Man seeks forgiveness for 1984 rape

[sampsonblk]

By KRISTEN GELINEAU, Associated Press Writer
18 minutes ago

CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. - "William Beebe had been haunted by that night for years..."

---To summarize, he completely got away with it at the time (1984), but says he couldn't deal with what he had done. Drank for 20+ yearsto keep from dealing with it. Through AA, he decided to send an apology letter to his victim in . They corresponded for a few months in an attempt at healing the wounds. Finally, she called the police in January of 2006 and had him arrested, based on the confessions he had made to her via email.

"E-mails and letters arrived, threatening her with everything from rape to dismemberment. Other messages were less extreme but still stung — mainly from Christians condemning her for pressing charges, admonishing her to forgive.

But she was a Christian, too, and she HAD forgiven Beebe. Couldn't she forgive and still want justice? Couldn't she forgive and still feel anger?"
...
"But to Seccuro, forgiveness was never the issue. To her, it's very simple.

The apology was for him. Justice is for her."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070224/ap_on_re_us/to_forgive

[dsc]

1. what a truely terrible story

I hope she finds peace someday.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. He Got Off Way Easy. What A Horrible Story (As All Rapes Are) And God Bless Her.

That was a very powerful story and I hope to hell someday she can be at more peace. I also can only hope that they do in fact identify and prosecute any others who were involved that night.

[madokie]

8. She will find peace now,

theres much satisfaction in justice. And it's justice that she does what must be done for her, as she was/is the victim, not him now.
She is being blessed
just thinking here

[Missy M]

3. I hope they find the others involved in the rape...

if not he gets off with a two year sentence. I can't believe there are people against her for doing what she did, who think she should forgive. Not me, if that had been me I would have done the same thing she did, without hesitation.

[Bronyraurus]

4. You buy the ticket, you take the ride

If you break the law this way, the law might catch up with you. It leaves a bad taste in one's mouth because, in effect, the rapist is being punished for apologizing, but that was his risk and he took it.

[helderheid]

26. but did you read his apology?

[sampsonblk]

5. Wow, no one thinks they are both wrong?

I am apparently the only one who thinks this is not justice.

[Bunny]

6. Why don't you explain why you think this is not justice?

[sampsonblk]

9. Certainly

The crime the guy committed was awful. But having seen the light (to some extent) and repented, I would hope and pray that the victim would also see the light and have some mercy.

She is obviously very hurt even after all these years. What she is after sounds like revenge to me, not justice.

Translation: I have the same christian perspective as a lot of other people.

[Bunny]

12. Well, I think (to use your own words) that the victim saw the light

(to some extent) and showed mercy by agreeing to the plea bargain.

Justice delayed is justice denied, as the old saying goes. I see you are a male - have you ever been sexually assaulted? Drugged and raped, possibly gang-raped? If not, I think you have no business questioning her motives and decisions.

[sampsonblk]

13. I disagree

This isn't about my gender. Its about looking in the mirror. I don't know if you have ever read The Sunflower by Simon Wiesenthal. If not, its definitely worth the time. Anyway, forgiveness has value. But its hard as hell. Sometimes impossible. Otherwise, everyone would do it. I have no idea if I personally would be able to forgive this guy. Who could know until it happens to them? But I do know that when the opportunity presents itself, forgiveness is always the best option for both parties.

Ask Mary Jo Buttafuoco, or the Amish families who had their daughters murdered in school this past year. I don't know about you, but that's what I aspire to.

[FredScuttle]

16. Mercy is not hers to give

the rapist committed a crime against all of society when he committed the rape. The justice system is the proper entity to deal with him, not the victim.

[sampsonblk]

17. She has a role

"the rapist committed a crime against all of society" - I honestly don't know how you came to that conclusion, but I know I definitely disagree.

Anyway, the "justice" system is involved because she sought revenge. Right now, that's water under the bridge. She obviously can't do anything to stop this process now, but she can forgive him and seek no more revenge. It won't do anything for the rapist, which is not my concern anyway, but it will probably do wonders for her. Otherwise she is going to carry around this hate for how many years?

[salin]

29. yes, darn her... she isn't as morally superior as the rapist

because he sought forgiveness and she didn't grant it in the way that you think she should.

Hope those "fill you up with moral superiority" breakfast cereal morsels are tastey and fulfilling this morning.

[Karenina]

47. He was SO SINCERE

he even denied the rape in court!!! SHE must have made him do that. :puke:

[salin]

48. then again... in the end

he pled guilty.... to a greatly lowered charger - with an agreement to give evidence against others. Yep - that was certainly all about repenting and taking responsibility for his actions.

[FredScuttle]

30. You have a very curious interpretation of our justice system

as well the "hate" that rape victims "carry" around with them (?) I guessing, from the posts above, that you've never been raped, so I know you're not speaking from personal experience.

You don't know how I came to the conclusion that prosecutors in criminal proceedings don't represent the victim, but rather the community in which they have jurisdiction? Well, I watched a couple episodes of Law & Order and...oh yeah, I took a basic civics lesson in 5th grade.

Now, you would have a point if the victim was persuing a civil suit against her rapist. I would support any action she would take against this criminal who, 20 years after his attack, now has a conscience. But, that would be up to her.

But please be clear about the distinction between criminal and civil proceedings.

