridiculous assertion.

besides, the empires in those regions did have huge populations. many had several cities of 100,000+ or clusters of multiple 30,000+ cities in a small areas. that's incredibly large. in the post-antibiotic age that seems small, but even the lush regions of the world rarely had that much going on. it's absolutely ridiculous to assert that arid regions are by design supposed to be desolate of significant populations. if we have modern technology for antibiotics, let alone modern technology for water conservation, transport, conversion, and reservation, we can sustain desert populations if we want. it's just a matter of planning and will.

hell, California is an arid fire ecology for over 1/2 the state and the majority of the Central Valley. yet we irrigate this place up the yin yang and have become the leading agricultural producer as well as most populous state. and y'know, 90% of the water goes to agriculture w/ little to no conservation imposed on the farms and ranches. yes, that means we can easily have a population increase in proportion to the reassessment of agricultural water usage here. and no, there doesn't have to be a sacrifice in food production either. the current waste in america, and around the world, is enormous.

but you may persist in the bad, and irrelevant, analogy if you so choose

[NutmegYankee]

106. You missed the point completely. (and antibiotics mean nothing)

Once again - 4 million people? And note that some "Desert" cities are right next to rivers, with good flood plain soil and easy access to water. (Eqypt, Iraq) When people search along dry river beds, you want to know what they find - They find RUINS. As in, holy shit, the river dried up, time to move.

Your using examples like Cairo and Baghdad, famous large cities that had ample water. Notice the population density in the desert west from the Nile, or West from the Tigris. Few live there. Gee, wonder why that is?



Oh, and the antibiotic comment is BS. London, England alone had a population of 2.3 million in 1851, and about 6 million by 1900. All of that is before the "antibiotic" age.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/yourlondon/unitedcolours/cemeteries/magnificent_seven.shtml
http://www.picturesofengland.com/history/london-history.html

[LanternWaste]

76. One man's normal is another's man's...

One man's normal is another's man's, "maybe they instead should..." :shrug:

And in those states where there is insufficient water, isn't it actually 'insufficient to meet the needs of the current population'? Much like-- sooner or later, there will be insufficient gas and coal to meet the needs of those in colder climes...

[NutmegYankee]

78. Electric Heat. n/t

[LanternWaste]

85. Electric pumps and transfer systems. n/t

Electric pumps and transfer systems.

[NutmegYankee]

86. With what water?

You are not going to be allowed to "Aral sea" the Great Lakes. Deal with it.

Oh, and my heat comes from the nuclear power plant 8 miles away.

[LanternWaste]

87. I'm sure people have very, very good reasons

I'm sure people have very, very good reasons to justify greed.

I just happen to think that people need what people need, and that part and parcel of the job of humanity is to provide them with it-- regardless.

Congratulations on your nuclear power plant. :shrug:

[NutmegYankee]

88. It is not greed to want to avoid destroying the Great Lakes.

The lakes provide transportation for the region, provide drinking supplies, fishing, industrial needs. Greed is wanting to destroy that for the benefit of others in an arid region.

As for the nuclear, I was making the point that we do not have to use gas or oil heat. We just do because many homes are older, from a time when you heated with oil or wood.

[gollygee]

90. That's a short-sighted view

The southwest will use as much water as is available. With more water, the area will continue to grow and won't have any incentive to not have golf courses, fountains, huge green lawns, etc. Not that they avoid golf courses, fountains, and huge green lawns as it is. As that area grows, it will need even more water. The Great Lakes aren't renewable - they were filled by Ice Age glaciers and when they're gone, they will be gone. If you put that water into a desert, it will be gone, and relatively soon, and then that area will be arid and the former Great Lakes region will be too. So long as the Great Lakes remain a resource, they are available for people to move to if lack of water resources make it impossible to live elsewhere. What if it's impossible to live there AND here? Where will people go?

It isn't ethical to destroy our ecosystem in order to help more people live in an area and way that isn't sustainable.

[NutmegYankee]

17. There is no place where you HAVE to use oil to heat.

Electric, wood, and gas do just fine as well. I use electric myself. Right from the Nuclear power plant 8 miles away.

[cali]

18. air conditioning is just as much of a problem.

