Why I say "ugh" to Kucinich

[cali]

This is from kos.

When talking about Kucinich, I usually leave it at "ugh". I've found that much kinder than actually getting into Kucinich's record. But his supporters are OUTRAGED(!) that I would be so dismissive, and they DEMAND(!) I explain myself.

Honestly, it would be better for your guy if I didn't. But since you all insist...

Kucinich has never proven broad electoral viability. How many presidents have been elected straight from the House of Representatives? Kucinich could gain respect by running and winning in something a little more competitive than an urban 58 percent Kerry district.

Did you know that Kucinich was once ardently anti-choice and anti-stem cell research? From a 2002 Nation article:
One thing you won't find on Kucinich's website, though, is any mention of his opposition to abortion rights. In his two terms in Congress, he has quietly amassed an anti-choice voting record of Henry Hyde-like proportions. He supported Bush's reinstatement of the gag rule for recipients of US family planning funds abroad. He supported the Child Custody Protection Act, which prohibits anyone but a parent from taking a teenage girl across state lines for an abortion. He voted for the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which makes it a crime, distinct from assault on a pregnant woman, to cause the injury or death of a fetus. He voted against funding research on RU-486. He voted for a ban on dilation and extraction (so-called partial-birth) abortions without a maternal health exception. He even voted against contraception coverage in health insurance plans for federal workers--a huge work force of some 2.6 million people (and yes, for many of them, Viagra is covered). Where reasonable constitutional objections could be raised--the lack of a health exception in partial-birth bans clearly violates Roe v. Wade, as the Supreme Court ruled in Stenberg v. Carhart--Kucinich did not raise them; where competing principles could be invoked--freedom of speech for foreign health organizations--he did not bring them up. He was a co-sponsor of the House bill outlawing all forms of human cloning, even for research purposes, and he opposes embryonic stem cell research. His anti-choice dedication has earned him a 95 percent position rating from the National Right to Life Committee, versus 10 percent from Planned Parenthood and 0 percent from NARAL.

His transformation to being pro-choice happened literally overnight -- a week after he announced his 2004 presidential bid. One moment he was virulently anti choice, the next he was a staunch defender.

<snip>

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/23/113236/176

And yes, I largely agree with kos.

[Warpy]

1. His miraculous conversion to a pro choice position

always alarmed me, too. I don't trust him on choice. Oh, he's great on economics and men's issues, but his record of trying to push half the population of this country back into reproductive slavery disqualifies him for my vote.

I could not have crossed the abolitionist line in the 1850s, either.

Fortunately for the female half of the population, he is unable to develop a national organization, something a serious candidate needs to be able to do. It's nice having someone voice kitchen table economics, but that's where it stops.

[cali]

3. Well put, Warpy!

I admire his economic stance to- or what I know of it. That's where I part ways with kos.

[stillcool]

2. here's another....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x273749

[DURHAM D]

4. Thanks for posting.

Glad kos did the research and posted Kucinich history.

I usually ignore the Kucinich support threads and assumed someone would eventually get around to informing his faithful followers.

[WilliamPitt]

5. .

:popcorn:

[helderheid]

9. hand me some of that. n/t

[cali]

10. OK, Will but beyond the popcorn munching

what do you think of kos' rant? I know you like Dennis, but I thought kos brought up some valid criticism- and not just the abortion stuff. I've always thought that creating a dept of peace was a pointless endeavor. It would simply be either redundant state dept stuff or another beaurocratic agency. Or both.

[Bucky]

65. I was about to jump on the OP for an unnecessarily rude headline, but your post is worse

The popcorn icon can be a uniquely obnoxious response to a thread. It is simultaneously pointed, dismissive, and fun--so long as you're not the one being popcorned. Sometimes there are threads that are in need of just such a pinch of obnoxiousness. Self indulgent threads, trolls, and flamebait that are equally out of sync from the DU boards' purpose of discussing political issue need a good popcorning.