[wicket]

54. Well said

:thumbsup:

[XanaDUer]

37. The DA represents the community

in cases against the alleged perpetrator. Also, it is not seen as revenge, but as justice. Revenge would be her or her friends/relatives shooting the guy after ambushing him (or a similar scenario).

[Karenina]

53. My advice...

please do crawl back under the slimy, moldy rock from whence you emerged.

[Marie26]

81. I truly hope

that you haven't emailed anyone involved w/the case w/these opinions.

[philosophie_en_rose]

83. Reporting a crime to the police is not revenge.

The government still had to prove the case. The guy still had the opportunity to provide a defense or to have his sentence mitigated.

The bottom line is that personal forgiveness and legal consequences are two entirely separate things. If the perpetrator truly wanted closure, he would have confessed to the police on his own. Instead, he forces himself into the life of a person he raped and dumps his sob story on her to guilt her into forgiving him? Please.

It is not the victim's obligation to forgive or to feel sorry for a rapist.

You can aspire to be as forgiving as you think everyone should be, but your "forgiveness" is really an insult to victims.

[Bunny]

23. But in your mind, forgiveness on her part would have consisted of

letting him off the hook. When he initially contacted her, ostensibly to apologize, she could have ignored him completely and let him get away scott-free, which seems to be what you consider "forgiveness". In a society with rules, that's not acceptable. He not only violated her, he broke the rules of a civilized society and we cannot allow that to be disregarded.

Oh, and while their ability to forgive is admirable, I don't believe that either Mary Jo Buttafucco or the Amish families argued that their perps be allowed to walk away scott-free.

[Karenina]

41. Two words...

rape apologist.

Beebe violated her TWICE! Once 20 years ago, then again with his lame attempts to dump his guilt on her. I find the OP's comments on this thread highly disturbing. "SHE has a role," indeed... :puke:

[salin]

46. it is always disturbing

to try to come up with explanations for the rape apologists - those who have great empathy with accused and confirmed (as in this case) rapists while having no empathy for the alleged or confirmed (as in this case) victim.

All of the possible explanations I can think of are a wee bit disturbing.

[Karenina]

51. Bingo. eom

[alarimer]

19. I wouldn't have mercy if I was the victim

I would NEVER forgive someone for doing that to me. He deserves to suffer. Throw him UNDER the jail.

[aikoaiko]

24. Justice is turning it over to police, prosecturs, judges, and potentially a jury

to decide if law has been broken and a punishment is deserving.

Revenge is pointing a shotgun loaded with birdshot at his groin and pulling the trigger.

[Truthiness Inspector]

43. Exactly

Strange how that one poster seems to equate pursuing legal justice with "revenge" and acts as if the victim is out of line.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

40. So by your reasoning, all any rapist or other criminal has to do, is repent, "see the light",

and they should be forgiven by both their victim and society at large?

And if such forgiveness is not coming, then those who do not forgive are in the wrong? :eyes:

You'll forgive me, but I've got some banks to rob, LOL!

[salin]

42. well throwing out the criminal justice system could save some $

for bush's tax cuts... So whenever a criminal, regardless of how heinous the crime, repents - a case can be thrown out and save the govt money. If the victims are outraged by this... too bad.... they certainly should be better Christians, and if they aren't its their fault.

:eyes:

[Bjorn Against]

45. He did NOT see the light...

Did you read the whole article, here is an excerpt:

There is no statute of limitations on felonies in Virginia, and with Beebe's written confession, it appeared to be an open and shut case.

Except Beebe, facing a sentence of life in prison, suddenly denied raping Seccuro.

She couldn't believe it.

They were headed for trial.

When the guy is about to be held to account for his actions did he accept any responsibility? Did he do anything to show he had changed? No, all of a sudden he goes and says the victim is lying. He is violent criminal, and for you to say he deserves forgiveness and blame the victim for wanting him to hold him to account for his actions. That is disgusting, I think you owe all DUers who have suffered from rape an apology.

This blame the victim attitude makes me sick.

[wicket]

55. Amen!!!!

That is disgusting, I think you owe all DUers who have suffered from rape an apology.


:grr:

[noamnety]

68. Is this an accurate portrayal of your "christian" perspective?

Men can experience very real deep emotional scarring when they rape women. They should be commended for that.
Women who are raped need to get over it.

When men hang onto emotional wounds, it's called "seeing the light."
When women hang onto emotional wounds, it's call being insensitive and full of revenge.

It would be better for society as a whole if rapists didn't have to face the legal consequences of their actions. It's very difficult for a rapist to open up and reveal his vulnerable side - doing so should be justice enough.

A rapist has the right to expect his victim to help him work through his emotional pain. By exposing his vulnerable side to his victim, he obligates her not to betray him.

----------------------------
Here's my perspective.

You want to take responsibility for your actions? Turn your goddamn ass into a police station. That ain't her job, it's yours.

Thinking some fucking vanilla-stink filled stationary is gonna fix a rape and now you're good with the universe is beyond stupid and insulting.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[marions ghost]

132. well said

you put it very clearly.

Judging by the prevalence of rape on campuses and elsewhere, these basic truths about rape are not universally understood. They need to be taught. It won't stop rapists, but it will stop others from defending them if people learn how damaging this kind of attitude is.

[Marie26]

74. And we should never

convict any criminal as long as he says he's sorry, right?

[B Calm]

7. As a victim of rape of myself (2000 election). I'll never get over it!

I can understand her hatred!

