Judge (MA) throws out lawsuit -- parents can't keep children from learning about same-sex marriage

[jefferson_dem]

Massachusetts: Gay Topics and Schools
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

A federal judge threw out a lawsuit filed by parents who wanted to keep their young children from learning about same-sex marriage in school. The judge, Mark L. Wolf of Federal District Court, said the courts had decided in other cases that parents’ rights to exercise their religious beliefs were not violated when their children were exposed to contrary ideas in school. Schools are “entitled to teach anything that is reasonably related to the goals of preparing students to become engaged and productive citizens,” Judge Wolf said. The parents who filed the lawsuit, Tonia and David Parker of Lexington, sued after their 5-year-old son brought home a book from kindergarten that depicted a gay family. Another Lexington couple joined the lawsuit after a second-grade teacher read a class a fairy tale about two princes falling in love. Jeffrey Denner, a lawyer for the parents, said they would file a federal appeal and refile state-court claims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/24/education/24brfs-gay.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

[RC]

1. We have a government intend on killing innocents for profit...

and these people are worried their little Johny or Susi might find out that some people actually liking other people and are nice to them?

[LiberalinNC]

2. The key words to this lawsuit is "Public School" if the parents don't like

what the public schools are teaching, remove them and place them in a private school. Tough shit to those parents, and thank goodness for judges like Judge Wolf.

[DRoseDARs]

3. Mommy, why are this black man and white woman kissing in my book?

My children are being exposed to the idea of interracial marriage in school?! Heavens to Betsy, this must be stopped! Honey, ring our lawyer...

I imagine this lawsuit would have been thrown out much faster if this had been the scenario, but regardless it's just as repulsive that this even made it to court or that they're going to appeal.

[JohnnyLib2]

4. It is reassuring to see this federal judge's ruling,

since such cases keep appearing. Now we have to prepare for this judge to be ridiculed by the RW talking heads, multimillionaire fundie preachers and so forth. 'Tis a long, long battle.

[Eric J in MN]

5. They should be teaching 5 year olds the alphabet, not about marriage.

Parents should teach their own children about marriage.

[Herman74]

6. This Assertion Supposes That Parents Will Do What You Want...

...but, of course, there is absolutely no guarantee of this.

Why don't we just leave it as:

Schools should teach whatever they deem necessary to ensure that children grow up to be moral, happy, and productive adults?

[Eric J in MN]

11. Are there any subjects inappropriate for 5 year olds,

...or is everything OK if a school says so?

[gollygee]

7. They read stories to kids at that age

the stories aren't all going to be about the alphabet.

[Eric J in MN]

9. They can use nursery rhymes like "Humpty Dumpty"

...if it's a reading exercise.

My hunch is that the point of this exercise was to teach about marriage.

[gollygee]

12. Nursery rhymes are more for 2- to 3-year-olds

5-year-olds want more realistic stories. Maybe they were trying to teach "different families are different" and maybe they were just telling a story. But I can't imagine reading more than about 3 or 4 stories for 5-year-olds without having a mom, a dad, or both (presumably married) in at least one of the stories. I really think it would be difficult to avoid having any married characters in any stories during a whole year of kindergarten.

[Eric J in MN]

13. If the point were to teach reading, the teacher would have chosen...

...a less controversial book. The point of this lesson was to teach about marriage.

[gollygee]

15. One of my biggest complaints about kids' books

is that most of them seem to have SOME kind of moral in the story. Not very many are just fun stories. Whether the moral is cooperation, or telling the truth, or eating vegetables, or appreciating differences, it's hard to avoid kids' books that have morals to them.

My complaint about the books isn't that they teach morals but that I don't understand why kids' books can't just be fun. Just fun and silly would be good.

[mondo joe]

20. Actually, King & King is just a fun story - that's why we like it so much.

It's not a moral-bashing diatribe. It's a fun and funny story.

[gollygee]

21. If they're fun then it's cool

but god there are some annoying books that have no value beyond teaching some moral.

Our favorite is "Don't Let The Pigeon Drive the Bus". But we have some books that talk about different types of families too.

[mondo joe]

22. I agree. King & King is great for just that reason.

My kids have 2 moms AND 2 dads - but we don't own a copy of Heather Has Two Mommies because it's sort of drecky.

King & King on the other hand is unapologetic fun.

[mondo joe]

18. If there is a point beyond a charming story, it might be to be aware of other

people.

Because that's such a BAD thing. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

29. Gay families are not a dirty secret to be hidden away. We are real, we are here.

Get used to it.