Popcorn is, of course, what you eat at the movies; it's what you enjoy when you watch all the fireworks and pizzazz of pointless, escapist entertainment that, once over, doesn't need to be taken seriously. Popcorn in a thread says "I'm not taking you seriously" or, more to the point, announces to other readers of the thread, "you shouldn't take seriously anything said here."

Used properly, I'd agree. Threads about how male circumcision prevents HIV or others speculating on how the omnipresent Rove always manages to arrange for a celebrity scandal or meteor shower in order to distract us from BFFE crimes are the kind of lightweight, low calorie, high fibre discussions that are little but light entertainment.

But when a thread delves into serious subjects like a presidential candidate's opinions (whether presented fairly or not) a popcorn post is nothing but pollution; a smug announcement that you have nothing to say, nothing to offer, and that it's terribly important for other people to know that you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. To participate in a serious discussion solely for the pleasure of announcing that you will not participate further in the discussion because everyone else is being shallow is churlish and bratty.

If you don't want to get in on it, don't get in on it. We all avoid certain discussions. To take the time to tell others that expressing their opinions about Democratic party politics is a waste of time is just rude.

[WilliamPitt]

68. Deep breath

Because one person's heavy, serious, all-important topic is another's fodder.

My Kucinich experiences make topics like this interesting and entertaining, because I worked for him and battled through the flame wars in 2004.

Ask yourself: do you get annoyed by the "Why aren't DUers talking about *insert topic*??!!11"

I do. So do you, I'm sure

Your post above is one like that, IMHO. I mean no challenge or offense. My opinions and experiences are my own, as are yours, and if I want to signal my intention to take a full-observer popcorn-munch stance for a Dennis thread, I've earned the right to do so. I've earned that right with oak-leaf clusters.

You're right...but I'm more right on this one.

:toast:

[geek tragedy]

69. Asdf.

:popcorn:

[Annces]

6. This may be related to his Catholic background

I don't think it is reason to throw him overboard. I think his religious beliefs are deeply rooted and sincere.

[blm]

14. They are. He evolved on the issue as I did. I grew up the same way he did

and in the same area. My aunt was one of his caregivers at the children's home he stayed at when his parents couldn't afford to care for him and his siblings.

I converted from conservative Democrat to liberal Democrat AFTER I left Cleveland area. Though my journey to the left preceded Dennis' by twenty years, I never doubted that he had the heart of a liberal and that he'd come around eventually. I supported him throughout those years even when he was labeled a DINO.

Dennis is a reflection of the conservative, first generation American, Catholic neighborhoods which he represents.

Sorry, but the west side of Cleveland is NOT the west side of Manhattan. It takes time to shake off some of the teachings, but those teachings also emphasized charity for the sick and poor above all else.

[MonkeyFunk]

15. He didn't so much

"evolve" as much as he did an overnight 180 when he last ran for President.

[blm]

16. I disagree. It was described that way, but I doubt very much it happened overnight.

.

[MonkeyFunk]

42. In 2002

he had a 71% approval rating from the National Right to Life Committee

a year later, he had a 100% NARAL rating - coincidentally, just before he ran for President.

[blm]

43. I understand. But still believe it coincided more with his spiritual turn

when he began to listen to other spiritual voices like Marianne Williamson instead of just the local parish priest and bishop.

[Cobalt Violet]

7. Ha Ha , He still has my vote.

And Kos is an ass.

[MamaBear]

13. Me, too.

No other candidate has put forth something as necessary as a Department of Peace. Let the hawks have their own; I'll stick with Dennis.

People do change their minds about issues. I guess that's only okay when it's one of their favorites doing the ff. :eyes:

[Orrex]

21. If you're speaking of the Kerry-worshippers, consider:

Kerry's "flip-flops," such as they were, involved changes of opinion on votes or decisions. Equating those to Kucinich's massive shifts of view on fundamental matters of social policy is a bit off-base.