[sampsonblk]

10. Absolutely-nt

nt

[dsc]

11. The man was evasive and self absorbed

He wasn't forthcoming and he sure wasn't doing a real ninth step. A real ninth step would have been honest and accepting of potential punishment.

[Karenina]

14. He abused her in 1984

and now attempts to USE her for his own purposes AGAIN...

[Solly Mack]

15. Precisely

[sampsonblk]

18. What if that's not true?

His wording does raise a red flag. But what if he's really honestly sorry for what he has done?

[Karenina]

20. Sometimes "sorry" isn't good enough.

He tried to USE HER to assuage his own guilty conscience. Had he ANY concern about HER FEELINGS he'd have left her out of it.

[salin]

44. does being sorry mean anything if it isn't coupled with taking responsibility

for the actions? Isn't the idea of atonement and repentence more than expressing sorrow?

[dsc]

56. then he would have told her what happened immediately

not only after being charged and getting a plea bargain. I just buy his song and dance. I am a recovering alchy myself. This fails the smell test.

[Breeze54]

126. Who gives a rats ass?

He should pay for his crime! Period. End of story!

[wicket]

134. He did the crime - now he needs to do the time

n/t

[zanne]

39. Sounds like he wanted to get it "off his chest"

In other words, he was trying to make himself feel better, rather than make amends. His sad story to her about his alcoholic years was a typically alcoholic tactic; making the victim of your actions feel sorry for you.

[salin]

52. It would appear - that after you tried to jumpstart this item ... that

up to this point - no one, but you, agrees with the idea that this is a story of "two wrongs". Only the folks who sent the victim hate-mail after she went public. Don't know that this is the company I would chose for myself.

Frankly, equating her not "forgiving" up to *your* terms of what that would mean as a "wrong" equal to that of his raping her - is rather disturbing.

Sorry for the tone -but after reading the OP, the thread, your posts on it - and then going back to see when the thread got kicked for todays discussion (that is - initially it was a short-lived thread)and seeing that it is *this* post that attempts to revive it - and revive it in a way to validate your perspective that her actions are as bad as his (in terms of "they are both wrong") in the sense that her big "wrong" is not letting a rapist walk free even after it was he who hunted her down, interupted her life *again* in an attempt to make himself feel better (reading about the exchange does not indicate that he was trying to make right the wrong he had done *to* her)???? Are you kidding? Yikes what a horrific comparison per "wrongs".

[WorldResident]

59. The victim's in the wrong? ABSOLUTELY NOT

The idea of true remorse is that you are open to whatever punishment is meted by your victim. In this case, he got two years in prison. The victim felt he was not truly remorseful.

Now whether he should or should not have confessed in terms of legal wisdom is a matter between the attacker, his lawyer, and God.

[Marie26]

79. BOTH WRONG?

:grr: The victim was wrong for actually pressing charges against a rapist? I'm just hiding this thread. It's not worth it.

[pitohui]

84. no one thinks they are both wrong because they are not both wrong

i don't care if my rapist feels bad about it later, he still has a price to pay, 2 years is a damn light sentence for a horrific drug-related rape of this nature

and then to come back 20 years later and stalk the woman by mail, who knows what he was working up to next?

sociopathic drama queens are always sorry if it gets them attention, this guy don't need forgiveness, he needs lock-up and throw away the key

and throw away the mail privileges too

[Gormy Cuss]

104. Yes, you are alone in thinking that she was wrong.

If he actually serves his sentence, he may find the peace that he seeks. If he can't see that he needs to do more than dry out and write an apology letter I doubt that he's actually confronted his past. He's trying to blame the alcohol for his behavior.

She said that she had forgiven him, but that may have been before he re-entered her life and tried to absolve himself of further responsibility. Perhaps she hadn't let go of it as much as she thought, or perhaps she adheres to the school of thought held by some denominations that Christian forgiveness doesn't absolve the wrongdoer of responsibility to make material amends. Whatever her thinking, the word "revenge" is wholly inaccurate in this context. Had she opted to shoot the bastard, that would have been revenge. She sought only justice -- punishment meted out by an impartial party.

[salin]

105. the *best* thing about this thread...

is the sheer volume of repudiation for 'rape apologia' which used to show up on any thread in which rape was/is a subject. So far all but the OP have rejected the idea that this story involves wrongdoing and blame to be put upon the rape survivor. I take it as a sign that we, as a community, are growing.

[AZBlue]

122. It was completely selfish of him to do that.

He was just trying to make himself feel better, he never took her best interest into consideration. He had no right to open those wounds again for her - he had no idea how she was doing. If he knew for a fact that she was ok, had moved on and forgiven him, that might be a different thing. He took his chance by contacting her like that and he has to live with whatever her reaction was, and in this case he'll be living with it in jail.

[depakid]

21. "There is no statute of limitations on felonies in Virginia"

"Guilty as charged," he said calmly as Seccuro wiped away tears of relief.

But he was pleading guilty to a lesser charge of aggravated sexual battery; the other charges had been dropped. The prosecution's recommended sentence: two years in prison.

Why had they agreed to a plea? Then prosecutor Claude Worrell dropped the bombshell: Investigators believed Seccuro was gang raped.

Seccuro had long suspected it. And prosecutors knew Beebe's cooperation could be key in bringing other possible attackers to justice.

----------

Damn. That was a very disturbing story.

[aikoaiko]

22. The apology was for him. Justice is for her. --> the whole story right there

[helderheid]

27. I TOTALLY agree.

[WorldResident]

61. I agree, his motive was to assauge his consience

This is NOT a true apology.

[helderheid]

25. I just read this in my paper. Amazing.

[salin]

28. As I read the story and the thread...

it strikes me that the purpose of posting this story, given that throughout the thread you are criticizing the victim's actios, was to somehow take the side of the rapist - good guy - came around and appologized; bad victim - she should take the appology at face value and let it go.

As one who was raped in the same year as the story, I have to tell you that the first phase I went through was denial - yet during that denial I changed greatly - in areas of trust in relationships (friends as well as SOs), in self-esteeem (I found myself suddenly as "ugly" when I looked in the mirror - years later I realized this had been a self-preservation thing, if I believed I was 'ugly', then maybe I would be less likely to be raped again), in repression of anger (lest I connect to the real anger) which left me often blaming myself in conflicts rather than ever expressing anger at another person. Do this long enough and it takes a very ugly toll on the self - and leads to many self-destructive behaviors. The next phase - many years later - was to finally pull out the episode and deal with it, work through it - finally recognize the toll it had taken on my life in so many ways.

The difference between the rapist and the victim in the story you brought to the discussion - is that the rapist had control of his actions 20 years ago and has a direct responsibility for the very negative ways it impacted his life after the incident. While the victim did not have any responsibility for the event. And sadly, those with little direct experience with rape all too often minimize the long-term negative impacts that the victim often has to live with. Your claims at superiority over the victim because she isn't "forgiving" enough, reflect an attitude in society (that thankfully is not the overwhelming norm on this board) to have much greater empathy for the rapists or accused rapists than for the victims. It is no wonder there has been little improvement in the high rate of rapes of women between the ages of 15 and 35 in this country (still hovering at a 'likely victim' at around 1 in 3).

While it may not be your intention, the OP and your responses on this thread reads like one more of the 'rape appologist' threads that appear from time to time on these boards. Discouraging to read.

[helderheid]

31. I am so sorry for what you went through and I agree with you. After reading the entire article, it

was clear to me he wanted to "apologize" for himself, not her. She spent 2 months explaining what hell she lived through because of him and the others who raped her that night (which he denied there being more than one), and he went on to explain how awful it is to be an alcoholic, minimizing what she had gone through. He even went so far as to say they "made out" that night. Said he sent her home wearing his jacket - not how she remembers it - fighting him (and others) off, waking in a bloody sheet and walking to the hospital.

[salin]

34. as if that wasn't enough... after going public - she recieve some support - and

also some very hostile, negative mail... that sound suprisingly a lot like the blame up thread on her for not *forgiving* and just letting it go. Why is it that strangers would be so bothered by the story to take it upon themselves to write her hostile mail on the rapists behalf? Angry enough to take personal action to essentially treat her as a villain in this story?

Why are some men so prone to be so dismissive, or worse angry at rape victims and so forgiving or at least 'understanding' towards those who commmitted the rape? So frickin' backwards.

[helderheid]

35. NO SHIT - What a manipulative prick (to put it nicely) this Beebe guy is - to try to come off as the

victim! :wtf: ?? And then to actually get support by some so called Christians who attack a woman who was so brutalized!!

:mad: :grr: :grr: :grr: :mad:

[Karenina]

32. Indeed, Salin.

:hug: After my last post on this thread I washed the dishes. Standing over the sink I felt a rush of nausea and anger. WHAT WAS THE COMMUNICATION INTENT OF THE OP? Was it to drum up some disapprobation for the victim? She was NOT RESPONSIBLE for the rape, for HIS guilty conscience NOR for his STALKING her to unload his shit on her AGAIN decades later.

"Rape apologist" thread does not even begin to describe it...

[salin]

38. I think it is more along the lines of some of the responses the victim

recieved after going public. From the linked article:

Seccuro was in for another shock. While much of the public reaction was supportive, some of it was not.

E-mails and letters arrived, threatening her with everything from rape to dismemberment. Other messages were less extreme but still stung — mainly from Christians condemning her for pressing charges, admonishing her to forgive.



Clearly the OP falls into the second category rather than the former - but ....

what saddens me - on this issue and others, and I post it here because it is apropos to this OP, is that on a progressive board some folks think that their view is so prevalent (and can not recognize the underlying hostility this sort of thread displays) that it is as if they expect lots of agreement for the POV. No recognition that it is just one step away from the threads started, whenever their is a high profile rape case in the news, that there should be a presumption that the victim is lying - a presumption that most rape accusations are suspect - a false belief that the rate of false accusations is higher than the actual incident of rape and therefor the accused rapist is always to be painted as more sympathetic than the alleged rape victim.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

50. Well, I think you can draw the rather obvious conclusions, nuff said.

what saddens me - on this issue and others, and I post it here because it is apropos to this OP, is that on a progressive board some folks think that their view is so prevalent (and can not recognize the underlying hostility this sort of thread displays) that it is as if they expect lots of agreement for the POV.

[wicket]

57. Thank-you for sharing

I am so sorry for all of the shit you've had to go through.

:hug:

[salin]

63. Thanks -

covered a lot of ground since I finally was able to start healing. Unlike the poster of the OP - I empathize a whole lot more with the rape survivor, than I do with the rapist "seeking forgiveness".

