Has anyone ever asked a anti choice person this question? and what did they say?

[southernleftylady]

Well if you are pro life are you for universal health care? what was their answer?
Edited to add another question for them...
how many adopted children do you have

[WinkyDink]

1. They are "pro-birth." Or, to be precise, they are "pro-control-of-

women's-bodies."

[Buzz Clik]

8. ugh. Pro-birth, yeah I'll buy that. Controlling women's bodies... well, not really.

They don't like abortions but that doesn't mean they want to control anything but abortions. Women do a lot more with their bodies than have abortions.

[alarimer]

38. Yes they do want to control our bodies.

Most are also opposed to birth control and sex in general but especially if you are not married. A good portion are also anti-feminist and want women to stay home and have babies.

[Buzz Clik]

55. No doubt some feel that way.

The vast, vast majority of anti-abortion types are not interested in the slightest in your sex life or whether or not you work outside the home.

[alarimer]

57. I diagree strongly with this.

Most are dyed-in-the-wool social conservatives who never saw a gay person or Democrat they wouldn't hate. I spent years among these people in Alabama. I know what I have seen. They hate liberals, gays, Democrats and atheists. A very large part of the fundamentalist agenda is about controlling women.

[Buzz Clik]

58. I guess we have different experiences.

[raccoon]

62. I disagree. Most of them IMO are against abortion because they think

the woman should be "punished" for having sex by being forced to carry the baby to term.

They might not SAY that but it's what they think.

[TCJ70]

69. I disagree. Most pro-choice people are for abortion because...

...they want to murder babies.

They might not SAY that but it's what they think.

Hrm...it looks just as bad the other way around, too.

[raccoon]

70. Well, if we just made abortion illegal again, then there wouldn't be any more

abortions. :sarcasm:

[TCJ70]

72. I was referring to your assertion that you know...

...how most pro-life/anti-choice people think.

[WinkyDink]

75. Ye shall know them by their protests, their rants, their bullying tactics, their desire to

overturn a Supreme Court law, their attempts to impose their will on others.

By definition, "pro-CHOICE" people want no such CONTROL over others.

[TCJ70]

76. The way raccoon is making it sound...

...he believes that not liking abortion = wanting complete control over another person. I don't see it that way.

[ismnotwasm]

85. Look.

I am perfectly capable of becoming pregnant. Making abortion illegal can control, has great potential to control over what I do with my body. If you're quibbling over the word "complete" I'm sorry.

This is why I prefer the term "forced birthers" over "prolifers"

They would Force an Unwanted Pregnancy to term. With everything that implies, physically, economically, mentally, socially. Sounds fairly complete to me.

[raccoon]

79. Most of them I've run into in RL are like that. nt

[WinkyDink]

77. If they wanted to "murder babies", they would wait until there were, you know, BABIES.

[Scout]

83. "vast, vast majority of anti-abortion types"

gee, how many people do you know? you actually know the vast, vast majority of people who are anti-choice?

[WinkyDink]

73. They don't want women to have reproductive rights. That is basically the accepted language I used.

[thereismore]

2. I did! Answer: life is a God-given right. Health care is a privilige. It's your

responsibility to stay well. If you are born with a disability or a problem, it's the function of the Church to be charitable to you. If not, you gotta suffer like Job for God's glory. I am serious.

[southernleftylady]

5. OMFG.. this is what we are dealing with how can they say that about an innocent child..

as they often throw out... jeeze these people are nuts

[LSK]

3. I assume they would instantly switch to saying "thats communism"

[TomClash]

4. Their answer is

"you don't love America, you support the homosexual agenda and you should just buy health care or get a better job."

[Mme. Defarge]

6. FYI,

I am anti-abortion on demand, anti-war, anti-death penalty, and for universal health care and other social safety nets.

[southernleftylady]

7. I respect you for being consistent! its those who are anti choice pro war pro gun anti universal..

health care I don't get..

[Mme. Defarge]

9. Also,

I am pro birth control, and pro gun control.

[IndianaJones]

10. what does "abortion on demand" mean? nt.

[momster]

13. Shorthand for "No Restrictions"

any abortion, at any time, for any reason.

[CTyankee]

33. Roe v. Wade said that states could impose certain restrictions in later

months of the pregnancy, so I think the "no restrictions" argument is mostly a straw man. Late term abortions are exceedingly rare and done for extremely critical cases where the woman's life is threatened. I know, because my daughter had pre-eclampsia in her pregnancy. The only way to save the life of the woman in that situation is to end the pregnancy. Fortunately, she was close enough to full term that an emergency C section was done and she and the baby were fine, but if it had been in her 4th or 5th month thatmight not have been the case. Surely, you would not condemn my daughter to certain death in such a circumstance...

[momster]

43. He asked what "Abortion on Demand Meant"

I'm simply answering. I took no position and have no comment. I condemn no one to anything...except Bush/Cheney to the Hague.

[CTyankee]

50. Sorry, you are right. Thanks! n/t

[gollygee]

28. How else would people have abortions if people didn't "demand" them?

would they be given out randomly? By lottery? What bullshit right-wing language you use.

[CTyankee]

30. May I ask you if you are in favor of laws forbidding abortion?

And if so, how do you square your prolife agenda with the fact that if abortion is made illegal, abortions would still happen, they would simply be unsafe and kill or maim women (along with their fetus)?

[Scout]

84. no one should have to demand an abortion....

a polite request should be the only thing required! (well, besides payment afterwards)

[niyad]

11. this is my statement to them: "since you are pro-life, you are OBVIOUSLY against the war, and

against the death penalty, correct? you aren't? then you are nothing but a hypocrite."

I had this made up into stickers, since we have a "respect life" license plate in this state--almost always on the car of some republican (usually spotted with their "suppport the troops" magnets and bushco stickers

[DangerDave921]

12. ??

I don't get the connection between the issue of abortion and the issue of universal healthcare.

[southernleftylady]

14. are they more "pro birth" or "pro life".. if they want these children to be born..

then they should be willing to make sure that thier live a health life.. im sick of these people who are more pro birth and dont care what happens after the fetus makes it into the world

[DangerDave921]

16. sorry

You can care about life and still have a principled argument against universal healthcare.

[niyad]

17. help me out here. what is the principled argument against universal health care?

[thereismore]

18. My evangelical friends say that it's STEALING when one pays and another benefits. nt

[LiberalFighter]

23. They have no concept of benefiting from more income and better health.

If they only had to pay 1 or 2% extra in taxes a year instead of how much for health insurance? Now I don't know how much it would take for single payer universal but seems like a good start. How much does good health insurance cost a family? $700-$1500 a month?

[thereismore]

40. Math is too sciency. Faith is stronger. nt

[niyad]

29. tell your evangelical friends that many of us think that tax-exempt religious buildings, etc

are STEALING from the rest of us. bet they don't look at things that way.

I, for one, am sick and tired of all the free-loading churches--who use up our civic resources and sit on millions and millions in real estate, etc., without paying a cent. THAT'S stealing.

[CTyankee]

35. Don't they pay Medicare taxes? For that matter, don't they pay for

the Fire Department evenif they never have a fire? What about roads that they might never use but that some people use every day? Reductio ad absurdum...

[thereismore]

41. They say Fire dept. should be paid from voluntary local contributions, and staffed by volunteers.

I'm not kidding.

[CTyankee]

52. Well, then, roads and police. What about them?

At some point, these guys have to be confronted and just hammered on their stupidity. They have no credibility in the marketplace of ideas. They are just plain stupid.

[thereismore]

59. Police is legit spending. According to the Bible, the role of the government is to

punish the evildoers, so police, courts, prisons, gas chambers, are all legitimate spending of tax money. Health care, no. Roads should probably be paid for by people who want to use them - not everybody. How they want to do that and make it work is beyond me.

[CTyankee]

61. The Bible can be interpreted in different ways. For every argument the RW

has, a counter argument can be made using scripture. Which is why we don't have a theocratic form of government (yet) and have until recently been using the "promote the general welfare" rubric of the preamble to the Constitution to guide us in making public policy, e.g. public schools.

[thereismore]

64. Right you are. That's why they really hate the "general welfare" clause. They do. nt

[CTyankee]

82. Yeah, these are the same people who distorted what Adam Smith said

in "The Wealth of Nations" about the "invisible hand." It has been refuted time and time again by scholars who assert, with good arguments, that Adam Smith was very concerned about the poor, especially the spinners, and how free trade hurt them economically. So the framers were in good company with their concern about the general welfare of the people...

[Occulus]

36. I thought they were supposed to call that "charity" n/t

[thereismore]

39. That's what I said. They say it's not charity if you are forced to pay (taxes). nt

[TCJ70]

66. That makes sense...

...considering the definition of "charity".

However, if your friends were really evangelicals (I doubt that anyone has actually said the stealing thing to the poster, forgive me for my cynicism), they would know that Jesus also said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

EDIT: Couldn't get my link to work...hrm

[kineneb]

37. then tell them to go read Matthew 25:34-46

because caring for all is exactly what Jesus wanted. It is un-Christian for them to allow the sick and poor to suffer. Tell them that they will go to hell if they are against universal health care! That ought to fix their little red wagon...

The Buddha said: To care for the sick is to care for me.