[mondo joe]

8. You may have missed it, but reading stories to 5 year olds is the norm.

Or do you want them to learn the alphabet without learning about words?

[Eric J in MN]

10. When I was kid we read stories like "Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall"

...not stories about marriage.

[donco6]

14. Really?

You didn't read Cinderella?

Snow White - big marriage scene there.

Sleeping Beauty?

I'm thinking it's not marriage that you're having a problem with, right?

Kindergarten standards require that kids this age learn how to write their name. This leads to learning about family relationships - mom, dad, brother, sister, cousins, uncles, etc. They then begin learning about what makes a neighbor and what a neighborhood is. They learn their address, their phone number, where they were born, etc. This has been part of KG standards for many, many, MANY years.

[mondo joe]

16. Really? Never any Snow White or Cinderella?

How odd and sad.

[seaglass]

17. They're teaching them about families. That's age appropriate

for a 5 yo.

[gollygee]

19. It's also a very common theme for books for 5-year-olds

as are books that talk about accepting differences.

[yewberry]

23. The problem I have with this assertion

is that there are probably children in that school whose parents are in same-sex relationships.

These are kids that don't generally get to see families like theirs in books and on posters. These are kids who are routinely given the message that there is something different or wrong with their families and are likely to be challenged, even at an early age, by other kids about whether or not theirs is a "real" family.

I understand that some people have real problems with what they see as legitimization of "aberrant" or "sinful" behavior--those opinions are generally related to sexuality, and those people frequently have a hard time divorcing same-sex relationships from the act of sex. "Heather Has Two Mommies" is no more about sex than "The Berenstain Bears' New Baby" is. It's about reality, whether some families think that's right or wrong, and families who believe it's wrong are not all that likely to teach their kids about that reality.

So, what's worse? Letting kids (even kids whose parents think same-sex relationships are bad) see a more accurate representation of reality, or isolating and marginalizing other kids because their families are different? Or worse, creating an environment in which little kids are obliged to keep their families secret?

[Eric J in MN]

24. It's a matter of choosing the right age for a topic.

How about discussing same-sex marriage in Social Studies class when the kids are 15, instead of in children's books when the kids are 5 and some of them may be confused by the topic?

[mondo joe]

25. The book isn't an analysis of same sex marriage, and the 5 yr olds may include gay families.

This seems to be inconceivable to you, but there are 5 year olds with gay family members. Sometimes even parents.

[Eric J in MN]

27. If a 5 year old has gay parents at home...

...then he doesn't need to be taught about the topic at school. The gay parents can teach him about the topic when they think the time is right.

[mondo joe]

28. If a kid has gay parents they are likely part of the school community. Fucking duh.

They are not something to be hidden away like a dirty secret.

Why are you so opposed to children learning about the world they live in?

[Eric J in MN]

30. It may be confusing to some five year olds to be taught about...

...same-sex marriage.

Why are you so opposed to waiting until kids are 15 to address the topic in a classroom?

[mondo joe]

31. All the more reason to learn about it. In MA there are married gay couples - they

are legal, they are there, they have kids in schools.

I'm opposed to waiting until they are 15 for the same reason I'd be opposed to them not learning words or math until they are 15.

[mondo joe]

32. Here are some other books - do you think kids should wait until they are 15 to know about these

topics?

[Eric J in MN]

35. I don't want 5 year olds taught about the Holocaust.

Wait until they're older.

[mondo joe]

36. They have to wait until they're 15? Why should kids wait until age 15 to learn about

families in their communities?

[mondo joe]

49. Do kids have to wait until 15 to learn about Rosa Parks?

If not, will it confuse them?

[Eric J in MN]

52. It's probably better to wait until a kid is older than 5 to teach about racism. NT

NT

[mondo joe]

53. That's not what I asked. When are they old enough to know who Martin Luther King was?

You know - the guy they have a day off for.

[FreeState]

33. How would a child be confused exactly

How would a child be confused exactly? Care to expand on that - I do not see how they would get confused...

[Eric J in MN]

34. A 5 year old who is straight...

..may think that since he likes his friend, he should marry him.

[mondo joe]

37. ROFL! That is worse than any Limbaughism I can think of.

Good lord! The children will want to marry each other!!!

What do you think of the risk that gay kids will think they should marry their female friends because of Cinderella?

[blonndee]

38. Kids already tend to think that way! They generalize.

When I was in kindergarten I was bound and determined that I was going to marry my best male friend because I knew that married people loved each other and I loved him! Then I was sure that I was going to marry Superman. Big deal. Oh, we (I mean my friend, but also Superman) didn't end up hooking up, being in a relationship, or getting married. It certainly didn't "turn me straight."