I'm lucky. I live in a small, super insulated house with passive solar and solar panels. I use very little energy to heat, and none to cool.

[Rosemary2205]

19. Why not?

Is there a plan being floated about to forcibly take heating oil from Arizona and give it to New England? Last I heard those people were BUYING their heating oil, not demanding it.

And if you don't think the energy to air condition the west uses oil -- well...........

[joshcryer]

50. Should Isreal share water with Palestine?

[cali]

56. What does that have to do with this situation?

First of all Israel is tapping into Palestinian water sources and that's the problem, not that they won't share. secondly, harming the eco system to provide water to people who live in areas that don't have enough water to support the population that lives there is shortsighted.

[joshcryer]

57. Everything.

If I put up an arbitray border, as many states are merely arbitrary borders, I'm not allowed to access planetary resources from my fellow human beings? That's just silly.

I breath the same air you breath.

[gollygee]

67. You breathing the same air as us doesn't destroy our ecosystem

One area can't ethically destroy the ecosystem of another area. People moved there for the constant sunshine. This is the flipside. If people decide constant sunshine isn't as valuable as abundant fresh water, they'll move back north.

[RuleOfNah]

30. Look at California.

Water in the north and people in the south. Voter block wins, via developers, water goes south.

Seen the movie Chinatown?

[Bonobo]

31. Yup, you got it. Same here in Massachusetts. They flooded a whole area

here in 1930 to serve Boston. It's called the Quabbin Reservoir.

http://www.insideout.org/documentaries/hauntingquabbin/default.asp

Recently, Nestles was looking into stealing our water for one of their evil bottled water ventures.

We told them collectively to fuck off. They fucked off.

[Xithras]

91. Yep, we in the north happily ship our sewage south.

Or did you not know that? The California aqueduct draws its water from the mouth of the Delta, downstream of more than two dozen municipal wastewater facilities and literally thousands of farm runoff canals. When I flush my toilet, that water makes its way into the Tuolumne River, from there into the San Joaquin, and from there into the Delta. Just as it's about to dump into the SF Bay, the pumps near Tracy pick it up and ship it to the taps in the southern part of the state.

There is a reason that Nortern Californians don't gripe much about the water being shipped south...you're getting water we either don't want or have already used.

The story is very different when you're talking about draining someones favorite lake to quench someones thirst a thousand miles away.

[Jed Dilligan]

40. Then they should also shun food from California

where 80-90% of the water goes to agriculture, not homes.

[madrchsod]

4. you have to ask canada and we are not awash in water

the water has been there since the glaciers melted and all the major river in illinois and wisconsin flow to the mississippi. rain water is the only source for replenishing the great lakes. at the present time lake michigan is low.

[jody]

6. If it were oil, would not the state charge others for its oil? Why should water be different? n/t

[mondo joe]

7. Right after we start a national sharing process for other resources, like oil, grains

and fruit.

[Rosemary2205]

8. Nature provides what it provides.

I'm not surprised the western US feels entitled to Michigan's water, but they don't want to move to enjoy Michigan's other qualities, like snow, rain, clouds and cold - all the things that put the water there in the first place. I have nothing against the west, you all are great people. But if you want green golf courses, swimming pools, water fountains etc and your climate doesn't support it, then you have a choice. Move someplace where there's enough water for that stuff, or live without it.

We in Georgia are going to have to start making those same choices pretty soon too.

[Neshanic]

11. Wellstop sending people here. It's not like they are forced to live here.

Last time I looked, snowbirds from the northern states still flock here. Oh and tell them to stop playing golf too.

[Bonobo]

13. They will stop coming as soon as the water dries up, no fear.

The other good thing: It's starting to warm up here.

I'm hoping to start a vineyard where the sugar maples that used to yield twice as much maple sap are.

[Rosemary2205]

21. LOL

Maybe Arizona can leave the union, close it's borders and not allow entry to any yankees. LOL

[TahitiNut]

10. Well, we might be able to work out a revenue-sharing arrangement ... charge equal to a barrel of oil

:shrug:

[Bonobo]

12. I have a good answer: Pay for some of my heating bills here in Massachusetts and

give me some of the fruits and vegetables you can grow year round in California, and I will share some of my water.

[XemaSab]

49. So we pay you twice

and you pay us once? :shrug:

PS we have plenty of water in California. thanks for the offer. :P

[gollygee]

14. Michigan's ecology requires that we have a high water table

if you screw around with that, you will change lots about the state, including lots of things that we wouldn't even be able to forsee. People who want golf courses, swimming pools, and green lawns, should probably reconsider living in deserts.

Also, the water doesn't belong to the US and can't simply be redistributed. There's another country involved and there are treaties prohibiting moving the water elsewhere.

Finally, there are a TON of people living in areas that just plain can't handle living in those areas. Ship more water in and even more people will live there, and even more water will be needed. There is no reason to assume that the great lakes region will always have plenty of water if you do that.

It seems ridiculous to me. If we can someday move sunshine around, would it be OK to say, "Southern California doesn't need so much sun. We'll take some of it and move it to Michigan?" That's how it sounds to me.

[NutmegYankee]

20. Problem is, the great lakes water level would drop.

The lakes do not recharge enough as it is, and they have been dropping. If that happen more, it would effect shipping, and damage the economy in the region.

Moral of the story - Don't live in a fucking desert.

[semillama]

22. Here's an idea: move to where the water is. It's a time-tested method

Michigan is the only state that lost population last year. Instead of trying to move water around, just move enough people into the midwest until the arid southwest has a population in line with its water resources.

Makes as much sense and probably is cheaper to effect.

[Warpy]

23. Should states with coal reserves keep them to themselves

and states with abundant hyrdro power get off the grid and stop sharing (for a price) with other states?

Think of viewing water as a natural resource belonging to a region and you begin to see how a depressed region like the upper midwest might be sitting on the gold mine of the future. The problem is creating a distribution network, and that's what Richardson was trying to talk about.

However, too many people flew off the handle about the rest of the country STEALING their water instead of viewing it in much the same way as electricity generation or other resource development. We pay for electricity and it might be generated far, far from home. The same would be true of a water distribution network.

Think of how much better the southeast might be doing right now if such a network were already in place. They'd have to pay for the privilege, but they'd have enough to drink.

[Batgirl]

26. I don't think coal is a dynamic, interactive part of it's environment

in the way that water is. It seems rather inert. It doesn't seem to really move around very much on its own and although I'm not a scientist it doesn't seem like coal provides a habitat for living creatures in the way that lakes, rivers and rainfall patterns do. Digging coal out of the ground would obviously affect plants and animals that are living in that immediate area, but I can't see how it would have an affect on an entire ecosystem. I really don't think the two resources are comparable in that regard.

[gollygee]

59. Please send me links with info about people without enough water to drink

I haven't heard of any trend of people dying of dehydration in Arizona due to lack of drinking water. Perhaps if Arizona residents are having trouble to that extent, people should stop having green lawns, swimming pools, and golf courses. Or, they could move somewhere with water.

If Arizona's ecosystem doesn't support that many people, then some of the people need to move.

[Warpy]

74. I suggest you do your own research

about town and city water supplies in Georgia.

Thank you.

[gollygee]

81. Georgia is going through a drought but is not a desert

so it is an entirely different situation than Arizona, which will always be a desert.

[NashVegas]

64. Coal Is Not a Necessity for Life

The heat it provides is, in the winter, but there are ways of getting around it - thus, it is a commodity some people may choose to consume.

There is no replacement for water. There is no choice about whether or not to use it. Don't use it, you die.

We are top heavy. I don't see how a catastrophe of magnificent proportions is avoidable at this point. That's why the Bushes went and bought land over an aquifer in the wilds of Paraguay. When the shit hits the fan, it'll be a good place to rough it out for a few decades.

[alarimer]

24. No. States with little water need sensible controls on their growth

NO ONE should be building golf courses in the Arizona desert unless they come up with a plan for finding that water that does not mean taking it from another city or state. Reclaimed water is good for water golf courses and washing cars.

[depakid]

45. Bingo

The Amount of sheer and needless waste in the American SouthWest and Southern California is appalling. Before they go around asking for other states and regions to bail them out, they need to deal with their own overgrown, grandious sense of entitlement.

[XemaSab]

51. Reclaimed water

should be going back into the ecosystem, not watering lawns. :(

[Iktomiwicasa]

25. No.

Water belongs where it falls. Creator has figured out where it is most needed. White man's way is to try to "improve" things

[MichiganVote]

27. Move here if you like it so much.

[mdmc]

28. I live where the water is

I left Colorado and Las Vegas cause it was too dry.

[blogslut]

29. Believe it or not, on the prairies of West Texas

...we got our own troubles with water thieving varmints. We sit atop one of the largest underground aquifers in the world and certain "Swiftie" is attempting to pipe that water down state.

http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/02/01/water_texas/

[mdmc]

32. thank you for that link

God bless our water!

[originalpckelly]

33. Yes, but only after we've used it first.

:P

EEEEEW!

[Robbien]

34. Michigan water is being given away practically free to bottle water companies

Nestle is the prime thief.

Sharing with the American public is one thing. Having a corporate entity set up bottle water plants and make billions of dollars selling that water is another.

Michigan is no richer for practically giving away public water rights to corporate entities.

[PsN2Wind]

35. Actually Arizona would have an adequate

amount of water if Minnesota, Wisconsin, Maine and other Northeastern states didn't share so much of their population with us.

[NutmegYankee]

36. Hey, you build the houses for them.

and welcome them.

[PsN2Wind]

37. No, the developers build the houses

using mostly immigrant labor.

[NutmegYankee]

38. Go figure, immigrant labor builds them here too. n/t

[XemaSab]

52. Dude.

I couldn't have said it better. :toast:

[gollygee]

58. Stop making golf courses for them

the retirees I know go down there so they can golf year round. Arizona would have more water if there weren't the golf courses using what little water there is up, PLUS there would be fewer transplants.

[mainegreen]

65. Sorry we here in Maine sent you all of 100 people.

Must really be crushing your resources all those Mainers flocking there.

[PsN2Wind]

72. I hope you're more comfortable

now that you've gotten that number out of your ass. The town in which I live has 61 Mainers and we're no where near the size of Sun City etc.

[mainegreen]

77. No offense, but the idea of Mainers swarming anywhere is laughable.

It would be like me bitching about all the people from Arizona swarming up in Maine. Oh sure, a few show up, and you're bound to find a bunch in Boothbay in summer, but please, leave us out of this.

[Neshanic]

39. Some things you may want to know considering the Arizona bashing.

All you people who live in the "normal" areas of the nation, you may want to do the following, since you are so concerned with water. These things have been done in Arizona for the last 30 years, so you may want to catch up.

If you have a lawn, why do you have a lawn? You don't need it. Why not let your yards revert to the natural meadow or forest that originally was there?

If you have sprinklers for your shrubs, you will need to convert them to drip irrigation. No bubblers or spray allowed (hear that California?)

Make the city you live in pay for low water landscape reversions for your home.

Make your cities have massive grey water treatment plants and extensive "purple" pipe systems that water golf courses, parks, front lawns, and all roadway landscape.

Tear out all turf in the road r.o.w. It is not allowed in Arizona.

Make water very expensive, so the more you use, the more you pay.

Price water meters by size.

Do not allow front lawns in many communities.

Have the state you live in tell you what plants you are allowed to plant. All low water use. It's not a choice, it's the law.

Have the most forward thinking ground water laws in the nation. Thanks Bruce Babbitt.

Balance as best you can a climate that people find fun to be in during the winter, and the things they like to do on vacation. Swim, play golf, have superbowls.

So you know, we are not letting water run down the streets in tidal waves, and are probably more water efficent than many other states, and we get the most use from the water we have. People move here. Strangely people from the Northern Midwest states like it here the most, this unscientifically noticd by the plates on cars.

Some links you may want to see. NO state I know of plans for water like we do. Yes we have to more, but we are no slouches now.

http://www.azwater.gov/dwr/
http://www.azwater.gov/dwr/Content/Find_by_Program/Drought_and_Conservation/LowWaterPlantLists/default.htm
http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/water.asp

[madmunchie]

92. Why do people want to live in a desert where life is not naturally sustained?

No trees, shurbs, no abundance of small animals....life - People have taken a place that can naturally sustain very little life and starts using up natural resources from others to sustain life???? Makes no sense to me. The desert should stay just that a desert. There are man made disasters and Natural disasters, we are in for a huge man made disaster - thank God not in my lifetime -

[Nailzberg]

41. Get your own damn water.

[roamer65]

42. No and we'll stop any attempts at diversion.

Period.