[MamaBear]

24. I was not speaking to the Kerry worshippers, actually.

I was speaking of all partisans backing a candidate and the double standard they apply to candidates they don't like.

Why people hate peace is beyond me, but that's just me. To hate Dennis is to hate the only candidate that has put forth a real plan for peace. There's more to peace than the cessation of organized violence, and that's a lot more important to me than his stated views on choice. Since he has declared his change of heart, I think his record has been consistent.

[cali]

29. What bullshit.

first of all, I don't hate Kucinich, and I rather doubt kos does either. I don't particularly admire him. I don't think he's effective in the House, and I certainly don't think he's even remotely viable as a candidate for national office or even statewide office. He's not the only candidate that's put forward a plan for peace.

And the claim that because one doesn't like Dennis as a candidate, one hates peace, is so ludicrous it deserves to held in contempt.

[Orrex]

30. Oh. Then never mind!

It's just that the "flip-flopper" label is so routinely applied to Kerry that I'm afraid that I assumed that you were talking about him (and his advocates). Sorry about that.

Incidentally, outside of the sad fact that we are a culture in love with war and destruction, I have no idea why a Department of Peace (I believe that's what Kucinich termed it) wouldn't be a good idea.

And I think the problem is that even if/though he's been consistent since his change of heart, there's still an unavoidable subtext of sneakiness following such a drastic shift.

[MamaBear]

38. I understand.

I've been through similar changes in outlook in my own life; I know they are possible and I know they are real.

Americans still see war as an entitlement: America is entitled to make war when ____________. People fill in the blank differently, but people who don't support war in any case but the most extreme one, that is, an armed invasion, are few and far between.

Dennis seems to understand that peace will require more work, more vigilance and create more frustration than just going someplace else and killing folks and smashing stuff. It's going to require true consultation, where everybody's needs are at least addressed, if not satisfied.

I don't give a wet slap if Dennis is not a "viable" candidate. In this stage of the process, I still have the right (I hope) to speak up for the candidate that will best represent my interests in the national government.

I understand Kerry's supporters' sensitivity. Sorry if I gave you a bad moment there.

[AnOhioan]

49. Agree 100%

I have noticed a few bloggers coming down on DK. I tend to ignore them and just go about my business of informing friends and associates of the truth of the '08 campaign. More often than not, they find themselves agreeing with me that DK has the best grasp of the issues. If enough folks can put aside their preconceived notions we could actually have a President who could turn this country around quickly, not by the baby steps espoused by the media-appointed frontrunners.

[Eric J in MN]

72. I voted for Kucinich in 2004 and probably will in 2008.

(in the Democratic primaries)

[Cobalt Violet]

74. Is anyone stupid enough to let kos dictate who to vote for?

Maybe I don't want an answer to that.:hi:

[jobycom]

8. I have the same issues with, but I do like what he brings to the discussion on other issues.

Especially Iraq, but also on impeachment and prosecution.

He's just not viable enough as a presidential candidate for me to worry about his shortcomings, to be honest. We can use his voice on the issues he's good on, ignore him on issues where he's less reliable, and not have to worry about him going anywhere but the House floor. I mean, if he had really wanted to have a strong impact on the politics of this nation, he could have tried to move up in the House leadership, or run for Senate or state office (he could have found a Republican to oppose in Ohio). The fact that he didn't speaks to his ambitions and abilities, to me. He's not what I would see as presidential material, but he is a strong, intelligent voice on several issues.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. I'll keep him anyway. If I have to choose between a liberal

anti-choicer and a Repug one, I'll choose the liberal one. At least you can reason with that one, and they are better on all other issues than the Repug.

[MonkeyFunk]

12. he also

once supported a flag-burning amendment to the constitution.

[Parche]

17. DENNIS

I think Dennis is ok........

[Seabiscuit]

18. That is a substantive reason for Kucinich being unelectable. Sadly, the frivolous reason

will always be that he looks like one of those little critters that just walked off the set of the bar scene in Spielberg's original Star Wars.

[Orrex]

22. Or an extra in Lucas' "Close Encounters of the Third Kind."

:evilgrin:

[LittleClarkie]

39. Or a body double for the roaming gnome

:evilgrin:

[Seabiscuit]

57. Should one of us start a poll on the subject?

Having just checked out your website, I'm so sorry your heart was broken after Bush stole the 2004 election from Kerry (Ohio, etc.). We were all pretty bummed about that - I even quit reading the usual forums in DU and hid out indulging in inanities in the Lounge for about 6 months.

[LittleClarkie]

26. You almost made me spit my energy bar across the room

I kinda like Dennis, but God that was funny. Now I have the giggles and it's all your fault.

[Seabiscuit]

34. Sorry, and excuuuuuuuuse me. Here - have my energy bar.

[Junkdrawer]

19. Why I say "ugh" to kos

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/2/23/113236/176

[saltpoint]

20. In the final hours of any fight I want Dennis Kucinich on my side.

I also want him on my side in the House of Representatives. I want him on my side years ago if I'm a citizen of Cleveland, Ohio.

I want him on my side if I'm not one of the richer folks Bush's tax cuts benefit.

And I want him playing on my team because I think he understands the historical role of the true citizen, the heart of public service.

[Seabiscuit]

23. Agreed. Just because he'll never be President is no reason to ditch him

from our team. We need him right where he is.

[saltpoint]

28. Hello Seabiscuit. Yep. I feel that had I been lucky enough to have

known Dennis Kucinich as a friend from high school days that he would have been among the rare, loyal keepers of that time.

Just a hunch, but that's how it seems.

I can picture Duke Cunningham being Duke Cunningham but I can never picture Dennis Kucinich being Duke Cunningham.

[Seabiscuit]

31. Agreed. In toto.

[Annces]

33. Me too

[Radical Activist]

25. It didn't happen overnight.

That's unfair. Kucinich started taking more pro-choice votes before he started his campaign. He had a 100% NARAL rating in 2003.
Kucinich comes from a Catholic background and has deep spiritual beliefs about the sacred value of all human life. Its understandable that he would struggle with the issue.

Does Kos really think Condi Rice is the Secretary of Peace? What a joke. The Department of Peace is a good idea. The government needs to refocus its efforts in this area.

His new age spiritualist views do attract a limited number of people, so that's a fair electability point.

[MonkeyFunk]

35. And in 2002

he had a 71% rating from the National Right to Life Committee.

In 2003, he started to run for President.

[Radical Activist]

60. That rating

reflects that he started to change in 2002. In previous years his rating was even worse.

[SaveElmer]

27. I don't always agree with Kos...but in this case he is right...

The only reason this type of pandering is not criticized is because he is kissing left wing heiney...any other politician would be raked over the coals for that kind of flip flop

[Greeby]

32. When a candidate has a platform like this

1. Universal Health Care
2. International Cooperation: US out of Iraq, UN in
3. Jobs and Withdrawal from NAFTA and WTO
4. Repeal of the "Patriot Act"
5. Guaranteed Quality Education, Pre-K Through College
6. Full Social Security Benefits at Age 65
7. Right-to-Choose, Privacy and Civil Rights
8. Balance Between Workers and Corporations
9. Environmental Renewal and Clean Energy
10. Restored Rural Communities and Family Farms

And somehow that's all for naught because he changed his mind on choice? An issue which, with all the above to fix, he's going to have no time for anyway? :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

37. how successful has he been

in championing those causes in Congress?

[cali]

40. I don't agree with SaveElmer on much but

I do agree that Dennis panders just as much as any other candidate. His record in the House is woeful. He's big on talking and lousy on legislation or amendments. Compare him to Bernie Sanders who's just as left as Dennis on all the issues above and who got more amendments passed than any other Rep, repuke or dem from the years 1996 to 2006. Give me action over words anyday.

[Cobalt Violet]

73. I love that platform.

The other candidate don't have a very defined platform at all. They don't want to state where they stand on many issues, yet somehow they're the popular ones in our party. We're just going to end up with the same old fashion corporatist free trader.

[thethinker]

36. Kos is full of himself

He is always worried what the MSM thinks of him. He has been way behind on every issue. No one could call him a visionary. I can remember when certain subjects were not allowed to be discussed on his site because the MSM might not like it. His thinking comes around, way slow, after it is politically correct according to the MSM.

Kucinish, on the other hand, has been way ahead on almost every issue. I remember when national health care sounded like an impossible dream. Now even republicans are for it. And he was right to vote against the invasion of Iraq. Even the republicans agree it was a mistake.

[Beelzebud]

55. A lot of the people that post there are too.

Daily Kos has a fraternity mentality to it. They are the cool kids, and everyone else is lame. At least thats the gist I get over there.

[LittleClarkie]

64. Not to mention his "foot in mouth" disease which surfaces on a regular basis

On the war, on women's issues, he's gotten people mad at them, only to make things worse when he tries to explain and ends up insulting people further.

Some over there would say to each criticism how lucky we are to have DailyKos. Yes, he founded it. But it is a gestalt entity. It is not just him. It is the sum total of all the posters. Without them, he'd be nearly nothing in the political world.

So I would suggest to him that he not shoot himself in the foot.

[sinkingfeeling]

41. Dennis will always get my primary vote in any presidental election.

Then I will be forced to vote for the Democratic candidate chosen by the party insiders in the general election.

[leftofthedial]

44. so you don't like his record on reproductive rights

and . . . ?

[cali]

45. Nah, it's more than that.

The more I see of him, the less I like him. I think he panders to his base just as much as any other candidate. I don't care for his spiritual crap anymore than I like religious stuff coming from Hillary or Obama. I don't think he's been an effective rep.

[leftofthedial]

46. who do you like?

[cali]

48. Gore. Yeah, I know he's not in the running at the moment

but he's who I really like. I like parts of others. I like Edwards emphasis on poverty and Obama for having been right about the Iraq War and for the energy that he sparks.

[LSK]

47. but then he voted AGAINST Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act

So did he have a change of heart?

http://votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?vote_id=3510&can_id=BC032003

http://votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=BC032003

[gravity]

50. I really just don't trust Kucinich as president

While his intentions are good, he is too idealistic which makes me doubt if he even knows what he is doing. The only leadership position he ever held was mayor, which didn't last long and wasn't very successful. I would have to see him in an effective leadership role before I even consider supporting him for the most powerful person in the world.

The Department of Peace? Its called the State Department idiot. Feel good Orwellian language is not going to change foreign policy.

[Annces]

51. It would address inner city violence and domestic violence

It is much different than the State Dept. It seeks ways to develop peace in our society.

http://www.thepeacealliance.org/content/view/76/68/

[Beelzebud]

52. So the gist from Kos is that Dennis is a flip-flopper?

Why doesn't he just come out and call him a flip flopper for changing his mind on one issue.

[The Blue Flower]

53. Two other disappointments

I've posted before about my disappointment, watching from inside, at how the 2004 campaign was run. I rode in a few cars with Dennis when he was being driven around to appearances in my city, and listened to some up close conversations. One person felt passionately about getting to the bottom of what really happened on 9-11. He asked Dennis to please get behind calling for a real, independent investigation. Dennis said he didn't buy any of the conspiracy theories and therefore would not. Then, after the voting fiasco in Ohio in November, I emailed Dennis and asked him to please fight for getting the truth out about the vote count. After all, it was his turf. He wrote back, "We lost. All we can do is accept it, pick up the pieces, and move on." I couldn't believe it. He always refers to himself as a fighter. This is a fighter? And, I agree, the date-getting aspect of the campaign was pretty pathetic.

[EndElectoral]

54. Then again he doesn't need to apologize for his vote on the IWR

He's more in line with me on the Health Care issue or Iraq than any I've seen. He does have some explanation to deal with on the abortion issue. But to me Universal Health Care and Iraq trump those currently with me. I understand not with all here, but then that's why not all candidates have the same priorities.