[mondo joe]

39. I wonder how Eric would like actual gay couples and parents to hide themselves away

so as not to "confuse" children.

:puke:

[Eric J in MN]

42. I don't. NT

NT

[mondo joe]

44. No? But if a book is confusing, how much worse would gay parents be? Do you

think we should be hidden away until our kids are 15?

If not, what exactly should the schools do about us?

[Eric J in MN]

47. Schools don't have to do anything on this topic.

Gay parents can discuss the topic with their kids whenever they think the time is right for a particular kid of theirs.

[mondo joe]

48. What about the other kids? Does it occur to you that my kids schoolmates are aware

of my existence? Does it occur to you that my kids' parents come to school to pick them up? Attend school functions? Are on the PTSA? Have kids over for playdates and sleepovers?

[blonndee]

43. Just fine, would be my guess.

Such a silly and unthinking argument.

[FreeState]

40. They already think that

They already think that, my niece wanted to marry her cat - maybe we should not talk about cats at all either. Then she wanted to marry her female cousin. All this and she does not even know what a gay person is.

Care to say how its going to confuse them beyond what children already think?


Edit to add: if a 5 year old is identifying as "straight" I think we have bigger problems.

[Eric J in MN]

41. I didn't say that 5 year olds self-identify as straight.

That is the point. That is why gay-themed stories may be confusing for 5 year olds.

[FreeState]

45. Um no

how is marriage gay. Seriously. Please let me know how a five year old knowing that two men are raising a child is going to hurt or confuse them. It has nothing to so with asking children to identify as anything.

[mondo joe]

46. Simple question, Eric: There are married gay couples in MA - do you think their existence

confuses straight kids and make them want to marry their same sex friends?

[Eric J in MN]

50. No. NT

NT

[mondo joe]

51. If the actual couples don't confuse the kids, why would a fictional couple?

[Eric J in MN]

54. Because they're going to think about it more when it's the theme

...of a story, then when they're visiting a friend with gay parents and thinking about the friend.

[mondo joe]

56. And you think this why? A short picture book will make a bigger impression than REAL PEOPLE

who are married?

[Eric J in MN]

57. I've explained my position as well as I can for now.

Your position is being carried out in MA, and your position won in court.

[mondo joe]

59. What is your problem with same sex marriage exactly?

If your explanation so far is the best you can do, it is sorely lacking.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karlrschneider]

55. There are many 15 year old PARENTS who never learned

about sex (the truth) and there have also been far too MANY suicides in that age group who weren't
allowed to know they weren't freaks or pariahs. Why is this kind of education such a big problem for you?

[mondo joe]

58. Apparently they have to wait until 5 to learn about Rosa Parks or MLK too. It's Humpty Dumpty until

age 15 at which point they are magically able to learn about these things.

[karlrschneider]

61. My favorite nursery rhyme:

Little Jack Horner
Sat in the corner
Eating his sister.

:rofl:


Or the longer version...

Little Jack Horner
Sat in the corner
Eating his Xmas pie

He stuck in his thumb
And pulled out a plum
Said "Where the fuck did THAT come from?"

..

[yewberry]

65. You're missing the point.

These books aren't about gay marriage and they're not about sex. They're about what families look like--just like those that feature single-parent families, adoptive families, and grandparents as primary caregivers.

Holding back something as simple as having two moms or two dads until kids are 15? And Social Studies class? What? No way, uh-uh. That's a horrible message to send to kids. You'd be teaching kids of LGBT families that there's something wrong with their families, and enabling bullying and isolation of them.

Penalizing kids whose families are different is shitty, and that's what you're defending.

[NMMNG]

64. So I take it, then, that Cinderella is off limits?

Snow White? The Princess and the Pea? Rapunzel?

Or is it only when the marriage partners are of the same gender that you have a problem?

[uppityperson]

26. Ever read the Paper Bag Princess by Munsch?

http://robertmunsch.com/books.cfm?bookid=27 Great book for kids. The princess's clothes burn up, prince scorns her, she saves him, he proposes, she goes dancing off into the world along and strong.

[yellowcanine]

62. Why do wingnuts (who supposedly hate trial lawyers) sue at the drop of a hat?

I have never understood this. They trash talk lawyers all the time but everytime they get their knickers in a twist over something the first thing you know they are filing a lawsuit.

[NMMNG]

63. Yay!

Schools are “entitled to teach anything that is reasonably related to the goals of preparing students to become engaged and productive citizens,” Judge Wolf said.



Good for him, realizing that eliminating bigotry prepares students to become engaged and productive citizens. :applause: