Tim Hardaway interview with Scoop Jackson. Very interesting read.

[jobycom]

I'm not posting this to defend or condemn Hardaway, only because it's a strikingly candid interview. There's a lot of CYA, but there is a lot of insight into the mind of a bigot who is having to face his bigotry for the first time. Read all the way to the end, some of the most striking stuff is near the end. I imagine this will make some hate him more, some forgive him a little, and probably a few other responses. But mostly, I just think it's a fascinating insight, not just into Hardaway, but into the whole issue of tolerance and intolerance in today's society.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/070222&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab3pos1

(Some snips, but they don't do the whole discussion justice)

See, Timmy Hardaway and I grew up together, been tight for over 30 years, family linked through blood and love. So when the fallout unfolded after he said on Dan Le Batard's radio show that he hates gay people, I felt the right thing to do would be toss the man a life preserver. Know him or not, agree or disagree, black or white, gay or straight, it should never be in us to watch a man drown without doing something. Now what he does with the life preserver once it's thrown out there is an entirely different story. That is all on him.

To find the place between objectivity and spin control. That's where we found ourselves. He in Miami, me on the same block we grew up on in Chicago. A very honest conversation with Timmy Hardaway. One week after seeing him begin to drown.

snip

But Tim, you've been in Miami for years now and there is a strong and public gay community there. How have you still held on to that same mentality while living in Miami all of these years?

I just get away from it. I just walk away. I see it, I just go the other way, cross the street.

So at no point did you ever try to understand their lifestyle or way of life?

No. Never did. Never wanted to.

Do you want to now?

No. I don't want to … try to find some type of understanding of why they live the way they live or why they are the way they are. Maybe I could go to therapy, maybe someone can help me out with understanding , the sensitivity of the issue. But as a person, my beliefs are my beliefs. I don't have to condone it and I don't have to be around it. But I don't have to hate it either.

So do you understand the public's reaction?

Yes. And everyone has the right to say what they want to say to me in response. You can curse me out in the streets and in the papers. As long as they don't put their hands on me.

snip

OK, so let's say one of our boys, or better yet for the sake of this interview, what if I told you that I was gay. We've known each other all of our lives, came up together, we boys and all, and out of nowhere I spring that on you. Told you that the wife and kids were all a facade and that all of this time I've been gay. How would you accept that? Or would you? Would you end the friendship?

Wow. I don't know. I honestly don't know. Wow. I'd probably be or say something like, "Me and Scoop was tight until he told me this." Our friendship may not continue to be as tight as it is but I'd let you know that you could call me, talk to me whenever, something like that. I really wouldn't know how to react to that.

-----------------

It's really a complex interview. Cudos to Scoop Jackson for undertaking it, and for not loading his friend up with sofball questions meant to bail him out. Though others may disagree he did a good job, I guess.

[JackBeck]

1. "I just go the other way, cross the street."

He's afraid to catch the gay.

[Kikosexy2]

2. Hardaway....

sounds like a guy who probably goes to adult bookstores or the parks looking for a quickie with another guy and still says he's not gay or hates them because he didn't kiss the guy...only likes getting a good bj because the little woman didn't put out...LOL...

[JackBeck]

6. I see you got the homophobes=closet cases memo.

[JackRiddler]

55. I wonder if you'll ever get the men=mostly bi memo.

[JackBeck]

56. That's news to me.

And hasn't been splattered all over DU recently.

Why don't you post a brand new thread with that title and see how that goes?

[jobycom]

7. I didn't get that impression at all.

I get the impression of someone raised to think of homosexuality as bad, who never questioned why he thinks that way. That's really the biggest obstacle to overcoming this national homophobia--people who never question what they believe can never change what they believe. Towards the end of the interview he seems to be showing that he is thinking about it, and having to put a real human face on it. I'd be interested to see how he's reconciled his issues in a year or two--whether he reverts back to his old beliefs, or moves forward.

But I don't get a feel that he's repressing his own sexuality.