[Yuugal]

43. Share and Share alike

Lots of water here in upstate NY, next time the road washes out come get yourself some! :)

[scarletwoman]

44. No. Live within the limits of your ecosystem, and don't raid someone else's ecosytem. (nt)

[RadioactiveCarrot]

46. Gimping an ecosystem to sustain a lifestyle thousands of miles away?

Sounds like a half-assed plan. We seem to specialize in those as of late though sadly. Stealing water from the Great Lakes to ship it out West would be stupid at best, destructive at worst.

That said, stop sending us waves of people from the East/Midwest and the water issue wouldn't be quite as strained.
I doubt many of the people playing on those 'golf courses in Arizona' are born Zonies. When I was born there was...2 million? People in Maricopa county. We're up to 3 and a half or 4 million now? Something around there.
That's a hefty bit of increased demand.

[XemaSab]

47. Whiskey's for drinking; water's for fighting over.

:popcorn:

[BadgerLaw2010]

54. No. And what abundance? Lake levels are low.

[Bravo Zulu]

55. No

Because they will waste it on unnecessary things, and then they will complain that they need more, and then we won't have enough for our own needs, it is a never ending cycle, you should have thought about that before you moved to the desert!

[SidDithers]

61. Which states have an abundance of fresh water?...

Last time I checked, there's also a northern shore to those lakes that Richardson was talking about.

Sid

[Marrah_G]

62. The US does not own the Great lakes- They are SHARED with Canada

[gollygee]

66. Well, we'll just have to bomb them!

What's one more war over resources?

:sarcasm:

[Minstrel Boy]

69. The Great Lakes is non-renewable freshwater

Only 1% is replenished by precipitation. 99% is a legacy of the ice age.

When it's gone, it's gone. And it's already going.

From last September:

The Great Lakes, so named because of their immense size and prodigious water content, aren't as great as they used to be. Government forecasters are projecting that Lake Superior, the largest of the five, will fall to its lowest level for September since modern recordkeeping began nearly a century ago. The amount flowing out of the lake at its outlet, the St. Mary's River, has plunged too, and would have to rise by a staggering 50 per cent to reach the average of the past century.

Levels on Lakes Michigan and Huron are also sagging, Ontario is down, as is Erie – although the latter, the smallest by volume, has been the least affected.

What's going on? While there is no scientific certainty about what's ailing the Great Lakes – which together form the world's largest interconnected body of fresh water – some fear global warming is at work, causing them to shrink.

For Michigan and Huron, there is an added concern: Human meddling may have made them spring what amounts to a giant leak. Environmentalists contend that decades-ago dredging near Sarnia is causing them to lose an enormous amount of water – estimated at about an extra 10 billion litres a day, or enough to fill 4,000 Olympic-size pools.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070924.wlakes24/BNStory/National/home

Before people start fucking with the Great Lakes, they need to unfuck it. And remember the Aral Sea.

[SidDithers]

70. Good point...

I was reading about the Aral sea in an old issue of McLeans the other day, and that was one of my first thoughts when I saw this thread.

Sid

[Iggo]

71. Yes.

[Tesha]

73. No. If you want water, move to a state/region that has some. (NT)

[NNN0LHI]

75. This is going to be like Chinatown on steroids n/t

[ToeBot]

80. What you've got spare water? Better keep quite about it.

Las Vegas might hear you.

[NutmegYankee]

84. There is no spare water.

people living in a desert look on a map and see great lakes and want the water, and feel it's excess. It has been tried before, and we know what would happen. Look up the Aral Sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

[Pathwalker]

82. We are so NOT drowning! We're freezing!

Now hear this: Michigan does not control the Great Lakes! Please Google the Great Lakes Water Treaty so you can start picking on the other Great Lakes States, and don't forget Canada, since it's their water too. Because water conservation in dry states is just so...intelligent.