[wicket]

133. Same here

I can't believe the rape apologists on this thread! :grr:

:hug:

[sampsonblk]

58. No

An objective look at this subject causes you pain. That's the only reason I can think of for you to claim that I am supporting the rapist. Had I posted the exact scenario from The Sunflower, which is equally as interesting to consider, I suppose you'd say I was supporting the Nazi. In fact, by writing the Sunflower, I suppose Simon Weisenthal was actually supporting Nazis, right?

Of course not.

[salin]

64. the tone of your posting demonstrates sympathy for the rapist

but little sympathy and instead judgementalism toward the victim. The moral superiority toward the victim, that comes out in the 'two wrongs' posts and subsequent subthread posts, and the claim that the justice system is "revenge", because forgiveness is only possible if one pretends all is well and the rape is forgiven as if it never happened? For that she should be chastized? Are you kidding?

Are you sure the work to which you are refering was writting by Wisenthal? (Or was it Weisel?) Granted that this post is not a series (trilogy) of surviving horrendous atrocities and the effect upon the individual as a means of healing and such I don't quite see the parallel that you are suggesting. Of course perhaps you are suggesting that within that Trilogy the point was being made that all the war wounds would be healed if there was no justice and no trials and none of the Nazi leadership held to account - as that would be revenge rather than justice - all that was needed was forgiveness. Because that would, to me, be the parallel.

Now if the victim had not sought justice through the legal system - but instead pursued a vigilante response instead - then the tone of 'revenge' for which you seem to claim is her motive rather than justice - perhaps then I could see the parallel you are attempting to draw.

[sampsonblk]

115. Absurd

By far. Its about the conundrum. Not about the particulars of this case.

[salin]

118. what conundrum?

what is so clear to you that all of the rest of us is missing?

Just *WHY* are her actions as "wrong" as his? (Per your "two wrongs" post)

[Karenina]

124. This should be good...

Waiting for a response...








And waiting....










And waiting....












OOPS!!! LOOK AT THE TIME!! Gotta go to bed!!!

[salin]

65. here is the thing...

if someone is raped, and shortly thereafter the rapist decides that he is sorry and 'apologizes' to the victim - would it be your opinion that she should not report the rape? That she should accept the apology and move on for her own good? The fact that her life is now unalterably changed from the moment of the rape forward should be ignored, because for her to go to the authorities for justice wouldn't be about justice but would be about 'revenge' - and that would be bad? How is that different than this case?

So now you ask, how would supporting such a position be perceived "objectively" as an apologist position? Because it diminishes the damage done to the rape survivor and suggests that sheer 'forgiveness' alone will heal all wounds, and because it implies that the 'damage' inflicted upon the rapist by bringing charges is somehow 'as bad' as what was inflicted upon the survivor. Why that jump - because the term "revenge" implies an equal weight (ala wishing something 'as bad' happens upon the person who did something to me). It is this implication - intended or not - that invites the apologist label as it suggests that the "poor guy" having his life seriously disrupted due to a prosecution (and possible jail sentence) is as big a deal or a bigger deal than the serious disruption of life already inflicted (due to no action on her own part) the victim.

Just spelling out the logic that I, and others, have watched and read on various threads related to rape - and how your responses follow a similar implied logic. If you can follow the logic posted here - and see how one could come to that conclusion - even if it does not fit (I did suggest that it could be unintentional on your part) - than cool, we have covered some ground even if we choose to disagree. If on the other hand it seems preposterous to you and it must be only because I am a rape victim and thus am over emotional on the topic and thus easily dismissable, then ... well let me be as equally dismissive because there simply would be no point to the conversation.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karenina]

69. OH YES, INDEED! Things that make ya go HMMMM....

Can you spell A-G-E-N-D-A??? I KNEW you could!!! ;-)

[salin]

129. and dismissed again as "absurd"

edited - Deleted the post -- I should not feel I have to lay out my own story/experience to have my voice/word taken on face value. So I deleted it.

[sampsonblk]

116. Oh boy...

Sounds to me like you have some emotional investment in the outcome of this case.

Do you know...I posted this on a Sunday morning. Coincidence? Probably not. During that same period, I posted about state of Virginia's apology for slavery. See any connection?

Apology. Forgiveness. Atonement.

You should be ashamed of yourself for these hysterical accusations you have made against me. But on the good side, I will forgive you.

On edit: I posted both last evening. Whoops.

[salin]

119. actually you posted this thread on Saturday night - and changed

the title of the actual article. The Sunday morning post to kick the thread up was more of a "why doesn't anyone agree with me that the person raped is bad and wrong - because her forgiveness didn't include pretending that the damage done to her life never happened and that no law was broken" post. Sorry the change of title, and the kick to reignite the discussion because no one agreed with your view, sorta betrays the moral superiority you try to claim with this post.

How is it repentence or atonement when there is no responsibility or offering of restitution for the actions?

In my Christian education/training I was *never* taught that an apology in absense of both remorse AND repentence (taking responsibility for the actions) lead to atonement.

But feeling and speaking in a holier than thou tone is *always* easier than trying to understand a different perspective.

Oh, but then again, you can dismiss me again, because I am female, and a rape survivor, and thus there can be no intelligence or rationality behind anything I post. Only you who have compassion for the rapist and condemnation for the survivor - is object, rational and following Christian principles. :eyes:

[Karenina]

123. That's mighty white of you! THANKS!!!

Your shameful posts are here for all to see, particularly the one in which you attempt to attack a woman who has also been violated by "some poor man who may be really sorry now." Your tactic of using words like "emotional" or "hysterical" with their coded implications to marginalize will not go unnoticed here. For those unfamiliar with what a RAPE APOLOGIST sounds like, you have certainly educated them. Thank you for your service. I mean that sincerely.