[thereismore]

42. But God said Thou shalt not steal. End of story. You are making too much sense. nt

[DangerDave921]

20. OK

I'm just saying people can argue that universal healthcare is too expensive, or not cost-effective, or will result in longer wait periods, or that it will cause a decrease in new meds being developed, etc. There is an argument against universal healthcare. Not saying I agree with any of these points, but they do exist. So I just don't see how you relate the issues of abortion and universal healthcare. They are completely unrelated.

[niyad]

22. and all of those arguments are BS.

universal health care and women's reproductive rights are hallmarks of a civilized society.

[southernleftylady]

47. just watched a great movie you need to see... Sicko rent it tonight nt

[sutz12]

53. UHC and abortion are not unrelated to a fundie..

They will argue that UHC will lead to publicly funded abortions. Probably true, since there isn't a good way to avoid that. Much like it was defeated back in the day because racists thought they would have to integrate their hospitals. :shrug:

[TCJ70]

67. I'm sick of people who are for the government...

...taking MORE out of everyones checks and don't care about people who are already underpaid.

[MrCoffee]

15. Your questions presume consistency of opinion and thought...

which is always a bad idea when you're talking about people.

How many DUers oppose the death penalty, except for child rapists?

People can separate the choice argument from other equivalent issues on an emotional level.

[NOLALady]

19. When they said adoption was an option,

I asked if they had any idea how many minority children are available for adoption?

[alarimer]

56. They are racists- they want more white babies to be available for adoption

They do not care about the kids. minority and otherwise, who are languishing in foster care. If they were truly good people, they would be clamoring to adopt all those kids too.

[kywildcat]

21. I don't ask anti abortion people anything

Last time I engaged one-I told them that Roe v Wade passed 20 years to late- and the proof was standing in front of me.

[water]

25. That's not going to change anyone's mind (in fact it's just nasty and vicious)...

...it's just going further cause them to incorrectly equate "abortion" with "death of a human being".

[kywildcat]

27. I have found them to be unwavering in their

their belief that abortion (for everyone) is immoral, as am I in my belief that women are more than capable of choosing for themselves. It is a waste of time to engage people in debate-when they are blinded by religious or political beliefs.
As to the mean-I can be, when my personal space is invaded and I'm manipulated into a debate by some rabid idiot telling me I'm going to rot in hell for walking by a planned parenthood clinic.

[water]

31. Well, I changed my views!

I used to be pro-life, then I realized that I should be against women having a period using that logic.

[Glenda]

48. LOL!!

:spray:

[water]

24. I'm pro-choice...

...but the difference would be one requires forcing others to pay for it (universal healthcare).

[niyad]

34. universal health care is a hallmark of a civilized society. my taxes pay

for a LOT of things I don't want--war, the bushies, halliburton, blackwater, and all the repukes.

I would far rather pay for health care than that garbage.

and, as a society, we pay for children who are born to mothers who cannot take care of them, who don't want them, etc.

[southernleftylady]

45. opposed to forcing one to have a baby? nt

[Hamlette]

26. the more difficult question is: what should be the punishment for having an abortion?

if it is a crime, there should be some punishment. Put the woman in jail? For how long? If not, why not? If she committed murder, why shouldn't she be given the death penalty? A long prison sentence?

They only want to punish the doctor, as though the woman did not participate in the act itself.

[I work for workers]

32. I never thought they really wanted to punish the dr. alone.

I have always thought that was something of a point of compromise, as punishing women comes off to harsh during election time.

[Hamlette]

44. make 'em answer. On the record. They can't.

I'm not sure its election year stuff. There is a great video on youtube where someone goes out and asks that question of people protesting at an "abortion" clinic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk6t_tdOkwo

When asked what punishment should be, they say "I've not thought about that."

[otherlander]

46. I asked a girl in my school that question once.

She said yes, she was. She's against the Iraq war, pro-universal healthcare, pro-gay marraige, pretty much left-leaning on everything except that. I disagree with her, but kind of have to respect the fact that she doesn't change her opinions to try to fit in with the liberals who she usually agrees with.

[Th1onein]

49. I am "anti-choice" or "pro life"

I am also FOR universal health care.

[mondo joe]

51. I don't waste my time on those walking spincters. NT

[w8liftinglady]

54. a LTTE in my paper from a "Pro-Life" doctor,and my reply

http://www.thedailylight.com/articles/2008/01/23/opinion/doc47967a15cb8d8692445020.txt
Letter: My little patient
Published: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 10:00 PM CST
To the Editor,

Forty-five million have been aborted since the Supreme Court legalized it 35 years ago. But there is one among these millions I personally will never forget, because I saw him do the seemingly impossible – he survived his abortion.