[BoneDaddy]

49. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar

Not every bigot (in fact I believe the vast majority) are not closeted gay men or women, they are just bigots. Some are, of course, but most folks are just intolerent.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

3. Too late -- it's already airborne.

:rofl:

[JackBeck]

5. SA, did you get the gay yet?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

8. I think I'm showing symptoms.

:rofl:

[JackBeck]

9. Hey, I know who you roll with.

You've got the full-blown gay.

:hi:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

10. Now I gotta get a new wardrobe.

:hi:

[LostinVA]

20. Nah, your cigarette case makes up for it

teehee

[Starbucks Anarchist]

25. Sweet!

:D

[LostinVA]

26. It's really cool -- very Metrosexual

[Starbucks Anarchist]

27. Probably the only metrosexual thing about me.

'Cause it's definitely not my clothes. :rofl:

[LostinVA]

29. Hehehehhe -- you look totally fine

I know lots of gay guys who dress just like you. Not all of them are Carson on "Queet Eye"!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

32. LOL, not what I meant.

I've just never had a fashion sense at all. :D

[LostinVA]

36. I know whatr you meant -- I'm teasing you

[JackBeck]

37. Back to the lounge, virgin.

[LostinVA]

39. OMG!!!

(actually, I'm NOT a virgin)

[JackBeck]

41. My bad.

Thought all lesbians who never had sex with a man were virgins.

[LostinVA]

42. Crazy boy

[Starbucks Anarchist]

38. Yes, I like teasing.

:P

[wicket]

43. Oh crap, I think I'm coming down with it!

:P

[jobycom]

4. hehe

Yeah, that part's not flattering to Hardaway, that's for sure.

[JackBeck]

12. That whole interview made me uncomfortable.

:puke:

[Maven]

11. You're right. The snips don't do it justice.

Let's look at some other excerpts:

"...it was just the wrong choice of words. It came out of my mouth real crude and real bad and real ugly. And people think that that's the way I feel. That I hate , and I don't. I don't condone what they do, but I don't hate them. But that's how it came out...I should have been smart about what I was saying and how I expressed my feelings because I offended a lot of folks."

How "Christian" of you. :puke:

Here's another gem:

"But Tim, you've been in Miami for years now and there is a strong and public gay community there. How have you still held on to that same mentality while living in Miami all of these years?

I just get away from it. I just walk away. I see it, I just go the other way, cross the street."

Wait, there's more!

"When we was growing up Scoop, if we saw gay people or whatever, we ran across the street. We got away from them. Our parents, our friends, our families knew that that wasn't right We didn't want to be around that and they definitely didn't want us kids around it. And it's not that they hated gay people, they just felt they it wasn't right. Let them do what they want to do. And that was my experience when I was growing up. Not acknowledging them. Now did something happen to me? No. But I did have a friend that something happened to him in a Catholic school, but that is another can of worms that it's not my place to open because it's not my life. But to answer your question, 'No.' Nothing happened to me. I just don't condone . When I see gay people holding hands or kissing in the streets, I just don't think that's right."

And now, poor Tim fears for his life from those predatory gays!

"Yeah. I have to look in their eyes and watch them walk on eggshells. I have to walk on eggshells. Not knowing what to expect from people. Not sleeping at night because of what someone may do. Staying up until 3 or 4 in the morning thinking that someone may jump my fence and set my house on fire. Or someone try to break in and hurt us."

You see? He's the VICTIM here!

:cry: :cry: :cry: :puke:


Tell me, how exactly did he "do a good job?" This piece of filth just dug himself deeper. And to hell with "Scoop" Johnson for posing questions like "did you ever try to understand their lifestyle?"

But you're right. Kudos to him, for letting his buddy show even more of his hatred.

[Bluebear]

13. "When we saw black people, we ran across the street, We got away from them!"

Imagine saying that. Or insert Jews, Asians, anything you want. This interview is not redemption, it makes him even more despicable if you ask me.

[JackBeck]

14. I thought the same thing when I read that line.

And it further makes the point that the two civil rights movements share many things in common.

[LostinVA]

22. Yup, there's zero difference

Although this jerk -- and some people on DU -- would argue there is.

Bigotry and discrimination are bigotry and discrimination, regardless of the minority.