[noamnety]

127. In your thread about Virginia

What did you blame the slaves for?

[helderheid]

33. I didn't read your summary until now - I had read this article in my paper - you are DEAD wrong -

there was no "ttempt at healing the wounds".

:puke:

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. There was a thread here yesterday discussing "subjective justice"...

... by the police. The general consensus was that they should not pick and choose which crimes they should intervene in.

The same principle applies here. She has information that suggests that Beebe committed a violent crime. Her duty as a citizen is clear. Legal forgiveness is not hers to give.

Tell it to the judge, Beebe.

[WorldResident]

60. Legal forgiveness can be hers to give

She legally does not have to call the police, but she has every right to.

If you are truly remorseful, you are willing to accept the consequences, even if it means prison.

[gravity]

49. Alcoholism

This guy is sick. I almost feel sorry for him, but he clearly didn't care about her and has just made the situation much worst.

Alcoholism changes ones personality which can make some people complete narcissists, lacking empathy for others. He was just apologizing so that he could feel better himself, and he didn't consider the feelings of the victim at all. This just hurts the victim even more, since he still doesn't care about her wellbeing, and is rubbing it in her face. The thing is that he is too sick to even realize what he is doing to her, so he is now playing the victim role.

His behavior reminds me of my own alcoholic father. When I think that he is trying to heal things between us, I realize that he is only doing it for himself, and doesn't care about my feelings. The letters he wrote was very similar too. I thought he was being sincere at first, but then he would only write about himself the rest of the letter neglecting how I feel.

Its sad that this guy is sick suffering from alcoholism, but the greater suffering he caused to others is far more abusive. The woman deserves to seek justice, since she is still the victim of the crime, and the guy needs to be removed from society so he doesn't harm others. Hopefully this will help the woman move on the best she can.

[pitohui]

87. you know what?

your dad may be the worst alcoholic in the world, yet i bet he never once put drug in a woman's drink so he could rape her

i know plenty of alcoholics, we all do, they can and do behave better than this

this scumbag doesn't get to hide behind his disease, i'm sorry he's ill, but it doesn't excuse his actions in the slightest -- it seems like this pervo is actually obsessional and has been obsessing about his rape victim all these years and creating an excuse to get back in touch with her, it's a good thing he was locked up before he worked himself back up to another attack on her or maybe this time her child

[gravity]

99. I am not excusing his actions

His behavior reminds me of how other alcoholics act in their self centered world view. He shows complete apathy towards others, hurting others for his own personal benefit. The apology was only for the benefit of himself and he didn't care at all about how she felt, which is how alcoholics act.

This guy needs to go to jail. He is sick in the head and will probably never be reabilitated. More importantly, the woman needs some sense of closure and justice, so she can try to move on with her life the best she can.

[Redstone]

62. Fuck him. How DARE he inflict pain on that woman yet AGAIN? Just FUCK him.

Redstone

[Gormy Cuss]

131. You know what? You're right. Fuck him.

Fuck anyone who tries to portray the victim as a perpetrator or enabler. Fuck him.

[Madspirit]

71. How Many

How many fucking rape apologists are there at DU. You know what, I don't even give a shit if he is sorry. Fuck him fuck him fuck him fuck him. He's just trying to make himself feel better. He had no right to even contact her. He is not doing the AA steps correctly. You are only supposed to come clean to people IF it doesn't hurt them more. You are NEVER supposed to make amends at the expense of your VICTIM.

Send him to my state...Texas...and I will take him for a little ride in my 19 year old Volvo to some place that's dark and off the map. I don't support the death penalty so he would come back alive...but singing high notes. I promise. He would never rape again.

This just makes me...another survivor of sexual abuse....SICK, SICK, SICK, SICK. I am also an alcoholic and have been sober for a long, long time. I did some crazy things under the influence of alcohol but nothing morally unconscionable. I don't buy the "I was drunk" excuse. You have to have an Inner Creepy Rapist to do this in the first place. Sex criminals have the highest recidivism rate of any criminals. I don't buy that he's sorry at all. He just wanted to re-victimize her.
Lee

[dsc]

72. He could have done this right,

Given the circumstances here, where the woman didn't know the full extent of what happened, this man could have made true amends to her. He didn't. Instead he tried to help himself. I think this could have been done right, though, which would have made a much tougher case.

[Madspirit]

76. To Do This Right

He would have turned himself in and maybe told her he was sorry in court.
Lee

[dsc]

90. There was the problem of her maybe not having told her family

I think to have done this properly he would have gone through a third party, described his role in what happened and tell, without names, exactly what happened. And then let her decide about going to court. Just going to court could have been as harmful to her as this was.

[Madspirit]

91. Good Point

I am not sure about whether I totally agree or not because he is a threat to other women but I understand what you say.
Lee

[dsc]

92. In all honesty that is a valid point

but AA isn't concerned with that. I am glad this woman did what she did but I couldn't have blamed her had she responded by just wishing it would go back away. From what I read in the article had he done what I said, she would have just let it go. But even if she hadn't it is what he should have done if he were going to come forward at all.