When I met him in the operating room he was moving his arms and legs and looked as if he wanted to cry. The abortionist seemed uncomfortable.

He was a tiny human being who just minutes before had been legally a “non-person” and had no rights. Now, after surviving the procedure, he had become a legal “person” and had a right to have us try to save him. Such is the twisted logic of the pro-choice position.

I carried him to his NICU bed. We did everything we could, but over time our efforts proved futile. His breathing grew labored. His grimace became more pronounced. To me he looked like he was struggling against something he had no way to comprehend. He died after living a few hours.

Abortion is now an intensely personal issue for me. I believe it is an offense against the most vulnerable among us. My little patient put a face on it for me. Why can so many babies like him can be killed, while the rest of us have our lives and rights protected?

Pro-life citizens across America are observing Sanctity of Human Life Week. During this week I will remember my little patient who helped me put a face on those 45 million innocent human beings.

My reply:
Dr. Bryce..I appreciate your sincere concern for your "littlest patient".I,too,wish there was never a need for abortion.The reality remains that many women find themselves in dire straits.I find it sad that the concern for our fellow man ends for many people once these babies are born.People who have their babies are then abandoned by the same society who so strongly encouraged them to give birth.We,as a society,judge these children born into poverty,and do nothing to help them escape it.We can outlaw abortions,but that won't stop them.

[Echo In Light]

60. Off topic, but similar theme: While wearing a Bush/666 t-shirt one day

In a store, a young checkout girl made a remark about me not "liking" the president, to which I gave one of my pat responses, and she then chimed in with defending "Bush's war" because "the bible says there will be wars."

Wow...

[raccoon]

63. Did you suggest that she enlist in the military? nt

[HeeBGBz]

65. "If the fetus you are defending turns out to be a gay person"

"Will you still protect it's rights?"

I saw a paraphrased version of that question on a bumper sticker.

[Orsino]

68. They're big fans of death, but only outside the womb.

It's a principled stance, you see. They love punishing sin, but not Original Sin.

[1awake]

80. I won't argue with your post

other than the idea of original sin. Most of them view many of these arguments listed in this thread as uninformed BS. No, they do not weigh an adults life as having the same "weight" as a newborn's or a child's. Original sin does not apply to children in their minds. So, being without sin, and lacking the ability to make a choice, Abortion to them is murdering the innocent for reasons of selfishness/personal gain. So.. the argument of women's rights etc, kinda doesn't really stand up when compared to how they view the act (for them).

Every time a man or a woman stands up and says "Pro-choice.. or women's rights!".. they see what their beliefs allow them to see.. which isn't hard to figure out... A person who is selfish and who lacks accountability for their actions. Even using the argument of rights doesn't work on this issue.. its never ending it seems.


Please do not take this as MY belief system. This is just my experience for many who are anti-abortion. And even though I could be viewed as anti-abortion, I am seen as far left on this issue by many people in my area.


I personally am Anti-war, for Universal Health care, anti-death penalty, and against abortion but not in all cases. Oh.. I also believe in the separation of church and state, which many of them do not.

[Orsino]

81. There's no such thing as an innocent fetus...

...for those who subscribe to the doctrine of Original Sin.

[electron_blue]

71. In their minds it's about controlling women, not babies

[aikoaiko]

74. The answer would be that health care is a personal responsibility.

or something along those lines./

[pitohui]

78. they said they were opposed to universal health care and they had not adopted any children

you simply don't understand the point of the anti-abortion stance, it is to control women and it is to bring more bodies into churches that would otherwise have declining populations

the more stupid people who can't plan ahead are encouraged/forced to breed, the more stupid easily manipulated people there will be in the world, and the more $$$ in church coffers that promote hysteria and stupidity

to pretend that being anti-abortion is about human health or about helping women and children is to fall for the Big Lie

being anti-abortion is about forcing the least resourceful women to breed new increasingly stupid slaves to keep the churches in business -- talk to enough evangelicals and you will learn that there's simply nobody home upstairs, they are not only stupid in overwhelming numbers but PROUD to be stupid and to follow an ancient book of myths rather than modern science

you can't help the helpless, you can only save yourself and your own daughters

some of these people don't adopt but they FOSTER, why, for the $$$$, in their case, being a god-fearing xtian is also a convenient source of extra income

talk to them long enough about health care and they bleat about "market forces," nowhere does jesus suggest that "market forces" is the way to go in regard to healing, he healed without charge but they don't even let their own bible bother them, because it ain't about religion, it ain't about pleasing god, it's about they're stupid and will bleat whatever bullshit their leaders feed them in order to line their pockets -- that's the beauty of being stupid, it's so easy to hold opinions that don't make any sense