PS: The lakes are all receding too, but don't let that fact sway you, either.

[IDemo]

83. No. "Abundance" is a subjective term, and highly subject to change

[Bassic]

89. I hope so

Because otherwise, Washington will just use Nafta to get it from us.

[applegrove]

93. That Great Lakes water is not all American.

[aikoaiko]

94. I didn't think the great lakes belonged to any particular US state?

federal water shared with Can.

[Scout]

95. no. n/t

[knitter4democracy]

97. I call BS. We're not drowning with the lakes at some of their lowest levels.

Last summer, we had one of the worst droughts ever, and we lost all sorts of crops. The lakes were so low that tankers couldn't go in many usual routes and had to ride higher than usual. Scuttlebutt up north is that tankers were leaving port empty and then filling up with lake water further out. A friend of mine's friend saw it from his boat. It took way longer than ballast usually does. People are wondering where the water's going.

[izzybeans]

99. Except lake michigan is at a record low right now. So nope.

[nonconformist]

100. NO, and thankfully it will never happen because of the Great Lakes Water Treaty.

Michigan, for one, will NEVER agree.

If one wants an abundance of water, perhaps one shouldn't live in the desert.

[and-justice-for-all]

102. Perphaps Wate Desalinization Planets need built..

on the coast. Just a thought.

[Squatch]

103. A good book you all should read: "Cadillac Desert"

A brilliantly told story of water, geology, and the west is found within the covers of Cadillac Desert. In the West, water has always been a limiting commodity, and water rights and wrongs flow through this ambitious story. Floods, geology, soil complexity, politics, taxes, and the massive egos that have driven the building of the West, its dams, and the growth of its cities all permeate Cadillac Desert. Marc Reisner takes us through a history rarely explored and educates us about these issues that still plague the West. Silting of reservoirs, draining of aquifers, varying geology, matters of practicality, economics, ecology, and social issues surrounding water in the West are linked for us by the formation of the water projects that have defined the West. These issues continue to gain importance as the Western U.S. gains population and the sources of water continue to dwindle. A fascinating, thoughtful book, the award winning Cadillac Desert is as entertaining as it is enlightening. Recommended by Dr. Clive Dorman, 2003. Reviewed May 2003 by Bev Carson.

[Hidden Stillness]

105. Never

This issue comes up periodically, and has for many years, and I will just tell non-Great-Lakes area DUers, if you are not aware, that people of this area are furious at this thing, and absolutely united on their total opposition to it. Over the past couple of decades, there have been near-proposals by other States to start diverting water, "privatization"/ commercialization attempts by Michigan's former, and hated, Republican Governor Engler, now the head of the National Association of Manufacturers, and others, and they are always met with a complete wall of angry resistence. This will never be acceptable, and actually unites Democrats and those other people, as one of the few issues where everyone agrees, and is very angry. After we get no help at all on our Depression-level unemployment, outsourced manufacturing base, (which many other States helped to steal, by luring plants of various kinds away from the area, to the South or etc., so that they could set them up again as non-union workplaces with no or very low corporate taxes and weak pollution regulations)--they never helped us on anything else, but now suddenly this? How is it "sharing," when the only plan is for you to take?

As mentioned, recent studies show the Lake levels at dangerous, all-time lows, even Lake Superior. Global warming accounts for part of it, and it has very recently been discovered that dredging and other projects of the Army Corps of Engineers has actually lowered the bottom floor of Lakes Huron and Erie so much, that water is draining out Lake Ontario to the St. Lawrence Seaway all the way to the Atlantic Ocean; it opened a moving-current funnel effect, and the Lake water is dropping from it; it is not just staying in the Eastern Lakes anymore! If they can reverse what they have done, for the sake of large-ship commerce, then maybe this part of it will stop. Also as mentioned, the Lakes and their water do not "belong" to Michigan alone, although they surround us; they touch Canada, and other States, and are not only fresh water, but probably our largest attraction for tourism--so you would kill us many ways for your watered golf courses.

Thoughtlessly demanding that we "give" you this or that resource, when this is the greatest glory of our region, is sure to bring divisiveness on a scale not yet known, will lead to something like a Civil War, and will never happen. We have been down this road before--never.