[Madspirit]

96. Difficult

It's a difficult question indeed. I am not sure what is right when the victim doesn't want to come forward in a crime with this high of a recidivism rate.

You do know, don't you...and I know this from remembering our huge fight on some other thread...that you are a very sweet, sensitive and nice man. Just sayin'...<g>
Lee

[dsc]

97. thanks

I don't recall the fight, but am glad for the praise. I take it you have some experience with recovery. You clearly are working a good program if your posts are any indication. You are both wise and serene.

[philosophie_en_rose]

86. Not many.

[Marie26]

73. The article's title is: "Rape victim seeks long path to justice"

Interesting how the title was changed in the OP to shift the focus to the rapist's redemption & plea for forgiveness. Poor baby.

[Karenina]

95. Ya know, Marie

I was so incensed by the OP's apologist posts that the "changing the subject" detail in the title went SWOOSH right past me!

GOOD CATCH!

Now THAT, if there weren't enough already, is some seriously MAJOR BULLSHIT!!!!

[salin]

102. I didn't catch that...

I did catch that it was posted last night... with only a few responses, and none being what the OP poster wanted - so he started it back up again with "doesn't anyone else think there were two wrongs here" (or something to that effect.) The change in the title is very telling.

[sampsonblk]

117. I accept your apology

I cut and pasted the title and excerpts this morning. If AP changed the title while I was at work, I assure you that wasn't my doing.

[Madspirit]

75. 8th and 9th step

8.) Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9.) Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.


If he was sincere he would NEVER have contacted her. He might have tried to go through a third party but he would NEVER have contacted his VICTIM directly. Not EVER.
Lee

[salin]

103. his sponsor discouraged him from doing so

then later he has a new sponsor and the new sponsor helps him contact her. Point being - he was very clear that this could harm/injur her, and he went ahead anyhow. Why, because his needs superceded hers. Isn't that sorta counter productive to the program?

[Madspirit]

108. Exactly

He wanted to contact her for HIMSELF. Her needs were not even considered.
Lee

[Madspirit]

77. sorry...it came through twice

[Madspirit]

78. Even the title makes me ill

Even the title of the story makes me want to upchuck.

"William Beebe had been haunted by that night for years..."


Poor widdle rapist. HE has been haunted by that night for years?! What gall.
Lee

[philosophie_en_rose]

80. If he was truly remorseful, he would have confessed to the police.

Inflicting himself on his victim again is repulsive. And she has every right to report her experience to the police.

[sandnsea]

82. Accepting responsibility means just that

No half measures. Making amends means accepting the consequences of your actions and in the case of rape, it's prison. That's just the way it is. No reason to feel sorry for this guy. If he is fully in recovery, he would have went to the woman with that attitude in the first place.

[Madspirit]

88. Doing His Steps

Actually, if he was truly sorry and he was doing his steps correctly, first he would have turned himself in and then he would NEVER have approached this woman directly. He would have gone through a third party, maybe said his "sorry" in court.

Personally, I find him entirely insincere, not just mistaken in his method. To be sincere, the first thing he would have done, after this new awakening...*snerk*...would have been to confess his crime to the police. You never directly approach YOUR trauma victim.
Lee

[gollygee]

94. I should have read your response first

yeah!

[sandnsea]

98. I don't think so

He would not need to go to the police. In fact, the Big Book says not to run head long to the police. That's potentially harming people he is responsible to now, not to mention the others involved in the crime. He should not have approached her through a letter though, I agree with you on that. I can't imagine why anybody advised it. He should have contacted a psychologist who could have contacted the woman and asked her if she even wanted to move forward with it, along with offering to pay for any counseling if the woman asked for it. Prison is not necessary for justice, neither is a police record. But this guy didn't really think of the victim anywhere near enough. I don't doubt he wanted to make this right. I just don't think he fully recognized the damage of rape. He wouldn't be unique in that, that's why we have such shitty rape laws to begin with. I also think he wasn't prepared for the possibility of prison which is essential before the amends even takes place. In any event, five years down the road, I think it will all have worked out for the best. He'll have taken full responsibility and she will have justice and maybe a little peace.

[dsc]

100. If I hadn't read the entire article I might agree with you on his intensions

but the article makes clear he was evasive and not cooperative in providing details. He was trying to do the minimum to clear his conscience.

[sandnsea]

106. Not necessarily

I did read the entire article. Making amends does not mean you can destroy others' lives in the process, not even people guilty of crimes. I also don't think it means taking responsibility that might not belong to you in order to make somebody else's life easier. It would seem to me he was attempting to leave the other rapists out of it to begin with, since it wasn't his place to destroy their lives. Then, when it went to court and got cracked open, the prosecutors pressed, as they should, and he cooperated. He didn't need to take 100% responsibility for other peoples' crimes. It's for sure he opened a can of worms and opened it in a very bad way. He's a prime example of why it is recommended that sometimes amends does not mean dumping your grief on to somebody else.

[dsc]

109. My problem was with his unwillingness to write down what he did

and his unwillingness to be specific with her when she asked. She never asked for the names of the other people.

[sandnsea]

113. A couple thoughts

One is that he thought it best to deny the existence of others so as to not even go down that path. The other is that he twisted reality over the years to deal with it himself. Perhaps you'll recall Bob Kerrey and the Vietnam incident. How can it be that they have such drastically different recollections?? That's the nature of the human mind. I don't jump to the conclusion the guy was being intentionally evasive. I've seen too many have to reconcile the truth of a past action with what they convinced themselves of over time. But like I said in my original post, I also don't feel sorry for him. His sponsor should have helped him to become fully prepared to go to prison to set this right.