[jobycom]

17. Those quotes don't do it justice, either

I think anyone could find quotes to redeem or condemn him in this article. You chose to condemn (with justification). I chose to pick out a few quotes I thought showed the conflicts within him. You could pick out comments to argue that he's a good guy if you wanted to. I don't think any of those angles would be comprehensive.

And I don't agree with two things you said. First, you sarcastically commented on Hardaway's "Christianity." Hardaway specifically says this isn't a religious belief. And second, you claim Hardaway is playing the victim. He takes full blame for every problem he's encountering. He is describing how the fallout has affected him, but he's not claiming to be the victim.

As for Scoop Johnson's interview, I'll tell you how I think he did a good job, since you asked. He was trying to reveal the true person, not trying to help or hurt him, not trying to redeem or condemn him. I thought the questions were good, got to the heart of Hardaway's inconsistencies, and remained neutral. He wasn't trying to "get" Hardaway or to save him, he was just letting Hardaway reveal who he is. It's up to the audience to judge him after that.

Not a likable image of Hardaway. But I see it as a more complex image than you did. I guess I approach it differently. I don't care one way or the other about Hardaway himself--he's just a vocalized part of a much larger issue. I'm interested in the attitudes he reveals because I think that's the heart of the issue. This is the person we have to change. And there are many openings in his expressed beliefs through which change could occur. Some were brought on by the reaction to his comments. That's how I read it. There are two ways we can change America--we can kill everyone who disagrees with us, or we can look for opportunities to help them understand what we see. Help them overcome their hatred. You can't do that by hatred. You can't do it by not responding strongly to their hatred, either. But to me, the point of a strong response is to make the perp reevaluate his position. In this case, in this interview, there are signs that he is struggling with the issue, that he has changed to some degree. If those changes go no further, then not much has been accomplished. But they may be the start of something.

I lived in Mississippi during the later part of Civil Rights and desegregation. I've seen people change. That article is how they look when they first start to. Many don't go any further, but some do. And that's where there is hope for the nation. This isn't about Hardaway, it's about what happens next.

[Maven]

19. Anyone who could find something to "redeem" him in that article

is no friend of the GLBT community. Sorry. It only shows how deep his hatred runs. You like him for being "candid?" What a farce. Frankly, his first statement was more "candid." This is spin control wrought into a trainwreck, nothing more. He hasn't learned anything, and makes it perfectly clear that he doesn't intend to.

"You could pick out comments to argue that he's a good guy if you wanted to."

O.M.G. No, you really couldn't. He's a loathsome bigot, and if someone had said ANY of the things he said about a racial minority, I DOUBT you'd be on here saying this interview could "redeem" him in the eyes of anyone but a fellow bigot.

I don't "claim" he's playing the victim, he SAYS he's afraid for his life (!). From whom, I wonder? Obviously those hateful, awful people who think what he said was despicable. Just playing into the whole "gays are predators" bullshit. No wonder he still crosses the street when he sees us.

Let me break it down for you: I have no interest in "changing" someone like Tim Hardaway. It's not really within any of our power. People like him, deeply, unapologetically hateful people, rarely change. Rarely. What I'm interested in is using him as a mirror to other people who hate more quietly, who are quietly homophobic, to show them the ultimate absurdity of their prejudice. Tim Hardaway himself can go piss up a rope.

"In this case, in this interview, there are signs that he is struggling with the issue, that he has changed to some degree."

WHAT? What signs? His attitude hasn't changed at all, only his awareness that he should be more "discreet" about it and use "better words" next time. And if this little "slip-up" wasn't costing him $$$$$$, you know what he'd be apologizing for? NOTHING.

Again, picture yourself saying any of this about a racist who "apologized" for "using the wrong words." Gimme a break. And the article was nothing but a friend helping another friend out. Like I said, he just wound up making his friend look worse.

[JackBeck]

21. Lighten up, Harvey.

Stop trying to ruin our chances to get Democrats elected come next election cycle.

:sarcasm:

That interview was nothing more than a clumsy p.r. attempt to spit-shine Hardaway's image for those precious endorsement deals. He needs to apologize for more than just using the word "hate".

Great response, my friend.

[jobycom]

30. I never said anything about the article redeeming him. I said the opposite.

And if you find bigotry in my posts, point it out, don't do that passive/aggressive bullshit of pretending you are talking about someone else. "He's a loathsome bigot, and if someone had said ANY of the things he said about a racial minority, I DOUBT you'd be on here saying this interview could "redeem" him in the eyes of anyone but a fellow bigot."

Write about what I said, not about your fantasies. I never said I "like him for being candid," I said nothing to imply that, and I said the opposite the only times I expressed an opinion of him. You read my posts the way you read this article--dishonestly, with no intention other than to hate something. If that's what makes you feel good, cool for you, but don't impugn my intentions.

Discuss what I said, not what you wish I had said.

[Maven]

33. Your words are right there for all to see.

You could argue he's a "good guy."

You could find comments to "redeem him."

You found his responses "strikingly candid." (How honorable!)

I didn't call you a bigot, so it seems you're the one trying to put words in my mouth. Now I've read the article "dishonestly" because I called a backpedaling bigot a bigot nonetheless? "Interesting." I find disingenuous this attempt to say that something is "interesting" and "complex" when really what you've said is "maybe deep down he's not such a bad guy." Your other responses (e.g., repeating his condescending, PR-approved nonsense about gays who work in the community) indicate your willingness to inject moral ambiguity into behavior that is unambiguous. It is hate. And I doubt you would be so willing (or so brave) to do the same were we talking about a man who crosses the street to avoid people of a different race. That was my point, and it still stands.

[jobycom]

47. Exactly. You should read them.

I found the interview strikingly candid. So did you, or you wouldn't have commented on the hateful parts of it.

I never said he's a good guy, or that the comments redeem him. I never implied that. Read my words again, if you have the integrity to do so.

And again you imply I'm a bigot. I'm putting no words in your mouth, you are typing them onto the screen. "And I doubt you would be so willing (or so brave) to do the same were we talking about a man who crosses the street to avoid people of a different race." What else is that accusing me of?

For the record, I would say the same thing about this exact interview were he talking about race, sexual orientation, gender, religious belief, or anything else. He's not a likable guy, as I've said in several posts. Here's some more of my comments, all from above, that you haven't bothered reading.

Opening statement: "I'm not posting this to defend or condemn Hardaway, only because it's a strikingly candid interview. There's a lot of CYA, but there is a lot of insight into the mind of a bigot who is having to face his bigotry for the first time. Read all the way to the end, some of the most striking stuff is near the end. I imagine this will make some hate him more, some forgive him a little, and probably a few other responses. But mostly, I just think it's a fascinating insight, not just into Hardaway, but into the whole issue of tolerance and intolerance in today's society." Let's see, I called him a bigot, and explained quite clearly why I was posting the article.

Post 4#, in response to the same quote you posted: "Yeah, that part's not flattering to Hardaway, that's for sure."

Post 17, in response to your post: "I think anyone could find quotes to redeem or condemn him in this article. You chose to condemn (with justification). I chose to pick out a few quotes I thought showed the conflicts within him."

"Not a likable image of Hardaway." (You think that's ambiguous on my part?)

"I don't care one way or the other about Hardaway himself--he's just a vocalized part of a much larger issue."

Post 24: "He's not where he should be, but I see signs that maybe he's at least realizing he's not where he should be. At some point, he has to reconcile two irreconcilable beliefs. Maybe this leads to a positive change. Maybe not. I've said other places, I'm not defending Hardaway, I don't think he's likable in this interview. But I think there are interesting things in it."

------

Now, again I ask you, where did I say I liked Hardaway, where did I say this article redeemed him, and where did I show any bigotry? Have you read this far? Or have you simply crafted an answer in your mind that fits what you want to think I said, but has no relation to anything I've actually said?

[cboy4]

28. delete

addressed below

[myrna minx]

23. Whoa.

This guy is just bummed out because his ugly bigotry was exposed for all to see. I hope some day he understands how hurtful and horrendous his attitudes are. :puke:


That interview made me want to take a shower to wash all of the bigotry away. :puke:

[cboy4]

15. This is the part that gets me:

But you still don't accept their lifestyle?