[zulchzulu]

56. Kucinich has never been a serious contender, but I like what he says

I've seen him speak and he makes many valid points. He's not "presidential" by American standards imho, but I'm glad he's running and I enjoy discussing issues with Kucinich supporters in the street.

Kos can kiss my patootie...

[meldroc]

58. Hmm. If the anti-choice stuff is true, Kucinich just lost 200 cool points with me.

Not just because of being anti-choice, but because of the 180 degree flip-flop at the most convenient time for him. Totally fucking hypocritical. I CANNOT STAND WEATHERVANE POLITICIANS!!! That's why I'm ragging on Hilary, and that's why I'm disturbed by hearing this about Kucinich. Looks like I'll be giving my money to Obama now.

[AnOhioan]

59. Really? No "weathervane politicians" for you?

Yet you will contribute to a candidate that sucks up to AIPAC. Now granted, most politicians do. And I am disappointed in most politicians.

DK gets a pass from me on the choice issue, can any of us really, without a doubt, know what the process was that he went through in changing his mind? I give him the benefit of the doubt.

Appeasing the Israeli gov't is another matter entirely. Almost all of the contenders are busy spouting platitudes to AIPAC in order to secure the money and the goodwill of that organization. Dennis takes no money from them, never has to my knowledge.

That fact alone puts him above the others in my book.

We agree on Hillary, she is not who I want as our standard bearer. As far as Obama is concerned, I have not seen or heard much from him that makes me want to support him. I wish it were otherwise but as of right now, I cannot envision getting excited about his candidacy.

[TabulaRasa]

61. I agree Kucinich is not a viable candidate

for national or state office. And I certainly oppose any right-wing positions he may have (including being anti-choice) but this post by Markos just pisses me off. He may very well be embarassed by DK representing the Democratic party. But I'm embarassed having MM represent the Dems. I've seen that spindly, weasly, little dweeb on TV. Who the fuck is he to be embarassed by anyone? And what a load of horseshit his bit about DK's faith being dangerous because it actually impacts policy (through a Department of Peace) is. There is only the most tenuous connection between the two ... especially in comparison to other more virulent impositions of religion in the public sphere, by candidates MM supports. And while it may be silly politically to run on such a platform, you'd have to be positively deranged to think it is a bad idea to have a department dedicated to pushing the world and individuals towards peaceful solutions to problems ... reforming the UN to make it a better agent for peaceful resolution, finding ways to impart the values of non-violence to youth, etc. And MM should be beaten within an inch of his life for suggesting that the State Department is such an organization (I recognize the irony of my suggesting violence, while advocating a department of peace.) But that is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard. Suggesting that Condoleeza Rice or even Madeleine Albright are agents of peace, should earn you a one-way ticket to the nearest insane asylum. FU MM.

[cali]

67. seems to me you need your own

mini department of peace. I find your outrage over a blog posting bizarro. What's more, a department of peace would end up a beaurocrtic mess, and under someone like bushco it would be positively diabloical.

[burythehatchet]

62. YESSSSSS! Always great to be vindicated for my entusiastic support of DK

[burythehatchet]

63. MARKOS sucks ass!

[Bucky]

66. The post brings up some interesting points worth considering about Kucinich, but....

Dismissing a well respected candidate with nothing but an "ugh" is just being an asshole.

[TheWatcher]

70. "ugh" Is usually the word that comes when I see you've posted something

But this is a masterpiece. You've outdone yourself.

Your road to irrelevance is complete.

Good Job!

[cali]

71. LOL!

I could give a rat's ass that you, whoever you are, (and I don't think I can recall anything you've ever posted) think I'm irrelevant.

Have a nice day! Or not.

[AngryAmish]

75. Why does Kuchinich threaten some people?

What are their motives? Are they afraid of peace? Or getting cut off from the gravy train?