[Karenina]

110. ABUSING HER AGAIN to do so.

After his whole "pity-me-party song and dance" to her he DENIES what he has put ON THE RECORD in court. HUBRIS. And now some rape apologist sicko presents HIS case to this community in an attempt to FURTHER ABUSE HER for her lack of "Christian forgiveness." What a world we live in. :freak:

[gollygee]

93. If he were in full recovery he would have turned himself over to police

instead of tormenting this woman again.

[sandnsea]

107. That's just not true

I guess an awful lot of people need to go back and read the book again. Don't know what else to say about it.

[FredScuttle]

85. For William Beebe

:nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity::nopity:

I sincerely hope that the psychotic(s) who rapes poor little Willie in prison sends him a letter in 20 years expressing how sorry he is and that a proper Christian forgives his attacker. That would make the cycle complete

[noamnety]

101. you need to check yourself, dude.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3124188#3124220

[Madspirit]

111. Agreed

I would never wish rape on anyone. You don't stop the cycle of abuse by continuing the cycle of abuse.

On the other hand, the poster may simply have been replying from emotion for the victim. I said I would like to castrate the rapist and I really wouldn't. I just want him put somewhere he can't hurt anyone else.
Lee

[havocmom]

89. Un-repentent, Un-recovering drunks ALWAYS find someone to blame for their drinking

Seems this jerk was getting pretty desperate to find a new whipping boy for his own problem, so he turned to an old victim.

Nothing honest about his apology. He was just looking for an easy out. Typical tactic of a drunk. When it fails, they always find some other excuse. He drank because he raped her? :wtf: Then, nasty mad because she didn't kiss his boo-boos and make them all better? Typical of a drunk.

Waste of skin and air.

[woo me with science]

112. Good for her.

I am grateful she engaged with him long enough to identify him to the authorities. It must have been pure hell to have to have contact with him again.

[Karenina]

114. And the OP would like us to support

his view that SHE is somehow being "revengeful" (a BAD, "unchristian" woman) for identifying her attacker to the authorities.

[Breeze54]

120. If he's not in jail, he should be!!

What a fucking asshole! :grr:

[salin]

121. No, according to the OP poster... it is *she* who should be condemned

for not following "Christian principles" of forgiveness and letting him completely off the hook - see SHE is wrong because she seeks revenge... not as in seeking vigilante justice, but revenge by pressing charges. HE however has "paid for his sins" and should be let off scot free - and all of us who don't "get it" are somehow guilty of the same shortcomings because we don't ascribe to complete forgiveness and signing off as "all is well cuz he said he is sorry".

[Breeze54]

125. Oh brother....

:crazy:

What a crock of shit!

He should be tried, convicted and jailed!!!

The OP is tripping!

[Karenina]

128. And maybe playing CYA???

:tinfoilhat::evilgrin::tinfoilhat:

[Swamp Rat]

130. RAPIST William Beebe belongs in PRISON!

He did the crime and now must do the time.

May his victim find peace. O8)

[Bassic]

135. This whole thing is horrible.

God, I can't imagine what this poor woman is going through. :(

And I hope the fuckwads who are sending her hatemail are going straight to Hell.

[DarbyUSMC]

136. When I was 21 and living in Albany, GA

I was raped by a man from Valdosta, GA. I don't know his name and couldn't tell you what he looked like aside from the fact that he looked very young. The punch that swelled my jaw had a more lasting effect than the rape itself. I divorced myself from it and went on about my life. It didn't haunt me. I was always curious about what happened to him so when I got my first computer I wrote a book and in that book I had a storyline about this man. It was how I imagined his life might have gone on and how, in the end, he actually got away with nothing because as we all know by watching our so called president, life finds you out one way or another. I'll never know what actually happened in his life but I trust fate. What goes around, comes around isn't just a spiffy saying. Because I'm older than dirt, I can attest to that being a very true theory. It may take a while and it may seem like people get away with murder, but in fact, they don't. Jail, being found out, being ostracized from family, friends and society as a whole, are all valid outcomes but in the long run ....... in ways not evident to the observer, fate catches up.

[wicket]

138. I am so sorry

:hug:

[bleedingheart]

137. He committed a crime and should serve out his sentence, apology or not

I wonder if his victim had turned out to be a drug addict or perhaps had killed herself over this rape would some people feel differently about him?

I had a number of good friends who were sexually assualted in college and most women have a hard time getting on with their lives. Many universities keep these crimes under the radar because they don't want to hurt their reputation.

I had a friend who was raped by a former boyfriend. She had stopped dating him because he wanted to get into some kinky sex that she did not feel comfortable about. However, she didn't think he was a threat until one night he took her out for a drink "for old times" and then he brutally raped and sodomized her.

She knocked on my door after the attack and I took her to the hospital...I pleaded with her to call the city police and not the campus police. Well...it went to the campus and you know what...the fucker got off ...he had a Naval commission and everyone wanted to see this fine young man off to a great start...so my friend had to suck it up...and all she got was a restraining order. She was never right after that incident.

Another friend was raped by a guy at a party...she quit school after the next term because she became so unbalanced.

Too long have women dealt with rape and the lack of justice...it is time to stop.