"...I still don't condone what they do. I don't want to be a part of it and I still don't want to be around it.

============================

I wonder how Hardaway would feel if I put up this sign in his neighborhood?



Gee Mr. Hardaway, I'm opening myself up to a better understanding of who you negroes are, but . . .

He hasn't learned jack shit, and as a member of a minority group, he has a lot of effing nerve.

What a piece of shit! :puke:

[jobycom]

24. Contrast to this statement

Right now, learning. Learning that gay people are really no different than a lot of other people. Learning that they work hard, they do things in the community, they are responsible for building parks, rec centers, providing safe environments for kids, just things I had never associated with them before. has opened up my eyes to the gay population and what they do. I'm getting a lot of knowledge about them that I didn't have. Which is going to make me a better person. And if it doesn't, then I'm a damn fool.

---------

He's not where he should be, but I see signs that maybe he's at least realizing he's not where he should be. At some point, he has to reconcile two irreconcilable beliefs. Maybe this leads to a positive change. Maybe not.

I've said other places, I'm not defending Hardaway, I don't think he's likable in this interview. But I think there are interesting things in it.

[cboy4]

34. Yea and it's also "interesting" to read why Ku Klux Klan members

hate minorities. :eyes:

Hardaway contradicts himself all over the place because he can't remember one bigoted viewpoint to the next.

Here's the ironic bottom line - - - Hardaway has something in common with the KKK because of their mutual disdain for gay people.

Too bad no reporter has the guts to put it in those terms while questioning him.

[JackBeck]

35. I actually found the questions rather softball.

It would have been better if he asked him what his reaction would be if his son came home and told him he was gay.

Instead, were given the scenario that his son might get beat-up at school because of his father's comments.

[cboy4]

40. Absolutely. It was a star-struck "journalist" who was

clearly all impressed and intimidated interviewing someone famous. :eyes:

[wicket]

44. Well said

:thumbsup:

[underpants]

16. Tim lives in his own word

I know a lot of people who (collectively even) will never make near the money that he has and they do the same. The have things as they like them and don't want to hear about doing anything in any way other than how they want to. The world is their oyster and it is going to stay that way.

Not an excuse it's just that this approach to life is not at all strange in this day and time.

[k_jerome]

18. well that clinches it....hardaway has got to be....

i'm not even going to say it any more.

[Duncan Grant]

45. ...strikingly candid and complex?

I don't know about anyone else but I feel so much better about this whole ugly incident. The insight gained from the article was well worth the read. :sarcasm:

[jobycom]

48. Who said anything about anyone feeling better?

I posted this as an insight into the mind of a bigot being forced to face the consequences of his own bigotry. I said that in the OP, I said that throughout. Why do you feel that "strikingly candid and complex" equates to making you feel better about the situation? That wasn't the intention, stated or implied, of the post.

No sarcasm smilie for me, I said what I meant.

[Duncan Grant]

50. Why would you equivocate on a topic this serious? Your opening sentence says it all.

"I'm not posting this to defend or condemn Hardaway,..." Thanks for straddling the fence, jobycom.

The man is loathsome. That you would equivocate in the face of his blatant continued bigotry confuses me.

[jobycom]

51. I meant what I said and I said what I meant.

There's no equivocation, I stated clearly why I posted the article.

ANd if you can't understand the full interview, if you can't see that this man is in the early stages of soul-searching, you are blinded by something. Hate, ignorance, something. I'm not into hate. Hate is a waste of time and passion better spent on other things. Hardaway is just a name I walk away from. He doesn't matter one way or the other to me (I said that above, too,and didn't equivocate there, either). He's just one face of a larger problem, and the problem is all I give a damn about. But his comments in this interview show an crack in his bigotry. He's starting to see he was wrong. He may never fully realize it (I said that above, too, that he's not where he should be, may never get there, but he's showing that he at least realizes that). That's what change looks like. That's how you bring it about. You find people (not Hardaway, anybody) in that state of mind and you build on that.I've done that--I've worked on racists and bigots, gotten them to this stage, and gotten them to change. My parents, my spouse, friends in Mississippi where I grew up. I can't make you understand it. But I will say that if we don't learn to recognize opportuity for change, we'll never get that change.

[JackBeck]

53. He's not "soul-searching".

He's embarking on a p.r. campaign to save his career.

[jobycom]

57. One can do both, as he is. nt

[bullwinkle428]

31. So, is this a flat-out admission that his acceptance of that invitation

by the gay mayor of North Miami (I think that was the correct town) was nothing more than a PR stunt, and he has no intention of actually attempting to open his eyes on this issue?

[JackBeck]

54. Yes.

That others would take this interview as the beginnings of a mea culpa is completely hilarious.

[Duncan Grant]

46. There's one thing that's true about Hardaway: He still hates gay people.

The only complexity I saw was the lengths that some will go to to rationalize and justify their behavior. It's frightening when you consider his original remarks.

Gay people recognize this for what it is: damage control. No one should believe for one minute that anything substantial has changed -- no matter how hard Hardaway tries to make his bigotry palatable.

[jobycom]

52. Well then you saw what I saw, but you didn't see everything I saw.

You're exactly right, he's going through extreme lengths to rationalize and justify his behavior, and as I said in the OP, there's a lot of CYA going on. And he's revealing a lot more about himself than he realizes. The part I found "strikingly candid" are the parts where he's off his PR script, were you can see he's trying hard to hang on to his hate even while he's trying to work in the PR statements. I didn't find Hardaway candid, I found the interview candid--if this had been a puff piece, Johnson would have edited out the stuff that made his friend look bad. Johnson even opens the article by saying he was throwing his friend a life preserver, then implying that he didn't think his friend really took advantage of it. I fond that candid, not Hardaway.

But there ae interesting points where Hardaway sees problems in what he's saying. He doesn't "hate," but he can't completely reconcile that comment with his continued homophobia. When Johnsons says "What if you found out I was gay?" (A cheap device that could only work on someone who had never really thought about an issue, I might add), you can see Hardaway not sure what to feel. He switches back and forth in a couple of sentences, admitting it would hurt their friendship, then squirming as he realized what he's said, then coming up with a lame "We'd be friends, but I wouldn't trust you."

That's what I found so intriguing. Hardaway wants to hold on to his old bigotry, that's clear. But he also wants to hold on to his image of himself as someone who doesn't hate people, as a nice guy. And you can see he can't do that in this interview. He sees he can't do that. This is a man who is unsure what he believes. He doesn't want to change his beliefs (and probably won't), but he's starting to see the problems with those beliefs.

I'm the type of person who is constantly trying to change people's minds. I get in trouble at work all the time for trying to convert my fundie bosses. I don't make much progress, but I make some. I haven't changed their minds, I don't think, but they are more cautious about what they say, at least. And just my being there--an avid atheist, vegetarian, pony-tail wearing guy who carries a purse--amongst all these straight-laced fundies has made them change their opinions, at least a little. I've done this in my own family, and with friends. My fundie mother is borderline agnostic now, and wears her Kerry teeshirt all over the coast--a rather conservative place. My spouse has become a flaming feminist liberal, and she's the daughter of an old Air Force master sargent. I haven't made much headway with her father, I'll admit, but I've made some. He's a racist, homophobic bastard, but now when he uses the N word in front of me he immediately apologizes. Very minor step, but if you knew this guy, it would seem less minor.

My point in all that is that I've gotten a lot of people to change their minds and hearts, from small degrees to seachanges. And in every case, I had to get them to the point Hardaway is in that interview. It's like breaking a rock--you look for that little crack, and that's what you work on. Hardaway has cracked. He's got a small opening. Imagine having him next year come out and say, honestly, "I see how wrong I was." People like Michael Medved are left hanging if that happens. Players in the NBA who are now privately saying "Way to go, Tim!" will shake their heads and say "What's going on here? Am I missing something?" THAT's where you make progress. Not by saying "I hate him forevermore no matter what happens in any way." That's just more status quo. If we all liked the status quo, we wouldn't be here in the first place.

I guess no one will get this post, either. Luckily, I'm supposed to be gone most of the weekend, so I won't see the further accusations of bigotry and just not getting it. Lucky me. :)